The SNP has announced a new date for the special independence convention which was originally scheduled to be held on March 19 but was postponed due to the resignation of Nicola Sturgeon. The event was intended to give SNP members the opportunity to decide how to proceed with achieving a vote on independence in the face of the UK Supreme Court’s ruling that the Scottish Parliament does not have the legal authority to hold an independence referendum without the consent of Westminster and the refusal of the Labour, Conservative, and Lib Dem parties to accept that the current Scottish Parliament has a mandate for an independence referendum despite the fact that the issue of another independence referendum dominated the last Holyrood elections and the parties opposing another referendum lost by a significant margin.
It has now become evident that the Westminster parties will only accept the outcome of democratic events in Scotland if they produce a result which is acceptable to them. We also see this in the outcome of the 2016 EU referendum in which Scotland’s resounding vote against leaving the EU has been discounted by both the Labour and Conservative parties. Had the outcome of the 2014 independence referendum produced a 55% victory for the Yes campaign, it seems clear with the hindsight of everything that has happened in British politics since then that the Westminster parties would have found some means, however dubious, of refusing to accept the result. They don’t call it perfidious Albion for nothing.
The SNP’s special independence conference will now be held in Dundee on 24 June at Caird Hall in Dundee. The previous conference had been due to debate whether the party should contest the next UK General Election as a de facto independence referendum, whether to use the next Holyrood election for this de facto referendum, or to adopt some other strategy for breaking the log jam of the refusal of the Conservative and Labour parties to recognise the Scottish Parliament’s democratic mandate for another independence referendum.
In an article in the National on Sunday, First Minister Humza Yousaf said that he would make an announcement shortly on a summer of independence campaign activity to take a positive message to every corner of the country. During his campaign for the party leadership he promised to set up regional assemblies across Scotland “to bring together and harness the energy of our members to discuss how we cross the line and win independence.” Work on organising these has been underway and an announcement can be expected soon.
Of course the usual suspects are unhappy, claiming that the Dundee event is only being organised in order to give the First Minister an ‘excuse’ for not addressing the AUOB march and rally being held in Stirling the same day, or that it is a ‘betrayal’ because the event is being billed as being “solely focused” on how to hold a legally-binding referendum, which some are taking to mean ‘how to extract a Section 30’ order from a Westminster that keeps saying no. Naturally supporters of other parties are going to attack the SNP, they have their own party agendas to promote.
However it means no such thing. SNP deputy leader Keith Brown, who made the comment about the event being solely focused how to hold a legally binding referendum, went on to add: “We have won election after election and have a cast iron mandate for a fresh independence referendum – but the Westminster system is refusing to respect Scotland’s democratic wishes. As the only mass membership political party in Scotland we are calling on our members – the lifeblood of our party and movement – to help us secure that key vote that our country needs.” He made no mention of going cap in hand begging for a Section 30 order, indeed his comments make it clear that he does not expect any such order to be forthcoming.
The Scottish Government’s independence minister Jamie Hepburn defended the decision to hold a special convention just for SNP party members and answering a question about the involvement of the wider independence movement said: “Of course, yes, the independence cause doesn’t belong to the SNP. It belongs to the wider independence movement. The SNP is part of the wider independence movement, and of course in advance of a General Election it is entirely right that we consider what our particular platform will be.”
There is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. As I pointed out above, I have no confidence at all in assurances from the Westminster parties that they will respect the outcome of any Scottish vote which does not give a result to their liking. Under what passes for a British constitution there can be no such thing as a legally binding referendum, and as such Keith Brown’s choice of phrasing was unfortunate. The 2014 referendum was not legally binding, the Conservative Government of the day merely made a political promise to respect the result. We have all seen what happens to Tory promises to respect Scotland. David Cameron’s government could not legally compel any future Westminster government to abide by his promise. This runs directly against the doctrine of the absolute sovereignty of Westminster which is so fetishised by British nationalists. Indeed during an interview on Good Morning Scotland on Monday Keith Brown made clear that what the party was seeking was a lawful vote on independence.
In the UK there can only be lawful votes and campaigns in which all parties participate, and by doing so implicitly recognise their democratic legitimacy. What the SNP needs to bring about is a vote on Scottish independence in which the anti-independence parties participate and which the British Government cannot rule as being unlawful. It would certainly do so if Holyrood attempted to pass a bill to bring about another referendum. However the British state cannot rule that it is unlawful for the SNP and other pro independence parties to fight the next UK General Election or the next Holyrood election as de facto referendums, neither can it rule it unlawful for the SNP to make the transfer to Holyrood of the power to hold another referendum a condition of SNP MPs propping up a minority government at Westminster. Speaking on Sunday Jamie Hepburn insisted that using the next General election as a de facto referendum was still an option under consideration.
We are now making progress toward the SNP having a clear strategy for obtaining a lawful vote on Scottish independence, and despite the usual chorus of criticism that is to be welcomed.
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Wee Ginger Dug 
Sorry there, so caught up in reading and listening to my father I mailed your post back to you. Enjoy all your posts.
Well said.
The lead political party for independence needs to discuss this and soon. I had a worry that it would not take place. If others want to have a rally great go along to it. If you aren’t an snp member then you can’t attend anyway. We can 2 events all looking towards independence. AUOB doesn’t have the right to dictate to the SNP membership or vice-versa. The petted lip by some doesn’t wash with me.
Listening to the Nolan show today- much better than Call Kaye where the border poll in NI was being discussed. A representative from The Belfast Telegraph stated the snp was a one person band and is now years behind in independence. It seems to be a conference on independence is what the snp party needs. As for other groups really up to them.🏴
Reblogged this on Ramblings of a now 60+ Female.
“Christine Bell: The Legal Status of the ‘Edinburgh Agreement’”
https://www.scottishconstitutionalfutures.org/OpinionandAnalysis/ViewBlogPost/tabid/1767/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/431/Christine-Bell-The-Legal-Status-of-the-Edinburgh-Agreement.aspx
“It is unlikely that either side will want to breach the agreement, so why should we care whether it is legally binding or not? Well it is interesting, is it not, to know? Is the Edinburgh Agreement a legal agreement? Or just a political agreement? If a legal agreement, what sort of agreement is it, and how might it be enforced? If a political agreement, what are the social and political mechanisms for enforcement and do any legal methods of enforcing it remain?”
I wonder how “unlikely” it is these sick Tory days.
Makes a fair argument for using the Treaty of Union as the legal and binding route out of the union.
Anyways, as far as the SNP conference being SNP members only for the SNP to set its policy, a policy which could increase or decrease the SNP MPs elected for Westminster, those SNP candidates being selected by SNP members, why on earth should for instance, the Green party which I’m temporarily allergic to, have Patrick Harvie or Lorna Slater stand up and speak or even worse, vote on the future of the SNP? If I was a member I’d want them to get on their bikes and get lost.
As an SNP voter on the other hand, it would behove the SNP to listen to my views and that of others, as we may or may not vote for the SNP. And that decides whether it’s 45 SNP MPs, 56 SNP MPs, 23 SNP MPs – or just 2, as in 1979.
In my case as I’ve made clear, if the SNP come up with some policy that we all build igloos and wait it out for 50 years until the next ice age, I will spoil my UK GE ballot paper by writing diagonally across it “INDEPENDENCE”.
If they make the UK GE a de facto referendum I will vote SNP and, as Ken asks, take as many friends and family with me as I can to vote SNP.
If they magically come up with an even better way of Scotland deciding our future, then I’ll probably kidnap the whole of Scotland and drag them down with me. Including finding some way of being in 32 places at the same time.
Regarding the clash of dates between the SNP conference and the AUOB march – I looked up the seating capacity for the Caird Hall and it is 2,300. That means that the other 70,000 members of the SNP could attend the march and increase their numbers 3 fold. HY lives near Dundee. He could possibly multi-task and address both gatherings, perhaps by video screen from the Caird Hall with all the cheering members behind him. A PR triumph IMO.
Sounds like a plan 🙂
And it’s just an hour between the two, there shouldn’t be a long weekday queue at the Broxden.
Yes – he could hire a campervan festooned with flags and posters and whizz past the Saturday crowds tooting wildly. What a great start to the summer campaign season.
Ahh but,
has this been approved by ALBA/ Scottish Republicans/ disgruntled troskyiests and corbynites, Douglas Ross, my mother in law?
If not SNP can’t go ahead with IT’s own conference. They will feel snubbed😭
Umm, sorry, OT so soon. But this is quite significant I think, so here it is while I ponder over it, including the author.
An article in the National by George Allison, editor of UKDJ. I think it would be fair to say he’s not fond of the SNP. Graduated from Gcal. Pretty well respected defence wise, including by me.
“It’s essential to respect the democratic choices of a population, whether that’s in the Falklands, Scotland, or anywhere else in the world. It’s not a principle that can be conveniently switched on or off depending on the geopolitical stakes.
The consistent application of this principle, irrespective of the context, is fundamental to its integrity and the preservation of democratic freedoms globally.”
https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23538575.falkland-islands-much-right-self-determination-scotland/
It’s interesting also as the HoL / Commons have had debates about Falklands, basically affirming their right to self-determination, so the more Scotland is compared to the Falklands, the better for us.
Good “coup” for the National publishing this.
I hope they get more articles from him.
No it’s not. See my response to your 12:38 comment.
Both are valid. Falklands are registered under the decolonization (sic) committee, as a non-self-governing territory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Committee_on_Decolonization
So if Scotland doesn’t have the right to self-determination for some odd reason but is similar to the Falklands, then we too would belong on that list.
It’s not ideal as it could take a lot of years to get on that list – and then become independent like Australia.
There are no if’s, Scotland has a right to withdraw from the ToU when the people decide to do so, domestic cannot prevent that from happening.
Well, the Falklands does have an interest in both ways:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn05602/
“Successive UK governments have insisted that it is the Falkland Islanders themselves who have the right to decide on their destiny. Argentina maintains that the UN principle of the right to self-determination does not apply in the case of the Falklanders. Both the UK and Argentina accuse each other of colonialism.”
But before that which makes it a long problem:
“The Falklands/Malvinas are regularly debated at the United Nations Committee on Decolonization, at which a resolution is adopted calling on the two sides to talk about the issues.”
The problem being that there are no definites without agreement. Hence why the S30 route is still, despite many protests, the gold standard, as it’s relatively straightforward.
There’s a longer paper to read at that link, and somewhere else around then or maybe back as far as 2008 there was a HoL / HoC discussion where it was mooted that if it came to it, the UK would support the Falklands being Independent – and help them get off to a good start.
Changed days? Maybe and maybe not.
Political party’s don’t require S30’s which is why Nicola proposed the GE as a Defacto referendum. Domestic law is subject to Treaty law. Scotland is not a colony.
Domestic law.
The fact that I am not British (in national identity), but Scottish (and Irish) is of course protected by law. This has been successfully defended in court.
Something useful to keep in mind. It’s key to the GFA too.
Whatever is debated,we have to face the fact that Westminster is never going to agree to any possibilty of Scottish independence.
Their need is just too great.
No demonstration of popular democratic support is going to make any difference.
So,what are we going to do?
Build support by involving people in making decisions. The conference is one instance. The AUOB is another instance. Regional conventions would be a third.
What do we want? INDEPENDENCE!
Why do we want it? UMMM ERRR
Give me five good reasons.
It will not have the choice if Scots want it, short of sending in tanks. But as long as it looks like just shy at 49% or so, they will keep saying ‘it’s not what people want / it’s not clear that they want it’ to buy time. This applies to Scots themselves; they think ‘It’s not what people want yet it seems’, so they don’t get angry (enough).
But that all falls down if the polls / election results (e.g. defacto ref by election) flip the other way. The entire narrative becomes reverse and the pressure immense.
We might not like this as there is a mandate for iref2 without a shadow of a doubt, and to deny one is seriously undemocratic, but it’s where we are.
The UK is in real s**t IMO if pollsters actually use standard methods. The fact most don’t in Scotland does increasingly worry me about the narrative that’s creating. You also have the pollsters that get the lowest Yes / SNP polling more frequently, creating a false sense of the situation. For example, averages right now could well be a lot of crap as we’ve not had polls from MORI and Findoutnow for months; they use industry standard methods for Scotland that are used for UK polling, unlike what we’ve had recently.
Also, what the SNP polls mid-term is in many ways largely irrelevant. That said, they are looking really good at just shy of 40% on average; throw in the Green tactical and they’d romp home based on current results, even without any Lab to SNP tactical voting or, dare I say it… a defacto indy pledge. But the SNP winning all the seats for Westminster doesn’t get us indy. See e.g. 2015. Scots backing indy does. that’s the only thing that matters. It’s also something that’s largely outwith the control of the SNP as they don’t control the UK nor the world around it.
Just as unionists are all but helpless when it comes to stopping the slow demise of Britain, ergo Scottish indy / Irish reunification, so the SNP are passengers on the ship too rather than having complete control of the helm.
Paul
Do you work for the SNP and left all credible analyses of their actions somewhere in the past.
If you don’t like the analysis then why bother reading the blog?
I’m sure you are well aware of the analysis you will get here which many of us reading do appreciate. You have a choice.
There’s a familiar pattern developing here regarding ‘new’ posters; they are reading from a very familiar script. You’d hope for more creativity, but it seems not so…
Alex
Are you saying that an alternative opinion is not welcome unless it agrees with the article or lack of analysis of the SNP.
It’s you that has a problem with the analysis of the SNP. I’m happy with the analysis and that’s why I come here to read it and comment on it. I’m not going to object to you criticising the analysis with some of your own, in fact that would be welcome.
That’s not what you have done though is it? You came here specifically to have a dig at this blogs author because you disagree with him and provided no evidence whatsoever of where his analysis is wrong or doesn’t align with yours. Moaning just for the sake of it is all too frequent by all the disgruntled that pop up here now and again.
There is no “lack of analysis of the SNP”, Paul’s analysis of the SNP is what you came on here to moan about in the first place, your real issue with the analysis is simply because you just don’t like what you read. There’s blogs I stopped reading because I didn’t agree with their analysis and their views don’t align with my views so I stopped reading them.
It wasn’t a difficult decision, you also have that choice.
I notice that the very first words on your blog are “Just my ill informed opinions. “.
Spot on there!
Alba are projected to lose every single MP they have if a UKGE was held tomorrow. This contrasts a very worse case, totally unrealistic (way too big a % for the ‘Greens / other’) scenario for the SNP where they still win a healthy majority of MPs.
I cannot fathom how the former is the ‘way forward’ while the latter is a ‘disastrous mess’. Every other party in Scotland – and even the wider UK – would kill for the ‘mess’ the SNP are in polling / seats-wise.
I am actually very glad that we have 3 indy parties now catering for a ‘leftie liberal’ (Greens), more middle / moderate / just left of centre (SNP), and a slightly right of centre ‘small C conservative’ (Alba). However, I am realistic on prospects here and that the party in the middle of the movement (SNP) will always have the biggest tent / lead in taking us to indy.
Yes, a poster the other day said the SNP should ditch the Greens.
Ditch a party with eight SP seats in favour of one with none( Alba) ?
TBH, this happening (sudden appearance of concerned ‘lifelong indy supporters who want to cull the SNP’) is actually a very good sign. It indicates bottoms squeaking very loudly for some reason. It’s probably because worst case has seen Yes support hold/rise even if that e.g. £30 wheelbarrow and £1 ladies’ razor have not been found yet by the 30 odd Polis combing Scotland for these.
Stephen
All opinions are ill-informed because no one knows everything about everything. That’s why people discuss, debate, analyse, learn, change their minds and move on when the information or what they learn changes their ill-informed opinion.
Did you send that comment to the right place ???
Or
Have I missed something important again???
‘Of course the usual suspects are unhappy, ….’ and ‘Naturally supporters of other parties are going to attack the SNP, they have their own party agendas to promote.’
Indeed – and we can add to these groups, the former Political Editor (?) of STV, Bernard Ponsonby – now a Special Correspondent for STV- who is quoted in the Daily Express today under this headline:
‘SNP are ‘peddling a fiction’ with independence conference warns former STV politics lead – The SNP ‘have forgotten’ that any vote on Scexit needs a Section 30 order from the UK Government says a veteran political journalist reacting to the latest nationalist statements.’
Ponsonby states: ‘”The crude fact is this, the SNP have no strategy for delivering independence and a convention committed to discussing a legally binding plebiscite cannot defeat the principle that Westminster must consent.
“The Dundee convention might serve to highlight the weakness of the SNP’s position and indeed might be no more than an exercise in frustrated activists letting off steam at the continued refusal of the UK Government to turn a blind eye to repeated mandates demanding a new poll.”
It’s notable – and the more damning of the nature, the limits of Ponsonby’s stated view – that he acknowledges almost casually, in passing it seems, this: ‘the continued refusal of the UK Government to turn a blind eye to repeated mandates demanding a new poll.”
To hell with democracy, to hell with the principle of self-determination. Scotland’s future? It’s England’s choice!
That’s pretty desperate stuff by Ponsonby “warns” hahaha
The actual article by Pononby is considerably more nuanced than the Distorting Express errr, distorts. As you’d expect from someone who blasted several UK politicians for refusing to be interviewed by him.
https://news.stv.tv/politics/bernard-ponsonby-insight-what-will-the-snps-independence-convention-actually-achieve
For instance this:
“SNP leaders have danced to the tune of the current settlement and have locked themselves into a debate defined by the provisions of the Scotland Act.
They need a new tune.”
Which is actually what the SNP tried in its submission to the UKSC. And need now.
I also by the way don’t think Sturgeon messed up. The reference by the LA was necessary precisely to either win, or exhaust the Scotland Act route with an intransigent UK Government. Some (like me) think that the UKSC messed up and history will condemn it.
But there are other ways than the flawed Scotland Act.
Repeal the Scotland Act. It facilitates the sheer arrogance of pompous gits like Alister Jack as in this clip which is doing the rounds on twitter:
The whole point of the Supreme Court case was to “unlock” themselves from any debate about the Scotland Act when it comes to having the powers to hold a referendum. They have done that and that’s the reason for the conference at the Caird Hall next month.
They know where they stand as far as the Section 30 route goes as that’s a road to nowhere so the question now is “What are we going to do about being denied the mandate we were given to hold another referendum?”.
Hopefully they will come up with a decision at the Caird Hall that takes us to a de-facto referendum, the really difficult question is when? Because the answer to that is surely when you’re sure you can win it. That makes it a really difficult question under the current circumstances.
Indeed, except for the last bit. If you’re not in it, you can’t win it and, as they say, fortune favours the bold.
I say – go for it!
Bernard Ponsonby, once a Scottish Liberal Democrat always a Tory, unless in England when they’re the opposition
Margaret Ferrier has lost her appeal against her suspension and now will now face a recall petition. With the major parties calling for a by-election this will probably reach 10% threshold needed for a by-election to be held
I think it’s clear to all that there is one rule for any SNP politician that broke the rules during Covid and a completely different rule for the rest. Both Johnsen and Sunak were fined for breaking Covid rules so why haven’t they be suspended?
Don’t bother answering it’s a rhetorical question.
In fairness Johnson went around hospitals without a mask shaking hands with nurses etc. Didn’t one become ill?
Aren’t tories allowed to break the law?
Suella Braverman thinks they should be when she tried to get away without punishment for speeding that normal folk would face.
She’s now the Home Secretary in charge of the police and and an ex- attorney general who’s job it was to advise the government on the law. In her world view, Tories would be allowed to break the law, with different rules for the rest of us plebs of course.
Margaret Ferrier is another SNP MP who has been treated badly IMO. She has already been served with a community service order by a Scottish court for travelling on public transport with Covid, which was not illegal in England where she got on the train but apparently was in Scotland where she got off the train. Perhaps she was badly advised, or perhaps she was confused being ill and assumed she had to go home and stay at home.
Whatever, she has already paid for her mistake. When Boris Johnstone and Rishi Sunak appear to have go off with a slap on the wrist for all their breaking of rules and partying, this suspension begins to look like a witch hunt.
Indeed.
It’s a witch-pricking-hunt designed to cage each and every SNP politician, with the main aim to keep us beaten and colonised so they can continue to benefit from all of Scotland’s bounties.
Heck of a lot of southerners moving north…are they getting paid by the tories to relocate to ensure the vote-o-meter swings in their favour?
She was wrong but she was never heard to say “let the bodies pile high” Boris Johnson said that
She was wrong but she had no hand in deciding the deaths of around 300,000
She was wrong and she will be made to suffer as publicly as possible because she’s Scottish SNP and a discredit to Nicola Sturgeon
She was wrong because she’s not one of them, it really is that simple
Just tell Scots the truth about who we are, who rules us and why, then tell them a vote for Tory Labour or Liberal Democrat is a vote for the continuation of *England rule*
Dump the rhetoric about unions, don’t even mention that stuff, it doesn’t mean a thing, the words are *England rule* not British rule, because the folk in Wales and Northern Ireland don’t get a vote on Scotland, only England decides who wins general elections, so only England decides our futures, and the political parties that country votes for all have the same opinion, Scotland shall never be allowed make a decision for itself that is not subject to veto by them
I doubt very much even the people of England haven’t noticed that Rishi Sunak and his gang of anti everybody who’s not them is preparing the way for Northern Ireland to be the North of Ireland, and the decision for them to reunite with the Republic of Ireland is theirs and theirs alone, and why? there’s no money to be made from keeping it under England’s control
Whereas Scotland was and still is a goldmine with the ability to reduce domestic electricity charges by 50% and totally ridding ourselves of all nuclear weapons making us not a target for people like Putin
Tell Scots about what England uses our land and sea for, power status and control, without Scotland England has no global standing, no more G7 0r even G20, just England too feart and unimaginative to stand on their own feet
Insist in that campaign that Scotland will return to the EU as an equal member and have the same status as the other 27 countries of Europe with the same entitlements as the soon to be all Republic of Ireland
Run a fire in the belly campaign of what can be, free of England sucking us dry rule
Well said Dr.Jim. Scotland is literally a good mine, ScotGold an Australian company are extracting high quality gold from the hills at Tyndrum. Last time I looked there’s a nice colourful map of a large area north of there, where prospecting for other high value minerals, no doubt some used in the tech industry, is in the sights of folks wanting to exploit Scotland for big bucks to be made, with of course little to no benefit to Scotland at all. Add to that the wrecking of Scotland’s amazing countryside and eco system and it’s a lose lose for Scotland.
Farmers in France are fighting over access to water, England needs Scotland’s clean water. Scotland needs to extract itself from the so called Uk before it’s too late. Seen lots of faux disgruntled tweets and blog comments about never voting SNP again, because they have failed to get us independence, so toys out the pram.
The British state at work attempting to sow seeds of doubt, and put people off voting for the SNP, who are the only party to get us to independence. They are also the party that has started to repair terrible damage to Scotland and the people of Scotland that is a consequence of English rule. Any English based party will reverse the work done so far by the SNP, an actual Scottish party at the helm, and the only one keeping Scotland from being sold off lock stock and barrel by the English parties in London.
ArtyHetty, Dr Jim, bravo 👏🏿👏🏼👏🏾👏👏🏻🏴🏴🏴
Well to do that Dr J the gloves have to come off… no more nice politics and playing by their rules. Every lie… every misinformation, every innuendo every put down, every broken promise ‘vow’ has to to be called out and anyone peddling them such as BBC employees opposition MSPs MPs etc have to be confronted and taken to task. Are our representatives up to it?
The SNP’s convention is not about Independence it is about control.
Control of what ???
Their own party (of which I suspect U R not a member), Their policies (which non-members don’t get to choose). Their election manifesto (which non-members don’t get to choose, although U along with the rest of the population (who have ID) do get to vote on it at the next GE).
The same as above applies to all political parties in a democracy, however the dictate control from westminster kinda limits that a bit.
Control of Independence votes while delivering nothing.
Well there’s always Alba and IFS….
I’m married. What’s the issue?
You want to control the snp? Get elected!🤫
My my another wee visitation from the dark side. So are you a unionist or another kind of visiter. Noticed we have had a few visitations from folks in recent days telling us Paul’s wrong or those of us who support his view are wrong. There is a bit of whiff of Bath about some of these posts although that could very well be the stench of England’s overflowing sewers I am smelling
Good news! Food inflation has edged lower in May.
Not so good news! It’s now 17.2%.
Another “Better Together” Brexit dividend.
Some people can march. Some people can attend conventions and conferences. Some people cannot physically march. They are not able. Some people have to work, care or do not have the siller for the travel expense. Sone watch it in the internet.
The best route is March to the Ballot Box take another too. A GE coming soon. Vote out the unionists. Vote for Independence, Parties.
Johnstone and Cumming got dumped. Along with most of the rest of them. The other Tories will get dumped soon. Sooner than later. People have the opportunity and power at the Ballot Box. If they use it wisely as possible.
However the British state cannot rule that it is unlawful for the SNP and other pro independence parties to fight the next UK General Election or the next Holyrood election as de facto referendums, neither can it rule it unlawful for the SNP to make the transfer to Holyrood of the power to hold another referendum a condition of SNP MPs propping up a minority government at Westminster.
Well, yeah, those basically are the two options, aren’t they? And since the second depends on a very unlikely alignment of circumstances, over which Scotland doesn’t have control, doesn’t that leave only one?
Upthread I asked what 5 good reasons could we give for independence. One of my top reasons is to never again be subjected to the arrogance of gauleiter Alister Jack:
Alister Jack: Scottish Government ‘transgressions’ led to diplomat row
https://archive.fo/2McJ8
Is there another country in the world that would put up with being lectured on protocol by an idiot such as this?
Arrogance beyond belief from Onion Jack.
Indeed. This clip is being shared far and wide. He says as long we as we stick to the Scotland Act devolution works fine. That’s exactly the problem, the Scotland Act, a Westminster invention. Why would we want our defence and foreign policy dictated by warmongering arms manufacturing representatives in Westminster? We want rid of Trident. We want to be in a trading relationship with Europe. If the Scotland Act prevents that then the Scotland Act must go, or Westminster must go.
Did I hear right at the end there. Did he actually say “let them eat cake”
No I think it was “eat your cereal, serfs”. Could be mistaken 🙂
Arrogance personified, much as his predecessor Ian Lang (creator of GERS) who tried desperately to avert devolution in the first place.
The reason SNP MPs and MSPs discuss these matters with diplomats and envoys, is because THEY WERE ASKED, it’s not rocket science.
Most of Europe is watching HMG crash and burn more as a sidenote, but there is every likelihood cameos from Duchess Gloriana XII or Prime Minister Count Rupert Mountjoy or Tully Bascombe might rescue interest in the series despite the A-lister State of a Secretary for Flounce in Scotland guesting…
😂
Toon tabard. Sorry, Toom tabard.
[…] Source […]
SNP knew AUOB Stirling was that Saturday. They could easily have arranged it for another day to avoid a clash. No wonder a lot of Yessers are getting pissed off with them!
“They could easily have arranged it for another day to avoid a clash.”
Go on then, see if you can book up the Caird Hall in Dundee for this Saturday or the next one, never mind all the other stuff you have to do.
Well, can you?
Here’s another question for you. How long in advance did AUOB have to start planning their march and rally on 24th June 2023. Is it:
a). yesterday
b). March 2023
c). October 2022
d). May 2022 or thereabouts
?
Candidate # 9/10 on this latest grift… ?
“They could easily have arranged it for another day to avoid a clash” – Might I ask h0w many short availability venues you’ve booked in the last year with a seating capacity of 3,000 + ?
The world needs fewer trolls and the bridges agree…
I remember when AUOB was AUOB, it’s now operating under false pretenses and become Salmond’s fake troublemaking mouthpiece, that makes it not a vehicle for independence, that’s why the marches are so poorly attended, folk figured it out for themselves and body swerve it
You can’t expect the SNP and the Green supporters to turn up to a *we want to make Salmond relevant by insulting the SNP* fest and then tell them to be grateful they were invited to be abused
Last question. Why not Monday to Friday, and why not Sunday, for a short-notice event?
Is it because:
a). co-ordinating diaries
b). Parliament is sitting
c). Rail works on a Sunday for those by train
d). All of the above?
“Easily”…😂
Never been to any Indy march mostly due to fear of large crowds but never had the desire to go to one either . The Snp serve their membership of which I recently became one. As a government their duty is serve the Scottish people not the Independence movement which in 2014 was totally independent from the Snp and had many groups cooperating in the Indy campaign which seemed to have worked well. Where exactly did you think they would get a venue and a date that would suit all the now whinging factions. AOUB marches are not the most important thing to those who support Indy for Scotland.
Given the significance of the 24th June in the history of Scotland why are
there not MORE events promoting independence in all parts of Scotland? Take the issue of independence to the people of Scotland in as many varied ways large & small as possible.
Why do some people and organisations always reach for the negative spin on issues such as two events on the same day? Why not a positive spin – we the people are celebrating a famous victory while the party of government in Scotland voted in repeatedly by the people of Scotland plan for independence?
Excellent point. There are a lot of glass-half-empty types who can’t welcome positive developments because of a dismal mind set that insists on doom and gloom. Reframe!
Oh grow up.
My mammy said this my daddy said that.!If you want to go on your walk on you go. If you want to go to the conference go there- if you are a snp member or stay at home sookin yir thumb.
Ps
I know it’s Christmas on the 25th December whose party should I go too? Upset my son or upset my daughters?
Decisions, decisions 😭😢
This will show you where the National has disappeared to:
“ POLL
Should the special independence convention just be for SNP members?
Yes 19%
No 81%
Votes cast: 177”
Part of the clue is in the dishonest distorted question. It’s not the “special independence convention”, it’s the flaming “SNP special independence convention”.
OK, here’s another readers poll:
“Should the National disappear up the nether regions of Alba?
YES
It already did“
Same troublemaking *journalism* as BBC STV or any other newspaper
Sales must be in trouble to resort to this kind of thing
I’m thinking of having pasta for dinner, maybe Alba the Tories or anybody else wants a vote on that
Very like the Herald though isn’t it, sales again?
Meanwhile on HMS James Cook, the Margaret Ferrier story features in prime spot on both BBC “the news where you are/” and “BBC/the news where you are/Politics” –
But note what James Cook holds as the second most important story for scots, “Glasgow killer who set victim’s body alight in bin jailed.
SECOND…. Strewth
Some want the SNP conference to invite non snp members.
This is a lovely thought but I hope as a fee paying member of the snp I would get an invite before them otherwise why should I pay for membership.
Answer ?
For interest had a quick gander at the ALBA page.
Interesting that it states
“As instructed by our members at our Spring Conference in Inverness, the ALBA Party will move to support the setup of a new Independence Convention with immediate effect.”
Action Nil- what does “move to support” actually mean? Throw pebbles in the pool.
Further,
‘That is why ALBA believes that cooperation between all pro-independence parties and non-party aligned groups such as All Under One Banner is vital to achieving our noble aim of restoring Scotland’s independence.”
Action it appears that they will use AUOB as a proxy to their aims.
Why do they always capitalise their name like it’s an acronym
ALBA party and AUOB aren’t the same thing honest we aren’t
The only noble thing about both of these is how dishonestly they pretend to be noble
Non aligned, right you are then, OK, duh, an here wiz me finkin they wur anaw, ah must’ve been wrang aw alang so a must
The head of AUOB is an Alba member.
AUOB
ALBA UNDER OUR BANNER
Kate Forbes spells out how an independent Scotland would embed our values in the way we organise and fund social care.
Politicians must act to recognise the vital work of Scotland’s carers
https://archive.fo/QLW96
That would be my second good reason for independence, we vote for a universal health and social care system and we get instead Westminster austerity and survival of the fittest.
Agreed, and that irrespective of which party has been in power at Westminster over the last 50 years, although dominated by the Tories.
Having just caught up on the Lesley Riddoch Podcast, when the discussion turned to the latest news of Selantis pulling out of UK, Lesley came out with a wonderful constructed rant which beautifully summarised all that ails the UK, no less applicable to human “worth” –
“And what the British Government has not done, is back manufacturing of any kind in Britain, because they are spivs and speculators, and they trade.
They don’t expect to make things, they expect to trade just-in-time, because that also lets their chums in the City hedge, bet, speculate, and make millions whilst our economy jolts this way, that way, and has no ability to plan forward because that’s not the way they operate”
Succinct.
Excellent response from Lesley. Will go and listen to her podcast. I’m in the mood for some positivity!
After watching your clip of Gauleiter Jack Capella…..I’m in the mood for a fight!
😂
All gloom and doom for the SNP according to yet another new poll on the very far away upcoming general election
Apparently in Scotland we’re all going to vote Labour because well we don’t want a free NHS or free eye or hearing tests, we don’t want free prescriptions or bus travel or baby boxes, and we don’t believe in independence anymore because Alex Salmond says the SNP are lying to everybody about wanting that dream that’ll never die, so it really doesn’t matter anymore, unless we vote for ALBA of course then he’ll force the England parliament into not being a dictatorship
R-i-g-h-t, I understand now, I’ll rush out immediately and get my *make Scotland great again* golf cap, because that’s a winner, right?
For 60 years no matter what Scotland has voted, or had Scotland not cast a single vote, in general elections the same governments have been elected by England
Scotland’s votes made not the slightest bit of difference
So if anybody believes that voting Labour in Scotland will result in a Labour government in England they are 100% incorrect, only England decides which of their political parties win elections, it’s designed that way
Scotland only has any power at all if we do not vote for English political parties
One more tiny thing, the Labour party are the party of Brexit just the same as the Tories, it’s the only shot they have at England electing them, by pretending to be just as Tory as the real Tories, but nicer
The latest poll shows support for independence at 53% which does throw
some doubt on the earlier YouGov poll showing the SNP losing so many seats to Labour.
Any polls that show independence voters switching to Labour must be hugely suspect
In my experience once folk have moved to Scottish independence they don’t return to England rule, why on earth would they once they’ve wakened up to Tory Labour Lib Dem as the same thing, the Scottish version of the DUP
I said as much a few days back, the Yes vote staying rock solid made it impossible for the Labour vote to increase substantially from unhappy SNP voters and I believe the Yes vote wasn’t ‘ tampered ‘ with to give credibility to these polls.
@ Dr Jim @ 11.52am
Indeed Dr Jim…and Labour and their supporters (via political commentators) will feast on this poll for a while….BUT….how will Starmer’s statement that he and his party will ‘Make Brexit Work’ translate as a credible and workable plan to voters…. Lisa Nandy, when once interviewed, said that “the EU have made it clear they will NOT seek any renegotiation on the Brexit deal”…of course she only said that to JUSTIFY New New Labour’s uber Brexit position as in them being, like the Tories, very much a Pro Brexit party.
Starmer had previously and continually said he will NOT seek the UK rejoining either the Single market OR the Customs Union and did this by ensuring the public that THEY, Labour, would ‘Make Brexit Work’….YET last week he said “we need a better deal”……I assume his previous position in being one who was identified as being an uber Brexiteer is faltering based on public opinion via various polls that are showing that the public now have NO confidence , via a majority, on Brexit in HIS UK….. BUT for him the opinions he mainly seeks is that of the political ‘King Makers’ in WM aka the English voters opinions….as he knows to WIN a GE he NEEDS their votes via a majority…but he has NOT said he will STOP supporting or implementing the Tory Brexit.
Seems to me that Labour, like the Tories, have NO real plan OR solutions to either ‘Make Brexit Work’ or ‘Get it done’ successfully for their UK……and Starmer DOES have form in U turning….based on what his focus groups perceive as being the current trend in public opinion…..alas his opinion is never influenced by what WE here in Scotland WANT or NEED as he, like the Tories, prefer to DICTATE what HE pretends to think, believe and know what is best for us….mainly via us accepting what the English people say they NEED and WANT…..but not the ones who agree with us in Scotland more the ones who agree with the likes of Farage, GB news , BBC and TalkTV’s etc output…..as in Tory idealogy…..
IF we had a decent media the public, via a majority, would have been MORE than aware of the damage via Brexit long before NOW….but THEY, the media, like Starmer and t’others in and OUT of the media have ALL been complicit in concealing the truth on Brexit….it , as a policy, would also have been or rather SHOULD be the Achilles Heel for the Labour party….alas the media in Scotland will do their best to ensure BREXIT is never noted or seen to be a major problem for the Labour party (in order to help them to GAIN votes/seats in Scotland at the next GE)…as in their, Labour’s, support of and intention to continue to implement this TORY Brexit policy throughout the UK….including IN Scotland…..they the media will instead, when in Scotland, focus solely on what Labour state are the supposed but NOT SNP failures as a devolved government while IGNORING how they, Labour, are very much failing in Wales as a devolved government …….data via the NHS etc has regularly shown Wales to be behind both Scotland and England in performance…..but who cares about facts…or even highlighting truths….NEVER done by the media IN Scotland……( UK media only occasionally highlight Labour’s failures in Wales to benefit the Tories in the English government)….
The next GE is predicted to be next year….a lot can happen before then and one thing that CAN happen and WILL happen is that BREXIT can damage and impact us in Scotland even MORE…it’s up to the SNP to ensure this message gets out…they need to continue to convey this…obviously they will have to do this within a hostile media environment who will challenge them on behalf of those pro UK parties who either support Brexit OR who like the Lib Dems are taking a back seat on Brexit and trying NOT to communicate how supposedly they once were THE most REMAINER party in the UK…..ALL of this will be done by the media via deflection and LIES…..the main purpose being to STOP the SNP retaining seats and too in winning more seats in the next GE and ultimately they hope and assume it will then destroy any hope of an increase in support for Independence for Scotland…..
The idea that the Red Tories should indeed ever make gains in Scotland does fill me with despair, anger and a sense that for some in Scotland the REAL truth is just NOT getting anywhere near them as voters…. OR that there is a real fear factor for REAL change, a lack of confidence and knowledge in how rich an independent Scotland actually could and would be ( as in refer to what current UK Govt and too what UK Labour’s plans are reliant on for future prosperity of THEIR UK via OUR resources) and also for some an inexplicable complacency in just willingly accepting the same old same old…..even though they, as voters, have already done that, been there and worn the you know what and suffered as a result…….but I live in hope ( or rather past experience as in remember Jim Murphy who said how “easy” it had been to “outwit Nicola Sturgeon” then he lost Labour in Scotland 40 WM seats in 2015 GE…) that Labour will become TOO OVER confident in their supposed widely anticipated and thus predicted resurgence in votes here in Scotland….mainly by THEM, their partisan media and sources outwith Scotland…..to the extent that it will give many a Scot the dry boak….
So polls come and polls go…and some polls are never even published like Michael Gove ‘secret but not secret’ poll on support for the Union…..and too David Lidington’s poll on the Union was also blocked from being released….so not all is lost…..no matter HOW much they want you to think it is…in Scotland.
You really really need to have HOPE over FEAR ( and REAL knowledge and truth) when you live in Scotland plus you need to realise that we are up against a HUGE opposition via the various establishments whose only job is to ensure TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE is suppressed and LIES are promoted…..once a majority in Scotland realise what is the REAL TRUTH and when they too, like us, have REAL KNOWLEDGE….. THAT then really is GAME OVER for their (non) Union…..as in when a majority of Scots STOP listening and believing their fake news and start listening to and believing in their own country’s ability to be , like some other countries in the world, successful and prosperous if independent……as in when the time comes in having ALL of the powers, control and financial resources to thrive as an independent Scotland….the proof will then indeed be in the pudding…..talking of puddings…we know if you vote Tory you get an Eton Mess….vote Labour and you will either get Rhubarb CRUMBLE or Fruit FOOL…..as should Labour win the next GE then we in Scotland will see more things CRUMBLE here and we will also see FOOLS are once again running the country via their parliament in WM…..(any Lib Dem coalition or agreement with either major party will be classified, via a pudding, as a FUDGE sundae….as via their past and current form where THEY specialise in FUDGING most issues)……as to Scotland , if independent , then Christmas pudding will be apt…as in an independent Scotland EVERY day will seem like XMAS…..LOL
Have a nice day Dr Jim ( and everyone else on here)
🙂
Rishi Sunak at PMQs just said “I believe Northern Ireland is governed best when governed locally”
Strange he does not believe that about Scotland and Wales
Interesting to see James Cook make up for his blundering promotion of the Margaret Ferrier propaganda piece on both their web-pages, by today featuring “Man jailed for rape and murder of Jill Barclay in Aberdeen” story he previously considered less in the public interest, even getting a spot on BBC/UK…. Not on the BBC/Scotland/Politics channel of course, where the wicked SNP witch of Covid story prevails.
Yet look at the vast gulf between what other “the news where you are” in the UK versus Scotland –
UK – “Rishi Sunak decides not to order inquiry into Suella Braverman speeding row”, “UK inflation: Food prices ‘worryingly high’ as sugar and milk soar”, “Cardiff riots: Killed teenagers not chased – police commissioner”, “Court papers show how killer parents won back their baby”, etc..
Scotland – The afore-mentioned murder story, “Summit aimed at tackling pupil violence to be held”, “Energy firm SSE announces £2.5bn operating profit”, “Council U-turns on bouncy castle health and safety ban”….
Seriously James, the news where you are is not the news where we are, and has not been for more years than you have suits..
Can you imagine what the BBC would be like if the trial of that alleged serial-killer maternity nurse was in Glasgow instead of Liverpool?
It would dominate every aspect of the site, with detailed information about every accusation. There would be full histories of the ward & hospital, suggestions of similar cases elsewhere, and of course constant calls for the Health Secretary and FM to resign.
In perfect timing from Tom Harris the ex-Labour MP who lost his seat to the SNP in 2015 and confessed to voting Tory in the 2 general elections since has announced in his Daily Torygraph column that Humza Yousaf has killed Scottish independence.
I say perfect timing because as a couple of hours earlier Ipsos released their latest poll for STV which gave Yes a lead over No of 53% to 47%.
There has been an awful lot of this wishful thinking in the Tory press since Nicola Sturgeon stood down but now and again something pops up that bursts their bubble.
Harris now works for Alaistair Jack in the Scottish Office as “an adviser to the Conservative government on Scottish issues” according to his Wiki entry where he describes himself as a “self-confessed Blairite”.
It’s people like Harris that any Yes supporters switching to Labour will be voting to put into power if Starmer wins. I version of Labour that are not even red Tories that are a very pale blue Tory though and through. In fact they are more Tory than the ones thrown out of the Tory party by Johnson for opposing Brexit.
The only possible left of centre MP’s that will be sent to Westminster afterr the next election are SNP MP’s every other party is a Tory party, its as clear as day for anyone who bothers to look.
Here’s the article, which is just crap, oh and ferries get a mention as well of course.
https://archive.ph/pBhpw
It’s true there may be some old style Labour voters that may be hanging on to the forlorn hope of the actual Labour party resurfacing once again to fill their beating hearts with the sounds of let’s get them Tories out rhetoric but it’s all changed days since yer Labour leader’s first name began with Sir
Ipsos, unlike most pollsters, used internationally accepted standard methods in Scotland. They use the exact same methods for their UK polls.
By contrast, most British / England based pollsters (Ipsos have an office in Scotland and have been polling us for the longest of all I think) use weird, non-standard methods in ‘Jockland’ which reduces Yes/SNP VI for some reason. Total ignorance mainly I suspect.
Anyhoo, understand this is a ‘no change’ on Ipsos’s December Y/N, which fits the pattern of Yes baseline / dead to the union / no going back ever / ready to vote for indy no matter what holding steady (slowing rising long term) at close to 50%, or probably over it.
Hence we are not allowed to vote by Putin / Russia. Sorry, Sunak / England.
What methods? They weight their poll to the same factors as other pollsters from what I can see (including indyref 2014 vote). The only thing i see them doing differently is conducting the polling via phone rather than on line.
Disastrous mid term polling!
‘Independence is over’ now that it’s consistently favoured option of most Scots when standard methods are used!
🙂
And this with a full on assault on the SNP from every angle, including the police whatsit.
UK is totally f**ked if Sturgeon and all those that were close to her do not end up jailed on multiple counts of fraud. If the Daily Record is anywhere close to the mark in their wild goose chase theory, a permanent Yes majority is what will be the outcome of all this.
Greens wouldnae get 2%. Probably 1 and so 43% SNP.
That’s without any manifesto nor commitments such as a defacto vote on indy.
Note as a rule, sat ratings for Yousaf are not comparable with the leaders of the other Scottish parties if the question is different, like here. With Yousaf, people were asked about how they think he’s doing as FM, not party leader. Only statistically reasonably valid comparison therefore is with Sunak as PM (Yousaf doing way better by a country mile). It’s a crap lot easier to be a party leader than it is to be FM.
When polled in the past, I used to tell pollsters Davidson was a decent Tory leader because that’s what I thought. She seemed give them a boost and make them come across better, even if I didn’t like her. No way I’d have rated her as an FM and thank god she never was.
Skier is on the money here.
Dont forget folks….if a week is a long time in politics…….18 months?
And x % labour are independence supporters. Let’s make the GE a de-facto referendum.
We are reliably informed that about 50% of ‘Welsh’ Labour members are pro-Welsh indy.
This from the pro-Indy march in Abertawe/Swansea over the weekend (approx. 8 000 attendees).
From the National:
“If Humza Yousaf wants to make his mark, protect his party and unite the Yes movement, then the SNP’s independence convention must commit to a de facto General Election campaign and motivate the activists to work.
“I believe that this is what the SNP members want, it’s what the Yes movement wants and it’s what the country needs,” MacIntyre-Kemp said.
He certainly speaks for me.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23545282.snp-independence-convention-grassroots-figures-weigh-event/
I think it would be brilliant if that SNP special convention did as GmK says, and many of us as well, and then the usual whingers as in the rest of the article, would be like “Oh, it doesn’t count because they didn’t consult me”. Or “They should have waited until it didn’t clash with something else I was doing like cutting the grass. Oooh, in 2026 or so”. “Huff puff”.
[redacted]
Being critical is one thing, it’s good, necessary in fact, but that lot are just total negative me me me [redacted].
“but I think the way the SNP should have dealt with it was to put out a statement encouraging their members who were not conference delegates to attend the Stirling march”
Whit? Are the SNP supposed to order their members to attend, and prove some right that it is a cult?
Whit? What an incredibly daft thing to say. What the members decide to to is their business. they are not slaves!
“and to accept the invitation to provide a speaker who was a senior party figure”
They did, just before announcing the Caird Hall date. In fact it was Yousaf himself who said “a senior party figure will attend”.
Are these people secretly being so extreme to try to make people think “The SNP aren’t so bad after all”?
Are they running interference for the SNP?
I still don’t know who these Yes movement folk are that keep demanding other people do as they’re told by them, who are they? I want their names so I can demand stuff of them
Where is Jack these days? I miss his rants. I also miss reading about what he is cooking
Whatever democratic processes the people of Scotland use to regain independence, Westminster will still say no, 80% of Scots could say Yes and Westminster will still happily deny there’s any desire for independence. There are international laws on Treaties and on leaving the control of another Nation, but how does Scotland gain
access to,and use them without the ability to interact or demonstrate the democratic deficit, of British State control?