Welcome to this week’s edition of the dugcast fae the dughoose with guest Angus MacNeil, the SNP MP for Na h-Eileanan an Iar. Angus is perhaps best known for being a strong proponent of the need for a Plan B in order to secure an independence referendum from Westminster. We chat about lockdown in the islands, Westminster’s plans to end distance working for MPs, and of course that Plan B and the need to keep campaigning for independence and for some political measures which will ensure that Scotland gets a referendum on its own future, and much more besides. Also I swear at him for having more hair than me – although to be fair, having more hair than me isn’t difficult.
We had a slight technical issue about 20 minutes in and our connection was lost, but we managed to get it back. I hope it doesn’t spoil your listening too much. Next week I am going to try recording the podcast via CleanFeed, but have had a couple of issues registering for the site.
A message for Anthony Hartie – you emailed me yesterday however there’s a problem with how you have configured Outlook and the return address is garbled. If you see this could you please email me again but include your email address in the text of your email so I am able to reply. Thank you.
https://soundcloud.com/user-291670852/dugcast-21-05-2020-with-angus-macneil
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Hi Paul, I’m sure that “Independence Live,” “Indy Live Radio” who I have a good relationship with would be happy to help with any live broadcast whether it be TV or radio. Kevin Gibney who runs both sides has developed a new TV linking system from home broadcasting which looks very good indeed and has been put to good use whilst we’re on lockdown. Give me a shout if you need some help, I’ll see any response back to my email … Regards Jim
[…] Wee Ginger Dug Dugcast fae the Dughoose – with Angus MacNeil Welcome to this week’s edition of the dugcast fae the dughoose with guest Angus […]
I agree with the approach Angus describes
It’s all pointing towards the highly important Holyrood election next year. The SNP/SG must declare that election to be a de facto independence referendum. If a majority of pro-indy MSPs are returned they must hold a vote on Scotland’s position in the union with England. They must vote on whether Scotland remains in a union with England or decides to end the union with England. That vote must be held even if Westminster “rules” against it.
At the same time all SNP MPs in Westminster must depart from that britnat cesspit and put all their energies in bolstering the independence movement in Scotland.
The SNP/SG must pull itself out of the vicious, depressing cycle of hesitancy in which it currently founders. On no account should it indulge in another excuse to put the fight for independence on hold. We’ve had enough of those excuses.
Well, whilst I agree with your direction of travel, if ‘The SNP/SG must declare that election to be a de facto independence referendum.’.
Why is that not game, set and match?
The Scottish electorate would have been given a choice, and assuming that they voted for it, well…
Reblogged this on Ramblings of a 50+ Female.
Just spreading this around:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/05/authoritarianism-is-shoddy/
A most interesting and honest exchange there with Angus, a most grounded youngster (relatively), and while I might agree with his horse and cart analogy, the Tories will brook no efficiency in government, that is for lesser mortals…
However, I’d be a tad more optimistic over the real strength of numbers for Indy…
The propaganda onslaught by the Cummings crew during this crisis/truce, together with the catastrophic behaviour of WM, has shocked a great many people who might otherwise have run for cover with a No vote across all age groups.
Perhaps it took the perfect storm of the current Tory mafia, Brexit, Covid and a media singing SNP-Baad in three part harmony during a time of quiet (lockdown) to bring it all into focus, but “Better together” is utterly destroyed by Tory machinations before Indy campaigning has even begun.
Independence by the first available voting mechanism is the way to go, a plebiscite more than likely.
The “Vow” can be fully expected to make a farewell tour, plagues of locusts will descend, the FM will be found to have been abducted by aliens a decade before, Janey Godley will be revealed to be from Bournemouth, and Johnson will find a ditch with a fridge..
These island communties that Angus spoke of are only *allowed* more powers than Scotland because they have no intention of leaving the UK, making the argument crystal clear that Scotland is indeed imprisoned by England for fear of losing Scotland to it’s own path which would be total Independence
Perhaps if Scotland’s people were to be shown clearly in black and white how powerful these English island communities are compared to Scotland they might be shaking their heads a wee bitty more and wondering why an entire Nation (Scotland) has less power and control of itself than the Isle of Man
It is embarrassing
Really enjoyable and interesting talk with Angus. Sound was good too, had no problems with it.
Mandate at next years reverendum absolutely necessary. It is also 7 yrs from 2014 which if challenged in the courts we can show NI has the right to have a border poll every 7 years too. Plan A, B, C &.D.
I agree. There is, even if marginal, benefit of being able to puncture the daft but much used ‘once in a generation’ crap on timing of an IndyRef.
Just in case some have not delved into this, here is an exact quote from the relevant section of the Good Friday Agreement:
“SCHEDULE 1
POLLS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SECTION 1
1. The Secretary of State may by order direct the holding of a poll for the purposes of section 1 on a date specified in the order.
2. Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.
3. The Secretary of State shall not make an order under paragraph 1 earlier than seven years after the holding of a previous poll under this Schedule.”
Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf
Apologies for going O/T but it seems Dominic Cummings may have been a naughty boy when it came to non-essential travel during lockdown. Not only that but, like Prince Charles he appears to have travelled when exhibiting symptoms of Covid-19
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/dominic-cummings-coronavirus-and-lockdown-a-timeline
Calls for his resignation if this is true
The precedent was set in 2014, in that the way to Independence was to have a Yes/No referendum where a majority of one for either side would settle the result. The precedent was also set that in order for that referendum to be lawful it required a Section 30 order to be agreed with Westminster the gave the Scottish government the temporary power to make legislation “about the Union” that was a power reserved to Westminster.
Alex Salmond totally blanked Westminster when it kept bringing up the matter of a Section 30 order, he argued that a Section 30 order wasn’t necessary for Scotland to hold a referendum on Independence.
This was an argument that raged for quite a while in legal circles in Scotland on both sides. Eventually, though Alex Salmond decided just to accept the Westminster offer of a section 30 order. I don’t know why he chose to do that after fighting it for so long but that’s in the past and we need to look to the future.
Back then, after the signing of the Edinburgh Agreement and with the Section 30 order in place the legality of the right of Scotland to hold this referendum and a guarantee of the result being accepted and recognised by Westminster was held up to be the “gold standard” for holding an Independence referendum.
It is this precedent that has resulted in Nicola Sturgeon having no other choice at this stage, than to fully go down the same route of seeking agreement with Westminster. Of course, it was refused and I’m absolutely certain it was expected by the Scottish government that it would be refused.
So, of course, they would have to have a plan B, what is plan B? Well I don’t know, Angus doesn’t know but neither do the Tory party know.
The thing about any plan B is it will have to lead to Independence at the time of enacting it, there is no third chance and no chance of a plan C, so plan B must be absolutely bulletproof is how I see it. It had better be the best of the best plans ever made because failure of plan B is not an option.
There’s one other very important consideration, at least to me, and that is plan B has to have the support of the majority of the voting public, whichever type of plebiscite is settled on. This much is clear if you are to expect International support and also in order to prevent social unrest here in Scotland. A minority of the voting public will not be able to enforce their will against the majority under any circumstances without disturbances and wide unrest.
Coming up with a plan B isn’t easy, making sure it’s a winning plan isn’t easy either but I guess we won’t have that long to wait to find out what plan B is, let’s see.
A section 30 order was never a legal document, it was a one-off agreement between the first minister of Scotland and the prime minister of Westminster to have amicable talks, on that the vote is for independence, between the two countries, nothing more.
Are you maybe thinking of the Edinburgh Agreement signed by Alex Salmond and David Cameron rather than Section 30?
Section 30 which is law, refers to Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998, this section allows for changes to be made to Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act where it states which powers are reserved to Westminster. One of them being “matters relating to the Union” which is where the arguments start.
The Unionist position is that the “Union” is a reserved matter and therefore Holyrood cannot pass law that can have an effect on the Union between Scotland and England. The nationalist position is that referendums are not a referred matter and are therefore devolved and the Scottish parliament can pass a law to have a referendum on any subject it wants to, including Independence.
There’s been a bunfight over this for years, well before 2012 and all the way back to when devolution was first granted and the Scotland Act came into force.
I see on the Internet twitter and the like British Nationaist supporters seeminly angry that Scotlands First Minister isn’t acknowledging enough how much the UK government has *helped* Scotland and I wonder do these people not know that the UK has not *helped* Scotland with anything, they obstructed the flow of PPE to Scotland and Wales amongst other things, but I guess what these British Nationalists are referring to is the financial package which they seem to think is some sort of free bailout handed out to us poor wee Scots instead of what it is, which is a loan that England took out on Scotlands behalf because they refuse to allow Scotland the power to run our own country which would have led to our government making the same loan to ourselves that England did only we’d have done it sooner, making the absolutely positive case as to why Scotland should be like every other country, Independent !!
A bit late but been busy , I am glad I listened and I know at the heart of the SNP there are like minded folk that are not prepared to sit quietly and just let events happen without question ,
Regular contributors might have the impression I am against Nicola Sturgeon nothing could be further from the truth , but I do believe she has been distracted by those around her and has lost her way , I believe a lot at the top are scared ,scared of making a mistake and losing a grip on government , they don’t have confidence in themselves because they don’t have confidence in Scottish people to back them , we are never going to see a 60% approval rating for Independence but just clinging on to power in case you f/k it up can’t continue , going round in circles just makes you dizzy and fighting breaks out amongst those fed up with no progress being made , the party will eat its self alive and we will all become exhausted arguing with each other rather than rather than sticking to task Independence , yeh the word that can’t be uttered by some sections in the SNP .
If you are not in power then you have no chance of changing anything.
The small group of agitators & some from an even smaller extreme group (aided by agent provocateurs) who undermine the First Minister and the SNP don’t care.
If you want change then the snp is the only deal in town.
The WoS bloggers have missed the boat for a 3rd /4th Pretendy Independence Party and are angry about it. Still they are angry about most things judging by their infighting. The Independence movement continues on with our eye on the election next year. By then we should be over 52% Indy and can do better than ever before.
Some forget we need to persuade more undecideds to win. We have already decided how we will vote.
It’s an angry site selling angry air to angry people looking for someone to blame because they’re angry about something else
Isn’t that what UKIP was, Scotland didn’t like that either
Support for SNP/Independence increasing, A pandemic declining. Better governance.
Vote Tory/unionist die younger. The Tories are killing off their supporters. They will be voted out. An utter shambles. The next Brexit mess. It will all end in tears, again. Useless incompetence.
Cumming another cunning lying Tory. In it for the money. Wasting public monies like there is no tomorrow. Cutting NHS funding. A complete and utter shambles. Cut Education £6Billion a year.
Expecting the schools to return prematurely. The.Tory mess. Eton goes back in September. The Tory boys not very bright despite their education paid by public funding. Then charging others £9000 a year. Ignorant inconsideration. Contracts going to their mates without scrutiny. Wasting £Billions.
It is mind logging to think that folk with covid would think travelling “ north “ is alright. Cummings said (despite having covid) it was for child care reasons, but believes it is alright to infect folk on his travels? Surely 1 of his parents could travel south- if they didn’t have covid. I don’t know their ages but maybe they should have been self isolating so childcare isn’t appropriate.
Millionaire businessmen turn up further north to Scotland — all justified, HRH Prince also with covid fly here with his wife- both tested once they arrive in Scotland, some others end up in Skye from NZ and via the USA. Selfish. Police say naughty, naughty please don’t do it again but don’t send them back. A group of youths more likely to be fined should they congregate.
As always the wealthy and powerful escape “Scot free” . A 2nd wave is likely as we move to Winter later in the year. Both the U.K. and Scots Government need to firm up their laws re those who breach the laws.
Seen the report from david davis?
He says now that people from Greece are low risk to the uk and should be allowed into englandland.
He goes further and says people from Yorkshire are a high risk to london and should be in quarantine,not allowed to travel.
Pity he didn’t say that 9 weeks ago when londoners were the high risk carriers to the rest ofus up north.
I’m with Angus on plan B. People are becoming impatient now and want to campaign for more than hold steady, its coming. We need independence now more than ever and Covid 19 has proved that. I couldn’t attend the Aberdeen conference but it is disgraceful that any delegate in an independence supporting party should be booed for raising it at the podium.
I enjoyed listening to the Dugcast and my opinion is we should move to having a Referendum as soon as possible once the Virus situation is normalised. If we wait until the next Holyrood elections it will be too late. Johnson and his cronies will never give us a Referendum. Start the ball rolling ASAP and dont wait any longer.
Enjoyed the Dugcast. And agree about the inertia in the SNP.
However things are happening outwith the SNP regarding a plan B.
The Forward as One court case is moving forward. It is the one positive thing that has been going on regarding actual progress towards independence which is not reliant on the Scottish government. Everyone who wants a resolution on the question of the legality or otherwise of the UK government position regarding a referendum should be interested. Certainly worth “talking up”. More details here:
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/the-scottish-people-vs-the-uk/
And a petition to sign here:
https://www.change.org/p/the-right-honourablelords-of-council-and-session-section-30-case?recruiter=410375992&recruited_by_id=038d1540-7c25-11e5-9a00-7b4e5710cefb&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=petition_dashboard
The people support the SNP policies. Not liars. People will have to vote for it . Vote the unionists out. Polls predicted for the Holyrood elections. SNP MSP 70. In the flawed voting system. Under a year away and at the end of the pandemic.
The Tories will be voted out. The Tory mess and shambles. Unbelievable. Johnston -3.
I enjoyed the dugcast thank you Paul.
Angus is a refreshing voice. It was interesting how he came to see the obvious need for independence and how, once he did, everything he learned from then on simply made it even more obvious. That is the journey increasing numbers of Scots are on. Once there is understanding the clock can’t be turned back.
Our opponents want us to fret and be upset because we can’t switch off their threatening, wailing and gnashing of teeth. It’s a pity that a small number of highly strung individuals in the wider movement have apparently been spooked by it for some time and have been encouraged by our opponents to join in the wailing. A pity but ultimately not consequential.
The answer to how precisely we take back our independence will become clear when a clear majority of Scots want it. There must be a clear majority demand that the time has come. It doesn’t need to be a huge majority but it does need to be clear and consistent over a period of time. That is the only way we can legitimately and confidently return to being an independent country. The momentum is in the right direction and it will not be reversed.
We have to be patient. The anxiety of our opponents is keeping independence on the daily agenda. It does us no harm to have a public discussion of the technicalities of declaring independence because the issues around the “right” of the Brits to control our choices, in this and all else, are exactly why we need to be independent. But knocking lumps out of each other in the process will just slow our progress so let’s be a bit calm about it.
For anyone interested here’s more info on Section 30.
Section 30(2)
“Her majesty may by Order in Council make any modifications of Schedule 4 or 5 which She considers necessary or expedient.”
The “Order in Council” is also law which has to be approved in both Holyrood and Westminster before being approved by the Queen. Here’s the preamble to it.
This Order is made by Her Majesty in Council in exercise of the powers conferred upon Her by section 30(2) and (4) and 113(4)(a) of the Scotland Act 1998(a).
In accordance with section 115 of, and paragraphs 1 and 2 of Schedule 7 to, that Act(b), a draft of this Order has been—
(a) laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament; and
(b) laid before and approved by a resolution of the Scottish Parliament.
Here is the explanatory note to the “Order in Council” which you can find here.
Click to access uksi_20130242_en.pdf
This Order modifies Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 (c.46). Schedule 5 defines reserved matters (matters which are outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament) for the purposes of that Act. The Order provides an exception to the reservation of the Constitution under paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 5 so that a referendum on the independence of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom is not a reserved matter if certain requirements are met.
The Order modifies the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (c.41) to apply certain provisions relating to referendum campaign broadcasts and the sending of referendum addresses free of charge. The Order also makes consequential modifications to references to referendum campaign broadcasts, and to section 200A of the Representation of the People Act 1983 (c.2).
I didn’t know links to pdf files would embed. I do now.
I love the detail of how the UK government sets out documents including the name and role of the monarchy in a Union that’s supposed to be a democracy, which is it a Monarchy or a democracy, it always makes me chuckle at the notion that people still believe that a Monarchy and a democracy can exist simoultaneously when of course in reality the Monarchy has no legal authority or power over anything constitutional or legal, how could it, because if that were so we’d still be living in a different kind of dictatorship that the Westminster government pretend that we are
The use of the name and role of the Monarchy is a window dressing pretence, a tourist attraction, a stick of Blackpool rock on a picture postcard if you will, it’s meaningless, so how can it be included within legal text, the UK government in no way represents the Monarchy or vice versa
I’ve always wondered why this has never been legally challenged as the fraud it is, the UK government asserts the authority of the Monarchy when my understanding in law is that the Monarchy has no authority so to use our old Scots words *It’s all pish* so take it to court debunk it and let’s get on with democracy
We have a country, we have a constituted parliament, we are the people of these things, so if we want it our parliament must make it so
Somewhere buried in Scots law it says if the current Monarch is not doing his/her job ( in Scotland the title of Queen of Scots is a job description) he/she may be replaced by another of our choosing, and if that’s the case then we crown Jeanie McFadyen from the chip shop as Queen of Scots and nullify the UKs stupid attempts at pulling the wool over everybody’s ayes with their fake Monarchy drivel
Throughout the world there are several countries who have Monarchies but none of those populations believe they have authority over them or constitutional power, and if they did those people of those countries would revolt demanding proper democracy, what the UK does is tell you that politicians can be voted in or out depending on how we feel about them, but the Monarchy can’t, yet still pretend they have authority, eh that’s dictatorship is it not, and not constitutional
Take it to court Joanna Cherry and upset the shit out of them, they’ll hand over all the powers we require to Scotlands parliament then and with their lip tremblin rather than have to face the idea of their Monarchial charade being legally attacked and plastered all over the media, on the hour 24/7
Excellent comment Dr.Jim…
Interesting discussion and especially the part about WW2 and how politics did not stop even then, and that the unionists ( Britnats) have not stopped politics in fact they are even making political hay out of the CV-19 situation. They do though expect the SNP and their members to junk any politics during the CV-19 crisis, and my do the Britnats enjoy the compliance of their media en masse to make sure Nicola Sturgeon cannot even mention the word, ‘independence’.
These Tories are not accountable, they expect everyone else to be accountable to them though! They do not govern, they rule, hence Brexit! They don’t do negotiation, they do bullying. Maybe as with those who work in the NHS, ‘do no harm’ should be written into the politicians’ job contract, daft idea I know, but they do take a princely sum from the public purse, even to be ‘cruel’ to the public who pay them, and everyone pays tax, if no income you still pay VAT even on your utility bills for gods sake. A luxury item obviously, though that VAT on fuel bills was at 17.5% when Thatcher was in power, G.Brown took it down to 5%, he didn’t scrap it though did he. Disgraceful.
Just one thing, Angus says that he ‘gets on with them’ meaning Rees Mogg and the rest? Meanwhile ‘begging them not to be cruel to people’ ie please stop sanctioning and starving the poorest, most vulnerable people in society, I presume.
Not sure I could be so forgiving. These Tories would shake an SNP MP’s hand and have a sword behind their backs to chop off the other, look at what their woman said in the commons, for all to see and hear, she said ‘and Cromwell crushing the Scots and sending them to the colonies’, at howls of laughter from the Tory troughers sitting on the benches behind her. Ha ha ha, how hilarious eh, not! Disgusting.
These people ARE cruel and they enjoy it, and take a huge wage from the public purse to boot, to actually put the boot in! These people are hunters, they’d hunt anyone down as they have done in the past, to get what they bloody well want. They go in for the kill, like rabid dogs. As has been pointed out, they ‘hate’ the SNP MP’s! So if I were having to mix with these troughers for my job, I would stop at being vaguely civil where necessary, and as part of being in a professional job, it would go no further than that. Why give them the time of day, get angry Angus, and our SNP MP’s need to get very angry at the troughing lying scheming Tories, certainly not befriend them.
Hold their feet to the fire even more than you do Angus, before they get their real big jackboots on and kick Scotland down until there are only bare bones left.