Boris Johnson has been fnaugh fnaughing his way through Prime Minister’s Questions and refusing to acknowledge that the SNP was given a mandate by the Scottish electorate for another independence referendum. He conceded that it’s up to the people of Scotland to decide whether they wish to remain a part of the UK, but insisted that the right was exercised in 2014 and it was a “once in a generation” vote. We’re going to hear this excuse a lot, because it’s the only excuse the British government has got left.
Boris Johnson can’t plausibly argue that the SNP has no mandate from the Scottish electorate when that party won a larger vote share and a larger share of seats than his Conservative party did in the UK as a whole. He can’t plausibly maintain that there’s no mandate for another referendum when his own branch office in Scotland stood on the single platform of opposing another referendum and got its collective arse handed to it on a plate glazed with Stephen Kerr’s tears. If Boris Johnson maintains that he’s got a mandate from the UK electorate to deliver Brexit, the SNP has an even stronger and more convincing mandate from the Scottish electorate to deliver an independence referendum.
That point about a mandate is unarguable, except that is if you’re one of those people who deny the existence of Scotland as a political entity and claim that the SNP won merely a “subset” of UK seats in a UK election. Describing the nation of Scotland, a constituent nation of the UK as a subset is quite possibly the cringiest description of Scotland ever, more cringey than North Britain. Even more cringey than “up there”. Scotland isn’t just any random selection of Westminster seats, it’s an ancient nation which was one of the founding kingdoms of the United Kingdom. The Treaty of Union which founded the unitary state known as the United Kingdom guaranteed the continuing existence of Scottish national institutions, and the Scottish nation itself. The very foundation of the UK itself recognises that Scotland is a distinct polity within the UK, a polity with its own distinctive political character.
Boris Johnson was forced to concede, amidst the usual disrespectful barracking from Tory backbenchers whenever an SNP MP rises to speak, that it is indeed up to the people of Scotland to decide whether their future is as a part of the UK. He could hardly say anything else. However his admission has an important implication. If it is up to the people of Scotland to decide whether they wish to remain a part of the UK, that right to self-determination is either conditional or it’s absolute. Boris Johnson appears to believe that Scotland’s sovereign right to self-determination as a nation within the UK to decide its own future is conditional upon a timing that he’ll decide. So it’s not really a sovereign right to self-determination at all. If it’s up to political forces outwith Scotland to decide when Scotland can exercise its right to self-determination, then it’s not a right to self-determination. It becomes a question of Westminster’s convenience and permission. A right to self-determination which is conditional upon the convenience and permission of Westminster is no right to self-determination at all. It’s simply another way of stating that Scotland doesn’t have the right, a Conservative PM does.
There was absolutely nothing in the Edinburgh Agreement between the Scottish and British governments setting the terms for the 2014 referendum which stipulated that an independence referendum could only be held once in a generation. The rider that the referendum was a one in a generation affair did not appear on the ballot paper. It was not a part of the question that was put to the people of Scotland and which they voted on.
Alex Salmond described the referendum as a once in a generation opportunity, and was careful to add the rider that this was his personal opinion. Yet it appears that Scotland is to be held hostage to the opinion of a former First Minister, an opinion which has no force in law. The personal opinion of Alex Salmond is only being elevated to the lofty position of holy writ for the simple reason that Boris Johnson requires an excuse to prevent another independence referendum because he’s afraid he’s going to lose it.
The phrase once in a generation opportunity also appears three times in the White Paper on Independence published by the Scottish Government prior to the referendum. On page 3, the referendum is described as a “once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path”. On page 10 it is described as a “once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.” On page 576 there is the statement, “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.”
There are twos reasons why Alex Salmond’s administration took the view that the referendum of 2014 was a once in a generation opportunity. Neither of them are binding, and neither of them apply today. The first reason is that the referendum of 2014 only took place because the SNP broke the D’Hondt system and won the 2011 election with an absolute majority in Holyrood. Prior to this election it was not thought possible for a party to do this, and the SNP’s victory came as a surprise to everyone, not least the SNP. However the referendum campaign radically changed the Scottish political landscape in ways that were unforseen. It is now perfectly plausible for pro-independence parties to win a majority of seats in Holyrood.
The second reason is more important. Alex Salmond’s government took the view that they did because they had just negotiated the Edinburgh Agreement with Westminster, as a result of which both parties agreed to respect the outcome of the referendum. It was implicit in that understanding that both parties would respect the promises and commitments that they made to the people of Scotland during the referendum campaign. What is happening now is that Westminster is demanding that the current Scottish Government upholds everything that it stated during the referendum campaign, but it itself is not bound by its own promises and commitments.
Promises and commitments like telling Scotland that the only way it could remain a part of the EU was by voting no. Promises and commitments like promising that the powers of Holyrood would be enshrined in law and put beyond the ability of any Westminster government to alter without the express consent of the Scottish Parliament. Promises and commitments likes telling Scotland it was a much loved and equal partner in a family of nations, that it should lead within the UK instead of leaving it.
Indeed, it is all the more important for Westminster to uphold its promises and commitments to Scotland because it was the proposition of the No campaign which won the referendum. Yet now the SNP and Scotland are being held to ransom by a Westminster which hasn’t fulfilled its end of the bargain. If Westminster had respected all the promises that it made to Scotland in 2014, then the referendum would indeed have been a once in a generation opportunity. But they didn’t, did they. Westminster cannot insist that the SNP abide by statements that it made during the referendum campaign without itself abiding by the statements that Better Together made.
It’s Westminster’s failure to uphold its end of the bargain that has created the renewed demand and the justification for another referendum. Boris Johnson’s hypocrisy in claiming it was “once in a generation” merely highlights his own party’s failure to respect the promises and commitments that it made to the people of Scotland. When he tells us that the referendum was “once in a generation”, he’s telling the people of Scotland that we are suckers for ever believing that Westminster would keep its promises.
Yet even if there was a solemn commitment made by both sides in 2014 that the referendum was a once in a generation affair, so what? The people of Scotland have a sovereign right to decide for themselves which path Scotland will take – even Boris Johnson admits that much. That right cannot be bargained away, signed away, time-limited, or given up by any political party because it is a right that rests with the people of Scotland, not with the Conservatives, not with the SNP, not with any other party. It follows then that it’s up to the people of Scotland and no one else to decide whether or when we demand another independence referendum. And we demand one now. Scotland’s right to self-determination is inalienable.
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Reblogged this on Ramblings of a 50+ Female.
Is there a question, too, about what constitutes a “generation” in regards to treaties? I’ve been told that the Good Friday Agreement defined a generation as 7 years. Mr Salmond studied history, so perhaps the inclusion of the idea of a generation, generally accepted by historians as about 20 years, was also used in the White Paper on independence to underline the vital nature and seriousness of the decision and even to encourage those who wanted independence at some time in the near future to understand it might (for them, depending on age) be now or never?
No, there isn’t.
There was no treaty agreed that stated once in a generation so your question is irrelevant. Sounds to me you are buying in to Britnat propaganda crap.
The Smith Commision document signed and agreed by all the political parties did say there were no restrictions on any future referendums. Perhaps you should stick to referring to that document.
I’ve been thinking about that Cubby (Smith Commission), but what happened to that statement between Smith and the Scotland Act? Thrown out via amendments?
Once in a generation is not a legal entity in terms of Scottish independence
Which generation is Boris referring to
A new generation of voters have joined us since 2014
Whenever any Unionist politician mentions ‘once in a generation’ it is the job of SNP reps to pin them down on exactly what they’re saying. ‘So what you’re claiming is that the next time a Scottish election mandate will be respected is fifteen years from now? You’re telling the Scottish people their votes will be ignored until 2035? This is what you’re telling them? That for the next fifteen years they don’t live in a democracy?’
Also the job of journalists but I won’t hold my breath on that.
Well said…
“Once in a generation” is just a figure of speech. Bit like “dead in a ditch”.
👍😃
Absolutely!
once in a generation of hamsters
“And we demand one now”
We certainly do and we have voted for it.
This once in a generation/ lifetime crap is just that – crap. It’s the sort of stuff that fascist dictators would spout.
It’s time for our political representatives to step up to the plate and deliver.
And we could help too, Cubby.
Sign up folks.
http://www.crowdjustice.com/case/the-scottish-people-vs-the-uk/
Bravo… Superbly summarised and illustrated…
Right of self determination is recognised in international law. It is recognised in the Downing Street Declaration and the Good Friday Agreement allows for a referendum in N Ireland very seven years. This “right” is now part of the architecture of the UK Constitution and I would imagine the UK State would have difficulty in the Supreme Court, legally differentiating between one part of the UK (with its own historic legal system and constitutional precedents) and another part of the same State over constitutional entitlements.
It should lead to a challenge from the Scottish government (or perhaps a non-SNP entity would be better), as to Scotland’s legal rights. Its well worth a punt and we have nothing to lose.
It might have to be soon, as there is blether about Boris downgrading the Supreme Court from its constitutional role.
Hello Paul – good article and quick in response to the news. When you say that “…even if there was a solemn commitment made by both sides in 2014 that the referendum was a once in a generation affair, so what?” you really capture the true situation. It has always been my position that the SNP or any other party should be able to have a referendum or even the ‘neverendum’ as they call it IF the people vote SNP. Is that not democracy?
Spot on Wynn. If we have a referendum in 2020 and lose I don’t see why if the Scottish people vote for another referendum in the relative near future it shouldn’t go ahead.
Only a fascist dictator like Hitler who after getting voted in says right that’s it democracy ends now and burns down the German Parliament. Democracy is an ongoing process not a once in a generation event.
I remember listening to Corbyn saying that the last election in 2019 was a “Once in a generation opportunity”
Does that mean the Labour party cannot stand at another election?
No I thought not.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17845298.jeremy-corbyn-says-snap-election-will-offer-39-once-in-generation-39-opportunity-change-like-polls-1945-1979/
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼😂
Supplementing and complementing Russell Hamilton:
“We have a once in a generation opportunity to reshape our politics, and give hope to the millions of people who want a fairer, brighter future.”
The speaker?
– Wee Willie Indigestion Tablet, before last month’s General Election.
https://thirdforcenews.org.uk/blogs/election-2019-scottish-liberal-democrats
You always seem to deal – right on time- with the “thing” that happens to be annoying me at any particular moment and this is a great example. Walking my own wee dugs round a big field this afternoon gave me time to get really angry about the chanting again…
They do nothing but chant,”No second referendum! Strong and stable! Get Brexit done! Once in a generation! Four legs good… etc ”
They have been pinning thinking processes down with their chanting for the last 4 years so that otherwise perfectly normal, sane decent people all over England actually voted Tory…. to end austerity???????????
“Chanting” is not a good thing to do. In some parts of Scotland it means putting on a posh accent and uttering drivel.
So let them chant on with their ” once in a generation” ,,,
We have been subjected to that same chanting that befuddled the rest of the Electorate and, despite the best hopes of Dominic Cummings and co, we dumped them( nearly all of them) yet again. “Once in a generation” was apparently the opinion of the Scottish Government 5 years ago. Many of us may have disagreed. Protests against that unconstitutional union 313 years have been going on regularly for 313 years- and they were not limited to “one generation at a time”.
Times have changed- drastically. So we wont be waiting for the Tories to tell us when the new generation begins.
It is not their opinion that counts- AT ALL!
I am 68- and my generation cannot afford to wait. I will be marching with my generation on Saturday.
The dug and me will be there too. Make sure you dress appropriately – it’s forecast to rain!
Me too
I’m 64
I want Scottish independence now
“I want Scottish independence now”
Good so tell your colleagues in the SNP to get on and use the mandate they have been given to have Indyref2 in 2020.
Me three…Scottish Independence now SNP…get a grip…get a move one…
I am 69 and will be marching on Saturday regardless of the weather. Whatever the turnout it will be reported by the Britnat propaganda unit at Pacific Quay as “disappointing” and as irrefutable evidence that there is “no demand for a second independence referendum”. The good news today is that the Royal Family continues to fall apart. Tick tock for Indyref2 and a Scottish republic.
Clive Scott says: at 10:16 pm
Aye Clive maybe not such a good thing that the Saxe-Coburgs are having a rammy cos LBJ an all the rest of the empire brigade will start wave their flegs even harder an rally roond tae defend it.
But there is a solution…
Offer the Scottish Crown to Harry and Megan on the same principals as set out for the Bruce in the Declaration of Arbroath ie
1. He stuffs up an their oot, nae ifs or buts.
2. Its not hereditary.
3. They are self financing.
4. When the time comes we’ll elect another yin, or not.
5. They can have the use of the Scottish royal holdings. Palaces estates etc.(but don’t forget they belong to the people)
What duties he takes on from his grannie on behalf of an independent Scotland would be open to negotiation between him and the people.
Sorry to say auld lizzie widny get much say at awe.
By the by a 50/50 split with Canada is fine by me.
here we go again everyone arguing about Westminster once in a generation pish teresa may ignored the section 30 for 3 years now boris will ignore it for another 11 years snp say westminster cannot keep ignoring Scottish peoples wishes but they keep ignoring us so whats next? is there another route to independence? because the snps way is not working they keep getting ignored
Well firstly we dont want to be condoning or copying the acts of king Billy or King Edward ,king trump or all of the past and present Englands westminsters trouble making violence inducing policies ! So be very carefull not to mention the other options available Billy other than a safe , legal route to Independence !
You are hopefully not a plant Billy like so many others over at WOS !
Gandi Won ! Hitler lost ! The Britnats have lost all of thier other colonies of the world and we are next !
Well said Paul, the point is, that Westminster cannot take away the sovereignty of the Scottish people, nor can Holyrood, nor can any political party across the length and breadth of Britain, and politicians can say what ever they choose, but that does not, did not, ever take away our sovereignty in Scotland.
I believe many politicians have said it is up to the Scottish people, from the Treaty of Arbroath, Maggie Thatcher, The Scotland act, sooner or later it will sink in.
That England has pretended that it owned the sovereign people of Scotland and our land, and we were daft enough to think it must be true because they said so,
We the sovereign Scottish people have to organise our selves into one entity and speak with millions of voices under one legal document to claim our right to be free of being governed from anywhere else, or anyone else other than the people of Scotland, and every one of us should have and hold a copy of that document, no matter whom or which government we choose to represent us in the future, our sovereignty is only on temporary loan to that government, it must be legally stated that the sovereignty is always retained and returned to the sovereign people of Scotland.
If we do not do this, the events of 1707 will repeat themselves, some elite persons who thought to themselves that they could sign away Scotland and its people without asking us, They thought they had sold us for English gold as if we were slaves. It has come back to bite them on the behind, you cannot own or sell something that does not belong to you, even when they thought they had managed this they now find that we are still sovereign over three hundred years later
Is there any one out there on our Scottish sites that is capable of of creating this legal document that retains the sovereignty not only of our people but also of the land and surrounding sea,s , the air we breath and our fresh water supplies, and all mineral that is held under our sovereignty?
James,
WGD already referred to something like this previously:
Source: https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/11/11/a-draft-constitution-for-the-scottish-state/
Then there’s a more up to date version considering modern day thinking:
Source: http://www.scottishconstitution.scot/attachments/article/112/2019.01.12.%20Our%20Scotland.pdf
And if you google “A Constitution for a Free Scotland” you will see older ideas from the SNP (dating from 2002).
I hope this helps.
We leave the EU at the end of the month and then they, Westmonster, get into negotiating UK/EU trade deals. Can anyone tell me if the EU will find itself in the position of becoming more open, vocal, about welcoming an Independent Scotland into the EU at the beginning of February? Or will they still have to stay mostly schtum about it?
Not of immediate relevance, Petra, but I will be exhibiting on behalf of Wales (in a sole capacity – 3 million people on your back are quite heavy) at an Expo in Paris next week. The main purpose of the Expo is to educate French people who wish to emigrate elsewhere (even the UK, Brexit or otherwise) and to learn more about what the host country of their choice is offering them.
As I said, being trilingual I can pick up and share information from French sources, deliver my annual Welsh lesson, and also learn what some Members of the business communities of France, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden and other places are thinking and saying about the UK and perhaps obliquely, my country and yours.
I’ll share with you the link of the Expo if you wish (French only) and I hope to report back to indy supporters (YES Cymru, Leanne Wood, WGD and others) after my experiences in the French capital.
Here’s hoping for a successful mission … and double scotches all round!
Yeah good luck with your mission, WS, and looking forward to hearing from you when you return from your travels X
Thanks for the links Welsh sion, much appreciated, so who if any one is at present working on or towards this and sealing up any future loopholes,
On a different subject I wondered if there was any link between the uk budget being delayed and the comments Boris Jonson made in 2019 that if Scotland choose independence they would have to pay for it. Perhaps his intention is to see if we vote for our independence, before he sends any money up here. He maybe thinks England might be able to manoeuvre Scotland into a place of poverty, like the Darien scheme just before 1707. Just a thought, eyes wide open, etc.
Adam Tomkins, or as wee like to refer to the former Socialist Republican, who decided that there was more money in being a True Blue Tory Loyalist Scourge of the Poor and Downtrodden, (rather like Tom Harris or Lord Darling of Flipper) Professor Two Jobs WATP Adam Tomkins, came a distant third in our Glasgow Anniesland constituency at the last SGE, yet despite we roundly rejecting him, got on the Jobs For The Boys Listory Gravy Train.
Since then we have had a UK GE where the Blue Tories lost seven of their 13 seats, and Ian Murray once again is the Lone Red Tory Gunman, his 6 useless Red Tory Placemats having been kicked out on their arses after a wasted two years. .
The SNP took 47/48 seats on the back of a Stop Brexit Stop the Tories’ Cuts Second Indyref ticket.
But the Blue Tories in England, on 43% of the vote in a FPTP election, have a majority in England, and actually believe that they have the right to drag Scotland out of Europe against our will.
Tomkins was on his feet today at Holyrood ,reaffirming what we all knew.
In his eyes Scotland is a conquered possession of England, and that’s it.
Why he is sitting at Holyrood beats me.
He is not there to serve the people of Scotland. He is there to act as England’s buffer against the Scots.
He doesn’t represent me here in the Anniesland constituency, at Holyrood or WM level, yet, there he is on the BBC Ministry of Truth slapping down the will of the people of Scotland.
It is a democratic disgrace that thus man is anywhere near a position of political power.
He failed and failed miserably yet still he is all over the place; TV radio, the Dead Tree Scrolls, given maximum airtime and column inches by his mates in the Fourth Estate Fifth Column.
WE voted for Pro Independence parties, we voted to Remain in the EU, but we can feck off, apparently.
We are a vanquished colony of England?
I have reached the endof my tether.
We act, and we act now. No more mealy mouthed pussy footing.
At the end of the month, this man Tomkins is going to preside over Scotland being surrounded by barbed wire, and shut off from Europe; we will be under armed House Arrest, because this political failure decrees it so?
I think Not.
Think on it. Adam Tomkins, politicxal failure, is telling ME what I am allowed to do?
Aye, that’ll be shining bright.
.
Jack collatin says at 7:27 pm
Whole heartedly agree with you on this problem.
The Holyrood electoral system absolutely needs to be corrected so that anyone standing for the FPTP section cannot also be a list candidate.
Lets see some action Holyrood t5his is something that can be corrected NOW.
Or does that fall within the reserved powers.
The tories and britnats stated in 2014 that by voting to remain in the UK, Scotland would remain in the eu. They lied. All bets off from that point forward.the tories in Scotland are the most duplicitous + Willie rennie!
What really pisses me off about this current situation, is that a country that was once Independent now finds itself in a position that it needs permission from another country, not to become Independent, but just to be allowed to ask the question.
How the f*** did we get here?
It’s not that we need permission to have an independence referendum we can do that anytime at all without England’s agreement
Without Westminster or BJ agreeing
But we want England’s agreement so that if we win there will be congenial discussions about how to separate and divide assets and return belongings currently on loan.
An actual date and timeline would have to be agreed and reciprocal agreements made so that travel is convenient and trade is smooth once we are independent
Very important we don’t do it brexit style
We will see how much confusion and interruption to supply is caused by brexit
It will give us an idea how much chaos will be avoided when Scottish independence comes about and Scotland and England work on it together.
We got there One_Scot when 55% of Scots handed the power back to Westminster in 2014. 307 years of people fighting to regain our freedom, with some giving their lives to do so, and it was all over when a majority of Scots put their cross in the wrong box.
Whatever happens in the next year or so,the present set of constitutional arrangements cannot continue.
The fudge of devolution,designed to give Scots the impression that they have a say in what happens in Scotland have been completely exposed as the sham that it always was.
The latest fiasco with the threat to have no funding available for our public services is the last straw.
Being dependent is no longer a safe option for Scots.
Brilliant. Parly vous. The Auld Alliance.
Conscription and taxes imposed upon Scotland to pay for the Westminster illegal wars and actions. Including in. France. Vast estates in Normandy & Burgundy. Edward 1. Wales and Ireland illegally subjugated. Since 1928 and before.
Well said Paul.
The actions and words of the PM at PMQ’s today is simply a continuation of the Tory Westminster attitude of GET IT RIGHT UP YOU SCOTLAND !
Any Scot with an iota of pride should be appalled at the treatment of our elected representatives and the arrogance and downright scorn shown to the people of Scotland by this ragbag assortment of fascists/morons / buffoons who have the lack of self-awareness to call, themselves ”Honourable Gentlemen ”.
It is useless raging against these colonial throwbacks – they see themselves , much as some others did in the 1930’s , as the Master Race when it comes to dealing with lesser nations like Scotland .
And as for the performance of the Governor General , Union Jack , at Scottish Questions – well it makes one nostalgic for the benign buffoonery of Fluffy Mundell .
That Scotland and its people are at the mercy of such a collection of third-rate amoebas is enough to make one want to vote for a mental giant like Annie Wells as an MP , if only to double the number of brain cells in the Government ranks .
Time for a referendum or UDI or anything to get the Scottish people up out of their armchairs and stating like Father Dougal ” DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING ! ”
Role on Independence !
Yes but there is worry amongst them too
Much of what you see is false bravado
England will lose a lot more than Scotland when Scottish independence happens
Most people around the world actually think this whole island is England
Some maps describe it so
Some English people describe it so
Once Scotland is independent Wales and NI will do the same and England will shrink back to what it really is
It will no longer require a huge ginormous parliament and a huge House of Lords in fact I reckon they will retire the Scottish welsh and Irish lords they couldn’t have them with an England only parliament
Then there’s the nuclear subs and navy army and airforce
All will shrink to a size befitting a country the size and wealth of england
New Zealand Australia and the commonwealth countries will take another step away from W England too
So there’s much more at stake for England than losing control Scotland
And they know it
That’s why we are getting the buffoonery and insults at present
But once independence becomes a certainty the buffoonery and insults will turn to much harsher spiteful harmful things
It will be like a violent rain storm
Once it’s over
We will shake ourselves down and realise that the superficial damage done to us as a parting shot by England can be repaired quickly with the vigorous confidence of our refound nationhood.
Terence you must be one of the first persons.to hit the nail on the head.westminster unionists will lie.cheat.deceive.do anything say anything no matter what to stop another referendum they cannot no matter what. let there be another referendum.the reason.because it would look like they will most likely loose.and no matter what way anyone wants to dress it up they cannot afford to lose Scotland they cannot let Scotland go on its own way.because at the end of it all it will be England that will be the losers big time.they have over very many years sucked billions of pounds out of Scotland.meaning in years to come England will actually be the poor relations.because i do believe Scotland will be a very prosperous country when it becomes an independent country.i just cannot still believe very many people in Scotland.still keep voting for unionist parties.it is beyond me when you see daily how our proud Scotland is treated.lets get out of this discredited union.and look forward to a proud prosperous Scotland.
Lets get it done.
I vaguely remember reading, ages ago, about citizens of Scotland being asked to sign a (petition/book? I can’t really remember) and that it would be available at the Glasgow Green end of the first AUOB march, for people to sign. It was then to be bound and sent to the UN and a copy to WM.
Does anyone remember it or what happened to it?
Sorry, my mind’s so foggy!
Excuse me a moment, am just having a funny turn after reading possibilities of our future constitution phew am I glad it’s not set in stone, who wants to copy or even mimic dictatetorship governments from around the world or even next door,The people of Scotland must always retain their sovereignty in case of any wayward corrupt government in the future, and the people of Scotland choose wether we are a peace loving nation or chase wars like the other part of uk, the people choose who they align with not a government and I for one would not wish to let any part of Scotland to a foreign army, to fight battles against another country, which could cause retaliation upon Scotland and its peace loving people.
The people should choose their prime minister not an internal select few, how does any one think we chose David Cameron or Teresa May, that’s right, we didn’t. It was done internally by the Tory party,….shudder.
And I still do not understand where “we think” the border between Scotland and England is, compared to where “Westminster thinks” the border is between us is, after all its not that long ago an English politician decided that a chunk of the sea border could be changed to a different angle. We need to end the treaty to regain what originally was ours, can you imagine Westminster arguing how much of Scotland their going to give us back in negotiations after a referendum.
And law is simple, put the people first, and make it stick, then you can decide whom you wish to select to enable the paperwork to be done, the law to be followed, and whom you choose to represent you on a limited scale according to whom the people vote in, otherwise our sovereignty is questionable all over again for our future generations, I was weeping when I read a possible proposed constitution for Scotland, it was like reading the beginnings or middle era of all the other countries that have gone terribly wrong today, with a multitude of frothing complications.
And why not think outside the box when it comes to the actual place the future government in Scotland would sit, I for one am fed up of being ruled by a government far far away, let’s put the government in the centre of its people, not on the outskirts like London is to England, Wales and Scotland, how do you expect the Highlands and Islands to feel, or us lonely people in the northeast of Scotland, whom seldom see our first minister.
Land issues, more people owning half of Scotland than actually live here, just killing wildlife and tax cheating.
Let us tax the hell out of anyone that’s claims they own that much land. And farmers you need to get wise about the the killing you do to a very wide variety of species, from four legged to winged creatures and insects. I can’t remember the last time I heard a grasshopper like when I was younger, nor can I watch trout in a stream swimming or hiding in the shade of a bank any more. And for goodness sake stop cutting down natural trees so you can have bigger fields,the hedgerows are not only beautiful, but provide protection against soil erosion and floods, nature disappears when everyone becomes greedy.
I was raised on the west coast of Scotland where the crofters worked as one with land and animals. Where houses were still inhabited, and every one knew and helped their neighbours. We have a choice to achieve a better way of life in Scotland, working and looking after our country, population and wildlife. Rant over.
Just a thought. I read something a week or two ago that suggested the organisation of a human chain linked from Carlisle to Berwick. This would be something the MSM could not ignore or downgrade to a wee rally. Perhaps the organising team at AUOB could get on board for the summer…..if WM are still refusing to transfer the power for indyref 2. If it goes to civil disobedience then block the A74 and the A1 and all the other roads that cross the border. This is what the French would do let’s take a lead from them they would get out and protest because the bus fares were going up.
Block the roads Malky and p*ss off many Scots, in particular those we want to get on our side, trucks carrying goods, tourists visiting our country and so on. Big difference between us and an independent France.
Why doesn’t SG legislate for a referendum straight away with the question whether independence (referendum) is a matter for Holyrood to settle. I imagine there would be at least 70-75 per cent in favour. After that an independence referendum could be held in autumn.
Alternatively, is there a chance of a snap election?
This is an excellent suggestion. I’d go for two questions, though, both closely linked, to help emphasise question of sovereignty.
1. Do you believe that constitutional matters in Scotland should be decided by
— The Scottish people OR
— The House of Commons.
2. Your question.
The Union is over in more ways than one. The Queen and Prince Philip are on their way out, Randy Andy is over and out and Harry and Meghan are bailing out.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-harry-letter-meghan-markle-palace-response-royal-family-queen-a9276001.html
Had to smile Petra, a poet.
Hahaha Andy! I’m trying to compete with people like Welsh Sion. Marks out of ten? Nought? OK, lol.
Not competing – as I already have the advantage of being Welsh! Half of us are poets, half of us are dreamers and God knows what the other half are like!
Yes, I know, Maths isn’t my strongpoint – but the real point is that we are working together in our different ways to secure indy for both our countries … perhaps, England, too.
Royals slimming down at last. Instead of lecturing others while they over consume. Then obsess about climate change killing the planet. Support an unequal regime and collude in a system from which they have most to gain. Nuclear will destroy the planet yet they are the head of the Armed Forces and engage in illegal war. Tax evade. Then lecture folk with nothing,
Every Referendum brings it’s own conditions and qualification. Referendums are not governed by rules or criteria of what went on or are likely to go after. When circumstances change and voters chose to have another one. The rules and criteria are decided for the present of the one being decided. Especially if vows and promises are broken.
Terms and conditions should not apply as to a previous one or possible future one, That is the point of having one, To decide what people want at that present time. Not the conditions of the past or the likely situation in the future. It is to decide the direction the future would take. To help people decide on it.
In order that they can decide their possible future. At the present time they are held of changing circumstances. No governed by past Referendum rules or possible future ones. It is as of the moment.
The best time to have a Referendum is when it can be won. Piling on the pressure is being done. Getting the argument right and out there. So people can make the right choice of support.
We surely have an inalienable right as you say Paul. However that doesn’t mean we will get it. Fairness and Justice are not part of the British state’s game plan – never have been. No matter how much our elected representatives – our overwhelming majority – stand up and get abused and disrespected in that English parliament, nothing will be achieved without more direct action. From our Scottish leaders and ourselves.
Boris and his English mob will stumble on over the cliff, dragging us with them, We are their safety net, their air bag, their cash cow and money tree. So, they will slowly neuter our parliament, sideline and bypass it, while their pet media tells us how shit a job we are doing. The greater good, the English greater good, will prevail. We must not be there when that happens.
What can we do? March, in our thousands, we have done that. Take our claim, make a stand, declare as individuals that for us the union is over? Yes we can, and pursue some organised civil disobedience. Someone needs to lead that and some mechanism put in place to co-ordinate it.
However what I’d like to see is the SNP and for that matter the wider Scottish parliament, taking more direct action. How many mandates do they need? Talk of waiting until 2021 is madness, we will not have a functional parliament by then and the tories will surely have taken back control of at least one thing by then. Scotland!
Time for some bold moves, so I hope the SNP do indeed have a cunning plan, a plan B, but I’m beginning to wonder. Waiting, cap in hand, for S30 and continued abuse in their den of thieves is not the answer.
Clive Lewis, Labour leader wannabe, is on the ball when it comes to knowing how Scotland is being treated and shouldn’t be prevented from holding Indyref2. What are his chances now of becoming the next Labour leader?
http://www.thenational.scot/news/uk-news/18147490.clive-lewis-no-question-labour-opposing-indyref2-mandate/
And that’s followed up with Andrew Neil, on Politics Live, interviewing the wee sh*t Jack McConnell on that very subject (Clive Lewis). Somehow or another, surprise, surprise, that was also at the end of the programme with McConnell spouting what Alan Bowie spouted yesterday and that is that the SNP / Indyref2 has support from 45% of Scots only.
Beginning to wonder if the BBC propaganda back room boys (or girls) prepare the scrips for the Scottish BritNats.
I wish Alex Salmond had kept his mouth shut about the once in a generation thing. Hindsight is a great thing though. I personally would tell Westmonster to get stuffed and just claim Independence but hey I don’t live in the real world I’ve watched Braveheart too often!
In the temporary absence of Welsh Sion and in the light of the Scottish Government having to wait till March 11th to know what the block grant will be from Westminster.
I say NO MORE CAP IN HAND
I could tell the meaning of a word like serene.
I got some O grades when I was sixteen.
I can tell the difference’tween margarine and butter.
I can say the word”Saskatchewan ” without starting to stutter.
But I can’t understand why we let someone else rule our land.
We’re cap in hand.
I could get a broken jaw from being in a fight.
I know it’s evening when day turns to night.
I can understand why Stranraer lie so lowly.
They could save a lot of points by signing Hibs goalie.
But I can’t understand why we let someone else rule our land.
We’re cap in hand.
We fight – when they ask us.
We boast – then we cower.
We beg.
For a piece of.
What’s already ours.
Once I thought I could make God a bribe.
So I said I was in his lost tribe.
Getting handouts can be so frustrating.
Get in line son, there’s five million waiting
I can’t understand why you let someone else rule your land.
You’re cap in hand.
The Proclaimers 1988
NO MORE CAP IN HAND
Welcome though that is, I ain’t gone, yet, Cubby!
I’m going to Paris on Tuesday and then away for the week – but don’t think you’ve got rid of me, just yet …
Let me give you another article, to.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/indyref2-unavoidable-claims-english-labour-leadership-contender/ar-BBYMpWV
What are you going to do if the Parisians ask you for a song. LOL
Last time at said Expo, I belted out ‘Land of My Fathers’ (in Welsh, naturally), accompanied by a Breton who sang Bro Gozh ma Zadoù in his language. I stick by the adage that I sing like a crow with a sore throat – I delegate my ‘Songs for the New Politics’ to those in Scotland who can.
But have no fear, I can put plenty of heart, soul and hwyl into ‘Hen Wlad fy Nhadau’, at any time.
Don’t forget this is my 17th or so appearance at this Expo and that I’m completely unpaid for my efforts. Further, I used to teach Welsh in Paris for a living, 1997-2001.
A wee prize to the first to find me in the official programme:
https://www.salondutravail.fr/programme-complet?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=&start_time=660&end_time=1020
Kept the best to the end.
FFS 👀 when did you ever hear of a Welshman who couldn’t sing with all his heart, in tune was always optional. My fondest memory was of the most tuneless Welsh supporter in Murrayfield murdering every song that sprang up from the crowd, but hit every note pitch perfect of the anthem… Mind you, he was possibly drowned out 🤣 as the Scots joined in…
Just a thought. If Doris can repeat and rely on the “off the cuff” remark about once in a generation opportunity…. I think We should start repeating (and relying upon) the comments from Maggie and John regarding “if the SNP return a majority of mps from Scotland then they have won a right to independence” (in one or two election….). I forget the exact wording, but sauce for the goose must surely be sauce for the gander?
Sorry to interupt!
I have read a thought provoking post by Sam Seder!
It appears to me to make the somewhat obvious point that the argeuement about agency -versus- inevitability is the fundamental one.
I’d be interested in what you think, as it seems to be another dividing line between Nationalists and, well lets just say, the Establishment.
Didn’t someone once say that a sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result? If so, what does Ian Blackford (and others) expect by asking the same questions over and over again?
The more I watch the performances of our MPs allowing themselves to be humiliated on a daily basis, the more I become convinced that they really are there to settle in, not settle up.
I mean, if we are a Sovereign Nation, why on earth do we need their permission to have an Indyref2. Surely, the very fact that we request a S30 – that will never be granted – clearly implies that permission is needed and all this does is feed the ego of a pathological, lying coward (amongst many other things). And, let’s not forget this S30 request was made in July 2017. WTF are we waiting for? In fact, WTF are we waiting at all?
Repeating the same thing over and over against a braying mob who vilify and jeer may embarrass Scots and initially seem unproductive, but make no mistake it embarrasses most English and beyond even more, but crucially it is not under Pacifier Quay’s control, nor that of #10….
To many English voters the braying donkeys in Parliament are not what they elected, and the more childishly they behave the more empathy for the Scottish condition builds in greater England and Europe. While the pros are engaged in BBCS’s HYS, or comements in the Scotsman or Herald to browbeat viewers/readers, these SNP stalwarts are taking all the flak in WM but essentially bypassing the usual channels. Their viewers are in the millions…. 😉
Don’t take slight from it, the donkeys in Parliament behaving as they do have done more to publicise the justification for scottish independence than anything which came out of Glasgow.. They may think they’ve put the Scots back in the box, but in reality promoted them on the box internationally. 🙂
We wait until the smoke clears, a battle of wits is about to begin, but unlike the donkeys, we will win while they chew on carrots…
As an aside, I truly hope the Glasgow march gets publicity through sheer numbers on national media as it’s about bloody time that mob on the Clyde were bypassed. AUOB have done Scotland a massive service throughout, hopefully this one cannot be buried…
Thank you, Bob.
Perhaps a giant saltire wrapped around the windows of yon lot’s workplace on t’other side of the Clyde…😉
On the 31st October 2019 Jeremy Corbyn launched his General Election campaign with the declaration that “This is a ONCE IN A GENERATION chance to change this country”. The Labour Party, in particular, as well as the Lib Dems took a thumping across Scotland, England and Wales (none of the UK parties stand in Northern Ireland anyway).
So does that mean, by the logic of unionists (i.e. English Imperialists and Servilists from the other nations), that there will be no more general elections for +20 years.
Unionists are at liberty to lie, and they regularly do in the absence of sound argument, but BBC commentators, in particular, have a duty upon them to challenge this hypocrisy when they deny Scotland the right to hold a second referendum on independence.
BBC commentators have a duty to lie to protect their fellow Britnats.
😂😂
Please support this movement to raise a legal action with respect to our right to hold a referendum.
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/the-scottish-people-vs-the-uk/?utm_source=backer_social&utm_campaign=the-scottish-people-vs-the-uk&utm_reference=03fbe84983c326dd250ef6f9b61dcca6&utm_medium=clipboard_copy&utm_content=post_pledge_page&fbclid=IwAR1s7UmHiOrvnlybxoiU5NavzGwwfqsxkSMpJ1DSkJxYllMUdFKmIJPWudI