Truth, lies, and consequences

lies
There’s a huge amount of suspicion and distrust about the actions of the British government during this crisis. A lot of it is with very good reason. Yet there are questions founded on convincing and solid evidence and questions which are not. It’s vital during this crisis that we do not allow ourselves to become distracted by questions where there is no solid or convincing evidence and fall down a rabbit hole of unfounded conspiracy theorising. Allowing ourselves to do so merely helps the British government to wriggle off the hook on those questions where there is substantial and substantive evidence that they’re not being entirely honest with us. Those basterts need to be held to account once all this is over, and we must not do anything which might help them to get away with it.

There is a pressing need for this government to explain how it squandered the advantage that the UK had when this epidemic was getting established in other parts of Europe but had still to have a severe impact in the UK. As neighbouring countries went into lockdown, the UK was still permitting mass gatherings to go ahead at the Cheltenham races, and was very reluctant to introduce social distancing measures.

There is a real concern that the British government is deliberately suppressing the true extent of the epidemic by not reporting deaths due to the virus which occur outside hospitals. There is no convincing argument for them to do this, since both Scotland and Wales are reporting all deaths where the virus is listed on the death certificate. There’s no real reason for England not to do so too. There are fears that hundreds of deaths are going unreported in care homes and in the community which would show that England – where the Conservatives have sole responsibility for the NHS and public services – is coping with this crisis far worse than the rest of the UK.

There are concerns that government ministers are using their privilege and connections in order to secure special treatment for themselves and their families. Michael Gove managed to get a test for his daughter when she was displaying mild symptoms, yet NHS workers still can’t get tested.

There are serious issues with the provision of personal protection equipment for staff in the NHS, care facilities, and essential workers. And above all this is a crisis which is being dealt with by public services which are threadbare and worn out from the cumulative effects of a decade of the Conservatives’ ideologically driven austerity.

There is a real concern that the British government is still pursuing a version of the herd immunity strategy and has not totally abandoned it. There is extremely solid evidence to believe that the British government did, despite its denials, pursue the discredited herd immunity strategy during the early weeks of this crisis. By doing so they lost valuable time, and this may yet lead to the UK becoming one of the worst affected states in Europe in terms of deaths from the virus. The contrast between the UK death rate – where England’s figures still don’t include deaths outside hospitals – and the death rate in countries like Ireland or Denmark is sobering. That’s an example of a serious question, one which is it right and proper to press the government on. It’s only one of many.

None of these are questions which the British government is keen to answer right now, and they’re being aided by a media where there are significant press and broadcasting outlets which are not keen to pursue them either. As the daily death toll, the death toll that the government admits to, reached almost 1000 a day, the headlines on the BBC were still about the health of Boris Johnson. Yet even when questions are asked of the government, the ministers who present the daily government press conferences are studious in their efforts not to answer them. In fact not answering questions is the only thing that the British government is really efficient at.

So it’s not like the Conservatives are behaving in a totally transparent and honest way. Once this crisis has passed, there is a huge stack of questions for them to answer. Questions which can’t be brushed away by elevating Boris Johnson to the status of sainthood just because he was unfortunate enough to become infected and even more unfortunate to suffer severe symptoms. They are not going to come out of the other side of this crisis covered in glory. That is assuming that the questions will ever get asked. Which is itself a pretty big question.

But there are also supicions which are misplaced. It’s important that we focus on the real reasons where we have plausible evidence which can be used to hold this government to account and avoid falling prey to some suspicions where there is no such solid evidence. There are a lot of wild theories out there just now, as people are stuck at home and are forced to rely on a media which is patently failing to do its job of holding power to account, and where social media is a morass of fact, reliable information, misinformation, and the outright crazy. If we fall into the trap of espousing theories for which there is no solid or plausible evidence then we risk discrediting those arguments where there are solid and compelling reasons to suggest that the British government is being untrustworthy, and allowing them to get away with it. Because then the government and its apologists will simply dismiss everything you say as being the views of a crank, a conspiracy theorist, or someone who is a malign actor.

However there are rumours circulating on social media which are not backed by strong evidence. These rumours are fueled by the certain knowledge that the British government is composed of liars, charlatans, malign incomptents, and idiots. So if they’re prepared to lie about one thing, if they are incompetent about another and then lie to cover it up, on the face of it it’s reasonable to assume that they’re going to lie about everything else as well. After all, only a fool trusts anything that a known liar says. But the thing about liars is that not everything that they say needs to be lie, and they will use the things they say that are truthful to discredit those who accuse them of lying about the things that they are indeed lying about. Liars tell us that falsehoods are the truth, and so after a while they end up making us believe that even the truth must be a falsehood.

An example of a story which is helpful to the Conservatives is circulating on social media just now. That’s the claim that Boris Johnson was faking his illness. It’s not difficult to understand why people might believe this claim. We all know that Boris Johnson is a liar and an opportunist. He’s built his entire career on an edifice of lies and untruths, so why should his illness be any different? Is it plausible that he’d lie about it? Sure. He’s lied about so many other things.

However unless there is hard evidence, it’s not helpful to speculate that Boris Johnson didn’t “really” suffer from severe effects of covid-19 and didn’t “really” need to go into intensive care. Equally it’s not helpful to claim that he has, in your non-medical opinion, recovered “suspiciously quickly”. Everyone’s experience of this disease will be different. Some people will get infected and show no symptoms at all. Others will display only mild symptoms. Those who are unfortunate enough to experience more severe symptoms will display a range of reactions and will vary dramatically in how they cope with their symptoms and how they recover from them, or sadly how they fail to recover from them. Every individual has a unique response to the same condition. That’s a fundamental tenet of medicine. That’s one of the reasons why they call it the art of medicine. Since it’s relatively easy for the Conservatives to rebut this claim, it only serves to discredit those who voice other – better founded – suspicions about this government’s dishonesty. By falling prey to suspicions that we can’t back up convincingly, we only make it easier for Boris Johnson and his parade of ministerial charlatans to get away with all their many many other lies.

So let’s make sure that we don’t allow the Conservatives to escape responsibility by painting their critics as cranks or conspiracy theorists. When we fall prey to making accusations for which there is no strong evidence we merely make it easier for the Conservatives to avoid accountability for their very real lies and failings. It’s not like we don’t already have plenty of metaphorical rope with which to hang them. Their lies will have consequences.

And finally, because we could all do with some cheering up during these difficult times…


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87 comments on “Truth, lies, and consequences

  1. darthtimon says:

    Reblogged this on Coalition of the Brave and commented:
    A series of excellent points!

  2. […] out this article by Wee Ginger Dug. They make an excellent argument as to the inconsistent approach from our Tory […]

  3. jfngw says:

    I think we can all keep our own counsel regarding the truthfulness of Johnson’s illness, I will remain suspicious. But the media’s attempt to turn him into a deity needs to be countered somehow.

  4. David Agnew says:

    It is fair to say: That nothing has passed through that mans mouth, that has not passed through the arse of a cow first

  5. JSM says:

    Reblogged this on Ramblings of a 50+ Female and commented:
    You mean like this tweet?
    “Luis Pitarma and Jenny McGee, the two nurses specifically named by Boris Johnson as saving his life. To work as a nurse you have to be on the register. Neither of these names exist on the NMC Register which is searchable. Why is that?”

    https://www.nmc.org.uk/registration/search-the-register/

  6. marconatrix says:

    I agree with you in general, but then just look at the timing of Boris’ little passion play, and if it could be shown to have been even partly faked, what a blow that would be. Can the claims that medical staff tending the PM were forced to sign the Official Secrets Act be proven? And if so whether this is routine, and if not why it was insisted upon. I just feel a wee bit more investigation would be worthwhile before this juicy morsel is abandoned.

  7. grafter says:

    “JERUSALEM—Roman authorities are investigating controversial religious leader Jesus of Nazareth for violating the Empire’s clear “stay in tomb” order. After crucifying him and laying him in the tomb, Roman guards put Him under strict orders to stay there and not come back, rising victorious over sin and death.

    But Jesus, answering to a higher authority, refused to stay dead and busted out of the tomb, establishing a kingdom that would never end — again, in clear violation of the government’s orders.
    “Jesus is a dangerous rebel, refusing to bend the knee to Caesar and not abiding by the law of sin and death,” said one Roman official. “He clearly broke the law by leaving the tomb, and we’re going to be issuing a citation and placing him under mandatory quarantine for these crimes.”
    After coming into contact with many large groups over the course of approximately 40 days, Jesus ascended into heaven and is currently thought to be reigning on high.
    Authorities are also investigating Him for planning to gather with a large multitude of every tribe, tongue, and nation. He says he currently has no plans to obey any earthly king on the matter, pressing ahead with the gathering of those who believe He died and rose again and trust Him alone for their salvation.”

  8. Brian Powell says:

    There is a vocal group of folk on twitter with Independence stuff in their bio, they say they support Ind, who want to blame the FM for everything from not closing the border to shortage of everything needed. They seem to want her to resign etc.
    If they are genuine I would suspect in reality they have single agendas in their mind, and are also the ones who would be swept away from a concerted unionist opposition.

  9. Alasdair Macdonald says:

    Another insightful piece.

    During the recent General Election, the Tory case was completely unexamined by the mainstream media, with the BBC and Channel 4 News being particularly culpable (despite its eco debate and the empty chairing of Messrs Johnson and Farage). In some cases, such as failing to appear for an interview with Ms Kay Burley on Sky News, refusing to appear was also a tactic.

    All of the media as they had done since he was elected Leader of the Labour Party monstered Mr Corbyn relentlessly and the Labour manifesto was shredded (with no little help from Blairites). With Jo Swinson turning out to be the ‘car crash’ that many of us expected. The anti-Tory forces in England were hounded, while the pretty empty Tory manifesto (Get Brexit Done) was largely unexamined.

    The Tory strategy had discounted Scotland and they expected losses and did not really campaign here, leaving the compliant media to attack the SNP.

    They also discounted Northern Ireland as they almost always do, having done for the DUP.

    Sadly, Wales because of the number of English ‘settlers’ along the border, predictably, was ripe for some Tory gains, although the increasingly pro-home rule stance of the Welsh Labour Party probably saved it from the kind of humiliation Labour got in the Midlands and North of England.

    So, following this successful strategy, the Tories take advantage of Covid-19 to control access for questioning the mendacious vacuities being mouthed by Hancock/Gove/Patel/Raab at the daily briefings. And, having been warned about the ‘licence fee’ the BBC has docilely become the government propaganda service.

    In Scotland, the BBC continues to niggle at the SG looking for openings. Care Homes and PPE are its principle lines of attack.

  10. Golfnut says:

    We should never fall into the trap of viewing situations and events in isolation. Whether or not Johnson suffered any serious effects from coronavirus is probably not something we will ever get to the bottom of, what we do know is just at the point where the UK gov were facing questions on their coronavirus strategy, Johnson is removed from the equation which just happened to coincide with the ramping up of the attacks against the SG in general and the FM in particular. Even today, its revealed that English PPE manufacturers have either been directed to or decided all by themselves to stop deliveries to Scotland. All of last week we have had wall to wall coverage of Scot Gov failing to provide PPE to care homes, tv interviews, letters from Dr’s all criticising the SG and Nicola over this matter. It’s not a coincidence, this is planned deflection and manipulation.

    • Legerwood says:

      The UK Gov stepped in a couple of weeks ago and cancelled a contract the Welsh Gov thought they had with Roche to supply test kits. The Welsh Gov wanted to ramp up its testing.

      UK Gov obviously did not like that so cancelled order and said ordering of test kits would be done by them then distributed by them. What could possibly go wrong?

      Well this. The UK Gov ordered 3.5 million antibody testing kits and guaranteed payment whether they worked or not. They did not work.

      When the UK Gov says it is distributing PPE and using the army are they distributing it to all parts of the UK? Or just England?
      Does the SG , and other devolved administrations have to source and distribute it’s own PPE?

      Questions the MSM don’t ask but obscure what is actually happening by using ‘UK’ and ‘the NHS’ instead of the correct, exact, precise and transparent nomenclature.

      • Bob Lamont says:

        Then the BluSky ventilator order they cancelled….
        There’s an awful lot of dodgy accountancy being done I reckon to bury their fups…

  11. Ken2 says:

    Will being near death’s door change any perspective. Will it change the Tory ideology?

    Fund the NHS properly. Instead of a ghost train and an overpriced, overrated nuclear station. The Tories cut NHS funding. Johnston just sanctioned wasted £Billions for HS2.

    The Brexit catastrophe. Essential workers leaving. Migrant nurses saving people’s lives. Healthcare workers. Will that change perspective.

    In four years the Tories could be voted out. Vote out the unionists in Scotland.

  12. Ken2 says:

    The girlfriend has just moved in against isolation guidelines. UK Gov ministers breaking the rules.

  13. bringiton says:

    I can fully understand people being sceptical about Johnson’s disappearing act.
    He has done this every time the going gets tough and difficult questions need to be answered.
    Very fortunate for him,even if he did personally suffer the onset of the virus due to his own stupidity.
    However,the stupidity of his government’s policy on handling this crisis is another matter and will not go away.
    Even the Tory dogs on the street know they screwed up big time and it ain’t over yet.

  14. annie says:

    Thank you, good sensible article, wise words for all of us to heed

  15. Mark Russell says:

    Excellent as usual, but with one fatal flaw.

    By the time this outbreak is over, there won’t be a conservative party. However those responsible will certainly be answerable, but in a court of law. Every. Single. One.

  16. Alan Peterson says:

    Hmmm, so the UK death rates were going up, shortages of vital equipment in the NHS hitting the news, equipment meant for Scotland and Wales getting diverted to England, the government’s “herd immunity ” policy getting ridiculed by anyone with a smidgin of a clue about viruses etc etc etc.

    Then Johnson gets announced as having CV and goes into intensive care. 2 days later he is reported as being in “good spirits” and then a few days after that he is out of intensive care in time for Good Friday along with sickening headlines from the billionaire press and wall to wall coverage on the BBC.

    I think I see where you’re coming from with this article but for me this “Boris the fighter” thing has all the hallmarks of an establishment propaganda exercise to distract from the clusterbourach that is the UK’s handling of this situation. Sorry but anyone who thinks they would not stoop to such a thing is an idiot.

  17. Ex Pat says:

    TRUTH TELLERS

    PROF JOHN ASHTON CBE

    Coranavirus truth-teller and retired English public health director Prof John Ashton CBE tells us that we must hold the Tories to account _now_, and publicly demand answers to the key questions _now_, because the Tories are following their Brexit playbook and _already_ attempting to rewrite the history of coronavirus Tory genocide. They are aided in this by a mostly corrupt UK Muppet Stream Media. –

    https://twitter.com/Johnrashton47

    It is an incredible moment when _you_ realise that the _entire_ UK Muppet Stream Media is a disinformation racket whose goal is to ensure that _you_, a member of the great British public, are entirely uninformed about your own government. That the Guardian is as fake as the Torygraph and the Daily Heil. What do you do then? Who do you rely on?

    “Even if I could tell you who to listen to, you shouldn’t take those suggestions. You have to decide for yourself.” Paraphrased. – Noam Chomsky

    Read widely; the wider the better and _you_decide. If you have limited time, try a smaller number and boot out the ones that don’t pass the Shill smell test.

    • Ex Pat says:

      JOHN PILGER

      John Pilger has laid it out very clearly –

      ‘With many if not most independent journalists barred or ejected from the “mainstream”, a corner of the Internet has become a vital source of disclosure and evidence-based analysis: true journalism. Sites such as wikileaks.org, consortiumnews.com, ZNet zcomm.org, wsws.org, truthdig.com, globalresearch.org, counterpunch.org and informationclearinghouse.com are required reading for those trying to make sense of a world in which science and technology advance wondrously while political and economic life in the fearful “democracies” regress behind a media facade of narcissistic spectacle.’

      ‘In Britain, just one website offers consistently independent media criticism. This is the remarkable Media Lens – remarkable partly because its founders and editors as well as its only writers, David Edwards and David Cromwell, since 2001 have concentrated their gaze not on the usual suspects, the Tory press, but the paragons of reputable liberal journalism: the BBC, the Guardian, Channel 4 News.’

      – ‘Hold the front page. The reporters are missing’, by John Pilger, 20th September 2018 – John Pilger.com –

      http://johnpilger.com/articles/hold-the-front-page-the-reporters-are-missing

    • Ex Pat says:

      UK STATE PROPAGANDISTS

      You rightly reject the UK MSM and you are led to Adam Curtis – reportedly a truth teller, but no matter how many hours you spend, you will never be any the wiser after watching his ‘work’. In fact you may be even more bamboozled and perplexed. Adam Curtis was (is?) an employee of the BBC. Coincidence? HA !!

      It turns out that on WeeGingerDug multiple commenters suggest following Adam Curtis and they back each other up. Behold Trolls, whose job it is to lead you up the garden path. Craig Murray wrote an article on spotting Trolls – search his website. ‘How to Spot a Twitter Troll’, by Craig Murray, 2nd July 2019 – Craig Murray blog.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/07/how-to-spot-a-twitter-troll/

      And see today; how the internet is subverted by GCHQ, the UK (Lack of) Integrity Initiative and more – ‘Information Wars’, by Craig Murray, 11th April 2020 – Craig Murray blog. Bon voyage ! ; )

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/information-wars/

      The (Lack of) Integrity Initiative – (more) UK state propandists. It turns out that lots and lots of household name UK journalists follow particular twitter accounts that are, wait for it, UK state propaganda outfits. Operation Mockingbird for the 21st century. Or no surprise there ! See Craig Murray for details, above or via google.

      Then there’s GCHQ who have legions of busy scribblers who attempt to put out the right views. Spell it ‘Reich views’ and you get idea; they don’t seem to think much of social democracy (as in Denmark, Norway and Finland which may strike you as peculiarly middle-of-the-road mainstream European). Can’t have the UK peasants voting against the Neo-Con robber baron policies that have made the Tory party’s backers so rich. Funny how that works, eh ?

  18. Thepnr says:

    The point being made I think in the article is not whether Boris Johnson was ill enough to have to go into intensive care or not, it is that there is no evidence that he wasn’t ill enough to go into intensive care so any suspicions are, at least for now purely conjecture.

    There are however tons of evidence of how the Tories ignored the exposure of the gaps in the UK’s response to a pandemic that were revealed by Operation Cygnus carried out in 2016. They ignored the conclusions that there was a severe lack of PPE, ventilators and ICU beds available to cope with such a pandemic.

    The report was believed to be damming but it has yet to see the light of day, the government having considered it to be too costly to spend what would have been needed to follow the recommendations.

    Then there is the whole Dominic Cummings inspired “herd immunity” strategy that was announced, then supposedly abandoned after it was revealed that the health service would be overwhelmed and up to 500,000 excess deaths could result.

    Maybe this strategy hasn’t been abandoned after all according to Home Office messages that were leaked to the press and which certainly implied those at the more senior levels in the government believe that “we’re all going to get it anyway” so might as well take it on the chin now.

    I think there’s plenty there already to be getting on with and where there is sufficient evidence to expose the incompetence and compassionless government that the UK has ever known is in charge at this time of crisis.

    There will be more to come I’m sure but am willing to wait and see, specifically getting money or food whatever is necessary to those who need it is not looking promising with so many who will fall through the cracks already revealed.

    We really don’t need to be attacking the Tories for things that they may not have done as there is plenty to go on now, for things we are certain they have done. Things that are inexcusable and they can be made to answer for.

  19. Thepnr says:

    The point being made I think in the article is not whether Boris Johnson was ill enough to have to go into intensive care or not, it is that there is no evidence that he wasn’t ill enough to go into intensive care so any suspicions are, at least for now purely conjecture.

    There are however tons of evidence of how the Tories ignored the exposure of the gaps in the UK’s response to a pandemic that were revealed by Operation Cygnus carried out in 2016. They ignored the conclusions that there was a severe lack of PPE, ventilators and ICU beds available to cope with such a pandemic.

    The report was believed to be damming but it has yet to see the light of day, the government having considered it to be too costly to spend what would have been needed to follow the recommendations.

    Then there is the whole Dominic Cummings inspired “herd immunity” strategy that was announced, then supposedly abandoned after it was revealed that the health service would be overwhelmed and up to 500,000 excess deaths could result.

    Maybe this strategy hasn’t been abandoned after all according to Home Office messages that were leaked to the press and which certainly implied those at the more senior levels in the government believe that “we’re all going to get it anyway” so might as well take it on the chin now.

    I think there’s plenty there already to be getting on with and where there is sufficient evidence to expose the incompetence and compassionless government that the UK has ever known is in charge at this time of crisis.

    There will be more to come I’m sure but I’m willing to wait and see, specifically getting money or food whatever is necessary to those who need it is not looking promising with so many who will fall through the cracks already revealed.

    We really don’t need to be attacking the Tories for things that they may not have done as there is plenty to go on now, for things we are certain they have done. Things that are inexcusable and they can be made to answer for when the time comes but for now, there’s no need to muddy the waters is what is being said in this article.

  20. Doug says:

    One of the most disgusting aspects of the health crisis has been the puke-inducing hyperbole spewed out by the English/British nationalist media in praise of the tory government [one of the most incompetent governments on the planet] and the liar and equally incompetent Johnson.

  21. Thepnr says:

    Apologies for the double post.

  22. Robert graham says:

    Every single charge against Bawjaws and his rancid Tory government is mirrored exactly by his chum across the Atlantic , the Same failures replicated in more or less the same order the difference being the Tory party in this country are a bit more devious going about their allotted tasks ,

    I just watched a montage of quotes from Trump from the beginning of February this year , the daily changes culminating in the dismissal of his chief medical officer yesterday , makes dire and disturbing viewing , it’s like watching a movie and you are waiting on the good guys to appear on the horizon , will they arrive in time ? Who the f/k knows and would we find , out being under house arrest .

  23. Joe says:

    It is now got to the point.even on channel.4.news as I write this.
    That it is getting to be that anything about the Coronavirus.
    In Scotland.is SNP.BAAAAAD.with their whistleblowers that they
    Seem to find.even on the earlier.stv.news bulletin.
    They had a guy.decrying the SNP.government.and saying.
    Coronavirus tests are easier to get in England.what a load of
    Rubbish.(.the guy must obviously be a Tory.) and the sad thing
    Is Loads of people in Scotland.swallow these lies.
    BBC.STV.CHANNEL 4.ETC.ETC.all the same.any report in
    Scotland.has to be.SNP.BAAAAAD.
    The quicker we get out of this discredited union.the better.
    Independence cannot come soon enough.

  24. stewartb says:

    re- “… not reporting deaths due to the virus which occur outside hospitals” in England.

    To be accurate, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) is already publishing data on COVID-19 related deaths outside hospitals and outwith testing. This now forms part of its regular weekly release of data derived from submitted death certificates and cover (only) England and Wales. The count includes death certificates on which COVID-19 is ‘mentioned’.

    Importantly, the ONS data also include ‘place of occurrence’ information including numbers of COVID-19 deaths in e.g. hospitals, care homes and other specified places.

    The last release from ONS was for week ending 27 March. The next data release is due tomorrow, 14 April:

    ‘Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional: week ending 3 April 2020’.

    Source for current release: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

    But there is a snag: these ONS data presently are being released 11 days after the end of the week that is being reported on. So the time lag is substantial.

    • Legerwood says:

      I don’t think they can easily reduce that time lag because of the time people are given to register the death. The families have to collect the death certificate then go to the Registrars to register the death.

      In Scotland I believe they have reduced the time you have to register the death to 7 days but then a further complication is if the death occurs just before or at a weekend.

      Therefore some lag is inevitable.

      It should be relatively easy to interrogate the registration data to get the info on place of death eg care homes. The place of death is one of the bits of info that has to be recorded.

      ONS is producing the data for England but are the Gov ministers reporting them or the MSM asking the politicians about them?

      What the Scottish Gov is reporting
      https://www.gov.scot/news/additional-covid-19-daily-data-published/

      • stewartb says:

        re – ‘ONS is producing the data for England but are the Gov ministers reporting them or the MSM asking the politicians about them?’

        The numbers for deaths occurring outside hospital that are associated with the virus were very small in the last ONS release a week ago – not ‘newsworthy’. As the numbers outside hospitals rise, regrettably, in subsequent releases, it will become harder for anyone – ministers or the media – to ignore them.

        Scotland has already made public the ‘mentions’ data and not just deaths following positive tests in hospital: for folk in England new data based on a similar, broader metric may soon deliver a shock.

    • Welsh Sion says:

      Stop using sources which lump England and Wales together like the ONS.

      If you want Wales only stats, use this:

      https://covid19-phwstatement.nhs.wales/

      (Updated daily).

      England has its own methods and uses the Patel metric for measuring deaths from Covid-19 – UNLIKE Scotland AND Wales.

  25. Macart says:

    That was well said Paul.

  26. Hamish100 says:

    Radio 4 tonight. In England Many care home deaths will be recorded as not known as patient taken to hospital may die before any tests are undertaken. Looks like the deaths for covid 19 will be underestimated by a substantial amount. What a disgrace.

  27. James Cheyne says:

    This herd immunity that is happening, that is not officially happening, devalues lives across the uk as being expendable, Of humans, being nothing more than numbers to balance financial books in the economy.
    manipulation of resources so that there is a better world for a few at the top whom manage always to travel around the country side, letting their partners move in with them, or staying a few days in in a castle in Scotland, while still able to be the first in the que for testing on the NHS while others lesser mortals have to wait or die waiting.
    It reminds me of the Henry Kissinger report and USAID,1974. That Tony Blair seemed to admire,
    And of corse there is, Philip, whom once was overheard to say that when he died he would like to come back as a virus so he could kill a few minions he didn’t like.
    The Kissinger statement can be fact checked,
    The P Philip one might be fact checked depending on the news media that reported it at the time.
    It is quite mind blowing to realise that there are people at the top that lead and advise countries whom think like this, especially now we have a Coronavirus in our midst, and our government down south seems to be playing a game with our lives.

  28. Dr Jim says:

    The strategy of herd immunity in itself is sound, it’s the phrase that’s ghastly, they cottoned on to people not liking that pretty quick, the problem becomes the speed of the implementation to achieve a desired good economic outcome, and if that’s what you base the plan on then you intend to kill people at a rate acceptable to how much you value money over life, and that becomes unacceptable to those of us who are the ruled over and the ones most likely to lose our lives, because plans like that are thought up by the same kind of people who came up with the phrase *herd immunity* in the first place, so they don’t seem like very nice caring sort of folk

    They can’t very well ask a society *who’d like to give up their life for the economy please* because that wouldn’t work at all, they know that, people are stupid, but not that much
    And they can’t ask society to give up their life for their country either because society will kinda see through that a bit quick as no one is shooting at them, so that’s a loser

    So what’s left, well just waffle around and bluff for as long as it takes to pretend you’re not doing the first thing you intended to do all along, then give in when the public pressure becomes too great against the strength of your advisers telling you your voting numbers are going down if you don’t begin to act caring enough

    As long as they do some Queen and Union flag waving Wellington bomber Spitfire jingoism in celebration when it’s over, oh and maybe a plaque with names and a catchy solemn sounding phrase, then they’ll just about pull it off

    With the willing assistance of the Great British media who’ll be working on that as we speak

    • Thepnr says:

      “Why the UK could be Europe’s biggest coronavirus casualty”

      https://archive.vn/LNh2w

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Could not agree more Dr Jim… In the absence of a vaccine the only alternative is acquired immunity through exposure to the virus, effectiveness and longevity as yet unknown, the problem is how you manage it in the initial then successive waves.
      HMG are more concerned with their electoral survival than the destruction visited upon the population, and this must not be forgotten no matter how they try to spin it.

  29. Arthur Thomson says:

    I have spent an entire lifetime being confronted with John Bull crap. And guess what, it hasn’t influenced me one iota towards their despicable cause.

    Reading, viewing and hearing about their stuff is part recreation and part self preservation for me. I like to laugh at their pathetic conceit and to be at least a bit prepared for what they are intent on doing next – about which I can do very little.

    That is not new. That is how it has always been in my lifetime and I have detested it.

    What IS new is that a half of Scotland’s population and growing now have the same contempt for the Brits that I have.

    The Brits will never become civilised or even stop telling lies. But as our numbers grow we will grow In strength and will find a route out of their sham of a union.

    In the meantime, in my view we need to do what the Dug does – look and laugh at all that conceit of theirs. Enjoy commenting on it here and use it to deepen our resolve but not allow our emotions to be overtaken by it.

    • Ah, it is no accident that Johnson and Hancock are portrayed by the ‘British’ media as the Champions of the whole UK, fighting the good fight, and all that other bellicose clap trap.
      We have 4 distinct Health Services on these isles, but not that you would know it if you tuned in to BBC Jockland.
      It is UK totals on their daily Bring Out Your Fead bulletins now.
      Scotland is making too good a fist of tackling this terrible outbreak.
      That won’t do, will it? SNP Good? WTF!

      Remember all those by-jingo war movies from the ‘fifties?

      The language used by the hacks is designed to conjure up the Dunkirk London Blitz spirit.

      We are on ‘war footing’; Johnson and Hancock are Jack Hawkins and Donald Sinden , the Officer Class, on the bridge of a corvette in the Atlantic, while a young Gordon Jackson, always the token Jock, is a lowly AB manning the guns, while that wonderful Welsh actor ,Kenneth Griffiths is in the engine room, covered in oil, slapping grease on the pistons.
      The colonies get a mention, but not in a starring role.

      Kenneth More was reaching for the Stars and Jack Warner was keeping the home fires burning in a terrace two up two down in Ealing.
      Who do you think you are kidding, Coronavirus, if you think Old England’s done? All together, now.

      ‘England’ was at war, and ‘England’ is ‘fighting’ the virus.

      Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Health and Support Services have been air bushed out of ‘England’s war’ against the plague.

      We’ve even had Vera Lynn assuring the English that they’ll meet again, but not all of them. Many thousands will die for ‘the economy’, whatever the fuck that is.

      I note that Carlaw Leonard and Rennie have disappeared off the face of the earth.
      This is all getting a bit too serious for them, I suppose.
      Monica Lennon, and the usual dead betas demand that the Scottish Government and our Medical Teams stop in their tracks next week and justify their actions to James Kelly Liz Smith Murdo Fraser and Ruth Davidson * if she can tear herself away from TV studios.).
      What a pointless bunch of idiots.
      The rabble wants our government to stop saving lives and give Neil Findlay and Annie Wells the chance to shout SNP BAD for a day?

      When we get on top of this in the Northern Colony, we must close the border with England.
      They are clearly still in the grip of this menace.with the worst yet to come, because of the fools running England right now..
      I see no reason for the Scottish Government to seek anyone’s, never mind that buffoon Johnson’s, ‘permission’ to close our borders and not only on Health Grounds.
      By Christ, come Independence, we must scrap d’Honte immediately.

  30. Jingstaebetsy says:

    Herd Immunity is a serious area of scientific research. It is a good thing to have in populations – call it population immunity if that helps.

    By itself, and with respect to this virus, it could never be a successful strategy and I don’t think labelling it as the strategy provides the needed focus on those risk management decision-makers who decided to jump in unprepared. By referring to Herd Immunity you direct the attention to the scientific principle, deflecting it away from the decision makers – those deciding what level of population risk was acceptable; coupled to the laissez faire, free market attitude of the right wing govt. = unpreparedness.

  31. James Cheyne says:

    I see bbc are thought preparing us for the next cyclic event coming our way, their on about food shortages, starving the populations, due to,( wait for it.). Because many of the food growers and food industry cannot sell it or transport it,
    Correct me if I am wrong, but if good old England managed to bottle liquids, can food, freeze dry food etc during the Second World War,
    Why are they not capable of saving food for the future now,
    They have a far higher rate of producing food through machinery and conveyor belts and computer mechanism in this day and age than in WW2, These stock piles of food do not have wasted, and very few people are needed to work the machines, or at least our government told us that, when we all started losing or employment due to machinary.
    Our government has had years to think about supply chains, food shortages and food storage. after all were these plans not being prepared for Brexit.
    Maybe they are trying to bump us off.

    • Legerwood says:

      There is also a far larger population to provide for now than there was in WW2 and diet then was much more restricted than it is now.

  32. Ken2 says:

    The Tories membership is male and over seventy. People dying.

    The 11WW killed millions and left people starving. An absolute catastrophe.

    The European Union was formed to stop
    War and starvation in Europe. It has been successful. Helping improve the economy.

    Westminster illegal wars. Financial fraud and tax evasion destroying the world economy. The EU have to try and sort out the mess. Bear the burden.

    Held to account? Useless. The wanted the poison chalice. The lied to get it. They could not make a bigger mess. Liars always get found out.

    The Tories can be voted out in four years. Vote out the unionists in Scotland. Make the world a better place.

  33. Ken2 says:

    They consider ‘herd immunity’, until they get the disease. Prevention is better than cure. The Tories cut NHS funding. Instead of increasing it,

    They cut funding for NHS and essential services but wasted £Billions on a white elephant railway and nuclear station. Totally poor decision making. Westminster have been wasting Scotland’s resources and revenues for years. Secretly and illegally. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act.

    Iraq, Lockerbie and Dunblane kept secret for 100 years.

  34. deelsdugs says:

    The voice of reason Paul.
    Meanwhile, what is going on behind the closed door of Bothan na Plaighe…and where is his mentor? Perhaps grinding the handle of the sycophantic biased broadcasting…

  35. Ken2 says:

    The BBC are just nonsense.. Westminster controlled. They troll the people, Do not watch it. Get information from other sources. More rational. Including the internet.

  36. Ken2 says:

    11WW people were rationed and starving. Millions died worldwide.

    Scotland is self sufficient in food and energy. Exports it.

    Scottish Gov has increased NHS social care funding. More elderly people can remain in their own homes. Self isolate. There are less deaths in Scotland (pro rata) because of these measures.

    50,000 people died in Scotland a year. Mainly the elderly.

    500.000+ (1/2 million) die in the UK. Mainly the elderly. After a relatively long life.

    Highest average age 85 in Japan. Women on average outlive men.

  37. Petra says:

    BBC’s Victoria Derbyshire announcing, admitting now, that over 2000 care homes have been hit by the coronavirus in England.

  38. grafter says:

    Jon Rappoport lays out the lies and insanity of this folly.

  39. Welsh Sion says:

    We’re all in this together.

    Aye – Wales and Scotland are definitely in it together.

    https://nation.cymru/news/uk-government-telling-companies-not-to-send-ppe-to-wales-and-scotland/

    UK Government ‘telling companies not to send PPE to Wales and Scotland’

    The UK Government has been telling companies supplying personal protective equipment not to send the stock to Wales and Scotland, according to claims in a Scottish newspaper.

    The National newspaper refers to a statement on the website of one of the main PPE suppliers which says that they are only distributing a product to England.

    “You must be registered and operating within England – apologies to Wales and Scotland, we are told you have different processes for getting emergency supplies,” the message reads.

    • Petra says:

      They, Westminster, are deliberately sentencing the Scots and Welsh to death. Let’s hope that we don’t forget this when the crisis is over. It’s also a reminder that we’ll have to stop relying on getting goods from England. I’ve been totally scunnered, for years now, finding that practically every household good that I want to buy is coming from / manufactured in England. Add to that foodstuffs being produced in Scotland and Wales being sent to England to be packaged and then being sent back to us to buy. Another of my (many) gripes relates to the lucrative Scottish whisky industry with 10,000 jobs located in Scotland (with many on zero hour contracts) and 30,000 in England. Sending whisky to England to be exported from English ports. What’s that all about? Anyway first step is getting our Independence and taking control of our OWN countries.

  40. Dave tewart says:

    Confused, you will be, here is a clip from the EBC website, pinch of salt reequired
    The numbers shortfall are due to muurders.

    The number of people dying hit a record weekly high in England and Wales at the start of April, figures show.

    There were 16,387 deaths in the week ending 3 April – the highest since the Office for National Statistics started publishing weekly data in 2005.

    Coronavirus cases contributed to the jump in deaths with 3,475 linked to the virus.

    One in 10 coronavirus deaths this year are in the community – the government’s daily figures just cover hospitals.

    The total number of deaths were 6,000 more than the average for this time of year, when deaths normally start falling after the flu season.

    It is unclear what else is causing this jump in the total number of deaths – the coronavirus deaths only contribute under 60% of these deaths.

    It could be that cases of coronavirus are going undetected or other factors related to the lockdown and outbreak – people not seeking treatment for other conditions or mental health and violence-related deaths – are having an impact.

    This is modern journalism from the people you can trust, I think not

    • Welsh Sion says:

      I keep repeating – Welsh stats are not to be lumped with England stats and the ONS source should not be used. Like Scotland, we are listing deaths from Covid-19 outwith hospitals – UNLIKE England.

      The proper source for rates of infection and deaths in my country is Public Health Wales – updated @ 2pm every day.

      https://covid19-phwstatement.nhs.wales/

      Shut the EBC, ONS and anyone else up who insist on this damnable “EnglandandWales” monitoring. Anyone would think they are trying to close this down to an “England-only” issue – with the Celtic nations carping on the sidelines.

      I think I know my fellow Duggers well-enough to know I have your support in this.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      The HMG strategy over fatalities relies on smudging or obscuring figures in one way or another. C4 and the FT estimated England’s count should be 70% higher than reported from data (then latest 27th March). What is or is not included on the ONS data is dependent on the doctor filling out the DC, and there are already reports of Covid caused deaths which doctors attributed to Altzheimers etc. which further muddies the waters.

      Official death figures shouldn’t be any more than 2 weeks behind, and historical data is available, so deriving a factor (per C4 and FT) should give a more accurate perspective.
      On the Travellingtabby site there is a Scotland chart of average 5 years deaths, current total deaths, and Covid deaths which is interesting. For April 5th, Current 1,741, Average 1,098, Covid declared 282, so 361 unattributed. Or 643 Covid?
      It’s about a week behind(?) but I’m curious to see what the update reveals for the 12th April..

      It’s fairly certain similar assessments are being done elsewhere, so perhaps linking these up can stop the bullshit exiting London…

  41. grafter says:

    Dave….”Coronavirus cases contributed to the jump in deaths with 3,475 linked to the virus.”
    .
    The flu and the common cold are forms of coronavirus. Are you referring to Covid-19 ? Where are the figures relating to deaths FROM the virus as opposed to WITH the virus ? In my opinion underlying health issues are vitally important to give a balanced picture on this virus which according to our corrupt MSM has taken on the mantle of another Black Death.

    • JoMax says:

      How can you be sure that those who died WITH Covid-19 (in addition to other underlying conditions) wouldn’t have died so soon if they hadn’t contracted the virus?

      Not everybody with other conditions is necessarily at death’s door and just waiting to pop off at any minute. I have a number of very elderly friends around here who have varying health conditions and would be at risk but who soldier on and normally have a reasonably active life. Are you suggesting that their demise should be ignored in the figures if they happened to contract the virus which then went on to hasten their end? That’s dangerous.

      The trouble with getting old and dying is that it always happens to other people! It will amaze you that in due course you, too, will want to hang on for as long as possible! Coming to the realisation that your days are numbered, but you don’t know how numbered, fair focuses the mind!

      I also find it offensive that someone should suggest it’s all a big hoax. This isn’t just a wee dose of the ‘flu, despite what others are trying to say. For one thing it appears to be extremely contagious and can be passed on from someone who doesn’t even realise they have the virus and that’s the real concern. When you have full blown ‘flu, you know about it and most people collapse into bed and stay out of circulation for a few days. And the common cold rarely kills anyone. So this is not quite the same thing.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Perhaps it may be wiser to assume ALL deaths over and above the average is attributable to the virus ?
      MSM will always over-dramatise news, but to counter that on underlying health issues will not alter their hype one iota.

  42. Dave tewart says:

    I was making a comment on the quality of reporting being so confused, you would think that was the intention.
    things like a NUMBER of deaths in
    Shetland
    Drumchapel
    Newton Mearns.
    There will always be deaths as that is LIFE.
    What we need is honest reporting.

  43. robert graham says:

    Listening to James O Brien just now on LBC ,he said he didn’t believe the Tory Government were intentionally causing harm to people by their mishandeling of the current situation .

    Make of that what you will ,

    The first approach from this government was , take it on the chin and the herd immunity mantra was rolled out , then quickly rolled back when public opinion more or less told them to fk/ off , this plan hasn’t been dropped its just not being admitted to but its still going on and recent leaks from civil servants has confirmed this.

    This lot can and will get away with actions that should be investigated ,and with prison sentences handed down to those who can be identified as being complicit in a government directive that apparently has now been dropped , all of them will run for cover ,documents will be destroyed . they will get away with it by doing NOTHING , absolutely , NOTHING , Now thats more desirable than being charged with criminal negligence in public office ,

    The culprits will avoid any personal distress because it’s worked before , these people are past masters at deflecting any blame , so dont expect any heads to roll because the evidence is gone . .

  44. Ken2 says:

    4,000/6000 deaths of 500,000 (norm).

    In increase % in death of two , three month term? is not per annum. It is a quarter % of total per annum. ie two, three month? Peak then fall. Or until a vaccine or other increased intervention.

    The overall total per annum will not be know until next year. It might equate to less. ie less than expected because of people self isolating.

    The people dying (earlier) are in proportion the elderly with underlying causes. Underlying causes from which, unfortunately, people would die in any case. Unfortunately of the health, social care workers on the front line. They are always exposed to disease.

    The Tories cut NHS funding. Brexit policy left shortages of staff and essential equipment in the NHS.

    The Scottish Gov had to mitigate the cuts.

    UK 500 murders per annum.

    200 more knife crime (increase in London) Last two? years. 700.

    Crime rates down. Falling.

    120,000 earlier deaths in the rest of the UK per austerity. Cuts in essential services. Life expectancy rate in the rest of the UK falling. (79 years). Women on average live longer than men. (5 years?).

  45. Ken2 says:

    The ‘herd immunity’ was considered until the perpetrators started getting the virus.

    Any cure? Vaccine or intervention might stop more people dying overall. Future.

  46. Dr Jim says:

    Politically England has no need of Scotland and Wales to win elections in England, the sums make it so yet still there are people in Scotland who are wedded to the notion that as long as they vote for a Unionist party they’ll be protected by the greater power of another country

    Since when did the school bully ever look after you unless you gave them your lunch money

    • Welsh Sion says:

      Since when did the school bully ever look after you unless you gave them your lunch money?

      _______

      Never. And he’d come back for more as he knew you were a soft touch.

      Say no more.

  47. Petra says:

    Victoria Derbyshire, BBC, announced this morning that 2000 care homes in England have reported fatalities. The UK, she said has not been including care home deaths in their stats. No mention of the fact that care home deaths are being accounted for in Scotland and Wales. Then she managed to dig out a text, surprise, surprise, from a care worker from Glasgow who ran the ScotGov down to the ground.

    This attack on the ScotGov will continue throughout this crisis and when it’s all over we’ll be informed that the situation would have been much worse in Scotland / Wales without the ”broad shoulders” of the Westminster Government. It’s crucial that we continue to get the truth out there, as Paul is doing. What about you Stu? And Craig? What about using your sites to disseminate information to influence people to support Independence? Drop the ”we hate Nicola Sturgeon” mantra / GRA issues and start focusing on what’s actually going on right now. Nicola Sturgeon has proven to be one of the most compassionate and effective leaders in the World. GRA can be dealt with following Independence, such as amended or repealed. We need you. Please join, rejoin, the Independence Club, ASAP.

    • What Petra said. There are mad Trots ‘shop stewards’ in Trades Unions running about with clip boards getting members to agree that they would be scared to work without PPE, and thank god for Richard Leonard and his wonderful GMB, you know that Union that did nothing to fight for |Glasgow care workers’ equal pay for ten years of Red Tory Glasgow intransigence, will be fighting the BAD SNP all the way.
      Or Anas Sarwar’s MD Bro in law garnering 100 signatures declaring exactly the same thing. Health worker s are scared to treat patients without PPE.
      A load of evil nonsense from both sides of the Yoon coin.
      SNP BAD…nothing else matters to these disgusting people.
      I swear that they would cheer if the daily death tally rose alarmingly.

      CLOSE THE FECKING BORDER NOW.

  48. Petra says:

    Is Hitler running the show?

    ‘THE NHS CHART THAT WILL DECIDE WHETHER YOU RECEIVE VENTILATION IF YOU NEED IT.’

    https://skwawkbox.org/2020/04/13/the-nhs-chart-that-will-decide-whether-you-receive-ventilation-if-you-need-it/

    …………………………………………….

    MARK FRANKLAND:- ‘MY OPEN LETTER TO NICOLA STURGEON.’

    http://marksimonfrankland.blogspot.com/2020/04/my-open-letter-to-nicola-sturgeon-maybe.html

    • Tatu3 says:

      I read the Mark Frankland link. What a great idea. I’d sign a petition for it to happen if someone were to set one up.

  49. Petra says:

    I was just thinking that the BBC weren’t slow in showing footage of coffins being taken away, in Italy and Spain, and basically being stockpiled. What’s going on, say, in London? Another cover-up?

    ”Wait.. what? Firefighters in England have been tasked with removing dead bodies from care homes and private dwellings?” mobile.twitter.com/MrMalky/status/1249655448539729920

    …………………………..

    The latest links from Ann on the Indyref2 site, including one relating to Brexit. Surely to goodness they’re not going to go ahead with this now?

    ”Brexit is back (no, really…). On Wednesday @MichelBarnier will speak to @DavidGHFrost by video link (it’s understood). Both sides will take stock of where the EU-UK future relationship negotiations are going and how they might be managed for the rest of April and May.”

    https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/l-2/

  50. James Cheyne says:

    This is how you judge your political leaders of your country and MSM, not by what they say, but by what they do or have done, then and only then do you see what a mask hides.
    We have watched our British government force people to go back out to work, when they were seriously ill and often died,
    we have watched our government put people on zero hours contracts, and job share so employment stats look better,
    We have witnessed our government pinch women’s pensions without any warning, these women were supposed to live longer? Not if they are in poverty.

    We have watched the devastation of universal credits being paid out late or not at all.
    We have watched our government withdraw finances from our NHS.
    We have watched our governments inhuman attitude towards families that they invited to live here being sent back to their own country.
    We have witnessed a variety of people whom have spoke out being imprisoned and are slowly deteriorating, with no visitors allowed or human rights, while others have had to flee,
    We have watched the budgets of our devolved government be slashed year after year,
    We have gone past the stage of it being a tin hat conspiracy theory, a lot of it, is now, our recent history and the rest we are still going through.
    Do I believe that there is an idealist agenda at the top to lessen the population here in Britain, now we can add Coronavirus to that list and herd immunity.
    I do not wish to make these comments so long, perhaps there are some I cannot fit in or have forgotten.
    The point is it is depopulating our country.

  51. Ken2 says:

    Devolution has increased the Scottish population. 5.2Million. Increased from 2000.

    The Scottish population remained the same from 1900. Five million. Decreased slightly in the 1950’s. (War dead?).

    Until Devolution 2000. Twenty years ago.

    Scottish resources and revenues were illegally taken by Westminster Gov unionists to fund London S/E. The North/South divide. The Barnett Formula formulated secretly and illegally to take the Oil revenues. Thatcher.

    To fund Westminster illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion.

    Since Devolution Scotland has been better managed. Westminster failed policies mitigated. Scotland will be Independent when people vote for it. Support for SNP/Independence increasing.

  52. James Cheyne says:

    Well we really will have to pay attention to our Scottish legal system, that has enabled the devolved Scottish government to pass legislation to go around uk.
    We hear that the uk are trying hard to change our laws or override them, making them null or void.
    If that happens, we no longer have a say over our future.
    We are being bombarded from all angles at the moment,

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