National Conservatism, self-pity, idiocy and English fascism

The Brextremist hard right culture wing of the Tory party, which these days is most of it, has been holding a conference in London to air its delusional and self-pitying views. The so-called ‘National Conservatism’ conference is giving the Tories full throttle to blame all the ills of modern Britain on migrants, the EU, the poor, trade unions, and a supposedly all powerful globalist liberal elite which however was not powerful enough to stop Brexit from happening. The event was organised by the right wing Edmund Burke Foundation, one of those right wing think tanks with an opaque funding structure. The conference show cased the reality-phobic right wing authoritarian, xenophobic and minority bashing politics which are in store for the UK unless the Conservatives are utterly thrashed at the next General Election, an eventuality which is looking less and less likely as that election draws closer.

The National Conservatism conference represents the Trumpification of British politics, it is nakedly and shamelessly nationalist and British exceptionalist and triumphalist even as it denies that it is nationalist. The event platforms an authoritarian populist form of Conservatism which is all but indistinguishable from fascism. Delegates to the conference discussed the Tories’ favourite culture war tropes, a form of political masturbation which could not be further removed from the issues which will really determine the outcome of the next election. It’s the Daily Mail comments section in the flesh.

When I first heard about this conference, I imagined it was going to be held in some vast hall, like the QE2 Centre in Westminster. Instead, it’s being held somewhere as tiny as some of the minds on display. The modern Tory party is presenting us with Suella Braverman as one of its great thinkers. It’s the political equivalent of praising a toddler as a genius because it managed to get most of the poo in the potty.

It seems the Tories have given up on winning the next General Election outright and are contenting themselves with depriving Starmer of a majority. The Conservatives have learned nothing since they were given a message at the English local elections. What they appear to have taken from that defeat, which saw them lose more than one thousand councillors, is the same lesson that Liz Truss took from her disastrous and thankfully short chaotic term as Prime Minister. It’s the people who are wrong, the Tories need to double down on the extremism and go even further.

The populist extreme right of the Tory party has run Britain into the ground with Johnson and Truss, and a disaster of a Brexit which even Nigel Farage has had to concede has failed. So the Tories sticks Sunak into power in order to take the blame for their inevitable defeat at the next General Election, thus permitting the hard right-wing to take full control of the party again in the wake of the General Election. But even if defeated at the election their ideas will live on through Starmer’s Labour party.

This conference would be laughable were it not so dangerous, a direct threat to democracy railing against liberal values before our eyes. We had the ludicrous spectacle of Tory MP Marian Cates railing against the UK’s low birthrate, which make inward migration necessary. According to Cates the reason the birthrate is falling is ‘cultural Marxism’ and ‘excessive education’ and not the late stage capitalism which she so strongly defends even as it makes a small number of people obscenely rich and condemns the majority to a cost of living crisis unaffordable housing, soaring childcare costs, and the collapse of public services. But no, it’s really all the fault of university academics pointing out the evils of British imperialism and Britain’s involvement in the slave trade. It would be a joke were this woman not a legislator with the power to shape public policy.

One speaker was right wing historian David Starkey, who insisted that left-wing activists are “jealous” of the Holocaust and want to replace it with slavery. I have no idea what that means although it’s obviously both asinine and offensive. Starkey went on to claim that groups such as Black Lives Matter were attempting to destroy “white culture” and “do exactly what was done to German culture because of Nazism and the Holocaust. And this was coming from one of the supposedly more intellectually distinguished contributors.

Right wing author Douglas Murray averred that people were not ‘allowed’ to be proud of being British, in his own words He could “see no reason why every other country in the world should be prevented from feeling pride in itself because the Germans mucked up twice in a century”. The Holocaust, and a war of aggression that killed 70 million people are “mucking up.” In his book” The Strange Death of Europe”, Murray pandered to the tropes of the extreme right wing white nationalist Great Replacement conspiracy theory, arguing that Europe “is committing suicide” by allowing non-European immigration into its borders and losing its “faith in its beliefs.”

Another speaker at the conference was the academic Matthew Goodwin who asserted that during the past 50 years the people of Britain have been victims of a revolution imposed on them by the left. It’s clearly escaped Goodwin’s attention that over the past 50 years the UK has only had 13 years of Labour government, and that was the government of Tony Blair, whose wholesale adoption of previously Conservative policies was described by Margaret Thatcher as her greatest achievement, a cruel trick now being emulated by Keir Starmer.

Goodwin is one of those right wing poster boys who constantly rails against cancel culture even as he has no apparent shortage of high profile platforms from which to air his grievances. This is the guy who wrote a book entitled ‘Values, Voice and Virtue: The New British Politics’ a book whose contention that ‘liberal elites’ are responsible for all that ails Britain has been enthusiastically taken up by the right of the modern Tory Party. Despite its title, nowhere in its 240 pages is there a single mention of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. The dominance of the right in the British media and the dark money which floods into right wing British nationalist and pro-Brexit politics are likewise given short shrift by Goodwin. For Goodwin, as for the right of the Tory party for whom he is the modern guru, England and Britain are synonymous terms, British nationalism is identical to English nationalism and its distinguishing feature is its refusal to admit that it’s nationalist at all. One reviewer of Goodwin’s book noted that Goodwin had become “part of the right-populist movement he once sought to explain.”

In the UK, as we have seen with Trump in the USA, the Law and Justice party in Poland and Viktor Orbán’s Fidesz party in Hungary, there has been a creeping right wing populist authoritarianism, which prioritises ‘culture war’ issues and claims that an out of touch global liberal elite does not care about the working class even as it cracks down on the ability of trades unions to organise, introduces tax policies which favour the wealthy and has little to say about low wages, the casualisation of the workforce or the increasing concentration of wealth in the hands of the few, the real elite whom the right protect and defend.

It’s a right wing which increasingly trades in conspiracy theories and which rejects any attempt to hold it to account, dismissing elections which it loses as ‘rigged’ or introducing measures to suppress the participation in elections of demographic groups which oppose it.

This is the future of British politics. This is what English fascism looks like in the 21st century, deeply xenophobic, reactionary, and hostile to any distinctly Scottish political expression. Labour cannot protect Scotland from this as its response to English nationalist right wing populism is to co-opt its garb, its language and its policies. All Scotland can do is escape. If Scots want their country to be more than a neglected region of an authoritarian, right wing and intolerant Greater England, independence is the only option left.


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182 comments on “National Conservatism, self-pity, idiocy and English fascism

  1. Skintybroko says:

    Another uncomfortable post showing us what is coming down the line, backed by a Media that don’t give a damn. Independence is our only way out of this clusterfuck.

    Delighted to see the Sec of State Against Scotland is standing down though no doubt we will get someone worse to replace him as he swans off into the Lords to screw the taxpayers further

  2. Alex Clark says:

    Unfortunately the things these creatures say do get through to a lot of people and that’s the main reason that the Tories keep winning. I spoke to someone earlier this week, someone I considered to be a very pleasant and decent guy.

    So he surprised me me when he started going on about having the unemployed fruit picking was the right thing to do if they wanted to be paid money from the state. I’v e no idea what his views are on the EU workers that left who used to do the fruit picking but I suspect he believes that it’s better they have gone and we can use the unemployed in this country to do the picking.

    I didn’t even bother discussing any of this with him and just let what he was saying drift right past me. I’m afraid I gave up long ago trying to have a conversation with people who hold such views as it seems a waste of my time as the ideas have become so engrained in them due to the exposure such views are given in the media in this precious United Kingdom.

    This guy would never think of himself as being right wing in any way, he most likely believes that he holds liberal values and even that he is slightly left of centre. That’s how far things have moved to the right, so that now, the new centre of politics in the UK is just as right wing as Thatcher ever was. As you say I think much of that is due to the right wing here trying to emulate the right wing in the USA.

    Time for Scots to “take back control” of their media, their politics and their futures.
    For that to happen we will need to win our Independence and that’s why I won’t be going back into my box anytime soon and I will never vote again for a Unionist Party based in London.

  3. Movy says:

    This needs to be delivered as a speech at the next Yes gathering.

  4. scottish_skier says:

    We had the ludicrous spectacle of Tory MP Marian Cates railing against the UK’s low birth rate.

    Also railing against teaching kids about relationships and sex, so erm, they how to produce and nurture children.

    You couldn’t actually make these idiots up.

  5. Bob Lamont says:

    Well highlighted indeed Paul, it’s been flying under the radar of the usual MSM even without James Cook’s multiple “Oh look, a ferry…” contributions to obscure what else arises in the UK for Scottish viewers and listeners which may be “unhelpful” to HMG…

    One of the more startling examples of the lunatics taking over the asylum from this ‘conference’ featured ca 2 minutes into this piece from Novara media which I’d encourage others to review for a glimpse of the alternate reality offered by the platform.

    Apparently ‘Katharine Birbalsingh” is a “Headmistress” at “MICHAELA COMMUNITY SCHOOLS TRUST” in Wembley, perfectly demonstrating how the term “TRUST” has been so abused, and who the loonies really are operating in plain sight.
    According to Barbalsingh, 99.9% of the educators in the UK are “woke” because they don’t agree with her, in Wembley…

    • Capella says:

      Crikey! That woke me up. She doesn’t need a microphone. But what a firebrand she is! If only that energy was put to good use. 😱

      • Bob Lamont says:

        The irony of Birbalsingh’s “energy” is I’d bet there are now a fair number of nervous parents looking for a change of school for Justin and/or Prudence over the summer as a result.

    • Welsh_Siôn says:

      Know your enemies >

      The Strictest School in Britain has Katharine Birbalsingh as headmistress and Suella Braverman as the first chair of governors. (I guess that should tell you enough)

      When looking into it what I noticed was that the majority of the students were Black, Brown and Muslim at this school.

      Michaela Community School. Based in Wembley Park, an underprivileged area of north London.

      The school’s 484 pupils study in an atmosphere of rigid austerity. ‘Demerits’ are given out for the slightest errors: forgetting a pen, slouching, turning to look out of a window during a lesson. Two demerits in one class equals a detention. “That’s another demerit… you’re too disorganized,” an English teacher tells one girl who’s struggled to find her textbook in the allocated ten seconds.

      The school day is run with military precision. Everything, from lessons to lunch, is timed to the second, with the aid of large digital clocks placed in each room. Teachers often give their classes a timeframe in which to accomplish a task—“Ten seconds to take out your books and open them to page 32”—before counting down backwards. The transition between classes is also timed, and completely silent. A black line runs down the center of the corridor carpets, and children are expected to silently proceed either side to their next classes. Eagle-eyed teachers stand ready to reprimand those who walk too slowly. Every detail is designed to maximize the amount of learning time. In the student bathrooms, there are no mirrors, lest they distract the students.

      Children are also expected to “track” the teacher with their eyes. Such is the range of commands to learn, new pupils joining the school at 11 years old are expected to attend a seven-day bootcamp before term starts.

      Michaela, which is regularly the subject of media attention for its dedication to discipline (hiring a “detention director,” for example) and its focus on rote-learning, or memorizing by reptition. Birbalsingh is herself a divisive figure; she first came to prominence when, as a state school teacher, she delivered a tirade against Britain’s “broken” educational system at the Conservative Party conference in 2010, a political speech that raised the ire of her fellow teachers. Her school has been picketed and broken into by protestors before, and in January its Google Maps link was tampered with, so that it temporarily read “Michaela Community Prison.”

      Ms Birbalsingh refers to herself as “Britain’s strictest headteacher” and Michaela is known for its rules and discipline. Pupils and teachers eat together at lunchtime and children serve food to their classmates in “family lunches” designed to develop the “soft skills” and table manners.


      PS According to Wiki: At university she was a member of the Socialist Workers Party and read Living Marxism.[15]

      • Melb Don says:

        I am stunned by this examination of this wrongly called school, I was a teacher of English for more than 30 years and believe this type of establishment is anti learning. As a faculty head, a year level cocordinator and Principal class I would never tolerate such methods within the schools I was an administrator at. Children do not learn in this type of environment and need a more progressive method of learning than the one written about here. It is the direct opposite of everything I wanted teaching staff to implement. Shocking if only half of what is written is true.

        • ArtyHetty says:

          It’s about brainwashing, indoctrination and basically abuse of the children and their rights. Where is the care/schools inspectorate? On so many levels it’s a horrific regime, where no child should be anywhere near. Blimey.

      • ArtyHetty says:

        How utterly terrifying. What about children with learning disabilities or those who are on the autism spectrum. The whole thing sounds like a dangerous regime, actually torturous, and basically abusive. It sounds like they breach so many childrens rights nevermind those who may need support for learning.
        Honestly it sounds like a prison camp for children, led by adult abusers…which council area in England allows this? Jeez.

    • Alex Clark says:

      Just imagine having to sit and listen to that shite for 3 whole days!

  6. Handandshrimp says:

    Starkey has always put the sting into being a Wasp. The term waspish was coined for him I think. However, he appears to have pushed the boat out even by his own eccentric standards. I wouldn’t have thought such a conference possible outside of a pub meeting of BNP members back in the 70s. It must have warned the cockles of Farage’s heart.

    That it was reported upon in the press as a serious event really does beg some questions as to where the Conservative party goes next. Assuming Sunak does lose, will Braverman or the Goveish one take over? Will England, after a brief flirtation with Labour, embrace their own Brave New World?

    Do we want to be part of this to find out or simply be bemused external spectators?

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Nobody does, least of all Scots..

    • James says:

      will Braverman or the Goveish one take over? Will England, after a brief flirtation with Labour, embrace their own Brave New World?

      Yes good chance that someone like Braverman would take over. Bu this actually reduces the chance of the Conservatives regaining power. One because she is extremly unpopular with the electorate and two becasue of this:

      The country is going to the dogs. That is the message from the National Conservatism conference and there is a long list of people to blame.

      People who do not have children. Unmarried people or married gay people who have children. (Not to mention people who think gay people should be allowed to get married.) Unassimilated immigrants. The godless. The cosmopolitans and the metropolitans. The free traders and globalists. Enthusiasts for the financial services and tech sectors. City-dwellers. The south-east of England. The managerial classes. The university graduates. People who don’t tweet using their real name or fail to change their child’s school to one that is less woke (yes, really).

      The liberal elite, obviously, but that includes the Conservative government. The so-called Conservative government, that is. There really isn’t anything Conservative about it, is there? That is why the country is going to the dogs.

      So alot of the poeople who the NatCons are blaming are traditional center right voting classes – if you start saying that they are too left wing or too ‘woke’ they will simply stop voting for you.

      This is the mistake that Labour made under Corbin. The chose an unpopular leader and then branded anyone who did not support his polices are right wing or ‘Tory light’ when in fact a large chunk of them were just traditional Labour center left voters. Unsurprisingly after doing that those voters did not vote Labour hence Labour loosing two elections.

      What you are seeing is noting new, it’s a political party in decline that instead of looking at the reasons for the decline just swing to the fringes of their political wing.

      • James says:

        Of course, like most things, this comes down to Brexit. Before Brexit everything could be blamed on being in the EU. But since Brexit (and due to it being a disaster) they have to find someone else to blame and as mentioned above thats basically anyone who disagrees with their narrow version of social conservatism. If they carry down this route the implosion of the Conservative party is going to be a sight to behold

  7. Capella says:

    I believe there is a “global liberal elite” which ” does not care about the working class”. They hang out at places like Davos and plan our future. The World Economic Forum, the IMF, the World Bank and other similar institutions are accountable to nobody. Only a genuinely democratic society could ensure that the wishes of the majority were implemented. Instead, we have something akin to The Hunger Games where we are all distracted by endless crises which we can’t escape.

    Beam us up Humza!

  8. proudcybernat says:

    The NatCs cometh.

  9. scottish_skier says:

    Coming next to our waters.

    Britain awards 20 offshore carbon storage licences

  10. Alec Lomax says:

    David Starkey – Neil Oliver’s pal.

  11. Dr Jim says:

    Both Tories have done everything but devour screaming infants in front of us live on our TV screens and the British media underplay and under report all of it
    They make TV shows full of comedians joking about how horrendous these people are making us laugh at them instead of reviling their behaviour
    The Tories have given the population of the British isles every excuse to do something about them but still the people laugh, scoff and tut tut as though this is the best we should all expect because after all it is the Tories and what can you do

    All of this is the fault of the media, it’s not funny, it’s not what we should expect and it’s not something we should all be shrugging our shoulders in defeat because well that’s just the Tories

    Whatever happens at the next general election Labour won’t win it even if they get the most votes, the Tories can only lose the election by being so awful
    The so called Labour party can’t manage to overcome the most far right fascist bunch of criminals since the 1930s lot in Germany by being the actual Labour party so they’ve become an imitation of the Tory thing they know can get elected, making them every bit as disgusting as the real Tories

    And the media helps them perpetrate these crimes upon us all

    We as a peoples whether in England Scotland or Wales are being mugged by a horror show of crimes against us all, we watch them line their bank accounts and our comedians make jokes, we watch and listen to their lies and their media softens it all up in tasty morsel bites for us so as not to horrify us too much at once

    In Scotland the media works day shift back shift overtime and night shift insisting some chump change ferries nonsense is way far in excess of anything these Tories are doing in the big London, all before they hand themselves Lordships and Baron status for screwing over Scotland then claim £100.000 grand per year in expenses along with their free champagne silver service dinners and £350 per day for wearing a squirrel coat to create the full picture of betterness than the rest of us

    And the TV programmes are filling up with comedians making us laugh at their hilarious japes in the big London parliaments of shi*ehawks

    Tories Labour, no difference, they use our money to rip us off hurt us then laugh at us on their way to the big money in the House of Lords sky, followed by pensions and paid speeches to each other, because that’s just another way of laundering the money they steal from us

    Tell us some more jokes about them BBC so we won’t notice, *have I got news for you* British media, we’ve noticed

    BTW stop expecting the SNP Scottish government to do anything about this, they can’t, and if they try they’ll be more screwed than we are

    It’s up to us, the people

    • Chicmac says:

      Someone called me out on facebook for saying Sir Keir ‘I don’t care if they call me Conservative’ Starmer was right of Margaret Thatcher yet she said her proudest political achievement was Tony Blair and Starmer said he would create Blairism ‘on steroids’.

  12. Welsh_Siôn says:

    I’m surprised that this link has been pointed out.

    They call it National Conservatism – presumably because National Socialism has already been taken. But the ideology and rhetoric is much the same.

  13. bringiton says:

    Try telling a Norwegian that he/she is Scandinavian and not Norwegian and that Norway doesn’t exist.
    That would probably be their situation if they were still governed by Sweden under an extreme right wing government in Stockholm.
    Right wing people need to feel important including by the use of violence if necessary and,certainly in the Western world,don’t come much more right wing than the present junta in Westminster.
    What we are seeing is the expression of English nostalgia for empire lost,in a similar way to Russia,and both are in for a sharp reality check.
    Action and reaction are equal and opposite and governance by dictat will eventually meet it’s opposing force.
    For now,England’s Tories rule the roost but their time will soon be up.

    • John says:

      Many people in UK (including Scotland) do not consider independence for Scotland or Wales a legitimate aim or the political parties promoting independence as legitimate political parties. Up to 2014 when independence was considered an improbability SNP etc were not taken seriously. The UK establishment got an almighty fright in 2014 and now look upon independence parties as the enemy within. Why do Tories & Labour reject any separate Brexit deal for Scotland which voted 2:1 to Remain or give no circumstances under which Scotland could have an independence referendum.
      If Nat Con types ever formed a government I have no doubt that all independence supporting political parties would be banned.

  14. James says:

    So on QT last night you had Salmond saying that a majority vote for pro independence parties at an election should be a mandate for independence negotiations and Mairi McAllan saying that if the polls are showing 55-60% in support for independence then the UK Gov would grant as S30.

    But the above aren’t policies they are aspirations, neither the SNP or Alba have any real policy to get to were they want to be. Albas policy just seems to be get angry and shout at anyone who does not agree with them and the SNPs is to release another Independence paper which even Humza Yousaf admits very few people actually read.

    Maybe a bad result in the next UKGE is what the SNP will need to wake it from its slumber and galvanise it into actually producing a policy to get support to the benchmarks it is setting its self

    • Hamish100 says:


      Yeh, defeat the snp …. Do you think Westminster cares.

      Sounds like, oh you need to vote next time for an ex fm please and he will get us independence…

      Sorry, tried that once. Didn’t work

      • yesindyref2 says:

        James said:

        neither the SNP or Alba have any real policy to get to were they want to be

        Hardly an endorsement from him for Alba, is it?

      • James says:

        I never mentioned defeating the SNP, I said it has no policy to take support for Independence to the levels it is saying needs to be reached for a section 30 to be granted.

    • Old Pete says:

      SNP getting a hammering will probably destroy any chance of Scottish Independence, possibly for another 15 years at least. We need a major win in 24, then negotiate our way out from English Tory rule (Labour or Conservative) anything else won’t do.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        It’s the GE. Still time after that for the SNP to mend its ways and go for broke for Independence again – saving the Holyrood Election and hopefully with a large overall majority and not dependent on and dragged down by, green bottles.

  15. Chicmac says:

    How can Humza dub himself the ‘continuity candidate’ when he is doing his best to ignore Nicola’s defacto referendum plan? A plan which addresses the raison dêtre of the party. And more importantly, why?

    Sir Keir Starmer has a much greater claim to being a ‘continuity candidate’ – for the Tories.

    • Legerwood says:

      Did he dub himself as the ‘continuity candidate’ or was that dreamt up by the media because they thought it would damage his leadership bid?

      • Chicmac says:

        Pretty sure I remember him saying it, at least in the earlier hustings. The media may have coined the phrase, I don’t know but I doubt it was to damage his chances, I got the impression he was the one they wanted to win.

        • Capella says:

          I think he started off calling himself the continuity candidate (or words to that effect) too. But he quickly changed to calling himself the change candidate after Kate Forbes took the same stance and said continuity won’t cut it.

          He also copied Kate Forbes in focusing on poverty after she made eradicating poverty her core message.
          But, I admit, I can’t be bothered scrolling through all the old videos to back up my recollection!

  16. Ken says:

    Bring on a GE.

    People who support Independence need to get out and vote. Take another with them. Every election. People who support Independence need to vote for Independence supporting Parties. Not unionists. Parties. A higher turnout to vote the opposition out. Bring Independence.

    Appeal to the UN. Supporting the rights to self governance and self determination when people vote for it.

    The Brexit catastrophe just gets worse every day. The Tories are on their way out, Keep them out of any hue. Red, yellow or blue. Vote for Independence Parties.

    Some people complain about not getting Independence but vote for unionist parties???

    A higher turnout f Independence supporters voting would achieve it. March to the polling station, To cast a vote,

  17. Ken says:

    Times are a’changing. Look forward not back. Learn from the past but look to the future. No stagnation. To a better future of self governance and self determination support increasing.

  18. Ken says:

    Look forward not back,

  19. yesindyref2 says:

    From the National:

    KEITH Brown has insisted the SNP must get better at highlighting a vote for independence is not a vote for an SNP “government in perpetuity”.

    But before that the SNP must get better at changing back to the way it used to be, so that a vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence. At the moment it’s a vote for “progressive” green twaddle virtue signalling.

    “Delivering progress for Scotland”

    Meaningless political flummery.

    • Alec Lomax says:

      Someone who doesn’t set much store by ecological matters.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        I support Independence Alec.

        After which Scotland can do what we want without having to blame Westminster.

        How about you?

        • Alec Lomax says:

          Aye, the climate is going to bide it’s wheesh until Scotland gets independence.

          • yesindyref2 says:

            So for you climate is more important than Independence.

            Doesn’t make you a bad person.

            It just means you’re not qualified to criticise Indy supporters in terms of support for Independence.

            For me, Independence is the top priority, as from there all things can follow.

  20. Dr Jim says:

    Reading Richard Walker in the National this morning he among others is insisting we must convince England that Scotland is not anti English
    I find this an odd observation on this subject because England in general is anti everyone who’s not them, if they were not then they would never have lost their empire and lunacies like Brexit would never have happened, so why on earth should anyone in Scotland be concerned as to whether England thinks we’re anti English or not is a puzzler to me

    The media Britain wide insists we must have respect for the office of Prime Minister that England’s voters choose for the rest of us yet have no respect as to whom Scotland chooses for our own First Minister, yet another puzzler if you’re advocating convincing the nation of England that honest to god we have respect for them while acknowledging we have no respect for ourselves because England’s in charge

    I see no problem in being anti anything that subordinates another for no reason other than the delusion of superiority, and England suffers from that delusion
    No man is better than another, only wealthier or more powerful, but not better by birth or you might as well convince yourself that it’s not only the English Royal family that’s better than all us Scots or anybody else, but all English people are better thus we must show deference and increased respect to them as superior

    My guess is like me most Scots will be anti England, and if any people that come from that country behave like arseholes then it’s more likely more Scottish people are anti arseholes and not anti every individual English man woman or child

    Nobody has to plead with anyone to like them or convince them Scottish people are anti or pro whichever nationality they might or might not be
    So I would say to Richard Walker and anybody else that thinks in this way to pack it in and stop being so forelock tuggingly deferential in efforts to convince arseholes of any country that Scots think they’re wonderful

    We have plenty of arseholes to go around right here in Scotland without worrying about England’s over abundance of them

    • bringiton says:

      The trope frequently used by people to support the continuation of the Anglo union is that Scottish democrats must be “anti English”.
      This is just a cop out to avoid having to address the lack of democracy in Scotland which is the real issue.
      Their latest trick is to say that since Scotland isn’t a nation/country then there is no democratic deficit.
      They can’t have it both ways and it will be interesting to see how that assertion pans out with Scottish voters.
      We need to highlight this.

    • ArtyHetty says:

      Excellently put.

  21. scottish_skier says:

    Just to put things into perspective.

    2017-2019 UKGE VI average with over / underestimation compared to final 2019 result:
    39(-6)% SNP
    25(-)% Con
    23(+4)% Lab
    8(-2)% Lib
    5(+3)% Other

    Average since 2019:
    46% SNP
    24% Lab
    20% Con
    6% Lib
    4% Other

    Average of past six months:
    40% SNP
    30% Lab
    18% Con
    7% Lib
    5% Other

    Aye, SNP were heavily underpredicted. They were getting what they are now for basically the entire period. Then at the end they surged to 45% in the final weeks.

    So I think polling experts are right to say the SNP shouldn’t be too concerned. Their main rivals have utterly failed to make any gains on the back of Sturgeon’s departure and the Daily Record’s ‘Probably a wild goose chase’ finance thing. The fact that Yes has been totally unimpacted supports this; Yes down along with SNP would indicate moves back to unionism. That’s not happening and never will based on long term patterns – just continues slowly in the opposite direction.

    We saw a similar pattern in 2017-2019 where the SNP vote was not being picked up due to their voters being harder to reach mid term. We also saw the ‘Revival under centre left Corbyn’ vanish like snaw off a dyke as the day approached. Likely a tactical factor here too. After all, the way things are now, if you want to tactically stop the Tories, it’s the SNP now. So whereas in the old pre-2010 days you’d see SNP share drop to Labour as the day approached to ‘not let the Tories in by the back door’, so it happens to Labour now; the party that drilled this voting approach into Scots.

    If an actual moderate left Labour leader couldn’t revive Labour in Scotland, a right-wing anti-immigrant brexiteer isn’t going to!

    Unionists really need a lot of senior SNP convicted of serious crimes if all the effort they / the British media have put into this. They’ve really made a huge gamble here. If the Daily record is right and there’s little or nothing to it, the SNP should surge on the back of that, and Yes too.

    • Anonymousey says:

      > The fact that Yes has been totally unimpacted supports this

      That they even thought otherwise is very derogatory in an underhand but notable way.

      The entire argument basically is “Scots are incapable of home rule” because Sturgeon maybe stole a pen.

  22. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    At The NatCon Conference Tory MP John Hayes says that the rise of “Welsh and Scottish identities” devalue British identity.

    Sure Tory John Hayes has NO problem with the rise in English identity mainly because he, like others of his ilk, associates it as being synonymous with being British…..

    At the SAME conference we had Nigel Biggar state :

    “Too many Scots align themselves with Scottish independence because they inhabit, imaginatively, a false vision of the past.

    This biased narrative excites unjustified nationalist indignation and resentment against the English and Britain today”

    Hugely ironic that Biggar accuses Scots who support independence as “aligning themselves with a false vision of the past”….

    Especially when we see his kind of preferred BritNat nationalism that is’ very much “”aligning themselves with a false vision of the past”….as in THEIR version of a past British history… that they think was and is still NOW paved in glory and ruled/rules within the world….and they still do think this….mostly via exceptionalism and a deluded sense of supremacy…..BELIEF has a lot to answer for here (as opposed to ACTUALITY)………

    SAME British history that has always been one that has seen the dominance and control as being WITH the English within ALL of the BRITISH establishments and institutions within their rogue state aka Britain….

    Nigel , John and those other political BritNats (English Nationalists) promotion of their “biased narrative (THAT) excites unjustified nationalist indignation and resentment against” those of us in Scotland and Wales who do not pander to Tory English rule and decisions made in WM in London THE capital city of ENGLAND…..NOT for OUR benefit but for their party’s benefit and too their wealthy donors who benefit from receiving lucrative Tory government contracts and also all of the TAX benefits they get via Tories still being in power……(Starmer wants some of that same action too for his new Tory party should they win the next GE)

    Lo and behold just like Tory John Hayes….Biggar concludes that this results in “indignation and resentment against the English and Britain today” as in some of us in Scotland refusing to see any VALUE or PRIDE in identifying as being British (or in meekly accepting that England thinks it OWNS us and indeed that we know that ‘British and English’ is seen, by THEM, as being one and the same)…….being a part of Britain has done NOWT for Scotland other than it as a state steal our resources for their English government’s treasury and then tell us that we are the poor ones in their Britain that they need to subsidise…..while expecting us to forget that WE contribute to the wealth of THEIR Britain as we are a still a PART of it (unfortunately)…….so really they mean ENGLAND subsidises us but cannot say that part out loud in case it prompts a rise in Scottish independence support…..

    So much said by Tories of ALL colours against independence for Scotland….

    SAME independence they assure us is not wanted in Scotland yet instead of ignoring it and treating it as insignificant and thus giving it the little attention they say it deserves….all they do is TALK against it and about it…as if they KNOW it, for them, poses a real threat to their (Dis)United Kingdom remaining intact…..and too of ENGLISH rule in their UK aka (not so) Great Britain…..

    Keir Starmer we KNOW has NO problem with English identity as he did a WHOLE VIDEO celebrating St George’s day (as in their English patron saint)….which he managed to also MORPH into Britishness…..while adding a subliminal message of ‘Scotland WE, England, OWN you’ when he added TWO images from Scotland into the video that was supposed be solely be a video celebrating Englishness and thus showing areas in England…..who cares if you offend the Jocks though….certainly NOT Keir Starmer that’s for sure……

    Do you know that you now get a BritNat award for identifying as being British or English BUT ” you only need to say you identify as being Scottish…and you get put in Jail” …LOL…I’m laughing but wouldn’t be surprised it some want it to come to that !

    • Dr Jim says:

      The sheer arrogance of these people to basically state that the English *gave* Scots the lovely new shiny identity of being *British* so we must be an ungrateful bunch of throwbacks not to accept that, and how very dare we reject their wonderful offer of being their subjects

      The trouble with this argument is Scotland was never *offered* anything as though we had a choice, it was supposed to be a union of countries that Scotland was joining up to and that turned out to be not the case, our identity was taken and English Britishness was imposed in the same manner they did with their decayed empire, and that is the very reason they now have no empire

      The Arrogance of Perfidious Albion, all they did was take off their Pith helmets, but in their minds they’re still wearing them

      • Anonymousey says:

        > it was supposed to be a union of countries that Scotland was joining up to

        So we’re told.

        The reality was more gunboat diplomacy, with the alternative being invasion. Scotland still hadn’t recovered from Cromwell’s recent occupation & was in no state to fight yet another war with a nation that was relentless in it’s intent on occupying the entire island.

    • Chicmac says:

      Watched RRR. Boy was it an eyeopener to Indian optics on the English Empire. It was like Braveheart on steroids with a bit of Bollywood glitz thrown in.

      Well worth a watch if you have a spare 3 hours+.

      Oh and before anyone objects to ‘English empire’ that is what they called it. One of the final scenes zooms in on a burning banner on which is written ‘The Sun never sets on the ENGLISH Empire’

  23. yesindyref2 says:

    THESE are the last 7 opinion polls, all the ones from after the election of Yousaf as leader of the SNP and FM. SNP %age only as who cares about the rest?

    27 Apr – 3 May 2023 Survation 39%
    30 Apr – 2 May 2023 Redfield 36%
    17–20 Apr 2023 YouGov 38%
    29 Mar – 3 Apr 2023 Survation 38%
    31 Mar – 1 Apr 2023 Redfield & Wilton 38%
    28–31 Mar 2023 Savanta 39%
    28–30 Mar 2023 Panelbase 37%

    All of them are below 40%, and the SNP looking at losing at least 16 seats, down to 32 at most. Compare to last autumn when at one stage with one poll at 51% it looked like a clean sweep.

    Meanwhile support for Indy stays steady at around 48%. Which means many Indy supporters not going to vote SNP on current form.

    Why do most people vote SNP, is it:

    1. So some people get to enjoy Westminster hot spots
    2. So Scotland with its 0.08% world population can save the world from the harmful emissions of Tories
    3. To promote the healthy composting of tea bags
    4. To put the council recycling purple bins out of a job
    5. Independence Independence Independence.

    IF the SNP want Independence supporters to vote SNP, even if holding the nose and dancing a jig on their elbows, they need to return to promoting Indpendence.

    Complacency and sheer ivory tower ignorance will return them to pre-1974 levels of support. And as Indy really needs the SNP to have any chance within the next 3 decades we all need the SNP to stop being thick.

    • scottish_skier says:

      NP %age only as who cares about the rest?

      The rest are very important. Some of those polls have 9% ‘other’ which is completely unfeasible. It’s usually a couple of % at most, meaning the other numbers are not reliable indicators of what would happen, even theere was a snap GE tomorrow.

      This is because pollsters use non-standard methods in Scotland, such as prompting for the Greens alongside the SNP. This deflates SNP but doesn’t happen on the day, if simply because there’s no green standing, and that’s before tactical voting kicks in.

      • James says:

        none of the polls have other on 9% not even close they are showing average of 2-4% (when green is separate) and 5-6% when green is included in other. Reform is getting 2-3% of other.

        • scottish_skier says:

          Meant eg

          • James says:

            What Scotland thinks bundles green into ‘other’ even if it was promoted. For that you gov poll its Green 5% reform 2% other 2%

            Click to access Results_230420_Scotland_VI&Others_W_.pdf

            • scottish_skier says:

              9% other simply means the poll isn’t useful. It means we can’t trust the other numbers much.

              Lab to snp tactical to stop the Tories won’t be present either. That can be easy 5%

              We are also missing voters who are not responding as often happens mid term. Hence low projected turnouts.

              These polls don’t tell us what the outcome of an election would be. Only if there was an election in the next few weeks would they be useful for that.

              All they say is that the snp are on top and lab / con have failed to make progress in the past 6 months.

              Polling right now is totally normal. Been like this for years at times, eg 2017-19.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      And HERE is the actual 2019 GE result for Scotland, shows “Green +Others” at an actual total of 1.7%.

      SNP 45.0
      Conservative 25.1
      Labour 18.6
      Liberal Democrats 9.5
      Green 1.0
      Brexit Party 0.5
      UKIP 0.1
      Others 0.1

      Latest Survation (thanks Scot Goes Pop who was in hospital after tripping over anchor chains in Liverpool docks, and whose crowdfunder needs money money money) with Green + others at 4%

      Scottish voting intentions for the next UK general election:

      SNP 38% (-2)
      Labour 31% (-1)
      Conservatives 18% (+1)
      Liberal Democrats 9% (+2)
      Greens 2% (+1)
      Reform UK 1% (-1)
      Alba 1% (-)

      What’s needed is cold hard facts, not ridiculous la la land spin saying “it’s all fine, full speed astern Titanic [and the SNP will plunge below 30% of the vote]”

      • James says:

        Indeed. There is still plenty of time to go till the election, but unless it is first recognised that the SNP are struggling electorally presently you cant take the measures to change things. Of course recent history shows that ‘Brexit loving right wing parties’ can take a chunk of the SNP vote and seats if conditions are right.

        • yesindyref2 says:

          It’s a problem. The SNP are like a bunch of lemmings charging towards a cliff, laughing and giggling and pointing out how bad Westminster is, and anyone who stands in front and says STOP gets told to eff off to great applause from the other lemmings.

          Yousaf unfortunately being the worst of the “We’re doing great” and ignoring the polls. All 7 of them now. All with the SNP on LESS than 40% for Westminster.

          • Hamish100 says:

            Pretty rude. We are not lemmings nor laughing and giggling. Most of us are really quite sensible folk but do recognise the underminers, nibbling in the corners aiding and abetting the Brit nats.
            Some even hope the snp fail so arising from the ashes a bold new leader will appear with a new party claiming victory to GBNews then they wake up to the reality.

            • yesindyref2 says:

              You mean well, and you’re far from the worst of the “nothing to see here” people. And I did my time during Indy Ref 1 and up to a year or so back, shoveling sawdust over the manure the SNP spread around “It’s good for the roses”.

              But they’re heading the wrong way, and saying “it’ll be alright on the night” is doing nobody any favours.

              The SNP talk about complacency and then presume all indy supporters will vote for them. They talk about governance review and then get the exact same people internally to do the review who caused the problems, rather than engaging an external consultancy. They have their heads in the clouds.

              Here I’m mostly a lost voice, and a greatly abused lost voice, but there are others with courage who do the same. And no, for most it isn’t some brave new leader, it’s a reform of the SNP without which indy ain’t going to happen for 3 decades or so.

          • scottish_skier says:

            2017-19 Polls
            – 11 polls with greater than 40% SNP
            – 4 polls at 40%
            21 polls less than 40%

            Outcome = 45% SNP.

        • scottish_skier says:

          that the SNP are struggling electorally

          Which means that that all the other parties are struggling much, much more.

          The worst case outcome based on unrealistically large shares for minor parties such as the Greens have the SNP taking a comfortable majority of MPs. I fail to see how that’s ‘struggling’ electorally outside of British nationalist speak. Projections for Labour based on the English council elections have them struggling for decent majority!

          And we don’t even have manifestos never mind an actual election. It’s nonsense to use current mid term hypothetical polling as any judge of anything, especially when this is coming up with up to 10% ‘other’ nonsense.

          Jeez, labour were miles ahead of the SNP 2010 right up to 2014 for Westminster. Then their vote collapsed out of nowhere. Mid term polls were utterly useless in predicting 2015.

          More recently, 36,37% SNP was really common in the last parliamentary term, 2017-2019. Panelbase had them on 38% in their final poll ahead of the GE. This was all chocolate teapot polling. Mid term polls worse than useless. The SNP got 45%.

          You can also see how the ‘other’ was at totally silly levels at times until the 22nd of November, about 3 weeks from the vote. It’s silly to look at current polls as anything other than they are – at most a rough guide to relative ordering right now, but no use for predicting anything.

          It’s all made worse by the fact most pollsters in Scotland use non-standard methods, including weighting to elections way back in the past rather than the most recent only, of course nonsense 2014 weighting. This was likely a big factor in them getting 2019 so wrong.

  24. Daphne says:

    Please excuse the breenge but here’s a film trailer no one will ever see on the BBC. It is the story of an activist from Musselburgh who campaigned during a certain referendum. You know the one we were told nobody wanted. The one 96% of Scotland registered to vote in, yup, that one.

    • Capella says:

      Wow – that is so sad. Hard to watch but I will watch the film when it comes out. We have to rekindle hope.

  25. P Harvey says:

    STV, this evening have moved on from the ferry’s
    Apparently it’s sewage dumping in the sea now
    Only 3.5% of sewage outlets are monitored in Scotland versus 91% in England
    No definite evidence supplied but lots of insinuation 😡

    • Bob Lamont says:

      HMS James Cook dumped it like a hot potato this morning after the shit hit the fan….
      That low percentage of CSOs are the ones SW and SEPA agreed to monitor as they may ‘potentially’ be a source of pollution – For further info have a peek over on Tus…
      It’s a distraction to bad publicity over pollution in Tory England, and DEFRA being hauled before the High Court to explain why they’re not doing their job of policing and prosecuting, unlike SEPA…..

  26. scottish_skier says:

    If there’s one thing that’s become clear to me in recent weeks, it’s that Sturgeon stepping down hotly followed by finance thingy (aka the ‘wild goose chase’ according to the Daily Record) having the sum total of zero impact on support for indy is really rattling unionists. They are pooing bricks. Mid term polls are now grasped as the saviour of the union etc.

    I find it particularly amusing that North British Labour are supposed to be ‘making a comeback’ by going nowhere, having been stuck at the same VI for 8 odd months now since minibudget movements from Con to them. But then Brenglish Labour are tanking in UK polls as they move right, having lost 10% at least since late 2022. If UK labour are on the way down, Scotch Labour are not going to be on the way up FHS! Sarwar needs to back indy if he wants Labour to win again in Scotland.

  27. scottish_skier says:

    Latest on the ‘British union revival’.

    Initial results indicate Sinn Fein gains in Northern Ireland local government elections

    DUP Leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson says a splintering of the unionist vote has led to the loss of some seats in the local government election.

    As counting continues on Friday afternoon, early indications suggest a strong Sinn Féin performance. Michelle O’Neill has hailed it an “historic” moment.

    UUP leader Doug Beattie said unionism was “taking a hit” across the board.

  28. Capella says:

    How can you argue that recent difficulties for the SNP have had zero impact on the support for independence? Surely support for independence should be over 80% in any normal country. We note week after week the effect of the MSM in manipulating public opinion and suppressing voting intentions. If we can’t see the problem then we can’t deal with it.

    • scottish_skier says:

      If that was directed at me, I was simply noting this pattern:

      Which is consistent with ‘recent difficulties for the SNP have had zero impact on the support for independence’.

      • Capella says:

        Yes I was responding to your comment above. Your graph doesn’t show independence over 50% although I remember it was 58% at some point last year. so I am puzzled by your numbers. You have it at 49% now whereas James Kelly quotes Survation at 48%.

        But my point really is that the MSM manipulate public opinion and their constant attacks on the SNP suppress the vote. Current woes are part of the overall pattern IMO. It should be over 80% given that there ill always be a proportion of NO voting idiots in most societies. I think Norway managed almost 99% in their independence referendum in 1905,

        • Alex Clark says:

          Even someone who always takes an optimistic view could never see support for Independence over 55% without there being an immediate referendum. It kind of stands to reason that it couldn’t get much higher without rioting if there wasn’t one.

          Anyway the reason support for Independence is not consistently above 50% has little to do with the failures or successes of an SNP government but has much more to do with the success of Westminster and their media at manipulating opinion in order to make the SNP look bad no matter how better they have been than Westminster in governing.

          Also it really doesn’t help in the slightest when those that support Independence continue to side with our enemies in attacking the SNP by talking them down at every opportunity.

          The vast majority of the public are not political anoraks and washing your dirty linen in full view is a huge turn off for most off them. I don’t see the ned to give them pelters, i know the Unionist media already do plenty of that without me joining in.

          I see my role as persuading others to support Independence and I very much doubt I’d succeed if in the same breath I was to tell them how shite the SNP are at governing.

          I know there are those who will disagree but in my view the best way to achieve Independence is to convince another person and the best way to do that is by encouraging them to support an Independence supporting party and not to attack any of them just because you don’t agree with some of their policies.

          After all nobody’s perfect and that includes SNP politicians and their policies.

          • scottish_skier says:

            You clearly understand things in a way British nationalists do not. It’s natural; only Scots understand other Scots.

            Scots will have their independence when they want it. That’s problem Yes parties face; they are a product of rising support for indy, not the cause of it.

            But then that’s an even bigger problem for unionist parties, who are lost to the bulk of Yes voters.

        • scottish_skier says:

          Do you have a link to Kelly’s graph? I can overlay. Without a graph it’s impossible to see how Kelly’s numbers look over time / in comparison with previous.

          I’m not sure how you could be puzzled by 49% if you are comparing to 48%? These numbers are statistically identical. Swings and roundabouts really. Variance is 6% on normal polls.

          I don’t understand the comparison with Norway. Why not say, Malta, which voted Yes by 54%? It, at least, was previously under British rule so would automatically be a more natural comparison.

          Can you send me a link to your ‘80%’ number, or is that something you just made up randomly? Thanks.

          • JoMax says:

            And weren’t the people of Malta subjected to the same onslaught from the usual suspects that Malta couldn’t possibly survive without the support of the British because …. too wee, too poor. It was an article in The Times in 1959 which stated amongst other things that the country couldn’t survive without British Treasury intervention. No food, no work, no nothing. Where have we heard that before? Thankfully a majority had the guts to ignore it. Time we did too.

          • Capella says:

            Kelly doesn’t have a graph. He analyses the recent Survation poll. That puts independence on 48% +1. Since I haven’t seen any recently that puts independence higher I assumed 48% was the mean.

            I compared Scotland with Norway because IMO any normal country would have almost universal support for independence. If it is not universal then there must be some confounding factor. The MSM is one obvious culprit, there may be others. The fact that Malta was under British rule explains why their referendum was only 54%.

            My 80% was hypothetical. I explained it as 100% minus a one in five incidence of idiots who are prepared to shoot themselves in the foot when ordered.

            • scottish_skier says:

              A large proportion of ‘native’ born and bred Scottish people are variably British in their national identity too. Some are 100% that way.

              This has been in long term decline as Britain / the empire declines, and so UK unionism with it, both here and in the north of Ireland. I expect in Wales too due to devolution, but I have not looked.

              As a general rule, people who see themselves as Scottish only are more pro-indy, with Brits pro-union. Scottish ‘only’ voted Yes in 2014 for the reasons you note.

              For many people here, Britain is their country or one of two they have. They therefore feel attached to it in the same way we Scottish (only) feel attached to Scotland. Hence me suggesting you can’t compare to Norway and other countries which have been independent for a long time. Those having recently departed Britsh rule are your best bet. Many of these still show attachment, having a British flag in the corner of their own while sharing Charles as head of state. But these ties, like our own, are slowly being broken too as the sun sets for the final time on the British empire. When we go, it’s all over. Britain no more.

              I prefer to look at the bigger picture when analysing polls, hence always plotting things up to put individual polls in context. Doing so for example shows that R&W polls are in all probability horse manure – outliers to the pack. A look at the details and they have e.g. 16-24 less supportive of yes that 25-35, meaning their sample is not representative of Scotland. They also do things like weight to make results not match the last election etc; something I showed before. Treat with caution. That said, it’s in my average of YN ‘tomorrow’, making this very conservative.

              And remember that this is not a graph of who would vote for independence. That should be higher, hence it has peaked so. It’s a graph of those lost to the union who cannot realistically be persuaded back. The people who need no white paper, no guarantees on the EU, currency etc. For them, the decision is made and they will vote Yes tomorrow no matter what. They are no longer even thinking about their decision. They have made it, often a long time ago, and that’s that. Like the people who live in independent countries that you talk about.

              Incidentally, when people ask me why I support indy, I say, being Irish, I support it for Ireland so why not Scotland? Also, my wife supports indy for France, so naturally Scotland. Nobody ever counter argues this – how could they. Helps to be a dual national, which dispenses with any concept of us being ‘British’ without even having to say we are not.

          • Capella says:

            Norway shares many similarities in its history which makes for a good comparisons in many ways, including sovereign wealth. Although there was c 100% vote for independence, they also voted to retain monarchy and so invited a Dane to become king. See wiki

  29. Dr Jim says:

    If you Google how many times has Nicola Sturgeon’s life has been threatened? you can only find two references, and one of them was hard to find
    Why is that? because it’s not true, it’s more and we know it was more, and these occasions if it were any other politician would have been wall to wall media coverage, but there wasn’t, why not?

    35 years of being committed to independence, the top job, the most respected politician in Britain, hugely respected and popular throughout the rest of the world then she’s gone, and the word she used as her reason was “polarizing”
    Then immediately following her resignation we have an English government controlled media explosion of the most and biggest SNP bad campaign we’ve seen since I can remember

    Call me a conspiracy theorist and I’ll quote the name of another SNP politician who’s now *gone* permanently because of a threat to England that he posed

    Something’s more than wrong with all of this and I believe it’s showing in the media’s over exuberance in their *don’t look at England look at Scotland* propaganda campaign

    England is in the worst state it’s ever been in with simply the worst people in charge of it and the media moves its entire focus to SNP bad, Scotland shi*te ?
    I’m not buying this!

    We the Scottish people picked Nicola Sturgeon many times over to lead our country

    England didn’t like that

    • Golfnut says:

      Way to much credence given to polls right now, used to manipulate public opinion they are part of the overall narrative of SNP baaad, worse than baaad, useless. Worse than useless, incompetent. Worse than incompetent, dishonest, etc etc etc.
      These polls are part of the campaign to undermine the only party that can muster enough votes to get us out of this union.

  30. Alex Clark says:

    Nicola Sturgeon resigned because she was worn out. The abuse she went through constantly for the last 9 years would have knocked lesser people out of the game well before she made her mind up to call it a day.

    This woman was never out of the spotlight for those 9 years, she had very little privacy and her political outlook and opinions were mercilessly attacked day after day by the UK’s biased media.

    It probably really started to hurt though when in 2017 the SNP lost 21 of their 56 seats and that was any dream of another referendum over for the time being with support for the SNP dropping from 50% to just under 37%. That was definately NOT a time to be thinking about holding another referendum, that was a time to try and get back on track.

    It was great that they made a decent comeback in December 2019 when they managed to win back some but not all those seats with 45% of the vote, a pretty familiar number at least to me. It gave me some hope that maybe in the next year or two there would be another referendum and this time it would be won. I believed.

    We never got the chance though as in March 2020 we went into lockdown and Covid put paid to any thoughts of a referendum anytime soon, and that’s when the frustration really set in with many supporters of Independence. Naturally the frustrated just blamed the SNP for “not really wanting Independence” or of being “too cosy in their Westminster seats”. This is natural and people had to have someone to blame for the lack of progress and to take their frustration out on.

    That someone was Nicola Sturgeon, of all the critics she had and there are many, the ones that must have stung the most would have been those from ordinary supporters of Independence just like me and like you. Leading the country through Covid, losing in the Supreme Court the Section 30 fight all would take their toll. Throw into the mix the questions over SNP finances and the furore created in Westminster over GRR reforms and it’s no surprise that you might decide to walk away having felt you have done all you can.

    I am an admirer of Nicola Sturgeon, as probably the best politician I’ve had the pleasure to follow, head and shoulders above even the best known ones from the past. No, she hasn’t made Scotland an Independent country but I think she done as much as she possibly could to persuade the people of Scotland that we should be Independent.

    The only reason Scotland is not yet an Independent country is because of us, the people posting here and others like us who can talk about Independence all day long and yet have failed to persuade enough people to support Independence. It has very little to do with any perceived failures that some in the media might have you believe were down to the leadership of the SNP and Scottish government lead by Nicola Sturgeon. Much of the Westminster strategy for defeating “nationalism” in Scotland is focused on splitting support among the many groups.

    Something that I think they have been very successful at and is one of the main reasons that support seems never to budge. United we stand… and you know the rest.

    • Capella says:

      A moving tribute to Nicola Sturgeon. Perceptive in identifying the Westminster role in bringing down the leader of the independence movement.

  31. Bob Lamont says:

    Totally OT but amusing.
    Whilst demoted from the main page, HMS James Cook’s smokescreen article to England’s increasing row over pollution, “Scotland’s river sewage must be more closely monitored – charity”, yet lurks this morning in 4th spot on BBC/Scotland/Politics, .
    The photo deployed at head of the article labelled ‘SCIENCE PHOTO LIBRARY’ looked decidedly suspect for Scotland, so did an image search to identify the source photo location-
    “Pipe discharging waste water into River Severn England UK”
    You really couldn’t make it up….

    • Hamish100 says:

      Bob, bbc make it up all the time! Well spotted. Personally I call it lying.

    • Dr Jim says:

      Was it in an email? because James Cook sees all and knows all the emails including the ones he makes up

    • Welsh_Siôn says:

      To confirm Bob’s research:

      Sewage hits dozens of beaches in England and Wales after heavy rain

      17 August 2022

      Note in this case that ‘England and Wales’ is used to describe:

      “Many of the beaches contaminated are popular resorts and include:


      But … only 1 out of 11 is in Wales.


      “The majority are along England’s south coast.”

      The companies involved are all in England:

      “Southern Water is one of the water companies responsible for those regions, along with Wessex Water and South West Water.”

      PS Environmental matters are devolved to the Senedd in a Welsh context in any case.

      Either way, you can rely on the BBC to deliver sh*t.

      • Bob Lamont says:

        Ooer, so the Beeb-Beeb-Ceeb have used it previously – I forgot on the image search to look for a date and a more precise location, but the photographer was definitely attributed.

        The irony of HMS James Cook’s attempt to divert attention from England’s woes to Scots by using a photo from England was what tickled me – I’m a specialist in that field, so took great delight in tearing a new arsehole in the source “report” from MCS and BBC Scotland with it.

        What surprised me on your own find from an article in 2022 is a curious correlation to the Severn – Bridgend’s beaches are on the estuarial discharge from the Severn – For sure there are direct coastal and estuarial discharges from Wales, but I found no evidence of breaches on the Welsh side which could possibly explain the effects on ‘Rest’ and ‘Sandy Bay’ from Wales.
        My conclusion can only be that the Welsh are being fed much the same industrial strength propaganda by the BBC over England’s “policing” of discharges as there is in Scotland.
        What price low water rates since 1989 ? England is about to find out big time…

        • Welsh_Siôn says:

          You might have seen this, too, Bob:

          Tory MP mocked for recollection of swimming in sewage in Wales

          18 May 2023 3 minute read

          A Conservative MP has been ridiculed after comments about swimming in sewage at a Welsh beach when he was a child.

          Barry-born Damian Green, was appearing on ITV’s Peston programme when he said it was “sort of regarded as acceptable” to swim in wastewater at Jackson’s Bay.

          The MP for Ashford, 67, drew mockery from many on social media.

          He said: “It’s a problem. I’m absolutely not denying that it is a big issue. But it always has been. It’s interesting — I remember as a child in south Wales swimming in sewage. Jackson’s Bay in Barry used to be a sewage outlet where we all paddled and swam. And it was sort of regarded as acceptable. Of course it wasn’t acceptable.”


  32. Ken says:

    Independence supporters do not go out and vote. Or vote unionist.

    Independence 50/50

    Independence supporters turnout is low. Every election.

    Local/council elections 40% turnout on average 40%

    Holyrood election turnout 50%. GE turnout 60% (FPTP) higher turnout. SNP+ win. Referendum 85% turnout. Different criteria. One question. Increased support from 2014. Independence would win because of increased support.

    A higher Independence turnout needed at Local and Holyrood elections to get rid of the opposition. STV /D’hond’t Imposed on Scotland without a mandate.

    Independence supporters not voting or voting unionist.A higher turnout needed.March to the Polling station and take another Independence supporter as well.

    Times they are a’changing.

  33. UndeadShaun says:

    Just like the mcrone report, but withholding the truth on how bad the privatised water industry would be.

  34. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    Anas Sarwar has decided to join a picket line outside the private school he sends his children to.

    The SAME School that Anas Sarwar attended as well.

    Here what the BBC tweeted on this :

    “Teachers strike in pensions row at First Minister Humza Yousaf’s former school”

    Yep it IS the same school that Humza Yousaf attended….. but is THE real story here not the fact that Anas Sarwar, a former pupil of this school and the same one that his children currently attend, is now joining a PICKET line with staff from this SAME school .

    Why have the BBC highlighted Humza Yousaf ONLY as being a former pupil in their tweet but NOT Anas Sarwar who , in THIS matter, is actually more INVOLVED in this particular story….as in HIM , Sarwar, joining Staff from this old school on the picket line (which for a Red Tory is a rare event as Starmer does not like , encourage or support Labour politicians joining ANY picket lines…as optics look bad with gammons….. and spoils their, Labour’s, new “more Conservative than the Conservative’s” Tory image)…….

    Must the BBC always find a SNP link even when the issue is not CURRENTLY linked to the SNP but IS linked to a Pro UK party politician whose involvement is obscured/omitted in their headline or tweet……well the answer is YES they do because that is all part of their ongoing propaganda against the SNP…..

    If you go to their BBC website re this story the headline on this story is :

    “Teachers strike in pensions row at first minister’s former school”

    You need to go down to the fifth paragraph to see ANY mention of Sarwar as being a former pupil at this school but that paragraph STILL also includes Humza…”It is the first strike action in the history of the private school – which boasts both Mr Yousaf and Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar among its former pupils”

    Nowhere in their story on their website do they note that Sarwar had joined the picket line with staff from the school…..too busy trying to create another tenuous #SNPBAD link……

    Is it the case that they are trying to HIGHLIGHT the fact that Humza attended a private school while also trying to obscure the fact that Sarwar did too ????…

    It’s the old HEADLINE trick….while other more PERTINENT FACTS noted much further down in the text of the story as in Sarwar also attended this PRIVATE school……but some of the FACTS of this story that are linked to SARWAR are not included in the BBC website story……as in the REAL story here is SARWAR’s actual current INVOLVEMENT as in him being THE one on the picket line with the staff…..of HIS former school….

    Facts and details matter to us but NEVER ever to the British Broadcasting Corporation in Scotland….

    Their job is to OMIT any #BAD details linked to Pro UK parties.
    To OBSCURE any #BAD linked stories on Pro UK parties
    To PROTECT Pro UK parties from all #BAD ACTUAL stories

    While simultanously INCLUDING (no matter how tenuous) any #BAD links they can generate via stories promoted and prompted mainly by opposition parties against the Scottish government…..
    HIGHLIGHTING any #BAD stories that they can try and link to Pro Indy parties…..
    Constantly TARGETING via a succession of #BAD headlines and stories against any Pro Independence parties especially the SNP but also , since Greens involvement in Scottish government, then they too are also targeted by the BBC.

    (To do this they, the BBC, need to include exaggerated, fabricated and sensationalised #SNPBAD stories to try and destroy the public’s confidence in both the SNP’s competence and effectiveness as a devolved government and thus , they hope, that then destroys the credibility of them, the SNP, as a party having the ability and competence to govern well in an independent Scotland) ………..alas a lot of Scots see the alternate government , the UK one, as actually being THE one who is truly incompetent, ineffective and clearly unable to govern well in their UK… we are living (suffering) through the mess they are making in their UK….together with their scandals and corruption minus the blue tents …..what the HELL is happening currently with the scandalous Michelle Mone investigation ?…same one currently NOT being covered/noted by BBC Scotland …..for reasons …too obvious…. but ones I explain above…..

    ‘How the BBC stole the referendum’…..and they are STILL at it.

    Have a nice day everyone


    • Handandshrimp says:

      One thing we have known for a long time, the BBC is not a reliable source of information. The pretty outrageous introduction to QT by Bruce is a surprisingly obvious and blatant example but there are countless examples of editorial bias by the BBC. It is an organ of the state and it’s output should be read as such.

      • Dr Jim says:

        I think we can pretty much rule out any democratic political pressure or any other legal method to deal with the disgrace that is the English government controlled media in Scotland, and their employees

        For what they’ve done and keep doing, be it on their own heads

  35. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    Here’s two examples of how Tories are promoting the message of :

    ‘ Lower your expectations and start to embrace lower standards and quality in Brexit UK’

    Tory MP Brendan Clark-Smith argued that if Heinz beans price is too high then buy Tesco own brand….in LBC debate via Iain Dale’s show.

    Damien Green argued that in HIS day when he was younger, he and others , used to swim in rivers that had sewage “but it used to be perceived as more acceptable”… ITV’s Peston show.

    So basically do not aspire to IMPROVE your life in Brexit UK and thus expect it to be or assume it will be BETTER…..just make do and get on with it….while THOSE who are asking you to do this and too those who donate to them aka Tories…..well they will never need to make the same choices as you as they are living their best lives….best food, best drink and for some…..say like Rishi Sunak (and t’others) well they have their OWN swimming pools on their property or membership to (exclusive) private Health clubs with swimming pools … who needs rivers to swim in….with no plebs allowed…or sewage.

    Note though that SOME own supermarket brand foods have ALSO increased in price but Brendan Clark-Smith will, like his other Tory pals, not be fully briefed on that…..and sure Heinz will just love the fact that an MP is trying to dissuade the public from buying their produce while advertising Tesco own brand (wasn’t their, Tesco, CEO one who was invited to No. 10 for a discussion this week into food prices)…….plus Damien Green harps back to t’olden days when you had to put up with sub standard conditions as his government chooses to VOTE for a bill that continues to prioritise water companies profits over public health concerns…..well they are Tories are they not……that’s what THEY do !

    Facts matter as does reality …..but not to the Tories it seems…..indeed all Rishi Sunak can say when he speaks is that he is “delivering for the people in the UK” yet his troops (MP’s) prove that all he is delivering is second rate sub standard options as in NO choice (or cheapest and thus too sometimes the worse choices) and too in them harping back to (the bad old) days when poo in rivers was no big deal for ordinary people in England….aye times were hard in t’olden days but NOT for those others who were wealthy and thus that is very much STILL the case NOW…..

    Yet the ONE choice that we here in Scotland DO have that England does not have is that all of this could STOP for us via the one choice that they, Pro UK politicians and their media, are all trying to prevent us having in the next GE….that is in voting FOR the SNP via a majority and then , if we do vote for a majority of SNP MP’s, we would be more than justified in having a second Indy Ref…aka an escape route from all of this S*** (rhymes with PIT)…..

  36. scottish_skier says:

    British unionism has taken another major knock in the north of Ireland.

    Sinn Fein set to win the elections / come in first place.

    • Dr Jim says:

      Yeah but the DUP won they said, they have the mandate, they said, it’s the other parties fault that DUP voters didn’t turn out for them, they said, unionism is rock solid, they said, people in Northern Ireland want to be in the UK, they said

      Well not today say the numbers, and the wee twerp Donaldson replies with the word he relies upon, law! because the word democracy means nothing to these Royal loyal British UK fascist religious zealots, oh and the DUP too

  37. yesindyref2 says:

    The special independence convention is set for June 24 at Caird Hall in Dundee.

    That is an early chance to reverse the current decline in SNP support for the UK GE, and the YES movement will be watching carefully I daresay.

    Will it be “This conference resolves to ask Westminster for another Section 30 pretty please more gruel?”

    Or will it be “This conference resolves to adopt Sturgeon’s announcement, supported by Yousaf, to make the next General Election a de facto referendum”?

    Will Yousaf be a strong leader like Sturgeon, or say that member democracy is the reason for begging for yet another mandate for yet another now desperate plea for a Section 30?

    On that decision, the future election prospects of the current 45 SNP MPs who need our votes to be re-elected, depend. And maybe Independence within 3 decades.

    Choose wisely.

    • Golfnut says:

      Good news surely Yesindyref2?

      • yesindyref2 says:

        Not the wrong way the National frames it:

        The event will be attended by SNP members and will be solely focused on how Scotland is able to hold a legally binding independence referendum.

        Hoever, Yousaf twitter frames it far more accurately:

        Independence Convention in June where members will discuss range of options on our path to indy

        I presume this is just the increasingly poor standard of reporting by the National.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        There’s also this from Yousaf: “New indy campaign materials ready

        and this from Guiliagno:

        Very pleased NEC has also agreed restoration of National Council in end August.

        This puts members in the driving seat on how we deliver independence

        So potentially all very good news 🙂

        • Tatu3 says:

          Also Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp from Believe in Scotland has been having meetings with the new Independence Minister. More good news

  38. yesindyref2 says:

    The SNP are lucky to get Caird Hall, and 57% YES Dundee is a great place. I went across on Indy Ref day from my 75% NO area with big YES card in window, getting waves and cheers and some road rage, and we went to the YES bar in Hilltown where beer was half price or £1 I forget. Then to Mennies which was great; a little after 10 pm along came some YES activists from the polling stations looking a bit subdued but maybe they were tired. Spoke optimistically though.

    Then to the Union for the results, which weren’t great to start with – and got worse. Final straw was Dundee coming in at 57% instead of the expected 75%.

    It’s a great place for the SNP to discuss how to get Indy. And by the way, for those complaining they won’t be at the AUOB march on the same day, as I say, they’re lucky to get Caird Hall so soon with I think 3,000 capacity. What should be the SNP priority after all?

  39. Hamish100 says:

    One for WS,
    I see on the bbc, Therese Coffey, food , environment and rural affairs minister (bbc forgot to add in , England) in answer to a question from Kuennsberg about sewage waste discharge in Englands bathing waters is that Wales is much worse.
    So that’s the English ministers response to everything. Kuenssberg in fairness did point out she is responsible for England. Deflect, lie, blame is the Tory way

  40. Hamish100 says:

    Forgot to add Coffey says the only reason we know about sewage pouring into rivers and seas is due to the wonderful Tories insisting on monitoring outflows. Something not happening in Scotland. This is not true of course, Deceit, lie, blame is the Tory way.

    • bringiton says:

      Apparently,some Tories claim they monitor it by swimming in it.
      Probably explains the brain damage.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Which is why presumably DEFRA are due in the High Court next month accused of the precise opposite..

  41. Welsh_Siôn says:

    Another poll for S_S and other number crunchers. Westminster voting intentions from YouGov for Cymru.

    Conservative – 19% (-1)
    Labour – 49% (no change)
    Lib Dem – 8% (+3)
    Plaid Cymru – 10% (-4)
    Reform UK – 9% (no change)
    Green – 4% (+1)
    Other – 1% (no change)

  42. Ken says:

    The Tories are still not winning. Out in a few months time. Despite the posturing and posing in Japan. The usual off abroad posturing when everything is falling apart. Trying to take collateral damage elsewhere. To cover up and avoid the collateral damage in their own back yard. A few months to go.

    Get out and vote for Independence Parties at every election. A higher turnout. Take another along as well. A higher turnout. Not voting unionists. Times they are a’changing. Support still there and rising to the occasion, Westminster parasites on the down scale. Pride comes before a fall. The Tories the biggest fail of all. Waiting for a massive fall. Time is running out. A whole new landscape is opening up. March to the Polling station. Vote for Independence. A higher turnout. Do not abstain,

  43. Dr Jim says:

    Labour won’t *win* anything, it’ll be up to the Tories to decide whether they want to lose

    The plucked chicken philosophy, strip the chicken feather by feather until it stands motionless, then feed the chicken back up and it follows you round the barnyard like a pet grateful for the corn you gave it

    If that doesn’t work, kill the chicken

    Putin, England, same method of control and empire building

  44. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    Oops..added below to the WRONG thread as in onto the previous thread…sorry Paul for duplication and also for the length of my comment (and sorry also to others on here).

    On MSM Monitor Twitter a/c a tweet showing the headline on a story via the BBC on voter ID….. the BBC headline on this story was :

    “Local elections 2023: Thousands didn’t vote due to ID rule, data shows”

    MSM Monitor tweeted in response to BBC headline:

    “If it’s the ‘controversial’ GRR bill and the ‘controversial’ Deposit Return Scheme. Why isn’t it the ‘controversial’ Voter ID rule”?

    INDEED especially given their, BBC, above headline and also much of the CONTROVERSY it , Voter ID, caused and too the OPPOSITION to it as a TORY UK government Act….when many opponents to this act presented the facts that it was deemed unnecessary considering it was disproportionate in the context to the ACTUAL proven instances of ‘personation’ at polling stations last year and before in previous elections……well I would say THAT IT then deserved the description of something HUGELY CONTROVERSIAL…..a bit ironic this Voter ID being implemented …..considering MORE people were UNABLE to vote in recent English council elections BECAUSE of this NEW TORY Voter ID Act than there was ACTUAL voter fraud committed prior to this in previous elections ……

    AND then post the English Council elections……

    One JR Mogg, on LBC, suggested (let the cat out of the bag) that it, Voter ID, as an act was implemented to see the “government attempt to suppress Labour support” they, the government, assumed many Labour voters would NOT have the necessary VOTER ID that was accepted as evidence at the polling station…as in evidence such as passports, Driving licence BUT strangely an EXCEPTION to their RULE was made that 60+ Oyster cards and Older Person’s bus passes were being accepted as valid ID….. BUT NOT Young person’s rail cards and Oyster cards ……as in TORIES assumed the 60+ voter were more likely to vote CONservative……now that to ME is CONTROVERSIAL….but hey we have a BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation with TORY plants who operate within it from the TOP and too I think also all the way down to it’s ‘Political editors’ within it’s organisation…….so they always favour presenting LESS criticism and use of words like CONTROVERSIAL when anything connected to the Tory party….however same JR Mogg then said ” it came back to bite them”… in them the Tory party….. as he said it had “made it hard for our own voters” to take part in England’s local elections….OMG what an ACTUAL very CONTROVERSIAL thing to say and DO…..via everything connected to this ACT…..

    So…back to Scotland’s Deposit Return Scheme….

    The BBC (yet again) found another vocal #SNPBAD opponent to a Scottish government act in one Dougal Sharp, the founder of Innis and Gunn , who questioned the “legality of the scheme and raised concerns about its costs to businesses and consumers” here in Scotland….yet his company exports to SWEDEN who operate a Deposit Return scheme, and they, Innes and Gunn, also export to OTHER countries in the world who MAY or MAY NOT also have this same scheme….SO…. has he, Dougal Sharp, raised concerns to SWEDEN (and other countries he exports to who may also have this scheme) about the “the legality of their schemes and raised concerns about their respective scheme’s costs to businesses and consumers” ……questions questions….as in ones the BBC will never have asked HIM…..and I suspect questions he did not want asked……which would then lead to what Prof John Robertson stated as quoted below…..

    Pro John Robertson of Talking up Scotland stated in an article on March 3 this year the statement :

    “Why Innis & Gunn owner Dougal Sharp is either a hypocrite or a Tory or both”

    To add insult to injury we also hear that ONE reason the UK government may VETO this scheme is that , according to them, it impacts the UK-wide Internal Market Act…..

    The BBC , in January 2023, had an article on the UK government introducing a Deposit Return scheme for recycling plastic bottles and cans…..the BBC in the article stated:

    “The scheme will see customers pay a small fee that is refunded when they return empty containers into special vending machines that will be placed in supermarkets around the country.

    It is due to be introduced in England, Wales and Northern Ireland in 2025”.

    NOWHERE in their article did the BBC state this scheme, via the UK government, could be perhaps considered CONTROVERSIAL and OPPOSED by businesses within the UK….like say Innes and Gunn to name but ONE business who oppose it being implemented in Scotland……so basically ONLY in Scotland is it considered both CONTROVERSIAL and something where they, the BBC, will ALWAYS find SOMEONE within the business community who OPPOSES it….as in anything proposed or implemented by the Scottish government…BUT elsewhere …especially if via UK government, it is just presented as an initiative with details on the scheme and how it will WORK…..

    Are MORE people in Scotland really NOT seeing a pattern of behaviour here….especially with the BBC but not exclusively just them as the majority of MSM also operate in much the same way AGAINST the Scottish government and anything SNP related (whether factual or otherwise…mostly otherwise)….and also do the people in Scotland not realise why this is ?…….it really really really is NOT rocket science surely……..

  45. yesindyref2 says:

    National main page:

    Campaigners accuse SNP of ‘contempt’ as independence convention clashes with rally

    making it sound like campaigners – lots of people – are complaining. But actual story:

    AUOB accuse SNP of ‘contempt’ as special convention clashes with rally

    That’s the one person who thinks he or she is more important than the whole of the SNP, and wrote this ignorant nonsense on twitter:

    We wrote to Humza inviting him to speak at Stirling 24 June, and received a weird reply- swiftly followed by news that he’s chosen to clash with the National demonstration by holding a SNP conference on the same day. Why? Reactionary and contemptuous. De facto anti-YES behaviour.

    which the National gleefully picks up on.

    Langers. The lot of them.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      What is needed is for the sensible moderates in AUOB to take back control of AUOB from the divisive egotistical idiots.

      All Under One Banner my hairy rear.

    • Golfnut says:

      Anyone used to booking venue’s would know you either book the venue well in advance or at short notice take whatever date you can get.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        What the AUOB should be doing is something along the lines of:

        “We welcome the SNP convention and are glad they chose the same day as our march. This shows how we all want Independence and are prepared to work for it.”

        And the chants could be

        What do we want? Independence.
        What do we want from the SNP? Independence.
        What do we want from the SNP at their convention today? A solid genuine plan for Independence.

        Instead we get AUOB complaining about the very thing some of them have been complaining about NOT happening.


    • Isabella says:

      Well said, some of the BTL comments on the National are verging on the hysterical. I’m getting fed up with all the negativity, some folk are just never happy.

  46. Stuart Baxter says:

    It appears to me, as an Independence supporter of some 40 years, that the majority of posters on here, relish pointing out what is wrong with every Political Party except the SNP.
    It must be obvious to all that the SNP is in an almighty mess yet too many people cannot or refuse to see it.
    My dream of Independence for Scotland is currently dead in the water until there is a massive cull in the SNP ranks. Sadly most Scots appear to concur.
    If this post is deleted it only confirms my thoughts.

    • scottish_skier says:

      Maybe you have some secret information on the SNP we don’t have? I have lots of British nationalists telling me the SNP is a mess like you are, but they tend not to provide any evidence in the same way you are not.

      If support for Yes first thing tomorrow without any plan on anything – from currency to the EU – is at very worst >49%, with the SNP well out in front in all polling mid-term 16 years into government is ‘a mess’, give me more mess!

      Labour have crashed in UK polls, losing 10% in recent months to the total mess which are the Tories is ‘a mess’. Their northern branch offices failing to make any measurable gains in the face of the SNP losing its popular leader and being investigated by the Police is definitely ‘a mess’. Alba on course to lose every single MP while even the worst polls have the SNP getting another majority is ‘a mess’ (for Alba).

      All of these parties would cut of their right arm to be in the ‘mess’ the SNP is, what with it’s electoral dominance, rising donations and growing membership.

      Only fools would focus on mid term polling as it’s been totally wrong every time so far, and that’s before any finance thingy effects. The Daily Record has already hedged it’s bets on this all being a wild goose chase. If they are right, Scottish unionism will be in serious s**t. Would break the union’s back. They really need multiple senior SNP convicted of major crimes here or all the stories of late will backfire completely, boosting the SNP big style. That’s what polling is saying after all.

    • Alex Clark says:

      You do appear to relish a fair bit yourself in pointing out “the SNP is in an almighty mess” and then go on to call for a “massive cull in the SNP ranks”
      I’d say it’s obvious that people like you are a massive turn off to those in the general public that we are yet to persuade that Independence is the best way forward for Scotland.

      As for the claim that “most Scots appear to concur” well you’re not going to help matters by continually “relishing” putting the SNP down. Sadly.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Oh no sir, your “If this post is deleted it only confirms my thoughts” was possibly the biggest load of shite since Theresa Coffey last made a public statement or exploded an innocent toilet.

    • Hamish100 says:

      Sorry mr Baxter. I beat your 40 years. As the well know phrase currently in vogue “ I smell sh..te!”
      As to your solution of culling snp supporters is rather curious because if you were a snp supporter you would cull yourself!

      Maybe , just maybe you support independistas but I suspect you ain’t a snp supporter. In that respect bugger off!😇 and sort out your independence movement by advancing your 2%!

    • Capella says:

      I would agree that the SNP is in a mess, but not an “almighty” mess. I resigned after the shenanigans of the leadership contest which, for me, was the last of many straws. The drop in membership from 125,000 to 72,000 doesn’t inspire confidence. The drop in polling to the low 30%s is also a concern. If the next general election is to be a de facto referendum then the vote needs to be above 50% not below it.

      I am waiting and watching. Humza Yousaf was not my choice of leader but he has performed much better than I feared though his choice of cabinet does not inspire hope. If the leadership is prepared to examine the problems and fix them then the SNP can certainly bounce back and win an independence vote.

      Don’t give up hope! There is still a large groundswell of support for independence which just needs to be inspired and motivated.

  47. scottish_skier says:

    Incidentally, I read today that the campervan was never insured. That ties in perfectly with it being a business purchase intended for campaigning use during covid (to avoid hotels), but never used so never ultimately never insured. As it was not insured, it would need to be kept on private property. Private property where people would keep an eye on it for security purposes.

    I can see why the Daily Record are hedging their bets here. Coming on 7 weeks now since PM was released without charge. All we’ve heard since is that the police were looking for a ladies’ razor and a wheelbarrow.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      “All we’ve heard since is that the police were looking for a ladies’ razor and a wheelbarrow”
      Cutting edge technology…

  48. Ken says:

    The camper van could easily be sold and the remuneration be refunded. Another storm in a teacup. A mountain out of a molehill. The Cops acting on malicious complain,. Wasting £Billions of taxpayers monies. That could be better spent.

    The Rangers fiasco. The Dalmond show trial. The camper van misappropriation. The Police wasting £Billions on malicious complaint. At the unionist biding,

    The Police budget should be cut. The justice system wasting monies on non safe prosecutions and conviction. Westminster led interference is Scottish society and community. Unionist place people led.To attempt false convictions and waste £Billions trying to tarnish the Scottish Gov for political reason.

    A total fraud. A farce of injustice of political conviction. Westminster defrauding Scotland of £Billions and trying to obtain illegal gains.

    Vote them out soon. The opportunity is coming. March to the Polling station. Take another of conviction too.

  49. Ken says:

    People can go marching. People can go to a convention. Enough to fill a hall and enough to March. No conflict of interest. Just different approaches, March to the Convention. Or March to a rally. Some people are not physically able to march. The prefer to sit down at a Convention or a Conference. Accommodates all intentions. No problem at all. All aspects catered for. Another storm in a teacup. Mountain over a mole hill. Marchers coming over the hill. Or going to a Convention. Or a conference centre. Or working or staying at home. Joining in on the Internet, Circumverting every eventuality. Huge support for all.

  50. Stuart Baxter says:

    My post earlier today has survived!
    One thing I have to clarify-I meant the culling of SNP Politicians. To be replaced by individuals who actually WANT and will FIGHT for Independence. Too many are quite happy to drift along, picking up a generous salary, almost unlimited expenses and building up an attractive pension pot. All the while pursuing policies the average Scot does not want or believe in.
    The response from the few who responded are just as expected. A refusal to see things how they actually are. The First Minister resigns. Her Deputy resigns. The CEO of the Party resigns. The head of the police, appointed by the FM resigns. Police investigations ongoing, Ferries debacle, GRR fiasco. But, according to some, the SNP is not in an almighty mess!!!
    I have come to realise that I will never see an Independent Scotland. Any one else in their 60’s will be the same.
    There are millions like me in Scotland who are politically homeless. The current crop of SNP politicians are NOT the answer. First step is to ditch the Greens.
    I await the claims that I am a Unionist or an Alba supporter. I am neither-just an unblinkered realist. Some of you should try it.

    • Capella says:

      So if the next GE is a de facto referendum will you vote SNP? I will. You don’t have to be a member to vote SNP if that is a vote for independence.

    • scottish_skier says:

      You sound so very unionist. It’s like you are reading from the same script. You even squeezed in squirrels, sorry ferries, given how important this is to people looking at the floor in shame as they stand in the queue of great British foodbanks.

      I really like all my local SNP candidates. After all, I helped select them in a democratic process. Twice. I see absolutely no reason not to vote for them.

      Nobody in the SNP has done anything wrong according to the Police, hence nobody has been charged never mind convicted. That might change, but for now it’s the correct legal and moral conclusion. Only unpleasant people would judge the SNP on this in the absence of guilt. If e.g. one or two people were found to have been up to no good, again, only deeply unpleasant people would judge the rest of the party by the actions of these. I will judge who I vote for based on their actions alone, not how someone else acts. That’s just how decent, honest people behave in a liberal democratic society.

      You further give away your disdain for democracy by suggesting that SNP elected members be ‘culled’ by someone other than party members / the electorate at relevant ballot boxes. That’s classic Tory type thinking.

    • Alec Lomax says:

      I’d have thought that the SNP government’s prime duty was to the Scottish electorate rather than the prima donnas of AUOB.

    • Eilidh says:

      I am presuming you do realise that to cull means to reduce a population by slaughter. Whilst cull is usually a term used in regard to animals you clearly are using it as a threat of violence against humans and I don’t give a stuff whether you meant Snp members of which I am now one or Snp politicians I find that part of your post highly offensive and doubt that it would have lasted long even on The Nationals comnents page. If you said that in the real world you may have ended with a visit from the polis or worse although I doubt you would get the full blue tent treatment from the polis. As for the rest of the drivel you have written here today, well all I can say if you are a fine example of the Independence movement you will encourage not one extra person to support Indy. Thankfully I know there are a lot of good people involved in the Indy movement.
      It is clear you are a troll although I am not sure what type of troll you are, unionist, Alba or just psycho bampot. Perhaps a mixture of all three. Enjoy sleeping in your troll cave tonight the rest of will keeping living in the real world.

    • Dr Jim says:

      England will not recognise democracy of any description when it comes to Scotland, so what is your suggestion of a solution to put to a democratic political party in order to achieve Scottish independence, bearing in mind that whatever Alex Salmond says is doggy doo and costing him nothing to say it because he has nothing to lose so makes up any old guff that no one will bother to hold him accountable for because he’s an unelectable toxic nobody that Scotland will not vote for, therefore he can’t win anything and he knows it, so everything he says is to cause damage to the SNP and for no other reason

      So England bad, Salmond bad, what’s your solution? get rid of the SNP? well that’s the same result England and Salmond want, so you’ll forgive people suspecting your intentions when all you have to offer is the same as the opposition

      Unless you can tell us what you would ask the people of Scotland to replace the SNP with of course, and how you’d go about that, then we’re all ears

    • Alex Clark says:

      Have you ever stopped to consider that the 90% of Independence supporters who have chosen to stick with supporting the SNP through thick and thin might be right and that it is YOU who are in the wrong?

      You are aware the main weapon Westminster have against Independence is to use everything they’ve got in their propaganda bank to pit one Independence supporter against the other and have them all fighting among themselves instead of attacking Westminster?

      Whether you like it or not, you’re one that has fallen for all the shite they have thrown at the SNP in order to defeat “Nationalism”. You’re being used so I’m not surprised to hear you’ve totally given up on the hope of seeing Independence in your lifetime. That’s why you’re so bitter and feel the need to lash out at the SNP, maybe if you were a bit more positive and hadn’t thrown the towel in, you would feel more like the posters who still come here.

      We believe we will be Independent in out lifetime even if we are getting on, what we didn’t do is “get back in the box” and give up, which is exactly what they want us to do.

      Why are you even posting here quitter?

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      Hi Stuart….in respect to your initial comment about the “SNP being in a mess”….forstly apology for LONG response…I have FORM on this…LOL

      Well firstly …..let me say this is NOT a unique example of a party in the UK seemingly in a “Mess”…….but alas what is considered as an SNP mess and what is considered a Pro UK party mess are defined , by the media, as being in different leagues……as when the SNP are promoted as being in a MESS that means independence is DEAD and too that must then result in the party imploding but for Pro UK parties in a MESS then the (non) Union is never regarded as being at risk or indeed the respective Pro UK party being destroyed…….

      Strange is it not….but convenient too…for those who are promoting this message…as in the SNP are in a mess….via the constant campaign there is and has always been in trying to bring down the SNP…..and thus independence….

      Labour….they were in a mess when Corbyn was leader when the Blairite’s in the party who were determined NEVER to support him mounted a challenge on his leadership… and THEY decided to do it at a time when they KNEW most people would be distracted by the Brexit result….as they did it just after the Brexit result thus we had what was referred to as #ChickenCoup……this was done by SOME of their MP’s at a time when this HUGE decision had been made in the UK (mostly England) as in the BREXIT result….that would have a HUGE impact on their UK….but they failed to unseat him as leader …and lo and behold the Labour party, as a PARTY, survived after that MESS that THEY themselves generated….and they did THIS at a time when it should have been regarded as a GROSS dereliction of duty in them being the supposed official opposition party to the current Tory government in the UK parliament….

      The Forde report conclusion , which has been largely ignored by the media, cast lots of criticism on the Labour party…..a report , at considerable expense for the Labour party, and one that Starmer himself requested but then he ignored it as the findings were NEGATIVE for his party and proved that HIS party were in fact a MESS….

      Then there is the journey Labour have been on via Brexit where once many MP’s within their party were promoting a second ‘People’s Vote’ on the Brexit deal and now they are , via Starmer via a HUGE U turn, are promoting BREXIT itself….what a MESS…for them.

      AND some within the Labour party in Scotland are pro GRR but the media in Scotland have made their involvement and support exempt from criticism as they , the media, ONLY want to focus on the SNP as being complicit in and responsible for the GRR bill passing in the Scottish parliament….( and the Green party too)….

      BUT the Labour party have survived post these instances of their party in a MESS which are not the ONLY incidents/examples of their party in a MESS…

      The Lib Dems themselves have also been in a mess when one of their MP’s, when he was a minister in the Tory/Lib Dem coalition, was found to have LIED to the public and to the media (about what he knew) about a fabricated tale he promoted about Nicola Sturgeon and the French Ambassador……he later wrote to the FM and the French Ambassador apologising for his “error of judgement’… that is a MESS but the Lib Dems rallied round him and we even had a Lib Dem Lord (Malcolm Bruce) say in HIS defence that ” all politicians LIE”…..OMG….what a shocking MESS and admission to make…to try and justify what was clearly a political attack on an opponent….

      Then there was the scandal with (Lord) David Steel when it was revealed that he had DONE NOTHING after Cyril Smith had confessed to him that he had abused boys…..Willie Rennie, when party leader of Lib Dems in Scotland , held an ‘investigation’ on this and then used the excuse post investigation that ” the issue had boiled down to a hearing difficulty”…..and thus Steel was NOT expelled from the Lib Dem party ….or rather what resulted post this investigation was referred to as a ‘Whitewash’ …..

      NOW more is coming out CURRENTLY on problems within the Lib Dems, ones that once again the media are reluctant to pursue, via an ex member of their party….which involves Willie Rennie, ACH and some Lib Dem MP’s… a ‘whistleblower’ who has made many SERIOUS accusations about the party as an ex member of their party…..

      AND the Lib Dems ( in Scotland and UK ones too) are pro GRR but the media in Scotland have made their involvement and support exempt from criticism as they , the media ONLY want to focus on the SNP , as THE ones being complicit and responsible for the GRR bill passing in the Scottish parliament….(and the Green party too)….

      BUT the Lib Dems have have survived post these instances of their party in a MESS which are not the ONLY incidents/examples of their party in a MESS…

      The Tories …well where DO you start with ALL of the many many incidents that has seen THEIR party in a MESS…too many to note….and too many people on here and outwith here MORE than aware of the many messes linked to THEM….so no need list them….plus way TOO many to list….

      Plus three of their MSP’s are pro GRR but the media in Scotland have made their involvement and support exempt from criticism as they , the media ONLY want to focus on the SNP , as being THE ones complicit in the GRR bill….(and the Green party too)….

      BUT the Tories seem to have survived post these instances of their party in a MESS of which there are TOO MANY , to list on here, of the actual incidents/examples of when their party was in a MESS…and STILL is in a MESS

      I wonder if supporters of Pro UK parties think that when THEIR respective preferred party is in the midst of a crisis or are in a MESS that then will result in their party imploding as a political force…or PERHAPS….more sensibly they will take the rough with the smooth and continue to support them…..

      The difference being of course is that the constant forensic scrutiny and concocted overblown stories are largely reserved for the SNP as the Scottish government….also known as propaganda…NO political party is perfect……but the media and too the opposition expect the public to believe that the SNP is the exception to that rule…as in they must be perfect….while both the media and opposition themselves are very far from perfect ….the evidence is out there on both of them that clearly shows that NOT to be the case….look how the media and opposition parties go to extreme lengths to convince the public in Scotland that the SNP are NEGLECTING their duties as a government and instead they, as a party in government, focus solely on independence yet these same opponents neglect (intentionally) to also state how they as opposition parties and too as a media obsess about their (non) Union ……while we in Scotland witness how woeful the Tories are in their mismanagement in their duties (lack of) as a UK government….

      I am an SNP member…I vote for them in elections….I am not expecting them to be perfect after all tis clear NO party within the UK is PERFECT …..and I am fully aware of the relentless campaign against them by the media and others……my support is not BLIND and also not infinite….and it IS very much dependent on them proving that they will and can deliver an effective campaign to gain independence via a second Indy Ref… I will continue to support the SNP just now , just like those, who continue to support Pro UK parties through THEIR constant and incessant bad times, until I decide that they are not worth voting for …. to gain independence for Scotland…..

      We are all frustrated just now but who ever thought it was going to be easy….we are up against ones who play dirty and who play by much different rules….as they have a (non) Union to save…..this is ONLY the start of what will be a unfair fight…as we have the UK establishment against us….opposition parties, the media and many other questionable opponents…..but I am not going to jump ship at such a crucial time….we are starting at a point when we are at a MUCH higher percentage via polls than where we were at in the outset of the 2014 Indy YES campaign…’s OURS to lose if we abandon THE party most recognised BY the general public as THE party FOR independence….

      If you have read this then thank you….if you disagree then that’s fair enough you are entitled, like me, to your opinion, we can agree to disagree…..but alas sorry I am not going to stop supporting or voting for the SNP….

      I wish you well…and hope you have a nice day


  51. Handandshrimp says:

    I do weary of the moaners. They flew into a squawking rage when the independence conference was cancelled, now they are in squawking rage because they don’t like the wording or the date or whatever. The numbers at the conference will only be a fraction of the SNP membership. It is hardly likely to affect the numbers at Stirling. Indeed, so anti SNP has AUOB become it make no difference to the Stirling march at all.

    I saw somewhere that SGP (or possibly Wings) that this is the final betrayal. Good! If it is the final one then they won’t be putting forward that argument again.

    When it comes to referendum my view is that we are arguing about angels and pinheads. If Westminster refuses to recognise whatever we do, de facto or whatever then they will not engage in realistic independence discussions. They may even start arresting people and shutting down Holyrood. Consequently people throwing toys left right and centre because the SNP do not do things exactly the way they, in their infinite wisdom, see as the obvious simple solution are putting the cart before the horse. If we had a solid majority for Yes there might be some merit in trying to force Westminster’s hand but we will look pretty daft if we only get 45% on a 65% turnout.

    We need to be cunning, more cunning than a fox that studied cunning at St Andrews.

    • Dr Jim says:

      Some people can never apologise for wrongdoing once they’ve done the deed, because they don’t want to appear stupid after the fact, Brexit is a case in point, England pretty much wish they’d never done such a stupid thing but they’ve stuck themselves with it and the British media won’t let them reverse or change their mind because they’re doing what the Tories tell them to do which is support your current local gunfighter Sunak even though he’s an Arse, but British British Royal and all that stuff

      SGP is another one who can’t admit his whole Salmond flirtation was dumb and dumber, so week after week he churns out nonsense to satisfy an Alba audience of angrys to keep his blog alive, I don’t know if he lives off the thing, if he does it’s a poor way to live

      WOS is just a bad angry troublemaker obsessed with himself, he’ll say and do anything to make other people angry then sucks that up as his lifeblood to survive upon like a human vampire bat with no particular political ambition other than chaos, pretty much the same as Donald Trump, cause bother then gobble it up

      People are frustrated, we all get that, but some are falling for the disrupters, the chancers who feed off that frustration, they fuel it then drink up the outpouring of sadness or grief strengthening themselves to cause even more frustration

      There are bad people out there with nothing to offer except more bad, these are the people we shouldn’t listen to

      There are lots of things we don’t like, I don’t like blue cars but I don’t go round demanding we get rid of them or kicking the doors in of other folks that do, and if I needed a lift in one of those blue cars on a rainy day I’d say thanks mate nice car

      • Handandshrimp says:

        The bizarre thing about Wings and SGP is that they are both Alex Salmond supporting, Alba supporting anti GRR types who have an intense dislike for the SNP but apparently loathe each other.

        I suppose it is splitter squared or something 🙂

        ( I quite like blue cars but it doesn’t make me a bad person….bit baffled by the current trend for matt grey cars though)

  52. Pogmothon says:

    There U go Stuart Baxter
    Wait a minuet(sic) colon campbell, phazer ferguson, minion menzies, stirrup baxter. U all seem to have one or two clan names, is this fifth column camo 4 Jockland ?
    But I digress please see the attached.

    Have a nice day ya’ll

    • Gay Sandy says:

      Great minds think alike Pogmothon! It’s exactly what I thought a trumped up load of twaddle and should have been sniffed out sooner you made my day thanks lol !

  53. James Mills says:

    I support …the People’s Front of …no , wait a mo … I support the …what’s that name again ? AUO…no , that’s not it … Wing s over …. SDP …SGP … SOS …..? That can’t be right….It’s that party that most Scots vote for , that’s won every election since Lord McConnell got his rabbit-skin coat , the one that the media love to give a daily kicking , the one that ( some would have us believe ) most of its members hate it now and are resigning in their millions to join the Flat Earth Society.

    I am being told that I should know better and listen to the voices who tell me that millions of Scots hate this party and have left it in the last ten minutes and are flocking to join the real independence party of … what ‘s its name …the one with the BIG PLAN to get Scotland independence by the end of the week ?

    Anyone who loves their country will be supporting all the splinter groups who have decided that THEY have the bestest way of getting the Westminster Bad Boys to do their bidding because Westminster Bad Boys know that it is not the party with the largest membership , the most councillors , the most MSPs the most MPs which is to be feared , it is the guys /gals on the fringes who have poached their MPs/MSPs?councillors from the Big Bad Party and are holding their annual conventions in former VW campervans .

  54. yesindyref2 says:

    For those that like making up squiggly Kelvin Vague like graphs, here’s one from wikimedia, as used by wikipedia (link may or may not work!):

    So there’s this, extrapolating the falling SNP support:

    Dec 22 44%
    Jun 23 35%
    Dec 23 26%
    Jun 24 17%
    Oct 24 11%

    Now, nobody in their right mind would actually think there’s a snowflake’s chance of that happening in the real world, but similarly nobody in their right mind would say that there is no problem.

    There is a problem, and problems need solutions. Let’s hope that happens on June 24th in Caird Hall Dundee.

  55. Hamish100 says:

    I’m sure you are trying to make some sense here? 🤔

  56. Stuart Baxter says:

    I am not really surprised by the responses to my last post.
    Too many responding with their hearts instead of their heads, Not certain if the ability to think has been mastered by some.
    Another big push for Independence coming along any day now is the cry.
    Actions speak louder than words.
    I shall leave you to it.

    • Alex Clark says:

      That’s probably for the best, you’ve given up anyway unlike those responding with their hearts.

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      Hi Stuart, I have responded to your comment above…’s long so you may choose to not read it…which is fair enough….or you may have now left this site …..and may not even see THIS comment….or me t’other one….

      Have a nice day (if you are still around…..that sounds ominous LOL…meant have a nice day anyway…. as in if you are STILL around and read THIS comment ..LOL)


    • Golfnut says:


    • Dr Jim says:

      Indeed, best to leave it to us seeing as how you’re obviously a political giant and we haven’t mastered the ability to think, and of course we being the majority of the people must now be seen as an obstacle to your minority yet more relevant view of how things should be

      Very Tory Alba Wingsy style opinions you’re expressing here, still, I’m sure you know best

    • Pogmothon says:

      now let’s all be grateful for small mercy’s

  57. Skintybroko says:

    Chris Hoy on moaning Scotland going on an on and on about SNP should be doing the day job and concentrating on the cost of living crisis, the energy crisis and the NHS crisis instead of independence – not once was he reminded that it was his party that have caused all of these problems and as usual absolutely no right to respond for the SNP – absolute travesty of reporting. He even sidestepped the question of the Brexit referendum – class act in blaming everyone but themselves

  58. Bob Lamont says:

    OT but featured on C4 is –
    “Home Secretary Suella Braverman’s speeding row could threaten public confidence in the criminal justice system, says Alistair Carmichael MP, Liberal Democrat Home Affairs and Justice Spokesperson”

    Pot/Kettle ?

    • Dr Jim says:

      That’ll be the same Alistair Carmichael who was found guilty of being a liar in a court of law then stepped outside and claimed he had been completely exonerated
      That Alistair Carmichael? the big tubby red faced Liberal Democrat liar from Orkney where they only vote Liberal Democrat because the Tories can’t win there ?

      He does know how to organise the massed ranks of the type two diabetes retirees from a foreign land though

  59. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    The MET Police are seeking to extend a Tory MP’s bail period while he remains under investigation for rape and other sexual offences…that’s bail for the FIFTH time…a YEAR after he was first arrested……are they, the MET, looking at ways to try and LET him off the hook as in ways to discredit/disprove allegations made by his accuser(s) with this being yet another example of the TORY party, via SOME of their MP’s being involved in scandals.. as a PARTY that should be seen as THE ones as REALLY being in a MESS ???.

    As in this particular incident not being a unique INCIDENT for Tories as they do have FORM via these TYPES of allegations and in one instance a TORY MP was prosecuted and JAILED for it….as in Charlie Elphicke,

    I mean it IS the MET police we are talking about here….they DO have form….as far as the TORY party are concerned…with Sajid Javid’s brother still being one who holds a position in the MET as the Deputy Assistant Commissioner…not forgetting former MET commissioner DAME Clarissa Dick and her INACTION as in UNWILLINGNESS to investigate and punish TORY related incidents…..

    Plus , Javid’s brother, being THE SAME one who oversaw #PartyGate complaints…..

    As in same person, when in charge of THAT investigation, decided not to issue Boris Johnson with any more #PartyGate fines even though there was evidence of OTHER parties at No. 10 ….INSIDE his, Johnson’s, flat IN 10 Downing Street…. like say the one that had #DancingQueenBlaringOut……during Covid lockdown….

    Plus been reported that WE the tax payers are paying Johnson’s LEGAL bills with an estimated amount of up to £245,000 to cover the cost of Boris Johnson’s #PartyGate inquiry lawyers…..when he Johnson has also been reported to have bought a new house and paid £3.8million in cash for it….a grand new manor house …….we foot the bill for his scandals while he lives the good life…..with no remorse or regrets…..typical TORY….

    Now that IS a political party that SHOULD be considered as ones who are REALLY ARE in a MESS in ONES of THEIR OWN making….constantly.

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