A tale of two rallies

There were two political rallies in Scotland on Saturday. There was a pro-independence rally in Dundee which attracted 16,000 participants and was one of the biggest demonstrations that the city had ever seen. Then there was a rally in Edinburgh calling for a second EU referendum, which attracted a few hundred people, fewer than are attending some of the Festival events currently going on in the city. Guess which one of them was reported more prominently in the media?

The Guardian carried a report about the Edinburgh event on its front page. The Dundee rally wasn’t even mentioned. In yesterday’s Herald the Edinburgh event was the leading story on the paper’s website for some time, it took until Sunday for the Dundee rally to get a mention, and then it came below a story about that favourite trope of the Labour party, problems with the NHS. But we did get an opinion piece from Iain McWhirter claiming that hopes of an Indyref2 are fading, which must come as a surprise to just about every SNP member I’ve ever met. The Scotsman, which calls itself “the paper which knows Scotland”, carried a story about the Edinburgh rally focussing on former Lib Dem leader Menzies Campbell’s call on the SNP to back a second EU referendum. I couldn’t find any coverage of the Dundee rally on the Scotsman’s website . Although to be fair the paper’s website is such a mess of adverts and automatically loading videos that it’s pretty difficult to find anything on it at all.

There’s a deep hypocrisy that runs through the anti-independence Scottish media and many prominent opponents of independence. They’re determined to build political pressure to bring about a second referendum on the EU, while at the same time they are resolute, indeed staunch, in their opposition to a second referendum on Scottish independence. It seems that that once in a generation thing only applies selectively. Menzies Campbell campaigns for a second EU referendum while refusing to countenance a second Scottish independence referendum and is seemingly blind to the hypocrisy. But then he’s a Lib Dem, and hypocrisy is very much their thing. Just ask any student or voters in Orkney and Shetland.

As a supporter of a second Scottish independence referendum it would of course be hypocritical not to support a second referendum on EU membership. Both those referendums were won by campaigns which based their pitch on claims which were never going to be realised, and all too often on outright lies. In both cases, the electorate was sold a pup. If this was a commercial transaction, we could sue under the Trades Descriptions Act.

Better Together promised that if Scotland voted No then it would remain a part of the EU, that Scotland would be an equal partner in a family of nations, that devolution would be strengthened and entrenched and that no changes would be made to the devolution settlement without the express consent of the Scottish Parliament. We were promised a bonanza of jobs and investment. None of that turned out to be true.  The campaign was won with the BBC being turned into the propaganda arm of the British state, and an overwhelmingly anti-independence media which systematically sidelined pro-independence arguments.  There was no level playing field.

The Leave campaigns promised that the UK could leave the EU and strike the easiest deal in the history of deals, that leaving the EU would unleash millions a week to spend on the NHS, that British citizens, companies, goods, and services could continue to enjoy the same ease of access to the EU that they do with the UK a member of the EU. None of that turned out to be true.  The campaign was won by dark money and a leave campaign which broke electoral law.  There was no level playing field.

So yes, of course there ought to be a second EU referendum, and there ought to be a second Scottish independence referendum too. Democracy is not an event, it’s an ongoing process. Democracy is like a growing living tree. It needs to flourish. It needs to spread its roots. It needs to grow. Opponents of revisiting those votes want to cut down the tree and spray it in varnish, then tell us to stop complaining because we’ve still got a tree.

However as an independence supporter, I am not going to get behind a UK wide campaign for a second EU referendum, not until such time as that campaign recognises that what is sauce for the British goose is sauce for the Scottish gander. As supporters of Scottish independence we can offer all our sympathies and good wishes to those campaiging for a second EU referendum. But that doesn’t mean that we should give up on our own campaign in order to support theirs, certainly not while our support doesn’t come with a quid pro quo from the People’s Vote campaign, and an explicit recognition and promise from them that the question of Scottish independence needs to be revisited too.

Until that happens, and there’s no sign that it’s going to, I’m going to continue to concentrate my energies and efforts on ensuring that Scotland gets a Scottish vote on Scottish terms. There is no political advantage for Scottish independence supporters to defer our demands and political goals, and to subsume them in a UK wide campaign which will not answer our own demands. Yet again, Scotland is subject to demands from the English left and liberals to subordinate Scotland’s interests to those of England. We’ve seen where that one leads.

However what makes it worse is that there is not the slightest recognition from those leading the UK wide People’s Vote campaign that Scotland voted to remain in the UK in 2014 under false premises. It’s not simply that there are no apologies from them, it’s that there isn’t even the vaguest recognition from them that there is anything to apologise for. Instead we get the arrogant assumption from the leading lights of Britishness that the sole political purpose of Scotland is to rescue England from its own mistakes, that the job of Scotland is to clean up England’s political mess, and to do so without any recognition from that same British political establishment of Scotland’s needs or concerns.  If we do get behind their EU referendum and bring about the result that they want, those same people who campaigned against Scottish independence in 2014 will just go back to telling us that we need to vote No or we’re out of the EU.  Well frankly, screw that.

However it’s also a practical question of political realities. The reality is that it’s far more productive for supporters of Scottish independence to revisit the question of EU membership via an independence referendum. That means that Scotland can decide for itself whether it wishes to remain a part of the EU, and if it’s going to leave, on what terms, or if it’s going to be a member, then on what terms. There is a majority in the Scottish Parliament for an independence referendum, which means that the political will exists in order to bring one about. There’s a mass grassroots movement with the support of many thousands and local groups in every corner of the country which exists to campaign in it when it does come about.  A yes vote in that referendum will lead to a fundamental restructuring and realignment of Scottish politics.

That’s not the case with a second EU referendum. Even in Edinburgh, in the most pro-EU city in the entire UK, even with speakers who have UK-wide prominence in the media, the pro-EU rally struggled to attract more than a few hundred people. There’s no grassroots mass membership campaign on the ground to campaign in any vote that comes about. The leaderships of both the Conservatives and Labour remain implaccably opposed to another EU referendum. Even if a referendum did take place it’s not going to solve the divisions over Europe which plague British politics.  It will still be the same old story.

Campaigning for a second EU referendum may very well be the political equivalent of banging one’s head off a brick wall. On the other hand, campaigning for a second Scottish independence referendum is chapping on an unlocked door, a door which opens to a very different and better country.

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48 comments on “A tale of two rallies

  1. […] Wee Ginger Dug A tale of two rallies There were two political rallies in Scotland on Saturday. There was a pro-independence […]

  2. Douglas says:

    A second EU referendum is not going to happen -no one with political power wants it. If by some strange sequence of events it does happen, I’d vote to remain in the EU but it’s not worth wasting energy trying to make an EU vote happen.

  3. SandyW says:

    Correct, Paul. It didn’t even occur to them that there was anything to be contrite over or apologise for. It didn’t even occur to them that we were anything other than North Britain that should fall in line with them because we don’t want Brexit either.

    When it was pointed out that many of us felt differently, for good reasons, they jumped straight for the ‘vile cybernat abuse’ klaxon. Hell mend them and their arrogance.

  4. Robert Kerr says:

    Yesterday was Wallace Day and the guid fowk o’ Lanark held the 24th Annual March and Wreath Laying Ceremony to commemorate the execution for “treason” on 23rd August in the Year of Grace 1305 of William Wallace.

    Lest we forget! It all started in Lanark!

    We assembled outside the site of his house and listened to the Annual Guardian’s Address given this time by Phillipa Whitford MP and surgeon of note.

    Her SNP presence was complimented by the local MP. MSP. and two councillors.

    Afterwards in Greyfriars church hall there was hospitality and a presence for Gaelic Initiative in Clydesdale. Lessons to be held soon in Lanark.

    An English sounding gentleman at the door advised me that Gaelic is a Political Weapon.

  5. carolclark1 says:

    I’m with you Paul. I do not want another EU ref. Scotland voted by 62% to remain in the EU, and we were promptly ignored.England , or more exactly, The Tories dug this massive hole for themselves. What started as a Tory bun fight, spilled over into to a horrendous nightmare that no one knows how to solve.

    Let the luvvies go to NE England where the voted massively to leave and lecturer and patronise them. Be interesting to see how far it gets them

    Scotland does indeed only need one more ref, only it’s not the one that the British Nationalists are telling us to get behind.

  6. susan says:

    Can’t believe they think we have such short memories… Go to hell the lot of them.

  7. Macart says:

    Posted on this last thread and I’ve only become angrier since. I was a Guardian reader for many years, some folk might remember I also posted there reasonably often. A few years back I naivley thought that if anyone would support what we were trying to achieve in Scotland, then England’s Liberal left would.

    I could not have been more wrong. Now? Now we have some concerned day trippers coming up to preach to the masses of North Britainshire on the evils of something we warned them about four years ago.Warned them till we lost our voices. Lack of democracy, Tory power grabs, mahoosively flawed and biased electoral systems, news media etc, etc and etcetera. Just keep adding them, mkay?

    A ‘people’s vote’.

    A people’s vote, but only the one we think you should have sounds more appropriate.

    Yesterday wasn’t about the people, not in Scotland. You’d have to be a gold standard idiot not to realise that Scotland voted comprehensively to remain. It was about getting Scotland’s people to pressurize Scotland’s party of government to get behind yet another UK vote. An unlikely one at that and one where ultimately we’ll be ignored in the aftermath. Again!

    Oh, and if any such ballot did take place? And if England and Wales choose a pro Brexit stance once again? What then? Do we warrant an apology after that?

    As I’ve said before. It seems to me that only one ballot is required in Scotland. One ballot, one YES vote and two major problems get solved.

    Think about it.

    • James McIntosh says:

      Remember you, grousebeater and others on the Guardian back in 2014 pleading our democratic case and receiving very little support and a great deal of shut it sweaty for our efforts .

      Pulitzer for Snowden, Indy for us shouted down by Bangor Stu and some Slovenian cut n paste bint time n time again. Democracy doesn’t exist in their colonialist mindset unless it’s happening overseas and their liberal soapbox can be dusted down and their faux indignation aired.

      Was in Spain for 28 years but back in Scotland now. Heading to Dunfermline on 1st Sept and looking forward to joining the yes movement in person at last. Volunteered for newly opening KIRKCALDY yes hub too. toeupthehole was my guardian name btw 😉

      • Macart says:

        Heh. Missionary work. Go figure. 🙂

        Haven’t picked up a copy in over four years. No intention of picking one up ever again.

        ‘Comment is free, but the facts are sacred’, sounded a bit hollow both during and after indyref. As for the turn their btl took between moderation policy (or lack thereof) and the influx of some right raging Britnats? Enough became more than enough.

        I do miss a lot of folks from beneath the line though. How and ever, I don’t regret leaving the title behind.

  8. Ealasaid says:

    Would that be the Menzies Campbell that has written us a brand new Treaty of Union, which I have never seen posted anywhere, but I am sure tries to remove our sovereignty and subjugates us to English rule. Why else would we need a new “up-to-date” Treaty of Union?

    We have already voted to stay in the EU by 62%, which was a very clear vote. Why should we need to vote again when they have not even included, consulted or even informed us of negotiations with the EU. As you say Paul, far better to revisit and clarify any irregularities in the Independence vote.

  9. davidbsb says:

    Paul, I ordinarily find nothing but fact and indeed joy on your posts.

    However there is a very glaring reason why the SNP cannot support this EU vote initiative. Its premise is flawed.

    They are not asking for the original vote to be re-run, on the obvious basis that it was won by cheating, voter’s roll rigging and dis-information. Rather, they are asking for the public to ratify the outcome of the negotiations concluded upon the basis of that original vote.

    That is a subtle but important point. If we support that premise we openly invite the Unionist side to demand that they be given a final “peoples say” on any deal negotiated post a successful Scottish referendum. That’s not on. We seek to run a second referendum because we were clearly lied to. Nothing promised was delivered – at all actually. And when we win this the next time, we are not interested in a best of three.

    In order for people like me ( an ordinary member ) to countenance supporting a re-run of the EU vote, then that has to be upon the premise that the original one was null and void, because of the manner it was won. That is consistent with our demand a rerun of 2014.

    • I agree with that. Leave found to have broken Electoral Law, but we should just act as voting fodder for something England has messed up from the campaign, and the last two years?

      Why don’t they move to have the criminals dealt with?

      You can just imagine the discussion. “Oh, I know, the Scots voted Remain, so let’s get up there, and tell them they have to put their shoulder to the wheel, to get England sorted out”

      • Illy says:

        Oh yeah, I would support a re-run of the EU ref on several conditions:

        1) It’s explicitly stated that it’s due to the previous campaign having been won by lies and cheating.

        2) The liers and cheats are arrested and found guilty of treason, and punished to the full extent of the law, no matter who they might be. And people found lying and cheating in politics are treated that way as a matter of procedure from now on.

        3) It is acknowledged that the 2014 ref was also won by lieing and cheating, so will also be getting a fair rerun, and the liers and cheats being treated the same as the liers and cheats of the 2016 ref.

        I don’t expect those conditions would ever be met, as it would result in the entire government and more than half the Commons, and probably most of the Lords being thrown in jail for life (I assume that we don’t still have the death penalty for treason).

    • Tol says:


      I feel the same indignation as you to the deceits of “Better Together”. However, I fear you may be weakening the SNP’s case for this referendum by the line that “…We seek to run a second referendum because we were clearly lied to. Nothing promised was delivered …”.

      YES may have a moral case to prosecute on the lies…it is a risky strategy and diverts from a stronger case that the Union is no longer suitable for Scotland…in fact it is now toxic.

      The SNP election mandate is very specific:

      IF there was a material change
      of circumstance….such as Scotland
      being taken out of the EU against our will…
      Scotland reserves the right to hold another referendum

      The current reality facing Scotland is a world away from 2014, and constitutionally the risks to Scotland and its sovereignty are now emerging as an exponentially greater than any previous issue (since the Act of Union).

      Scotland has a right to re-question its participation in the Union because the union changed …regardless of any previous vote.

      • Tol says:

        2018 is not a re-run of 2014.

        – The threats now are about saving Scotland’s very sovereignty from a rampant Westminster.
        – 2014 indyref did not come with that same explicit risk.

        Why give “Better Together” any sniff at labelling YES as just wanting a re-run…Never give your opponents the ability to use your messages against you. The only real relevance of the 2014 lies and failure to deliver promises is that YES now has the weapon that any promises of the Neo-Better Togetherites are worthless. In fact their own past shows them for what they are…gaslighters and snake oil salesmen .

        YES would be better served by keeping to the rapier like strongest elements of their new found truth. Scotland should dissolve the union as it is now broken.

  10. crabbitgits says:

    I can tell you all this, if there happens to be another vote, either on EU membership or ratification of any proposed deal, I for one, will not be taking part. I’ve already voted.

    • crabbitgits says:

      ………and voted to stay in EU!

      • Jan Cowan says:

        I agree. Indyref2 is all we need.

      • Peter says:

        If you DONT vote then your are surrendering to the powers who will claim that you didn’t want whatever they are pushing 😦
        “Not voting is NOT an act of defiance or rebellion, it is one of surrender.”
        ( blatantly stolen from an American PBS short on voting rights in the USA )

  11. kurikat says:

    England got themselves into this mess, it is up to them to do something about it. OUR 62% remain vote was IGNORED, so I now choose to ignore their need for that 62% to help them out..

  12. alanm says:

    “The Guardian carried a report about the Edinburgh event on its front page. The Dundee rally wasn’t even mentioned”

    Ah yes, The Guardian that great defender of liberty and democracy. Just try linking to “Wings Over Scotland” when you post a comment on one of its articles and see how quickly your words disappear. All in the name of maintaining “community standards” you understand.

  13. The BBC did say there was a “Protest March” disrupting traffic in Dundee. Oh well.

    • Les Bremner says:

      I was privileged to be a steward on the march. As such, I was watching the traffic conditions. There were five occasions where I saw a car held up at a junction, waiting for the people to pass.

      Yes, there was disruption for five cars.

      Also, it was not a protest, it was a good natured collection of people who believed in a positive change for the better.

      • I think it was to avoid mentioning the Indy word, perhaps a new tactic. Mind you I have long suspected the leanings of the particular announcer.

        • Illy says:

          I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it’s also to let people draw the wrong conclusion that it’s a BREXIT protest march, supporting a second EU ref.

  14. northbritain says:

    Scotland voted convincingly to Remain. The highest percentage in the UK; every council area in Scotland voted to Remain; and polling shows the Remain vote in Scotland since 2016 has only increased.

    Scotland’s voice was not heard in 2016 or since.

    The SNP asked for a quadruple lock on Brexit – this was refused.

    And yet we’re asked to support a 2nd EUref vote on the off-chance that England has come to its senses?

    I support staying in the EU. I also support Scotland’s right to choose – and this should not be overturned.

    Unless the 2nd EUref guarantees a quadruple lock – to ensure that the voice of Scotland is protected – I don’t think many independence supporters will be taken in by this.

    We have a way out of this mess and it is indyref2.

    England needs to sort out its own shit. The Union is over.

    • wm says:

      Englands vote to leave, put us in the shite, let them vote themselves on another EUref, the rest of us don’t count anyway.While they are voting we can concentrate on winning indyref 2 and freeing ourselves from their so called union.

  15. Daisy Walker says:

    Let England and Wales have a re run of EU Ref if they want to. And why not, no reason they can’t have an individual Referendum, is there?

    Which bit of the Scottish 62% vote to Remain did they not understand the first time, as they were deliberately ignoring it and our requests for a seat at the negotiating table. And what further powers will they seek to grab from Scotland’s devolved parliament while they’re at it.

    Saw an interesting tweet from mrMalkie? re those organising/financing the ‘people’s vote’ heavily laced with ‘New Labour’ familiar old faces and LibDems aplenty. Mandelson’s name cropped up.

    I think its all just a ploy to waste our time and energy (don’t think there’s the time for it in any event) but as the Brexshit bad news fills the TV pages in the months to come, Scotland will be the new whipping boy for failing to assist.

    Then when the food shelves are empty, riots in England, they’ll move the army into Scotland, and do a quiet take over.

    No wonder the Brit Nat Lefties are getting tetchie – a bad conscience will do that to you.

    Best wishes to all.

  16. I think this is just more evidence of Westminster and their media losing touch with Scotland. It’s happened like this -for failed regimes- again and again. Wee Ginger Dog is an important part of it: We have our own momentum now- with such talent leading the way – writers, film makers, musicians…… we are leaving Westminster media behind… in the dark…

  17. Let England hold a second EU Referendum if it chooses – we in Scotland have made our choice and made that choice QUITE clear to Westminster. It is not our role to bail out our neighbours south of the border!

  18. manandboy says:

    I fear that hindsight will reveal that mixing Scottish Independence with Brexit in the political discourse of these times, will prove to have been a mistake.
    Consider the substantial number of Yes voters who apparently will not vote for Independence if it is to then lead to membership of the EU. This an insane situation, if true.
    In 2014, Independence was a stand-alone issue, as arguably it should be. But now Independence is understood as primarily a solution to Brexit for Scotland.
    Or to put it simply: Independence can be Scotland’s own flagship made in Scotland; or it can be merely a lifeboat launched from a sinking English Tory cruise liner.
    I submit that the second option is very largely unsatisfactory.
    Abandon Brexit by all means but without dragging Independence into it.

  19. Things designed to reduce Scotland to colony status :- Part One.
    A lad called Dan Walker co-hosts the 3 1/4 hours of English News from BBC TV Breakfast.
    He has got into the habit, quite deliberately of announcing at 3 minutes tot he hour and half hour that they are breaking for News Where You Are, and that the ‘National’ news will follow when on the hour and half hour.
    He does it quite deliberately, none of the others presenters do it.
    Well, Mr Walker, at 6:57 am this morning I tuned in to ‘National’ news where I am, Scotland, which I’m sure welsh and N Ireland viewers did.
    Yet again we have it rubbed in our faces.
    I live for the day when we are free of this arrogant Imperial guff.
    Mr Walker, Scotland is a nation. England is a nation.
    Soon, you will be an isolated little bit of rock off the coast of Europe.
    Now that will be ‘national’ news where you are.

  20. markrussell20085017 says:

    Ah well, the game’s a bogey – Jezza is on his way with a bag o’ soor plooms for the troops and bag o’ empty promises for everyone else. Four days though…..


    • Mark. he’s coming up for a four day holiday in Scotland.
      He will meet no one but the stage managed ‘throngs’ of Militant Momentums and a battery of MSM snappers and obedient hacks.
      I dare him to go walk about in Argyll Street, or do a Clunking Fist and arrange a rally at Clydebank Town Hall. Be assured I’ll be there.
      Be prepared for SNP BAD wall to wall nonsense, with that Dick ‘The Scarf’ Leonard announcing to the English Dead Tree Scrolls and Glenn Campbell that Scotland is Shite and it’s all the SNP’s fault.
      The Blue Tories will get nary a mention.

      It is that De’il’s Handmaiden Nocola Sturgeon’s fault.

      If only Leonard was FM, Iain Gray running Education, James Kelly running Sport and Recreation, and Jackie Baillie as Finance Minister, then Scotland would be well on its way to becoming the Soviet Socialist Republic of Scotia.
      Have they set up photo ops in a hospital corridor with Jezza chatting to a pensioner attached to a saline drip on a gurney?
      Will he be visiting a Primary school where the dining room staff are boiling down old jotters to mix in with the poor kids’ gruel to give it a bit of body?
      Will the Unison /Unite/EIS Red Tory ‘leaders’ be on hand to lay palm fronds at his feet as he rides up Princes Street on his ass in triumph?
      WE are about to get the BBC Distorting Scotland Corbyn treatment for a whole feckin’ week..
      Get the popcorn out.

  21. deelsdugs says:

    Excellent reasoning Paul. But we know that TM is a wily auld crone and wants to be the saviour, spitting on anyone who stands in her quest for her own overinflated empirical ego.
    Libdems, aye well, I’m a UHI student. The UHI depends on much needed finance from the EU. What’s gonna happen there? Many of the lecturers, students and other staff are from englandshire (no offence to them) and live in Orkney, Shetland and Caithness, with Thurso having its retired Lord and Lady who involve themselves in community projects, physically and with donations (most likely when it suits) and are quite popular. I believe he was also a MSP. Can’t remember his name. My friend thought he was SNP. I had to remind her that no SNP politician or party member is liable to associate themselves with a ‘Lordship’. But, apparently, he’s very nice. So, there we are. I’m sure he is. And he’s LibDem by the way.

  22. susan says:

    Corbyn has nothing to offer Scotland

  23. Macart says:

    Oh for the love of….


    You know, I wanted to cut Mr Corbyn some slack when he first became leader of Labour. He talked a good game tbf. How and ever, EVERY time he has come to Scotland, it has been to talk down to the people. To practice politics UK style and basically mislead or misrepresent.

    Much like our weekend day trippers. No contrition. No remorse. No apology for past decisions or actions which have proven catastrophic for the population. No attempt at olive branches offered to the population in general or the, not insubstantial, YES movement in particular. No hand held out to the SNP government to work through consensus in both parliaments.

    Just exactly the same adversarial, tribal horseshit that has brought us all to where we are today repeated ad nauseam. The same tired old SNP bad. Scottish parly has the pooowwwwwerrrrs to mitigate, but doesn’t do so, or enough, or badgers because… they’re not LABOUR. RIGHT!?!

    Weary of it and them, not necessarily in that order. Most folk are aware of the source of the problem and he is a willing part of it.

    • Illy says:

      “which Labour would have to regain from the SNP if it were to win another snap election.”

      First lie spotted.

      “Curtice said: “Labour is alive and kicking in Scotland [but] it still has a hell of a long way to go, to get back to anything like the level of support it had 10 years ago.””

      You mean before people realised that the SNP had an actual chance at winning?

      “They also believe the recent controversy over Corbyn’s stance on Israel has damaged Scottish Labour support in key constituencies.”

      I missed this. Did Corbyn call Israel a crusader state?

      “The socialist message was lost in the constitutional battles and we’ve had to work hard to be heard again.”

      No, the “socialist message” was buried at a crossroads with a stake through its heart and a lemon in its mouth by Blair.

      “We know what we’re for”

      This week? Or is it “anything but the SNP”?

      • Macart says:

        “The socialist message was lost in the constitutional battles and we’ve had to work hard to be heard again.”

        This one especially is idiotic beyond the pale and is pretty much a complete mis-statement of the facts.

        The ‘constitutional battles’ did exactly the opposite. They brought the issues of social justice, the progressive society, democratic and constitutional rights to fore. Labour just didn’t like it. They didn’t like the democratic deficit and the actuality of Scotland’s ‘partnership’ in Westminster being brought to the fore. They didn’t like having the galactic flaws in devolution and Scotland’s settlement exposed. They didn’t like their record of government and their pledges on reform of Westminster being questioned t’boot. They certainly didn’t appreciate having their airbrushed version of historical narrative challenged or their partnerships (plural) with the Conservatives exposed.

        ‘Lost in constitutional battles’? No. They simply didn’t appreciate having their dirty linen aired.

        And d’you know what? I’d still have forgiven (if not forgotten) had just once, they held up their hands and apologised unreservedly. Actually apologised and made the effort to change and work with rather than against, because…opposition and…reasons. Or had Corbyn lived up to the early rhetoric and actually put the shitshow that is Westminster politics in the bin. They and he never have though. They can’t. They aren’t capable and frankly don’t want to. I’m pretty much done wondering when or if Labour will ever live up to… anything.

        Well? We are capable. We do want to and We CAN.

  24. StevenPerth says:

    I think that rallies in Edinburgh or Glasgow will always attract more coverage from ‘mainstream’ media. Unless an event is at Holyrood or on the squinty bridge close to the BBC at Pacific Quay little will be heard about it. They come north now and then for Loch Ness Monster story. Apposite that the march walked down Reform Street, up with the bonnets of Bonny Dundee!

  25. Referendum1707 says:

    The dogs in the street, well the smarter ones anyway, could tell you that “liberal” lefties are among the worst hypocrites of all. Freedom for everywhere…… except Scotland of course. They are possessed of exactly the same colonialist mindset as their counterparts on the right, they don’t want to acknowledge that of course so when their hypocrisy is pointed out to them they start squealing about natsis and cyberbullies etc etc ad nauseum, anything except a frank and open discussion about the facts of the situation.

    Whether they know it or not, it’s all largely about creating diversions (which is more or less exactly what the “peoples vote” shambles in Edinburgh was) hoping to sucker in independence supporters who should know better and get them to waste time and energy on cleaning up England’s mess instead of actively working to boost support for independence, the prospect of which terrifies the fake liberal lefties as much as it does the WM establishment.

    Speaking of boosting support for independence, this fundraiser is 42% funded with only 17 days to go. One million pro indy leaflets to be distributed throughout Scotland, plus other stuff too, car stickers, flags etc.

    Help support this and let’s scare the crap out of the lot of them.


    • Les Bremner says:

      This will be excellent in making the Yes Groups to be seen to be coordinated and moving forward with one voice.

      The SNP branches all get a uniform layout in their literature for the public, as do the opposition parties. This idea of a uniform appearance for the umpteen Yes groups is marvellous.

      I have contributed, and I am to be rewarded with a Yes saltire flag which will replace my basic one on the flagpole at my house.

  26. Wullie says:

    poor auld Ming terrified of losing his lifetime achievement award. Englishman second class

  27. I was in Edinburgh that day and live in Dundee – so I have a different perspective maybe.
    I think it’s a clear case of Edinburgh stealing the limelight on Dundee and the rest of Scotland – pure and simple.

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