We’re just one week after the UK’s decision to nuke itself in the foot with Brexit, the Scottish Government hasn’t made any decisions about how Scotland is going to respond, but already the British establishment is mounting Project Fear Mark III in an attempt to prevent any possibility of Scotland going independent. They seem even more terrified of Scottish independence than they do of the UK leaving the EU, from which we can only conclude that despite the scare stories, Scottish independence is going to cost them dear. Because one thing we do all know by now is that the basterts sure as hell aren’t motivated by altruism.
A think tank set up by Thatcherites to explore ways of selling off the country to private interests has published a report warning that an independent Scotland would be like Greece only without the sunshine. This is the kind of news that normal people would generally file under “well they would say that wouldn’t they”, but the UK media isn’t run by normal people. It’s run by the people who brought you Brexit without bothering to trouble their pretty little heads with any investigation of the claims made by the Leave campaign, or indeed even whether they had a plan. Turns out now that they didn’t.
The Centre for Policy Studies campaigned for a Brexit because it believes the UK is better off outside a free trade area, but it wants Scotland to remain in the UK because it tells us we’re better off inside the diminished free trade area outside the EU. The UK media likes to make out that any difficulties will be faced only by Scotland, whereas the rest of the UK will sail on majestically without being buffeted by the waves that Britannia rules. The point that the Daily Mail et al. miss is that if obstacles are put in the way of Scotland’s trade with England and Wales as a result of Scotland becoming independent, then there will also be obstacles put in the way of the rest of the UK’s trade with the EU. The entire point of a second Scottish independence referendum is so that we can remain a member of the EU.
As always, Scotland is dealt with in isolation. But that’s not what’s going to happen in reality. The rest of the UK won’t be able to put obstacles or trade barriers up against Scotland without finding that it has only made its own trade with the rest of Europe more difficult too. The UK Unionist media likes to make out that it will be little Scotland with its 5 million people up against the might of rUK with its 60 million. They don’t want Scotland to remember that as a part of the EU we will have 500 million friends. In trade negotiations between rUK and iScotland, it will be iScotland which has the upper hand.
Anyway, the report isn’t actually a report from the Centre for Policy Studies, as the by line of the report makes it clear that it represents the personal views of its authors. The authors are Daniel Mahoney who is a contributor to Iain Martin’s zoomingly right wing online opinion site CapX, and Tim Knox, who in the role of CPS editor has published papers by leading Conservatives since Thatcher’s days. In other words, a pair of right wing British free marketeers who worship at the shrine of Thatcher say that Scotland is too poor to become independent. Well colour me surprised.
I’ve never really understood why British Unionists believe that they’re doing themselves any favours by constantly making the claim that the Scottish economy is more fragile than Donald Trump’s ego. It seems to have escaped their notice that for the past 300 years Scotland’s economy has been run by Westminster, in the interests of Westminster.
The point can’t be made often enough. We’ve got public institutions which actually function, most people pay tax – unlike in Greece where tax evasion is a national sport. We’ve got impeccable democratic credentials. Scotland is in a geo-politically stable part of the world. We have no territorial claims on anyone, no one has territorial claims on us. Here Scotland is in a quiet and stable corner of the globe, we’re blessed with an embarrassment of natural resources, a highly educated population, four of the world’s top universities, more oil, gas, coal, and renewable energy supplies than we know what to do with, almost self-sufficient in food supplies, fresh water that falls out the skies in annoyingly enormous amounts. If you wanted a recipe for a stable, prosperous, democratic, independent state, you’d list Scotland’s ingredients.
And yet, if we were to believe the British Unionist establishment, an independent Scotland would come into the family of nations burdened with a greater national debt than Greece and would have to slash public spending to the bone, scarcely able to afford to keep the lights on. Uniquely out of the nations of north west Europe, we’d be the poor relatives reduced to begging for crumbs.
But the Unionists who make these claims never pause to think who is responsible for this sorry state of affairs. Because the only answer possible is that it’s the Unionist establishment which has run Scotland’s economy for the past 300 years. I don’t know about you, but “you have to stay a part of the UK because the UK has bankrupted you” isn’t an argument that persuades me that we should remain subject to the tender mercies of those who have bankrupted us and whose management of our economy has been criminally irresponsible.
If there is an economic case against Scottish independence, that can only be because Westminster has run Scotland’s economy in such a lamentable fashion that it has rendered us incapable of supporting ourselves. That is not an advertisement for the benefits of Westminster rule. All that the Unionist doomsayers are telling us is that they have abused Scotland so badly that they’ve left us bleeding to death, and if we stay with Westminster then we can be bled even more.
So Unionists, do yourselves a favour, stop embarrassing yourselves with the Project Fear poverty porn. No one is listening any more. If you want to make a case against independence, try making a positive case for the Union instead of blaming Scotland for your own failures.
Donate to the Dug This blog relies on your support and donations to keep going – I need to make a living, and have bills to pay. Clicking the donate button will allow you to make a payment directly to my Paypal account. You do not need a Paypal account yourself to make a donation. You can donate as little, or as much, as you want. Many thanks.
I’m now taking advance orders for Volumes 3 and 4 of the Collected Yaps. For the special price of £21 for both volumes plus £4 P&P you can get signed copies of the new books if you order before publication, scheduled for mid-July. Covering the immediate aftermath of the independence referendum until the Yes campaign’s destruction of the Labour party in the 2015 General Election, it’s a snarling chronicle of Scottish history.
To reserve your copies, just send an email to weegingerbook@yahoo.com giving your name and your postal address and how many copies you wish to order. You can also order signed copies of all four volumes for the special price of £40 plus £4 P&P.
Signed copies of the Collected Yaps of the Wee Ginger Dug volumes 1 and 2 are available by emailing me at weegingerbook@yahoo.com. Price just £21.90 the pair plus P&P. Copies of Barking Up the Right Tree are available from my publisher Vagabond Voices at http://vagabondvoices.co.uk/?page_id=1993 price just £7.95 plus P&P. The E-book of Barking Up the Right Tree is available for Kindle for just £4. Click here to purchase.
Wee Ginger Dug 
“The entire point of Scottish independence is that we remain a member of the EU.”
Naw it’s no.
That was badly phrased. I’ve altered it to “the entire point of a second Scottish independence referendum is so that we can remain a member of the EU”
The entire point of Independence is that we will get to choose not just whether we want to be in the EU but we will get to choose everything including who governs us.
It’s democracy that is the entire point of Scottish Independence. Who here will vote for May?
If May is the month chosen for a referendum on Scottish independence then I – for one – vote for May. IF – on the other hand – you mean the other May [Theresa] the f**k that.
If May is the month chosen for a referendum on Scottish independence then I – for one – vote for May. IF – on the other hand – you mean the other May [Theresa] then f**k that.
slowly slowly catchy monkey
Well said, Paul.
We are fighting for our very freedom as an independent nation.
One Strand of the next Yes Campaign must be a commuications wing dfebunking, and indeed naming and shaming, the Unionist propaganda and its peddlers.
First the myth comparing Scotland with Greece, must be exposed as the lie it clearly is; thereafter if Brewer, Campbell, Bird, Lerr, and the Unionist Gang use it in future, it can be shot down on the spot, rather like the lie of the 174,000 college places, or the £15 billion black hole in I Scotland’s finances.
We are at war; a war of words, but a fight for our freedom nevertheless.
Next May to commence that struggle suits me. BY then we will have kicked Labour Lib Dem Tory Councils out.
Just as an example of the extent they´ll go to when being ´flexible´ with the truth :
What he said, with knobs on!
[…] Wee Ginger Dug Project Fear’s poverty porn […]
Must admit, soon as I heard of this story I had a. a real sense of daja vu and b. an overwhelming need to sigh heavily.
Didn’t read the piece and didn’t really need to. Two years ago, like most of the indy sites readerships, we read dozens just like it I’m sure. Bluntly? I’m done reading or listening to their pish. I have no reason to, none in the world.
I have a government with a proven, prudent fiscal record and representatives I trust to work in the interests of the Scottish electorate. What some think tank says and some bog roll blindly reports, holds precisely zero interest for me these days.
‘Sides we’ve got a new media we’ve come to trust who will do their homework and talk to us rather than at us. 🙂
Too right! And speaking of new media, here’s one which has exposed Radion Scotland bias http://indyref2.scot/youre-listening-to-radio-north-britain#comment-11724
The farrago of farce that has taken place at Westminster since June, 23rd, proves once and for all that we need to be shot of this mob of incompetents. Hardly any mention of the real people who are going to be affected by their actions, only the “party” is important. Frankly, they make me sick.
Thank goodness we have a Scottish Government who are standing up for the people of Scotland, and however the the Westminster pantomime plays out, at least we know there are good people looking after our intrests.
Such was the poverty that the Act of Union caused Scotland in 1712 was the first call for Scottish home rule which was refused by the speaker ” we have caught you and we shall keep you”
Reblogged this on Bampots Utd.
“We’ve got impeccable democratic credentials. Scotland is in a geo-politically stable part of the world. We have no territorial claims on anyone, no one has territorial claims on us. Here Scotland is in a quiet and stable corner of the globe, we’re blessed with an embarrassment of natural resources, a highly educated population, four of the world’s top universities, more oil, gas, coal, and renewable energy supplies than we know what to do with, almost self-sufficient in food supplies, fresh water that falls out the skies in annoyingly enormous amounts. If you wanted a recipe for a stable, prosperous, democratic, independent state, you’d list Scotland’s ingredients.”
Billboard exposure required for this quotation, Paul.
As you say, if Scotland is an economic basket case, what does that say about the nature of this wonderful 300-year old Union? The population ratio in England’s favour in1707 was 5:1 and now it is about 12:1.
Any chance of a Scottish “journalist” asking such a question of a Yoon like Tank-Straddler Davidson? She will be on again soon repeating, “England is our biggest trading partner” ad nauseam.
Och, why ask? And therein lies our major problem.
This “England is our biggest trading partner” business says to me we need to expand our trade with other markets and emphasises the case for remaining part of the EU. Do we want to be an outward looking nation expanding our economics ties with the rest of the world or a wholly-owned subsidiary of the UK, over-reliant on trade with one market, run by the very people who control our economy and set the terms we trade under? What competent business relies on selling to just one customer and then gives that customer a controlling interest in the company?
I’ve never heard them explain why it is that having “bankrupted” us and having to make huge fiscal transfers north to keep us from eating grass, they still don’t won’t to let us go. If it were true, you’d think we’d be doing them a favour to go our own way.
The governor of the bank 0f England said that Scotland has assets worth over more than a trillion pounds . they don’t want to let us go until they have drained us of that.
“I am tremendously impressed with Nicola sturgeon’s efforts to ensure Scotland retains membership of the EU after the UK leaves it. If she is successful I shall immediately fly to Brussels to negotiate a similar deal for my house and garden”.
So what does Joe Roberts of St Austell Cornwall mean with his letter to today’s i paper? That he wants Cornwall to remain in the rUK, or, that if tiny tiny Scotland can have its own EU membership then he too – if we are not all sticking together, selfishly, wants the same?
A second letter in this paper – ” So Scots have been ordering thousands of Iceland replica football shirts….It proves the old Scottish saying, there is nothing that gives a Scotsman more pleasure than to see an Englishman in pain”.
Letters published by a newspaper that would desire to be regarded as a serious publication.
In response to your article, and the paragraph beginning;
‘The point can’t be made often enough ….”
If I had a pound for the number of times I made this case in Indyref campaigning.
We really do need to plough our own furrow.I wish England no pain, I just wish to be independent of their ways and attitudes.
Whether Cornwall was ever legally incorporated into England and therefore later the UK is at least debatable. It should probably have a status something like the Isle of Man.
Awoke this morning to the sound of the OO band marching near my home. Divide et Imperum has been and is a main strategy of the Unionist establishment. It has been a very successful means of social control and it is forever being used. The recent referendum is a classic example.
The OO is yet another example. Psychologically it has been powerful in dividing communities thoughts of the worth of their neighbours.
I look forward to the day when this abhorrent organisation is viewed as historically one of the most terrible mistakes of the Union in Scotland.
I just look forward to the day when people will make decisions about Scotland’s constitutional position on the basis of looking to the future of 21st Century Scotland and not the past of 17th Century Ireland.
The deficit UK wide is getting worse. These think tsnks do not think, they propagandise.
They bade their propaganda on their assumptions and skewed constructs and call it objective discourse.
They are as predictable as the frequent sightings by Fallon of Russian planes being “escorted” away when they were actually in international airspace.
We have not had any recently. but one will ne along soon.
The UK ay Westminster has had no plan for Engxit; they do mot know how to proceed with the negotiations after invoking Article 50. Feart!!
I feel we are all aware of these prophets of doom and dismiss them.
Perhaps, these tanks should focus on England and Wales’ precarious position post Eng-Welshxit.
They have scunnered the EU and will get naewhere.
You nail this at the end. We are supposed to stay in the UK because we are worse off than other parts of the UK. How can that be a reason to stay? Of course there may be some some short to mid term pain, but for the sake of future generations, it’s time to make the break.
“I’ve never really understood why British Unionists believe that they’re doing themselves any favours by constantly making the claim that the Scottish economy is more fragile than Donald Trump’s ego. ”
This is for me what gets right to the heart of the matter. The belief in Scotland as nothing more than a wretched dependent. You saw that in Osborne’s “Sermon on the Pound” – Scotland was simply allowed to use the pound, and we had contributed nothing to its success. Oh how they cheered. When the GERS report comes out to shame and humiliate us, how they line up to cleanse themselves in the warm pish from Westminster.
The very concept of Scottish/British identity appalls me now. I feel repelled and quite nauseated by it. There is also the disturbing notion, brought to the surface after Brexit that Scotland and its people are the UKs play thing. To be humiliated and tormented. Look at Tomkins pathetic charge that Scotland did not vote for remain. It was nothing more than a region of the UK and the UK voted leave, so that’s the end of that. Scotland. Denied to have its voice heard in this “Union of Nations”. But to the Arch unionist Tomkins, Scotland is nothing more than Northern Britain. His contempt for Scotland as a nation is a matter of record.
Scotland is nothing to him but voting fodder for Westminster. And how the yoons revel in their lack of worth and poverty of spirit.
In my heart, body and soul I am sovereign, Independent and Scots. The only thing British about me is that my nation is part of the British isles. Britishness is nothing more than a collective pro-noun. Now all I seek is to see my Nation governed by people voted in by Scots. No more to be held hostage to the whims of English voters. No more to be tormented by the likes of Tomkins.
I will settle for nothing less than full fat Indy. Thats my line in the sand.
Well said. I am with you
Not only “voting fodder” David. Also a cash-cow.
According to Westminster Scotland and N.Ireland, who both voted remain count for nothing and our voices are always drowned by the cacophany from England.
We are nothing but regions in the UK and, as David said, the UK voted leave, so that’s the end of that. This will be an important point to make in the next Indyref campaign.
I honestly don’t think we can be bound to England forever – we have a right to self determination and this is the time to use it.
PS have The Dug’s supporters seen this news?
“The European Union’s next President Robert Fico (Prime Minister of Slovakia), who will take over presidency of the EU on Monday, has offered to help broker a velvet divorce for Scotland from the rest of the UK if Scotland votes to become an independent nation”.
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/next-eu-president-offers-velvet-divorce-scotland/
Yes. I saw that. Also we’re now besties with Ireland, and the German Vice-Chancellor has stated that an independent Scotland would be welcome in the EU.
Next up for presidency of the Council of the European Union is Malta (from Jan 2017), and then in July they hand it over to…. wait for it … Great Britain!
(Or Scotland…..? 😉
Is that the Malta that became independent in the early 1960s after they held a referendum to decide to split from the UK? That Malta?
Did anyone at the time suggest that Malta was ¨too wee¨?
I imagine by July 17 the UK would have gave the Article 50 notification. Once that is done the UK is deemed a ‘supplicant’. It has no other dealings with the EU other than the negotiation of it’s exit. Therefore I very much doubt that the other 27 states will confer the EU presidency on the UK. It would be fun though if somehow they wangled it to give it to Scotland in lieu of the UK!
This article saved for future use. 😉
Great article, one of your best. Comments excellent too. YES for Scotland.
This is an excerpt from the FMs speech in Holyrood yesterday:
“So allow me to reflect on who we are in Scotland today. We are more than five million men and women, adults, young people and children, each with our own life story and family history, and our own hopes and dreams.
“We are the grandchildren and the great grandchildren of the thousands who came from Ireland to work in our shipyards and in our factories.
“We are the 80,000 Polish people, the 8,000 Lithuanians, the 7,000 each from France, Spain, Germany, Italy and Latvia. We are among the many from countries beyound our shores that we are so privileged to have living here amongst us.
“We are the more than half a million people born in England, Wales and Northern Ireland who have chosen to live here in Scotland. We are the thousands of European students studying at our universities and our colleges. We are the doctors and nurses from all across our continent and beyond who care for us daily in our National Health Service.
“Whether we have lived here for generations or are new Scots, from Europe, India, Pakistan, Africa and countries across the globe we are all of this and more. We are so much stronger for the diversity that shapes us.
“We are one Scotland and we are simply home to all of those who have chosen to live here, that is who and what we are.”
“we carry ourselves with dignity, we treat others with respect, we celebrate our differences”. (ends)
This is a couple years old, but it’ll give you an idea of the numbers we’re talking about.
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/scotland-census-profile
Their rights are our rights and our laws, our democracy now theirs. The rights and well being of all Scots, regardless of point of origin are now under serious threat.
Any indyref has to be seen through the prism of defending that democracy and the rights of all Scots to choose their own future. Westminster had its chance to make good on the aftermath of indyref 1. They failed through a mixture of arrogance, ignorance and downright petulance. If we’re lucky, we’ll get that second chance to put their failure behind us and make a better start for all of us.
Oh beautifully put Macart!!!
As you say Paul this piece of neoconservative fluff from the COS deserves nothing but contempt.
The logic of their argument is that we need rUK to “enable” us.
We’ll no thanks – I choose self-reliance.
A Scotland in the EU would, as you say, be entitled to trade with rUK on the same basis as rEU. No-one can seriously say for one minute that rUK could survive without an EU trade agreement.
So it’s all a non-starter if people say we would be shafted if we let go of the rUK apron strings.
As you rightly point out Scotland has all the ingredients for a stable democracy.
The problem that rUK has is that it has a poverty of such ingredients. That is their big problem and that is why they fear “losing” Scotland so much.
Sorry – typo – CPS
I made you a picture. Feel free to use/share/ignore as you see fit. 🙂 We luv the dug!
https://goo.gl/photos/QW6DjgRC97TL7G63A
Post-Brexit, i have noticed in all the commentaries, that when journalists use the phrase the nation, or the country, it is evident that what they clearly have in mind is England. This is especially true when referring to the Tory or Labour party leadership contests. It is as if to use the phrase UK, or Britain is just a form of tedious political correctness. This is all to the good.
Those living here, who had previously voted no (bless) and who are still suffering from the Unionist Stockholm Syndrome, will hopefully see our Lords and Masters in a more revealing and true light and come to their political senses in time to come.
This is where the REAL work will be, in assisting these voters to change their hearts and minds.
Loved Nicola’s speech.
After independence for Scotland, there will be no UK so therefore no rUK.
Possibly dUK; together with the adjective ‘lame’
John.
I love the smell of pedantry in the morning ☺
Glad to have been of service.
John.
☺
Sory all; I had missed your post JMacR, and had posted this below. I agree.
! Is it not time to stop using the “rUK” terminology? In the the event of iScotland there is simply NO OTHER kingdom to be united with. How about “EWNI”?
Or maybe WENI?
Whose clock is wrong today??
My previous comment is 1 hour behind my computer !!
John.
Sussed it, my computer is on BST, and the blog is on GMT or Zulu time.
Makes sense to me anyhow.
John.
PS Sorry for the O/T witterings. (penitent face thingy)
>>We have no territorial claims on anyone
Oh I don’t know. After indy we could ask for a plebiscite in Berwick!
! Is it not time to stop using the “rUK” terminology? In the the event of iScotland there is simply NO OTHER kingdom to be united with. How about “EWNI”?
A propos those ‘doon sooth’ proposing rebuilding Hadrian’s wall;
Re defining the border south to the Tine, should automatically return a few oilfields to Scottish waters.
Oh no!! we’re doomed I tell you, doomed. All that burdensome oil.
John.
That Scotlands economic position is the product of three centuries of Westminster rule is beyond debate. Indeed, if we had a Norwegian style economy, the benefits of UK membership would be loudly proclaimed by Westminster as having brought this about.
We will shortly begin to hear what our ever increasing share of UK national debt will become in the years ahead dependent on what deals are struck with the EU or more importantly – not struck. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already abandoned his deficit elimination plan (no doubt to his.own relief before he had to do so for more predictable reasons)
Let’s start to factor in the debt that the Westminster is set fair to accumulate (and apportion to Scotland) into the foreseeable future, because of arrogant stupidity and unpalatable projects like Trident. Let’s see how many want to follow that path.
With fresh water continuing to fall out of the sky in an annoying large amount (yes, its summer), I spend the day inside catching up. Unsurprisingly, Project Fear Mk.III is getting into full swing with this pish being peddled analysis fress by the MSM, including the Gruaniad’s Servile Carrell’s piece which the editor must realise is pish since no comments are allowed.
You don’t really need to read more than, “The Centre for Policy Studies … was established in 1974 by Sir Keith Joseph and Margaret Thatcher”, to have your pish alert sensors overloading.
It has been reported elsewhere (link below) that the data used to calculate Scotland’s revenues (GERS) are, “…inherently inaccurate and subject to potential bias”. ‘Nuf Said.
http://www.jamcuthbert.co.uk/papers%201/A%20CRITIQUE%20OF%20GERS.doc
O/T we watched the First Minister’s excellent speech at the Holyrood opening ceremony and noted that while the one of Germany ancestry sitting opposite would be reassured, the one with Greek might not be as that nationality was omitted. Next time maybe, he ought to come bearing gifts – perhaps a castle or two.
I think the “closing the border” guff is, like currency, another red herring.
The UK has had an “open border” agreement with a “foreign power” (namely the Republic of Ireland) since 1923 in the form of a common travel agreement.
It was another 50 years before either of them joined the EU and another 15 years after that before the “single market” was ratified.
There is absolutely no reason why a CTA could not exist between Scotland and England and between Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Of the net immigration to the UK of 330,000 in 2015 less than 50% came from the EU under freedom of movement and therefore not subject to rigorous customs and immigration procedures on arrival.
That means such procedures are and have to be in place for the over 50% who are non-EU. These facilities are found at port of entry so there is no need for check points between Scotland and England.
This would not change if an independent Scotland was in the EU and England or Northern Ireland were not.
In addition England, Wales and Northern Ireland will have to come to a trading arrangement with the EU that will almost certainly negate any excise issues between EU Scotland and non-EU England, Wales and NI.
It’s time to tackle the misinformation of Project Fear III now. We need to organise for Indyref 2 now so that we ate ready to roll as soon as called to do so.
The red herrings can easily be rebuffed if we all have the knowledge to do so and we must start acquiring that knowledge now.
RE: Open border/CTA
Pretty much.
When England/Wales and possibly NI exit you would indeed be travelling from one area of legislation to another. Having said that, I agree wholeheartedly, negotiating trade deals and movement between neighbouring states is what government and statecraft is all about.
What truly requires stamping on in this argument is the claim that trading and movement will instantly stop. Either a. the proponent of such an argument is disingenuous, or misinformed at best – or – b. They are openly threatening the Scottish electorate at worst.
They must be challenged to explain their reason for instantly ceasing to trade with a neighbour without recourse to seeking any mutually beneficial negotiation or agreement. The answers from those challenged, I’m sure, will prove fairly interesting.
But the CTA between RoI and UK operated for 50 years pre-EU and throughout that time when you crossed the border you were moving between different areas of legislation and jurisdiction.
Yet the border was largely unmarked.
Even within the UK as currently structured when you cross the border between Scotland and England you change areas of legislation and jurisdiction, all be it conforming to overall European law where that applies (and there are lots of areas of the law in which it doesn’t)
Badly put in my post Steve. What I’m saying or meant to say is the only change introduced would be legislative and that nothing else need change massively from where it currently stands. The only reason they raise such a spectre at all is simply to imply threat.
As I said above, I agree wholeheartedly with your post.
And me with all your posts ☺
“Yet the border was largely unmarked” – it wasn’t you know Steve. there were always customs and police checks – smuggling was rife particularly during WWII as the republic was neutral and there was no rationing of any foodstuffs or clothes and shoes.
During the 30 years civil strife in Northern ireland unapproved roads were closed off and British Army patrols and watch-towers were added to the border checks. That all stopped with the GFA and the people don’t want to go back to that type of life
In any case it wouldn’t be a border this time- it would be an EU frontier, which seems a rather more serious affair
Fair points – but for much of its 100 years it was a fairly porous border – with all the good and that that entails
“There is absolutely no reason why a CTA could not exist between Scotland and England and between Scotland and Northern Ireland”.
I read somewhere that would be a subject of the EU-UK exit negotiations, always supposing article 50 is ever triggered..
If iScotland (and a re-united ireland) remain within the EU then our arrangements with England and Wales will have to be agreed upon with the rest of our partners in the EU.
Individual arrangements like the 100 year old English-Irish Common Travel Arrangement will not necessarily be approved and ratified. Though they maybe, of course.
If Scotland gets its independence in time we’re looking at the possibility/opportunity of complete break away from England, and realignment along new axes of power, trade, economics, etc.
I find it very exciting and really hope events move in our favour
440Million Friends in The EU once FUK exits.
I was about to point that out.
Presently a lot of the goods trade between Scotland and rUK is hard to identify because goods move in an out of English ports. Goods both imported and exported. But some of the trade into Scotland is the result of English merchants having agencies for goods imported from other member states. I know that some companies in Eire have direct access to factories in Italy and Germany where I have to go through English middle men.
An independent Scotland in the EU would create commercial opportunities which would permit importing from other member states without paying English middle men. This is bound to increase efficiency and lead to lower prices or higher margins and thus an increase in Scottish wealth all on its own. There would be greater benefits to Scotland of “on shoring” if England and the EU throw up tariffs per WTO rules. Then there are things like pension funds ( where our once strong sector was taken over by now foreign firms ), banking and insurance services. I cannot see Scots insuring or saving with non domiciled firms. Especially if they are not in the EU.
If the EU were to encourage freight links between members – say Rosyth to Rotterdam ferry services, it could encourage diversity in trade and closer European integration, as well as being far more ecologically friendly than trucking goods through a non EU member which is publicly espousing sanctions on the free trade between EU members.
I can see one big problem. Aberdeen, Orkney and Edinburgh seem to be big employers of English people ( many No voters and RDP/Liar Party voters ). If England does not permit free movement of people, or an open border arrangement such as exists in the Nordic area between Norway and the EU, will that not create issues for the English people working in independent EU member Scotland? Free movement is clearly in England’s interest when Scotland is independent. We will have to offer those people strong reassurances about their personal situation in Indyref2 – or find a way of disenfranchising them as Mr Cameron did to EU nationals last week.
I don’t see how English people living and working in Scotland could not benefit in the same way other ex-pats around the world benefit. They could essentially pay their taxes in Scotland, perhaps on a slightly reduced rate (or company pays as happens in other countries), stay out of England (90day rule) and be tax free from there.
Believe me when I say that pretty much every single contractor I know would bite your hand off for that.
Big enough incentive? I think so.
I certainly agree with every other point you’ve made – kudos to you Sir.
It is simple. Irrespective of the pros and cons of the EU, first priority is to become independent from Westminster.
If there are those in Scotland who do not want us to remain in the EU, then we can take that forward from within Scotland.
To continue to remain in the UK is to commit annihilation!
Get real, folks!!
The UK has ko’ed itself. Time to go.
Yes. My preference is to leave both unions, primarily UK.
You don’t reject the slightly less than perfect because it’s imperfect.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
unless the people who voted NO are presented with what was promised and what was delivered we will get nowhere against the constant drip drip drip from the BBC , any interview with that organisation it must be pointed out they directly and to the presenter personally they distort and tell lies even to the point of cutting the interview short unless interruptions are dropped .
ask a question wait for the answer if not walk and make it clear why.
BBC Scotland Sunday politics today goes beyond parody.
There is no Labour party in Scotland. Ruth Davidson is a joke.
We have 56 Pro Independence MPs, an Independence Government returned for a record third term, yet Brewer and Co cannot find a representative of the people, to put the Pro EU Independence case. I hope Professor Robinson is tallying all this Brit Unionist propaganda and lies.
Are we to believe that there is not one single member of the BBC Team pro Independence?
We hear the views of a rejected Labour MP, the editor of the ‘Courier’, Henry McLeish FFS, and 12 minutes of the Wee Red Dwarf proposing that we sit on our hands for three years while her new Tory Boss forces Scotland out of Europe. We overwhelmingly rejected you and your 31 hangers on at the ballot box, Ms Davidson. Who cares what you and your Little Englanders think?
Referendum II within 2 years is a must. I refuse to be dragged out of the EU by English xenophobes, and the wee Unionist Branch Offices Up Here.
The fight for our very freedom starts now.
You are either with us, or you have handed our country to Tory England for ever.
In the name of god, we cannot let that happen.
Hear, hear
I think people underestimate just how bad the xenophobia has become in England, but infects Scotland also. These are seriously worrying times.
Well said Jack.
Something of note over the past several days across various sites.
Folk dispirited because they still encounter those individuals or groups completely opposed to the thought of independence despite the mountain of evidence pointing to the catastrophic failure, ineptitude and betrayal of the Westminster system.
There is absolutely no need to feel low or dispirited. The shear reality is that there are and always will be those who are fully ideologically opposed to the idea of Scotland as an independent nation state. They cannot and will not be reasoned with. They believe what they believe regardless of evidence. You may as well show dinosaur bones to a creationist and personally invite them to a one on one chat with Stephen Hawkings. Changing their beliefs is NOT going to happen.
If there is to be a second referendum I reckon we need to concentrate on the soft no or independence ‘not yet’ group of indyref 1. Those who reasoned their vote toward no last time round (for whatever reason that may have been). Social media has been awash in the past week with such converts. They need to be kept on board and encouraged to spread the word to folk in their circle.
From this time on we cannot afford recriminations, or back biting. This is way too important. This time our inalienable democratic rights are very much at risk. The rights of every Scottish citizen regardless of point of origin.
Make no mistake, Scotland IS a nation, but becoming a nation state is, IMO, the ONLY way of protecting those democratic rights and our freedom to choose.
Last week saw what we know as ‘the democratic deficit’ in action. We saw every corner of the UK vote, two nationalities for one outcome and two for the other. Our nation voted by a sizeable margin to remain within the EU… It didn’t matter. The larger population of the next door neighbour decided our electoral fate in a heartbeat. That is not democracy and that is not a union of equals.
The political union of the UK as it stands needs to end. We are demonstrably on wildly differing political, societal and cultural paths. If you previously voted no in 2014 and read this site, we could use your help to right this wrong.
Just caught up with this, Macart. Agreed. If we push wavering No voters, they will resist. If we want them to stop resisting, we must stop pushing them. But there are dyed in the wool Unionists who will brook no argument.
Looks like Amanda Leadsom is to be the new Thatcher.
With the Labour Party self combusting, England is looking forward to at least two decades of Ultra Right Wing Tory Rule. There will be no society left by then.
We must strike now, in a measured but fierce campaign for Independence.
The summer will pass and we must act, and act in Unison.
A Rainbow Alliance, without petty schisms on the Far Left, or Right of Centre.
The prize is self determination, nation statehood. Nothing less will do.
I feel that we are fighting for our very freedom now.
I fear for our English neighbours; I really do.
[…] mismanagement of Scotland means that if nothing changed after independence, then we’d be Greece without the sun. We’re seeing Leavers scoffing at “experts” for their portents of doom and gloom […]
Scotland has NO sovereignty in the incorporating Union of 1707! It is a pretence union. With EVEL there is now a de jure in- built mechanism for English domination. The apologists for the Union in the past overlooked the de facto EVEL. English Votes for EVERYONE’S Laws.
Remaining in the UK means more of the same and out of the EU.
As Brexit is activated through Article 50 – we may have a long wait as the English parties are dithering, (English votes for everyone’s laws again), we need to establish our pathway out of the UK towards independence in Europe. After all, 63% of Scots voted for remaining in the EU. Time for Scottish votes for Scottish Laws!!
Yes voters who wish to leave the EU, bide your time. The route through the EU is the way to leave Westminster. Then we can decide for ourselves. They surely cannot scupper this opportunity. Would they rather remain thirled to Westminster? Hitch a ride pm the back of the 63% Scottish vote!
Sharing sovereignty with the other members of the EU is more advantageous to Scots than having no veto in Westminster! Lets get real for once!
Well done WGD this article clearly identifies the elephant in the room, a union with England is not the enemy, Scotland’s nemesis is Westminster’s incredible mismanagement of her economy and finances. To win Inderef2 requires 5-7% of unionists to cross the floor. So the problem we have in Scotland is not a union with England (or anyone else) per se, but the nature of the union we have. The SNP must change tack and articulate the real problem and the solution, in a global economy no country is truly independent, cooperation in trade, investment, currency, defense, human rights, education, health and social reforms, etc cannot be negotiated without the opportunity to manage our own economy and finances. The argument for independence is not a binary choice between a union with England or not, it is far more nuanced and must start from the position of holding the reins of our economy in our hands. A progressive Scotland in a union with a progressive government in England is not toxic, but it only becomes feasible if we have a union of equals with an equal say in the how the union is constructed and the very reasons for it’s existence. We do not need to alienate Scottish people who want a union with England, the YES movement simply need to point out an Independent Scotland will be in a position to negotiate a better union with England….