The SNP constitution secretary Angus Robertson has suggested that a vote for Scottish independence should also count as a vote for Scotland to rejoin the European Union and that a second vote on EU membership would therefore not be required. He said that in a future vote the independence case would be “for Scottish independence within the European Union as a member state.”
This is, to put it bluntly, a terrible idea. For starters it’s a bad idea because the European Union has until now preferred to accept new members after the people of that country have clearly and unequivocally voted in favour of EU membership in a referendum which is specifically and unambiguously about joining the EU. That said, there is no absolute requirement for a referendum. Neither Bulgaria or Cyprus held an EU membership referendum, they applied to join the EU after general elections won by parties campaigning for EU membership. However it is certainly considered to be good democratic practice for countries to hold a referendum on EU membership.
By linking EU membership to an entirely separate issue, that of Scottish independence, the will of the people of Scotland to be a part of the European Union would remain open to question. The EU has already had its fingers burned with Brexit, it’s going to look with great suspicion on a former part of a state which left the EU seeking to rejoin when there remains any room for argument about whether its people clearly and without the slightest doubt wish to be a part of the European project. Bulgaria and Cyprus were both already independent countries. No country has ever sought independence on the basis of linking it to EU membership.
Scotland, as we learned during the first independence referendum campaign, found itself subject to a massive amount of scaremongering from opponents of independence who were eager to tell us that Scotland would not be allowed to join the EU. We were told that Spain or Belgium would veto Scottish membership, that Scotland was too poor, and despite the fact that none of these scare stories were true they gained massive traction in a British media which is overwhelmingly opposed to Scottish independence, their rebuttals struggled to get an airing.
We will see the exact same thing the second time around so it is therefore a huge tactical error to insist that Scotland could join the EU through an entirely novel and unprecedented process. It presents an enormous open goal for opponents of independence on a par with the sterling currency union the first time round, and the British nationalists and their allies will be queueing up to rubbish it. Indeed they have already started. Scotland in Union’s Pamela Nash has been quick to give some dismissive quotes to the Herald.
Indeed the proposal smacks of British exceptionalism, the very thing that Scottish independence seeks to escape from. Proposing that Scotland could have a unique and special route to EU membership is unlikely to endear the cause of Scottish independence to other European countries, the very countries whose support Scotland is going to need in order to put pressure on Westminster to negotiate independence following a victory for independence at the ballot box.
Personally I am keen for an independent Scotland to be a part of the EU, like millions of others in Scotland my European citizenship was stripped away without our consent or consultation by right wing English nationalists and I want it back. Most polls show that a clear majority of voters in Scotland support EU membership and believe that Brexit was a mistake. Incidentally, Scottish independence will categorically not strip British citizenship from those Scots who currently possess it and who wish to retain it. It is a false equivalence to equate Scottish independence with Brexit for this and for many other reasons.
However there are other things that I’d also like to see in an independent Scotland, for example I’d like an independent Scotland to divest itself of the anachronistic and anti-democratic clown show that is the Windsor dynasty and become a republic. But like membership of the EU, this is a question to be debated and decided by the people of Scotland once the fact of Scottish independence and an independent Scottish state has been established. Otherwise we run the risk of alienating voters who are open to the idea of Scottish independence but who quite like the idea of a Scottish monarch – after all Scotland was a monarchy throughout its centuries long existence as an independent state – or those who would prefer an independent Scotland to remain outwith the European Union but perhaps with a closer trading relationship than that offered by the Brextremist zealots of the Conservative party of Keir Starmer’s Labour.
Such voters could well be put off from voting in favour of independence if they thought that their vote for independence was also going to be tied to something that they opposed. Although recent polls point to a pro-independence majority they do not suggest that there is a large enough margin of support for independence that we can afford to do without any pro-independence constituency, no matter how small it may be. Frankly it is sheer idiocy not to try and maximise the pro-independence vote, Angus Robertson’s proposal makes a vote for independence simultaneously a vote for something else entirely. This not only risks paring away potential independence supporters, it also prevents Scotland from having a clear and unambiguous debate about joining the European Union, something which is vital in the interests of democracy.
It is absolutely not a terrible idea for the Scottish Government to state that one of the primary purposes of independence is to reopen the possibility of EU membership for Scotland, that door into a real union is firmly closed as long as Scotland remains a part of this British lie-union. But the decision that the people of Scotland are going to make cannot be preempted. The first General Election following Scottish independence can be fought on the basis of giving the Scottish government a mandate to open accession negotiations with Brussels, and in that vote I will strongly advocate EU membership because in my view it is unquestionably the right thing for Scotland. However there is no need to jump the gun and in the process potentially damage our chances of securing independence, without which we will never be able to rejoin the EU.
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I guess they’ve run the numbers, and rapid EU membership is probably the biggest driver of those who were taken in by the *better together lies*, and anyway, we already had a Brexit vote and Scotland was overwhelmingly in support of remaining
My only caveat would be the hopefully favourable deal offered by the EU, which if not suitable might lead Scotland to choose another path, still part of the club of course but perhaps not as direct as before
So maybe the overly keenness on instant membership, if that’s what Angus meant? could be tempered by a little reticence, in case of the resulting offer not being what we hope for
A well presented demolition of AR’s ludicrous proposition.
Let’s hope that it receives similarly well focused pelters at the SNP’s March constitutional conference.
Well said – I agree that binding an independence vote to a vote to be in the EU is a great mistake which will alienate an unknown number of voters. We are in no position to alienate ANY voters.
This is from the latest Survation (10 January 2023 – 12 January 2023), a clear outlier in favour of No with overly high Tory / Leave voter numbers:
If Scotland became an independent country, do you think it should seek full accession to the EU, participation in the European Single Market through EFTA, or stay outside the EU?
45% Full accession to the EU
21% Participation in the European Single Market through EFTA
19% Stay outside the EU
15% Don’t know
53% Full accession to the EU
25% Participation in the European Single Market through EFTA
22% Stay outside the EU
Yet still a more than overwhelming majority want full EU, even if offered a 3-way choice.
All the historic data, and of course the 2016 result, says Scots want to be in the EU, or failing that the single market. A binary EU in/out referendum vote would undoubtedly yield a yes, so I don’t see why anyone who supports EU membership should be bothered about holding one.
At the same time, it’s not possible for Scots to be forced into the EU against their will. If the Scottish government say they’ll seek EU membership if Scots vote Yes and Scots vote Yes, well that does mean voters have endorsed the EU membership plan, tying in with 2016. If the electorate want to reverse that, they could simply do so in the next Scottish election / first one post Yes vote. We have PR.
Anyway, Angus Robertson only speaks for himself does he not? It’s not as if he decides such things.
Exactly, Angus could be todays kite flyer to test the wind direction, folk don’t need to get too excited about this one way or the other
Robertson has an opinion and since I want independence I will vote for his option or if offered for being linked with efta, or not linked with efta.
The GE Vote should say Independence.🏴
Hasn’t the SNP not to meet yet in conference? So it is party politicking and trying to influence the debate. He can of course just be ignored.
Robertson has given a reason to The ones who say “ I’m never voting for independence if we go back to the eu or some other trade deal with anyone, or to buy German cars, or French baguettes, or use the euro or not if the FM leads us or… not ad-nauseum “ A secret, they never were going to vote for Independence.
Truth is, they are looking for excuses to side with the tories and the other Brit nationalists.
Ireland must chuckle at us.
Would it be fair to say that leaving the question as a blank page would be equally open to attack. In a campaign people will want answers, is wait and see the answer undecideds want to see or a standpoint that unionists won’t attack?.
Also data says that over 90% of new yes voters did so as a means to end. The end being rejoining the EU.
Whatever we might wish for the EU in out is going to be part of the discussion, we need answers, I feel not just wait until later.
Indeed, the media and the opposition will be honing up their nonsense to argue in both directions as we speak
If it’s in the manifesto we’re being *railroaded* into the EU by dictator Sturgeon
If it’s not in the manifesto we’ve been *tricked* out of what we voted for by the evil Sturgeon
I hope I’m still alive in 20 years when the FMs book comes out detailing every nasty aspect of the characters who opposed her and fooled Scotlands voters into this current position
Dear Wee Ginger Dug
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Remarkably good timing.
I am a proud European as well as a supporter of Scottish (and Welsh) independence within the EU, but it would not be appropriate for me to tell Scots what to do when any post-independence referendum on membership of that ‘real union’ as we call it comes about.
I would however draw your attention to what we in Europe for Scotland are doing tonight:
Tonight, candle light vigils are held across Scotland, echoing the gatherings that took place on Brexit Day three years ago. Then, the atmosphere was funereal and mainly a signal to Europeans to please not forget Scotland. Tonight, Scots gather to show Europe that their wish to rejoin our European family remains as strong as ever. And by gathering all over the country (in wind and rain) Scots are also sending a clear signal to Westminster, showing the UK government that as much as they may want to ignore Scots, Scots won’t give up until their democratic choices are respected.
Europe for Scotland representatives will speak at several of the gatherings in Scotland tonight to convey our European solidarity. If you care about the future of Scotland, or about democracy, you can do something, too.
You may also like to watch the video from two years ago, made by EfS in collaboration with the author, Val McDermid:
1. Independence 1st
2. Get access to EFTA initially
Then have a refefendum on EU membership only after 1 &2 completed.
There may be some voters that may prefer EFTA over full membership.
Andit gets back single market and free movement.
Comes with no you need to use euro baggage.
As far as I remember im sure nicola sturgeon said EFTA membership 1st?
“1. Independence 1st
2. Get access to EFTA initially”
Agreed. And Angus Robertson can away an’ shite. I spoiled my ballot rather than voting for him last time out.
This from Angus Robertson is far worse than “a terrible idea” as you put it.
In my opinion, it is a totally ridiculous idea and stupid beyond belief.
It’s ridiculous because Scotland voting to become an Independent country has absolutely nothing at all to do with whether it should choose to join the EU as an Independent country at some point after Independence.
The two must not be allowed to become conflated, you don’t need to join the EU to become an Independent country but you do need to be Independent BEFORE you can even apply to join the EU. We win independence first and only then can the first elected Scottish Government of an Independent Scotland look to rejoin the EU if they were elected on a mandate that included EU membership.
I’ve no idea where this madcap idea must have come from but support for Independence and support for EU membership are two entirely separate things and must be treated as such. No muddying the waters, when we vote it should be absolutely clear that you are voting for Independence and nothing else.
Win our Independence first, and only then can politicians such as Angus Robertson begin arguing their case for rejoining the EU or any other subject for that matter.
This “madcap idea” may just come from a desire on the part of Mr Devo to maintain the status quo – or am I reading too much into it ?
Of course I might be lute warm on Independence but for whatever reason passsionately wish be part of the eu community.
I might just say yes to independence as a result.
Others will disagree which is fair enough. I will vote any way that I think gets me independence.🏴
a yes vote is a mandate to open negotiations with the EU, the terms of which are put before the sovereign people. Apart from anything else the knowledge that the people will have the final say is likely to improve the government’s negotiating position. And finally, we always need to take the people with us at each stage.
“This is, to put it bluntly, a terrible idea.”
That’s what I thought, and it puts Angus Robertson far away on the wrong side of absolutely bonkers.
To put it another way:
“Er hat eine Schraube lockern”
Thanks MOD. Much appreciated 🙂
If Yes had won the referendum in 2014 I believe that it was expected there would need to be a period of negotiation with Westminster of around 18 months before Scotland would officially declare Independence Day.
That means after a vote for Independence i every party will have to put together totally new manifestos for election at the first vote for a government of an Independent country.
I believe it is then and only then, once we are actually Independent that each party can put forward its ideas for governing an Independent Scotland. This would be a manifesto unlike any produced as part of the UK and would be expected to cover all the issues relating to how we should move forward.
So, not just the EU but currency, NATO, monarchy ect. That is when the people of Scotland will get to choose what path they want their own elected Independent government to follow.
Independence first, everything else must follow, you can’t put the cart before the horse.
Yes, totally agree.
A vote for Independence is NOT a vote for SNP policy.
A vote for Independence is not a vote for anything other than for Scotland to become an Independent country. We need to be clear about that, the direction we choose once Independent is for us to decide only once we have that choice available to us and not before.
Aye, because you can then vote for a different party in the first election after indy, so I’ve no idea what the fuss is all about.
If in the first post-indy election, a majority of votes go to parties seeking Scotland to re-join the EU who have this in manifestos, then the government has a mandate for that. If not, it won’t.
Angus is silly saying a vote for indy does mean the EU, the reality is that’s only the case if pro-EU parties win elections to carry that through.
I note an election win for parties with ‘negotiate to join the EU’ in manifestos is a perfectly democratic way to get a mandate for this, just as it to e.g. ‘negotiate independence’.
I think you’ll find that if Alba, Greens and SNP fight the GE on nothing more than a question on independence the opposition will have a field with the ‘ unanswered questions ‘.
The manifesto shouldn’t have any difficulty giving reasons, or rather reiterating the many reasons for Scotland becoming independent both the positive for and the negatives to staying. Referendums to be held asap, e.g. Membership of the EU/ EFTA, draft constitution, Trident.
Setting up the Convention of Estates.
It also has to explain clearly the currency issue e.g running two currencies side by side. Most importantly it has to provide a route map out of the union and what action it will take if the English government behaves as it did with the EU. Most important, timescale even if negotiations are not completed.
Now none of that is a party manifesto so a date for a GE needs to be put in the diary.
It would also be desirable for all of the parties to have agreed this and run with it.
Absolutely we should be giving the many reasons and explaining the benefits and downsides of Independence. That doesn’t make these reasons or arguements policy, it need do no more than express one party’s preferred policy and how they might want to do things.
I disagree that on day one we must have in place a detailed, fully worked out answer to every single question that will be thrown at us, that is an impossibility and all of these things in themselves will take years to finally settle upon.
I think we overcomplicate things by trying to be too precise and exact because that is simply not possible and it just opens your “wishlist” up to all kinds of attacks that will attempt to undermine whatever policy you say you will settle on or prefer.
Keep it simple, discuss the options, and say what your preferences would be. by all means, I’d though leave everything for the Scottish people to make their choice as to which of the many many policies they favour to be decided in a General Election for an Independent Scottish Government to take forward once we have left the UK.
I didn’t say we needed a detailed worked out plan, if you don’t have a plan you’ll be ridiculed and if you have a detailed plan it will nitpicked, but you do need a route map. You need to tell people what you will do, how you will do it and when you will you do it.
Vote Leave didn’t have a plan, they had a slogan on the side of a bus.
I didn’t hear any ridicule being aimed in their direction. What we supporters of Independence need to understand is that any plan put forward by our side will be ridiculed regardless of its sincerity and accuracy.
You need to tell people that only Independence will give them the opportunity to choose a Government that will do its best to make their lives better rather than one that will continue to ignore them as if they didn’t exist.
You need to tell people that we don’t need to put up with having a Government chosen for us by people who do not share the same values as they do but instead they can get to choose their own Government every time and if you don’t like them you can change them.
A really good plan would be to provide a vision of how an Independent Scotland might flourish and get the Scottish people to buy into that. That’s a plan.
I can only hope that the SNP have a better idea of what a route map is than you Alex.
The SNP plan for currency pre the 2014 referendum was to keep using the £. What has happened to that plan?
Then in 2016, the SNP established a commission that took until 2018 to produce a 354 page report saying they would need to cap public spending increases at 1% below GDP for 10 years and after meeting 6 economic tests they might be able to establish an Independent currency. What has happened to that plan?
They are currently formulating a new currency plan that will shortly be announced. I imagine it will say that Scotland will have it’s own currency as soon as we can, that’s our goal, we don’t know how long that will take but we work hard to make it as soon as possible.
That’s not really a plan, just like the previous two versions for currency weren’t really plans guaranteed to be seen through to completion. They were created for media and public consumption. I maintain a vision is far better than a plan because a plan is useless unless it is detailed and complete.
Anything other than that is no more than wishful thinking and no better than a slogan on the side of a bus.
More importantly, I think, a plan has to be achievable else it will be ridiculed and broken. See the results of currency plans 1 and 2.
A vision can mean exactly the same thing as a plan and even look the same, but with a vision, you are only required to fill in the details as you move forward.
‘Every party’? Which parties would that be? The SNP, the Scottish Greens certainly and possibly Alba if it still exists but there cannot be any role for ‘Scottish’ Tories, Labour & LibDems which are minor branches of the English headquartered parties. Surely once Scotland votes for Independence any role for those branch parties ends. They cannot sit on one side of the table while their ‘bosses’ sit on the other.
Rather they should disband and use the transition period while negotions are taking place and the first post- Independent Scotlahd GE to reform new parties which can then, having demonstrated a clean break from the English parties and fresh start, put their manifestos to the people of Scotland.
If they do not do this then their position is hopelessly compromised because of their continued identification with English parties however tenuous they make it out to be.
While there cannot be a role for these parties in the Independence negotiations there is a role for Civic Scotland to take part.
I’m talking after Independence, so I do mean “every party”. Whether that’s new parties formed after splits or alliances between others it doesn’t matter. They will be the first parties to actually stand for election IN an Independent Scotland.
That’s why I see all their manifestos as having to be totally rewritten for an independent Scotland, Labout or Tory if they still exist must have their totally new policies once they are real Scottish parties and no longer the branch offices of Westminster based parties.
Once the bedding in period is over there has to be a General Election in Scotland at an appropriate time but soon as possible after Independence Day is how I see it.
That’s when we see what everyone has to offer and vote accordingly until then, let’s finish the soup before we start on the main course.
Given Labour and the Lib Dems now both back brexit, as do the Tories who were against it, I think we can safely predict how the weather vanes will swing if Scots vote Yes.
Yes independence first and foremost
EU cost £4Billion. Nearest biggest market. 450million people. Scotland traded £11Billion with the EU. Received renewable grants, loans and investment. Worth £Billions. EU supports workers rights and essential food was cheaper. Now goods and imports cost twice as much. EU collective favourable terms for Contracts with the rest of the world. The Tories Brexit lies and being exposed. Even by former Tory donors of investment funds.
Scotland did not vote for Brexit but is paying the price for it. Healthcare and essential workers have left. It is more difficult to travel. The poor pandemic management and Brexit the Tories perfect storm. The £Billions wasted. The Tories starving people. The Healthcare disarray because of lack of funding, The Tories will not pay better remuneration to essential workers. Wasting monies of grotesque projects of little value. To misappropriate public monies for the Tories and their associates. The Tories have destroyed the economy. Labour are no better, especially in Scotland. .
The Scottish Gov have to try to mitigate the cuts and all the loses caused by Tory blatant mismanagement and corruption,
After a YES Independence vote. The Tory, Labour and LibDem Parties would cease to exist because they are funded from London. That is why they do not support Independence they get funded from London Westminster Headquarters, They are on the take from bankers and Trade unions. There would need to be a break with central Office to concentrate on Scotland.
Scotland has already voted 64% for EU membership, increased? EU citizens did not get a vote. It would have been even higher. No taxation without representation,
The 2014 Independence lies and vows. EU citizens voted NO to stay in the EU. If they had voted YES. YES would have won,
Support for Independence and Independence rising. It just needs people to vote for it at every election, To get rid of the opposition,
A good analysis here from Believe in Scotland of the damage done to the British and Scottish economy by BREXIT. There is no doubt that BREXIT was a stupid decision driven by ideology (and greed) rather than a desire to benefit the electorate they represent.
This article is a long read and full of data.
What it illustrates is the folly of staying under the rulership of a corrupt and domineering government in Westminster. We may well want to build bridges with trading partners. But first we have to have the power to make our own alliances.
Angus Robertson is elected. Pamela Nash is not. Labour SIU. Not nominated as Labour candidate 2021. Lost to Kenneth Stevenson.
I think it needs both, and it clearly needs the ScotGov to separate itself from the SNP.
So the ScotGov sets the route map:
1). Referendum actual or de facto planning etc – they have the full mandate for that.
2). YES vote
3). Continue to be ScotGov for devolved matters
4). Reorganise / split to also be caretaker ScotGov setting up ministries for the previously reserved functions, perhaps a central bank, until the first independent general election.
5). Engage with all Scottish parties to negotiate with WM, though as caretaker they can initialise the format
6). Try to agree about central bank, initial currency
The SNP will already have much of their first Indy manifesto – which can of course, be ready in advance. It can include their polices in EU /EFTA / whatever.
It’s up to the other parties if they want to ignore the chance of the YES vote, and let the SNP keep an advantage by being ready with their manifesto.
However, if the SNP+ScotGov make the split clear, then it should incentivise the Unionist parties to at least have a secret bare bones indy manifesto ready – one which doesn’t say the “Union is Precious” and Indy Refs are evil. Nobody will be able to complain if they’re too stupid to do that, and the voting public will probably laugh our cotton socks off at them. They had their chance and they blew it.
I completely agree with this. I too would prefer Scotland to be a republic and back in the EU but these are issues to be decided by the people of Scotland after independence not before. Linking these issues in people’s minds now is a terrible own goal.
IMHO Angus has muddied the waters unnecessarily, the desire for independence should be established first and foremost, all else stems from that.
If Estonia can develop one of the most advanced and successful states in europe in short order from a blank sheet of paper, Scotland most certainly has the talent and resources to do it faster, so we do not need every i dotted and t crossed to succeed, all we need is the will.
If we need to list anything it should be what we DON’T want, and that will be a long list of the status-quo.
Few divorcees years later will say it all worked out as planned, but the vast majority will never have been happier.
We are about to divorce from Westminster, forget the detail of who gets the fridge etc., let’s start with a clean sheet of paper.
Angus may feel that it is in his interests to muddy the waters. He’s not an idiot, this was a deliberate statement. Go figure
I don’t often disagree with you here but we have already had a vote in 2016 and there was a clear margin to remain in the EU. One of the strongest arguments for independence is being taken out of the EU against our will and that has attracted many waverers to the independence movement.
It would be shooting ourselves in the foot to not campaign on this, the clearest and most obvious example of the democratic deficit in the UK.
Actually , we campaign on the fact that we were subjected to ”something” against our will .
We voted for the EU but it could have been membership of NATO or the Monarchy or driving on the right side of the road or compulsory Morris Dancing …the point is we are NOT the sole arbiters of what happens in our country .
We are subject to the whims of a foreign power and a population who generally couldn’t give a f*ck for us – THAT is the overwhelming and most potent argument for voting for Independence . Everything else is secondary !
We had a vote in 2014 which we want to replicate in some form to again ascertain the will of the people for Independence obviously hoping it will be a majority this time , yet you you don’t wish the People of Scotland to have their democratic say in the matter of the EU now that I suggest is not democratic .
Indeed I suggest it will be pure folly to tie Independence to anything other than Independence means the People who live here will be the People to decide Scotland’s future.
There are many visions for how an Independent Scotland can be but remember none of these can ever come to fruition without Independence so we will deal with them in due course after we are Independent with a strong constitution and all its safeguards coupled with a good PR Electoral system.
One of the many safeguards in the Constitution must be in my opinion “The structure and composition of the Executive; restrictions on external or commercial interests; the transparency and registration of lobbyists; the creation of non-government organisations; requirement of a referendum for entering the major obligations, treaties or transfer of governmental powers granted under this Constitution.
The No vote won in 2014 and 2016 has been followed by a series of wins for the SNP whose policy is Scotland in Europe. If people wish to have a vote on EU membership after independence then they should vote for a party which has that as a policy to get a referendum.
That would be democratic.
This is not about any Partisan Political Party’s or any others wishes or vision now as I pointed out that is for the future if we achieve Independence.
After Independence We the people will make these decisions based on what is best for all of Scotland at that time. We will decide which of the Scottish Party’s and hopefully Independent’s Policies we accept or reject at the ballot box under a good PR electoral voting system.
Now that is how democracy works in an Independent Nation with Honest, Transparent and Fair governance for all.
Perhaps this SNP supported video will clarify matters for you.
I don’t need anything clarified thank you
The Scottish Gov predominately is the SNP by a massive majority. FPTP there would be no unionists, D’Hondt imposes an artificial quota. Let’s the 3rd losers in.
That is why there is a need for other Independence supporting Parties. People need to get out and vote for Independence supporting Parties every election. A higher turnout.
If you want to know why Brexit is a disaster…then…just remember how every Tory politician constantly highlighted the supposed success of their government’s actions during Covid….via the Vaccine roll out and also furlough…..(though they failed to highlight or rather promote the same supposed ‘success’ in their Test & Trace system in England mainly because it was a failed system and one that cost approximately over 36 billion)….then compare and contrast this with the LACK of them also, individually and as a party, promoting nay highlighting the many TANGIBLE Brexit benefits for their UK and then you will realise in them NOT doing so , as in them failing to LIST all of the supposed many Brexit benefits that people can relate to, that it then as a Tory policy was and is a flop for their UK.
The UK government and other chancers supportive of Brexit have gone to great lengths to try and present that issues with the border between NI (part of UK) and the Republic of Ireland (EU member) post Brexit as no big deal and tis something that is , as a position , solvable, workable and of little impact post Brexit once a solution is agreed upon (they are of course presenting the EU as the stumbling block to this being resolved)…..while simultanously they are presenting via THEIR NON impartial predictions that an independent Scotland (if in the EU) would be a disaster incurring many problems and one that was, as a situation , totally unworkable and would have a huge impact for Scotland as in us sharing a BORDER ,as a Member of the EU, with England who were no longer a member of the EU and thus TRADE between us both would suffer….but it would only be Scotland that would suffer apparently according to THEM…..so how can these two opposing positions be credible via borders ? …….
I went to the Edinburgh Torch rally last night….I went because I support Scotland as a potential EU member and also because my husband and I went to hear our friend Kevin Gore who was performing at the rally (a great independence supporter and also a great song writer)….
Lo and behold as the speakers began …..there was a LONE yoon who started to shout out while the speakers were talking….
First he said ” what about the Scottish government”…..?????
Then when a speaker on stage mentioned the devolved government he shouted out “it’s not a government it’s a devolved administration”….I turned round and shouted back at him ” Shut up”….to which he responded ” I have a right to freedom of speech”….with NO sense of irony that in him shouting out while others were speaking ,at a rally that he obviously OPPOSED , he was in effect trying to suppress THEIR freedom of speech…..anyhoo eventually he was surrounded by the polis who , it was obvious, were telling him to go, which he was reluctant to do…..he was then led away by two of them who , it was still obvious, were ushering him away from the rally……no doubt today he will be contacting some bogus platform to say he was ‘Cance**ed and treated badly in what is clearly an SNP Police state….while neglecting to highlight HIS BAD behaviour (ignorance) …….
My husband said to me when I shouted at this R*dge (rhymes with badge) that he thought I was going to do ‘an old Mother Riley’ …as in roll up my sleeves and take a position of raising my fists while jumping back and forth in an exaggerated fashion (you have to know old Mother Riley to know what I mean by this)……I said to him less of the old and who the H is Mother Riley…does she support Independence…..but yes I was angry because I am pig sick of idiots trying to infiltrate our marches etc with their pig ignorant behaviour…..
No democracy, freedom of speech etc allowed via those who prefer the status quo of corruption, cronyism and bad governance by their UK…..instead they , either via SMALL numbers or as a LONE wolf, attend OUR marches and rallies to TRY and shout down our position (and FAIL to) while promoting their MINORITY (bogus) position….which falls on deaf ears with us and on the positive side it results in increasing our determination and exposes the FACT that they, as opposers of independence, are obviously the ones who have NO pride in their supposed ,but clearly NOT, country as in Scotland…..for reasons…of which there are many…..
Have a nice day everyone
That brought a smile to my face “Mother” LOL
Reblogged this on Ramblings of a now 60+ Female.
Has anyone seen Stephen Noon and Gordon Brown in the room at the same time?
Quite frankly if the SNP insists we’ll all have to wear funny hats and hop on one leg with our fingers in the air in an independent Scotland I’ll still vote YES to that proposition then remove my stupid hat later and hop off when nobody cares about it anymore
I’m a member so I’ll vote against the hopping, I’m too old to keep that up indefinitely, I might wear the funny hat though
This is the how much bend should there be in a banana argument
To my mind, Paul is right, and I say that as a longstanding supporter of our own place at the top table of the EU, despite its imperfections. (After all, what is perfect?) But we mustn’t conflate independence for all, whatever people’s political preferences, with other goals, however apparently reasonable and self-evident they may be. It’s only after independence that we will be able to “clear the decks” of all the accumulated detritus of the Union and begin to see our own vital interests more clearly.
That’s not to say that in the meantime we should stay schtum over the UKGov’s historically disastrous decisions on Brexit, and its insistence on forcing it wholesale upon us. With malice aforethought. It’s evident to anyone with eyes to see and two brain cells to rub together that devolution is utterly incapable of protecting us and our vital interests against a manifest harm like Brexit or indeed any other depredation that some London government – and one we never elected in the first place – chooses to visit upon us in the future. Enough of an always-inadequate Mitigation Hell and whiny Unionists wanting Nicola to fix it. The only safe way forward for us is clear.
I see others now starting to make a comparison of the magnitude of the error of Brexit with the likes of Suez. But actually it’s worse than that. Far worse. The yardstick of purblind maladroitness we should be using is that of the inept mishandling of the American Colonies. We’re right up there with that level of idiocy. And we’re the ones paying for it. Those other colonials showed the way, and it’s high time we followed.