Explaining the obvious to self-serving British nationalists

In the days since the historic Supreme Court ruling that Scotland has no right to an independence referendum through its own internal democratic processes, and the incomprehensible decision of the court that Scotland has no right to self-determination as it is neither oppessed, a colony, nor denied a meaningful say in its own affairs, immediately before ruling that Scotland has no meaningful say in deciding whether or not it can have an independence referendum or not, Anglo-British nationalist politicians have been falling over themselves to de-legitimise the mandate for another referendum given to Holyrood by the voters of Scotland in May 2021.

This is because they know that they stand exposed as democracy deniers, undemocratically refusing to allow the people of Scotland the referendum that they so clearly voted to have, resorting to laws that they themselves have created in order to obtain a ruling that it would be unlawful for Holyrood to do what the people of Scotland elected it to do.

There is one thing that we must get clear right away, and this needs to become a change in language that is widespread and standard across the independence movement, following this ruling we can no longer permit opponents of independence the indulgence of the political fiction that they oppose Scottish independence because they are opposed to ‘nationalism’. This ruling has made it abundantly clear that there is no longer a union in the sense that it has been understood for generations. Indeed the court went out of its way to rule that Scotland has no right to self-determination, and is utterly dependent on the voting choices of England in order to be ‘allowed’ to revisit the question of its relationship with the other nations of the British state.

The political opponents of independence are therefore not advocating Scottish participation in a voluntary partnership of equal nations – like the EU – they are advocating the subordination of Scotland to political decisions made in England and to denying Scotland the right to gainsay or challenge these decisions. England, the largest nation in this so-called union is not subject to the same constraints. Scotland and Wales can be bound by the electoral choices of voters in England, but the converse does not hold true. The parties opposing independence are thus proponents of Scotland having an inferior status within a state which is effectively the political expression of Greater England and which denies Scotland the right to self-determination. As such they are not unionists, they are not anti-nationalist, they are the parties of Anglo-British nationalism and must be characterised as such.

Even the most obdurate Anglo-British nationalist politician accepts that the question of independence dominates the political landscape in Scotland, however they are determined to ensure that the question is never addressed by the electorate, in no small measure because they fear the response that the people might give. They like to blame it on the SNP and ‘grievance mongering about Westminster’ deliberately ignoring the fact that ‘grievance mongering’ only achieves the persistent political traction that it has done in Scotland when people feel genuinely aggrieved. But the cause of this must never be examined, far less addressed or remedied.

In order to maintain a fig leaf of democratic legitimacy, the Anglo-British nationalists are on an all-out campaign to re-write history and to deny that the current Scottish Parliament does indeed possess a mandate for another referendum. That is appalling enough, but it is even more appalling that most of the Scottish media allows them to get away with it.

In the Commons on the day of the Supreme Court ruling, the patrician governor general Alister Jack asserted that the Scottish Parliament does not have a mandate for another referendum because only 30% of the electorate voted SNP in May 2021. He further went on to dismiss the Scottish Green MSPs entirely on the spurious basis that the Scottish Greens don’t stand in the constituency vote and therefore in the tortured reasoning that passes for Jack’s logic the votes of Green MSPs don’t really count. However if we are going to discount the votes of list MSPs – then the SNP would have a crushing majority at Holyrood. But Alister Jack seems to believe it’s up to him to pick and choose which MSPs count towards a mandate.

By Jack’s own measure only 29% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives in the December 2019 General Election, but this would not lead him to admit that the Conservatives do not have a mandate in the Commons, or that he should not be in a job.

It is incredible that this needs to be spelled out, but it must be because Jack, Douglas Ross, and their fellow Anglo-British nationalists insist on conflating elections and referendums. May 2021 was not a referendum on whether Scotland should have another independence referendum, it was an election to the Scottish Parliament, a Parliament which uses a broadly proportional voting system designed to avoid one party winning an outright majority. It is a system deliberately designed to bring about multi-party governance, this makes it doubly desperate for Jack to attempt to discount Green MSPs.

So once more for the democracy impaired – election winners are not determined primarily by percentage of vote share, particularly in the first past the post system beloved of Westminster, they are determined by seats won. It’s the party or parties with most seats who win power and the mandate to implement its manifesto. Once that majority is won, the government holds its mandate until the next election. It does not lose it mid-term because of opinion polls. That’s how elections in the UK work, it is how they have always worked in the modern era. Labour and the Tories’ appeal to opinion polling does not negate the mandate won at the election of May 2021. If it did, Brexit would not be happening.

No British Government has won a majority of votes cast since 1935 when Stanley Baldwin leading the National Government (a coalition of Conservatives Liberals and some Labour MPs) won 51.8% of the votes cast, but even this fell short of a majority of the electorate.

in 1931 the National Government won 67.2% of votes cast, which on a 76.4% turn out works out at 51.3% of the electorate. By Jack’s ludicrous logic – if we are calling it logic – this was the only occasion since the introduction of the democratic franchise that a British government has won a mandate to implement its manifesto. All other governments, including the ones in which Jack has been a minister, have been illegitimate.

Jack is not entirely stupid. He and Ross and Sarwar know how elections work. They are merely dishonestly trying to create public doubt about the Scottish Government in the hopes of disguising their contempt of democracy, and doing so in the knowledge that the Scottish media will allow them to get away with it. The more that they do so, the more they confirm the view that the Scottish independence campaign is now the Scottish democracy campaign.

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62 comments on “Explaining the obvious to self-serving British nationalists

  1. Jack is not entirely stupid. He and Ross and Sarwar know how elections work. They are merely dishonestly trying to create public doubt about the Scottish Government in the hopes of disguising their contempt of democracy, and doing so in the knowledge that the Scottish media will allow them to get away with it. The more that they do so, the more they confirm the view that the Scottish independence campaign is now the Scottish democracy campaign.

    Nail on head.

    The problem the face is that their current approach is reliant on Scots having not been super enthusiastic about an immediate referendum (lukewarm, at least pre-Truss etc), and Scots are not sure their countryfolk want indy.

    But preferring no iref, or that it should be later rather than sooner, is a world away from denying democracy. Scots are in no doubt about who should be making the decision here, e.g.:

    August 2022, pre-Truss mini-budget etc:

    Should the Scottish Government or the UK Government make the decision about whether there is a referendumon Scottish independence?
    52% The Scottish Government
    37% The UK government
    11% DK

    Ex DK:
    58% The Scottish Government
    42% The UK government

    https://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-the-scottish-government-or-the-uk-government-make-the-decision-about-whether-there-is-a-referendumon-scottish-independence/?removed

    Which is what will cause the backlash:

    Post UKSC:

    Would you vote SNP at the next General Election if your vote would be used as a mandate to negotiate independence with the UK Government?
    51% Yes
    33% No
    16% DK/PNTS

    Ex DK:
    61% Yes
    39% No

    https://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/would-you-vote-snp-at-the-next-general-election-if-your-vote-would-be-used-as-a-mandate-to-negotiate-independence-with-the-uk-government/?removed

    The Findoutnow poll 6/10 for an election plebiscite is not some random, questionable number, it is those that believe in Scottish democracy and that Holyrood should make this decision alone reacting to the UKSC case.

    Not wanting an iref at X time is totally different from an aggressive neighboring country completely taking that choice away from you / your countryfolk by overturning recent elections.

    The UKSC decision is a direct assault on Scottish unionists, not indy supporters, as Paul has made very clear.

  2. Dr Jim says:

    In 1935 Winston Churchill raged at the parties in Westminster for allowing any kind of devolved style governance to India as this would surely lead to the breaking of *British* power and control of India

    “India belongs to the British and Britain has every right to it as much as the Mahomedans or anybody else” said Churchill

    The Westminster parliament gave India a sham devolved parliament that the British could and did overrule constantly until India became independent

    And Churchill still raged

    • Ah, the British Raj.
      At one point about 40,000 white administrators and 80,000 ‘British’ troops held the Sub Continent fast with the collaboration of the local landowners and Rajahs, who got to hold on to their land as long as they bowed to the authority of Empress Victoria and paid their due tithes and taxes. The British East India Company and its mercenary army preceded the Royal takeover.
      Even during the great famine which killed 8 million Indians, grain was still being shipped to England, and laissez faire capitalism meant that the poor in India starved and died because they could not afford to buy food grown in their own country.
      There is of course a Scottish Raj. The Lords and wealthy landowners own 4/5ths of our land, and pay tribute to London.
      Mid 19th Century Imperialism. The Potato Famine’s over why don’t you go home, the knuckledraggers chant from the slopes of Ibrox to this day.
      We are occupied by a small group of insurgents/settlers, who control most of our organisations and wealth, for England.
      The Anglo scot Lords are England’s Rajahs, holding on to illegally taken land and wealth, with lawyers drafting laws to perpetuate this con.

      I think of the The Matthew effect where, by preferential attachment, wealth or credit is distributed among individuals according to how much they already have. This has the net effect of making it increasingly difficult for low ranked individuals to increase their totals because they have fewer resources to risk over time, and increasingly easy for high rank individuals to preserve a large total because they have a large amount to risk.

      The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.
      That’s Scotland 2022.
      .Dangerous language indeed. Whose idea was it to permit the peasants to leran to read, write and add up?

      • Legerwood says:

        Jack Collatin
        “”Dangerous language indeed. Whose idea was it to permit the peasants to leran to read, write and add up?””

        The leaders of the Reformation on their way to becoming the Church of Scotland.
        In their First Book of Discipline: school in every parish with a teacher who was a University Graduate. Boys AND girls to attend.

        • Ah, the kirk, who did a deal to be the religion in Scotland after the parcel of rogues handed our country over to England.
          The kirk got to keep all its land and control of the minds and bodies of Scotland’s peasants.
          I was paying feu duty to the Church of Scotland on my humble wee flat in Old Kilpatrick as recently as the early 1970’s.
          They struck a deal with the Anglicans, and oiled the wheels of the Great Con.

      • Jim says:

        ” India starved and died because they could not afford the food grown in their own country.”
        Scots froze and died because they could not afford the Energy grown in their own country.
        The energy companies and City of London traders are making billions in profits out of energy costs with all the accumulative taxes pouring into the treasury.
        History repeating itself.

        • I’m sure that the Cash and Carry King Millionaire Dentist Red Tory Brexiter Sarwar will blame the first recorded death from hyperthermia recorded in Scotland this winter on Nicola Sturgeon…
          It’s what the Brit Empire does…kill off the peasants by law and economics.

  3. Ken says:

    D’hondt has a quote. F Holyrood was FPTP, like Westminster, the SNP would have amassive majority. D’Hondt lets 3rd losers in. Introduced by unionists so they would always have a majority. They didn’t and they don’t.

    Support for Independence now6 60%. The Tories will be out. Including Jack.

    • Jonathan Marshall says:

      Maybe use our list votes to get rid of them… if the system is set up against you… find way to stop playing by their rules… maybe all list votes should be Green or Alba.

  4. Ken says:

    Indy Ref 85% turnout. Support for Independence 60%

  5. Also, we have:

    https://tinyurl.com/2s3ryswp

    August 2022
    Do you think there would be a democratic mandate for Scottish independence if a majority of voters vote Yes to independence in a referendum held by the Scottish Government without the agreement of the UK Government?
    47% Definitely / probably
    35% Probably not / definitely not
    13% No strong view either way
    5% DK

    = 57.3% Definitely / probably, or 65% in total supportive or happy enough to accept.

    Only 22% said ‘definitely not’. They are your true British nationalists.

    65%+ of Scots be like ‘Don’t give a f**k what England thinks, it’s what Scots think that ultimately decides matters’.

    Which is why depriving them of their free choice is not wise. In what world would be taking the vote off your own erstwhile supporters (those still saying No to indy at present) make sense? When they say ‘Don’t want an iref this year’ etc, they are saying that to their own Scottish government, they are not saying ‘English government, end Scottish democracy!’.

    [ps thanks mods for earlier correction to typo!]

  6. Capella says:

    Support from Quebec. Canada has a federal system and, as Michael Keating recently pointed out, the Federal Government would have to negotiate if there was a clear majority for independence.

    In UK, however, the SCUK ruled that precisely because a referendum would be an expression of the democratic will of the Scottish people, it would have political consequences and therefore be illegal.

    Québec indy organisation denounces UK Supreme Court ruling

    THE leader of a Canadian independence-supporting organisation has denounced the decision by the UK Supreme Court which ruled that Scotland cannot legislate for an independence referendum without Westminster’s consent.

    Benoit Roy, former MP and president of the Rassemblement pour un Pays Souverain (Rally for a Sovereign Country), has said it should be up to Scotland to decide its own future.

    Roy said: “This is a colonial-inspired legal judgment that Québec knows too well. It is only up to the Scottish and Québec nations to decide on their future.”

    On November 20, the group held up a Scottish flag during a traditional commemoration event of the Patriots War between 1837 and 1838.

    https://archive.ph/KZzBn

    • grizebard says:

      In UK, however, the SC ruled that precisely because a referendum would be an expression of the democratic will of the Scottish people, it would have political consequences and therefore be illegal.

      Worth repeating.

      This was as much a political as a legal decision. The SC just hid behind an ultra-narrow interpretation of WM law to deliver it. But now we all know how things truly stand. In that they have (inadvertently) done the people of Scotland a service. As Paul says, the Anglo-Brit politicians and media now own this annexation-by-pen, and have nowhere to hide.

      • Golfnut says:

        Exactly and to be honest I can’t for the life of me believe they were unaware of the consequences.

      • Luigi says:

        Indeed, democracy in Scotland poses an existential threat to the UK. Therefore democracy in Scotland has to be neutered.

  7. Bruce MacDougall says:

    The British State has made it clear that Scotland has no democratic rights. They are in the process of rewriting history. Scotland has to get out now, not wait for a GE, which even if the SNP won every seat and had 60% of the vote, Westminster would still say no. A suggestion hold a National Assembly, invite every Scottish MP’s, MSP’s and invite the UN to send observer’s. Vote to restore the fully constitutional Scottish Parliament in abeyance since 1707. Then vote to rescind the Treaty of Union which was passed by that Parliament.

    • grizebard says:

      And how sure are you that such a move would receive the whole-hearted support of the people of Scotland? That’s the ineluctable Achilles heel of this kind of magical thinking, which confuses the ardent beliefs of the promoter with that of the population at large.

      Without a serious campaign to get the truth over to the majority of people currently starved of a fair assessment of the realities, anything premature like this promises to be a massive flop that would set back independence for decades.

      It may be severely testing to the patience, but sometimes it’s more effective to allow your opponents to over-reach. And they are surely doing that right now.

      • Jonathan Marshall says:

        In some ways Nicola is correct if we can’t win the independence argument… we don’t deserve to be independent… my main problem with the SNP is that always trying to be reasonable still hasn’t significantly narrowed the gap… and their opponents still tar them as being unreasonable such as demanding a Democratic right. Maybe it is time the SNP stopped being so reasonable and actually combative calling out media and opponents each and every time they lie or don’t answer questions or indeed just make things up… there is definitely hay to be made… I’m often annoyed that bbc interviewers aren’t taken to task over how Scotland is funded and how it’s health and education is paid for maybe our SNP representatives should up their game and really get on top of their independence for Scotland brief.

        • grizebard says:

          The SNP in general haven’t reacted more aggressively for exactly the reason you mention, because it would simply look “bitter & twisted” (exactly how Anglo-Brit indy-haters always try to characterise Nicola in Parliament) and would risk alienating those who are crucial: the undecided. They have to see Nicola as “above the fray”, states(wo)manlike, not just another career politico always mindlessly slagging off the opposition like the others.

          Hence why she has tended to be gentler with Sarwar than with DRoss. But I do sense a hardening in attitude these days, which might well be in part a product of the same impatience we all feel, but which is also consonant with popular annoyance at the whole London guddlethon that keeps breaking through the persistent “SNP-bad” news management.

          The secret is to lead popular opinion, but not so much in front that it comes over as immoderate rabble-rousing, and thus loses traction with the unco hesitant. It’s a tricky line to follow and get right.

    • Golfnut says:

      If SCOTLAND doesn’t follow its own democratic principles we can hardly expect the international community to accept our withdrawal from the Treaty of Union. We require a vote to establish the will of the people and so far we have only established that we want to vote.

  8. Ken says:

    The turnout is a consideration. 85%. Ie 15% do not vote. ie 50% Yes. 35%No. 15% do not vote. Yes = 60% of the vote – turnout.

    • JP58 says:

      Ken
      I think every independence supporter would prefer there to be a 60% Yes vote on an 85% turnout.
      However this threshold was not used in 2014 vote or Brexit vote so this is akin to the 1979 40% devolution threshold which led to an entirely unsatisfactory outcome – not to mention 18 years of Tory Westminster rule which Scotland did not vote for.
      Regardless how much we would wish a very big Yes majority the consequences of Yes getting >50% of votes cast but less than your threshold would make the current division in Scotland look like a SundaySchool picnic. It would be an unsustainable and very unsatisfactory position and with the demographics favouring Yes with the younger electorate it would only be delaying the inevitable.

  9. Slightly off topic, but Jeez.

    https://archive.ph/yEBzj

    Wales star Ben Davies mocked online after giving interview in Welsh

    Wales defender Ben Davies has received a torrent of criticism online after carrying out an interview in the Welsh language. The 29-year-old Tottenham Hotspur defender made history recently by becoming the first ever player to do a World Cup press conference in Welsh.

    But the Neath-born defender, who grew up as a first-language Welsh speaker, was subjected to a flood of negative comments after his latest BBC interview. Davies was talking ahead of his country’s must-win match against England (Tuesday 7pm kick-off).

    Isn’t the BBC supposed to be the erm ‘National broadcaster’ of Welsh people?

    This is ‘global’ brexit Britain, where even people from the UK are told to ‘Speak English and not that furrin gobbledygook!’

  10. Anyone else hear James O’Brien type pennies dropping on the other side of the border?

    If you are a decent English person, that court ruling / your government gloating over it should trouble you deeply. If the Scots have lost their right to vote for the government of their choosing, you’ll be next.

    ‘First they came for the Scots…’

    https://archive.ph/M9tcw

    Dear PM, if Scots want closer links with Europe, why not? Let’s have a Scottish protocol

    Simon Jenkins

    England never gets Scotland right. Last week the prime minister, Rishi Sunak, repeated Downing Street’s familiar gloat over another reverse for Scottish home rule. London’s supreme court dismissed the Scottish National party’s bid for an “advisory” plebiscite on whether to hold another independence referendum. Just go home, said Sunak, and run Scotland better. He seemed to think the SNP’s Nicola Sturgeon would apologise for wasting his time. He merely reinforced her party’s antipathy to London and all its doings.

    The court’s decision was legally robust but politically inept. Sturgeon’s poll would have been purely advisory. The court appeared to be saying that independence was a forbidden subject to Scottish opinion, lending force to her claim that “the notion of the UK as a voluntary partnership of nations … is no longer a reality”. In the unlikely event of the Scots “advising” another referendum, then real questions might be asked as to what independence involved.

    • London’s supreme court dismissed the Scottish National party’s bid for an “advisory” plebiscite on whether to hold another independence referendum

      Ok, bit of a face palm here, but he understands the court case and their reaction is not a good look for the English government!

    • Golfnut says:

      Doesn’t really have clue, them real questions he posits should be asked need to be directed at westminster.

      • No, he doesn’t, other that sensing that what is happening is not right and will play into pro-indy party hands. Which is my point.

        The UKSC changes perceptions in England too. Before it was ‘Up to Scots’ for those that support democracy in England, which in the end is most people. Now they will see their government cracking down on Scots and that will make decent people very uncomfortable. I know some who are already looking at their feet.

        Only those of fascist leanings could possibly think it right that Scots cannot freely vote for indy if we want, and that applies on both sides of the border. For the average English person, Scotland is another country just like Wales is. Part of the UK, but you can’t be English unless Scots are Scots and Welsh are Welsh etc. England only exists if Scotland and Wales do too.

        So lots of ignorance and misunderstanding because of the Anglocentric nature of the UK, but you can’t misunderstand the basic anti-democratic nature of what is happening. We have a Tory government on only 25% of the vote denying Scots the right to stop them ruling Scotland. That will get sympathy, even if Starmer is to pre-occupied chasing hard right brexiter votes to realise it.

        If I was English, I’d be feeling very bad right now and, well, what would I say if I traveled to Scotland? I’d want to say it was not my fault and I didn’t support it, just like I want to say when in the EU post brexit. Much like James O’Brien said about the UKSC case.

        It’s gone beyond Scotland now. Pandora’s box has been opened.

        Think of the north of Ireland case. The justification for it being in the UK has always been ‘because people there want it to be’. Then imagine the people their vote for a referendum on reunification and the English government says No. Gone is the whole justification. Everything changes. That is what just happened in our case.

    • James Mills says:

      ” In the unlikely event of the British ”advising” a referendum , then real questions might be asked as to what Brexit involved ”.
      Hmmm ! Did that happen Mr Jenkins ?

      • grizebard says:

        Maybe you’re making a point of your own, James, but Jenkins was actually quoted as asserting that the Scots were unlikely to “advise” a referendum.

        Which we actually did at the last Scottish General Election, Mr. Jenkins, in case you had missed it. Another peculiar take over Scotland, of which he is a specialist.

        Though even he does at least seem to get the point that annexation isn’t a good look for his precious England. Which for him (and likely many others down south) is at least a start.

  11. Dr Jim says:

    The trouble with England’s government is they understand nothing deliberately until international trades deal are cut off or body bags begin to appear

  12. This is gold dust for Yes. It’s like they are taking a machine gun to last dying remnants of the UK.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20221128204154/https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/28/whitehall-chief-looking-at-whether-to-stop-civil-service-work-on-scotland-vote

    Whitehall chief looking at whether to stop civil service work on Scotland vote

    Simon Case, the head of the UK civil service, is looking into whether officials in Scotland should still be allowed to do work related to a second independence referendum, Alister Jack, the Scotland secretary, has said.

    I genuinely expect calls for Sturgeon and co to be jailed next, Spanish Franco-admiring extreme right style.

  13. Golfnut says:

    You’ll notice the dialogue is now focussed on a referendum the SC said Holyrood can’t hold.

  14. Dr Jim says:

    We’ll know exactly how much of a panic they’re in when they announce that Nicola Sturgeon and *her* SNP government are no longer serving the people of Scotland and as the democratic constitutional government of the whole of the UK they must therefore intervene and put an emergency administration in place to carry out the business that’s not being addressed by the Nationalist separatists

    Some might say I’ve gone too far now, but I just wish I could describe the sound I’m making in words *simultaneous groan sigh throaty agchy noise*

    • JoMax says:

      The British Raj has been reincarnated and is in full flow right here in Scotland. The parallels are uncanny but it’s what they do.

  15. grizebard says:

    To the likes of us, this blinkered SC underwriting of an insidious English annexation of Scotland is an self-evident constitutional blunder of the first magnitude. A spectacular failure to rise to the occasion that has finally got the Union banished from the Last Chance Saloon. But has any neutral constitutional expert stopped cowering in self-imposed seclusion and dared to pass comment yet…?

  16. Dr Jim says:

    If Scotland really wants democracy it has to look abroad to see how other peoples handle it, even in China where they’re liable to be killed they’re making more noise than us, we don’t have to march up and down to be noisy and inconvenient to Westminster, we can stand still and be totally inconvenient

    Unions go on strike for money and conditions after all

    • Valkyrie says:

      This!
      So much this!

      We’re living in a non-democratic dictatorship like something that even Orwell would have thought “oof, that’s a bit much!” on, and we’re being far too polite about that fact…

  17. Dr Jim says:

    he case for the union as follows:

    You had a vote in 2014, the combined votes of the British parties are more, the polls show that nobody wants it
    Mairi Black: Do you accept that Scotland has never voted Tory since 1955 therefore you have no mandate to govern?
    Malcolm Offord the unelected viceroy replied: “It makes no difference, under the constitution we are a union and have the right to rule and that was agreed”
    Alister Jack secretary of state for Scotland: blah blah blah blah Naw nae never no more will you ever have a say in anything

    The Westminster government of England is now using newspaper polling as the go to advisors on the governance of Scotland, the Telegraph, the Scotsman, the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, the Daily Record

    None of these English newspapers in my recollection have ever been elected by Scotland’s people to any political position in any government in any country of this so called UK, very much the same as Scottish viceroy Malcolm Offord

    • Golfnut says:

      I think what Offord meant to say was ‘ oppress ‘ rather than rule because government in our uk (despite the English misconception that it’s their uk, Scotland is one of only two signatories to the Treaty of Union) they require consent. It’s different in England of course, and their confusion can only be down to the right wing Anglo centric supremacist nutters in the much vaunted higher echelons of their education system. How they come to terms with the reality that England is no more Independent than Scotland in international law will no doubt involve a great number of dummies being spat and a level of wailing and gnashing of teeth normally reserved for England losing a fitba match, it will no doubt cause everybody a lot of grief but it will be worth the effort just to put their gas at a peep.
      Westminster doesnt have any authority other than that provided for in the Treaty of Union, the imposition of sovereignty over the Scottish people using English common law is a breach of the Treaty of Union as well as unlawful and westminster has no authority to change the Treaty the Treaty of Union.
      An oft missed part of the summary from McCormack V’s the Lord Advocate 1953.

      I hope links properly.

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/1081934212006008/permalink/2021135924752494/

  18. Luigi says:

    Like some others, I do feel that the SNP tries to be too nice and obedient. Doing things the right way? Sure, there’s a time to be nice, but there’s also a time to be disruptive and cause the UK establishment problems. Support for the SNP actually goes up when sleeves are rolled up and they get stuck in. This fight is going to get dirty folks, our opponents will see to that. No point in being nice and law abiding all the time. Kneeling down to unionist law never works – you are simply fighting them on their terms and they will continue to move their legal goalposts. With the SC ruling, now may be the time to be brave and give the British establishment a real headache. No more nice nice. People have had enough they want to see real action. If we ho down, let’s go down fighting, not with a whimper.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      There is a time for everything, but no matter how frustrating it is for some, the SNP’s approach of patience has paid massive dividends thus far.
      You only need look at English public opinion of politicians for a measure of who are regarded as the adults in the room, it is head and shoulders SNP.

      There was an interesting C4 interview with Robertson, DRoss and Sarwar which perfectly illustrated how the Indy argument comes over from Scots politicians, even if Angus was nipping heels on occasion. DRoss came over as the normal arrogant opinionated Unionist, Sarwar tried on polling figures and the super-devo-max solution as what Scots really wanted (Vow2), but Angus kept returning to the democratic choice made by Scots at the ballot box, the mandate – Angus won hands down.

      When the normally calm and measured Mark Drakeford at the Senedd finally blew a gasket, the response from the Welsh public of every political persuasion was 100% in support of Drakeford.
      The Tory gambit (a la Baillie/Gulhane) of attacking A&E figures as signs of political failure has since been abandoned.

      My point is that when disruption is perceived as entirely justified by the public, it carries significantly greater weight, being seen as petulant does the exact opposite.
      Mainstream politicians and media may not be on our side but the people are, not least due to EU aspirations in the wake of Brexit.
      Support for Indy support is rising, let’s keep our powder dry.

      • Luigi says:

        I agree Bob, patience has worked a treat thus far, but it won’t forever. People are rightly appalled by the SC ruling. This may be the time for a good old constitutional brawl. Serious disruption – not constant but choose yer moment. Sometimes one can box too clever for ones own good. Forget Queensberry rules. If your opponent’s chin is exposed – strike hard before the chance is gone. I don’t want to see continual disruption but I want to see something. Action not words.

        • Bob Lamont says:

          I fully understand the impatience, but a show of petulance is rarely productive.
          If you skim some of the blogs in England you will see for yourself the majority are equally appalled at what has transpired from the SC ruling, not that you will see any of that reported in MSM.

          In similar vein as my final point alluded to, Brexit is a major grievance and become deeply unpopular in England, whilst politicians and media ignore it – Just as the political stance over Indy is perceived as undemocratic so too is Brexit, but some of the MSM have realised they can’t keep a lid on it.

          Add to those grievances winter bills landing, possibly power cuts, cost of living increases, strikes – Politicians and MSM trying to make excuses won’t cut it, there is going to be an almighty rumpus both sides of the border.
          Then will be the right time to strike hard and effectively, with the crowd backing you all the way….

  19. Eilidh says:

    In the past week it has been proven Scotland has no real democracy, that pyscho in the Kremlin Putin is still bombing the hell out of the Ukranian people,their energy and water infrastructure and the Chinese are getting arrested for protesting against their own government holding them captive in their own homes for nigh on 3 years,not to mention we have a full on cost of living crisis .However guess what the main item on BBC and Sky news is this morning a bloody football match between guess who Engerland and some other place oh right it’s Wales. Have I mentioned how much I hate football I also detest the use of my TV licence fee to pay for it. I doubt whether even Wales winning would cheer me up. The BBC is a full on English propaganda channel these days that broadcasts mostly crappy stuff like Strictly, sport and blatantly biased political coverage. What a world we live in !!!

    • Do keep up, Eilidh.
      There are 153 articles heralding the Ranjurs new manager swamping the Jock Dead Tree Scrolls today.
      I may be starving, freezing, in a zero hours job, but hallelujah, We arra peepil!

      It is the modern take on the Roman poet Juvenal’s ‘bread and circuses’.

      Keep the Great Unwashed distracted by World Cups or Ranjurs and Sellick nonsense, and the Elite can get away with anything they like.

      In ancient Rome they stopped killing Christians for sport, substituting the Strictly Come Slaughter with chariots races, with the same mind-numbing effect, keep the masses ignorant and baying for blood.

      A disgraced Tory Minister is coining it in on a ridiculous TV farce..and millions watch, while England burns.

      We are near tipping point.

      I love football, truly, but will never tune in to English ‘pundits’ prattling nonsense for hours on end, to the greater glory of ‘the nation’, that nation being England of course, which according to their SC doesn’t exist anymore.
      Keep on keeping on, Eilidh.

  20. English colonial governor Alister Jack saying we can have a referendum ‘when a clear majority support it’ while furiously doing everything humanly possible to encourage this.

    • s_s,
      B-Lister Jack sees The Northern Territory as England’s Sudetenland.
      Hitler, who considered that the Treaty of Versailles humiliated vanquished Germany, annexed Sudetenland, which had been subsumed in to Czechoslovakia by the allies, despite the majority of the Sudeten population being German.
      Hitler also marched into the Rhineland, unopposed by the France and England in 1936.
      And we all know what happened next.
      I am sure that Jack sincerely believes that the Brit Unionists and ‘settlers’ outnumber us nasty mainly lower caste Nats.
      Ergo The Governor General of the Northern Territory may draw parallels with Sudetenland and the Rhone Soane Corridor, in demanding that the Scottish Civil Service be returned to England’s control.
      Annexation 101.

      I wonder what would happen if they suggested taking control of the Six Counties Civil Service?
      The Fall and Fall of the British Empire.
      The man is an arrogant bumptious fool with no authority to dictate to scotland, other than by threat of force by his English masters.

  21. Why are we allowing ourselves to be bound by the decision of a court, the so-called Supreme Court, when I believe Lord Cullen said that such a court would be illegal, given the countries having differing legal systems? Just asking.

  22. Capella says:

    Karen Adam on the galvanising effect of the SCUK decision.

    The indyref ruling has laid bare the undemocratic Union for all to see

    As the decision was revealed, I found myself incredibly frustrated at the messaging once again coming from pro-Union parties. To ask for the decision to be respected is indeed a false narrative. How could we not respect it? We are bound to it, and we must abide by it – that’s exactly what the problem is.

    They are counting on the public assuming the ruling was against the Scottish Government having a referendum when it was interpreting the law as to whether we can legally initiate a referendum without the consent of Westminster.

    The pro-Union parties seemed to be in a bit of a fluster about this, as they know fine well their undemocratic Union was laid bare for all to see. We are certainly not in a consensual or equal union.

    I found it intriguing that, once again, the pro-independence side saw this as an opportunity to galvanise and gather, while the pro-Union side didn’t have much to say – very subdued and unprepared, I thought.

    For us, there’s nothing more motivational than being told no when it’s a matter of justice.

    https://archive.ph/gFey5

  23. Capella says:

    OTOH Gauleiter Jack smugly tells the “Scottish Affairs” Committee that we will know when the time is right for a referendum by using the “duck test”.

    Alister Jack: Holyrood elections can not deliver mandate for indyref2

    The top Tory told MPs: “It’s the duck test. If it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck and it waddles like a duck then it’s probably a duck. People know when they’ve reached that point.

    “They knew back then [in 2014] that they’d reached it. We don’t believe we’ve reached it now.”

    Asked if a majority of people in Scotland voting in an “electoral contest” for the proposition of independence would “satisfy” him, the Scottish Secretary suggested that votes cast in Scottish Parliament elections could never deliver a mandate for indyref2, or independence itself.

    “You can’t have a mandate for something that we now know legally that you don’t have any power over,” he said.

    “In reinforcing my point, the Scottish Government can no more – although they put it in every manifesto that they want to remove Trident from Faslane – no more have the power to take away our nuclear deterrent than they do to break up our United Kingdom.”

    “That’s very clear and the justices agree with me on that,” he added.

    https://archive.ph/ZARuU

    • The problem with this argument is that it is in direct opposition to the UKSC ruling. This said a referendum could not be held as Scots could use it to vote for independence and that, politically, this could not be ignored, yet is a ‘reserved matter’.

      So, does that mean elections in Scotland must be cancelled if Yes parties opt to make these an indy plebiscite? This would be no different to a referendum after all. As the BBC’s Prof. Curtice has been forthright in pointing out, parties can stand on whatever ticket they like in elections, including independence. No law against that. SNP used to do it at every Westminster election prior to devolution, just as the likes of Thatcher told them they could.

      Or maybe our English colonial government will next move to ban pro-indy parties, whereby rigging elections? Would be a natural next step to the UKSC ruling.
      Dictators needs to either rig or ban elections. It’s the only way to stop people voting for what they want, as this just can’t be ignored if they do, just as the UKSC ruled. The reason for this is, as I have stated in past posts, if a population comes to believe a majority amongst them do support a particular policy such as independence, they will take to the streets if denied, it and the 3.5% rule kicks in, bringing down the regime. So, you need to sow doubt by not letting free and fair votes happen. That way, individuals are not sure what their fellow countryfolk actually want, and the propaganda machine can keep going to reinforce this, relentless telling them it’s not the will of the people.

  24. Ken says:

    Jack will be gone soon. Even sooner if the nurses strike. It will not be up to the Tories when they are voted out. Voted out, That is democracy. It will be up to someone else to sort out their mess.

    • It’s clinically described as megalomania.
      Alister Jack is deluded into thinking that he has importance and power Up Here in Scotland.
      He comes across as manically paranoic and seems to suffer from the notion that he has absolute power over me, and remember I am millions, just because the BBC and the Herald give him column inches and broadcast privileges to spout his imperialist drivel.
      His whole demeanour is one of haughty disdain, infused with the bluff and bluster of which was systematically inculcated in him from birth; private prepp school, followed by Glenalmond college, then Heriot Watts.
      His father was Lord Lieutenant of Dumfries, and Jack Jnr is Deputy lord Lieutenant now.
      He is The Ruling Class, one of a ‘Country Sat’ startight out of Buchan’s 39 Steps, the gentleman farmer of a 1200-acre plot near Lockerbie, and a ‘friend’ of Johnson, who has given him the keys to the House of Lards.

      Of course he demands that we Scots behave ourselves. England has been everything to him and his forebears.
      His job is to rule over us as Governor General of the colony. He is The Grand Panjandrum. With one phone call he can muster a brigade to march on Glasgow to quell riotous natives.
      Or so he apparently thinks.

      Well, we no longer use bows and arrows to fend off the pesky furriners.
      We us democracy Up Here.
      We voted for independence and Self Determination is ours to take, not some pseudo-English country gent’s to deny.

      The days of the Jock Raj are over.
      He refuses to consider that democracy trumps bluster and privilege.
      His kind will always be with us…

  25. Ken says:

    Jack will duck off without a mandate. Anyone expecting something from the Tories et al will be disappointed.

    Westminster spent£915Billion.£819Billionwas raised. £270Billion spenton Covid. 2019/20 butdo not have money to pay the workers. The Tories and their associates lying their pockets like there is no tomorrow.

    Scotland did not get £27Billion for parity.

  26. Tories be like ‘How do we get Scots to back indy? What about us English taking the sweaty sock electorate to court to block the iref they voted for? Brilliant idea! That will help get Yes over the line! Ok, done. What next to boost independence support? What’s that Jack? Stop the jocko government spending any money on what voters specifically asked them to in the last election! Genius! Scotchland will be gone in a year!’.

    Or maybe they are all just thick as pigs**t and think they are saving the union?

    Just imagine the impact these sort of headlines would have had on the leave vote back in 2016:

    Brussels court blocks British EU referendum! Junker’s unelected bureaucrats move to prevent UK government spending cash on Brexit referendum!

    You can’t save the UK other than by getting Scots to freely choose it at the ballot box. That is the only way.

  27. Dr Jim says:

    Settled will of the people, sustained support for Independence, newspaper polls, nobody wants it
    Let’s just talk about that for one minute, not a soul in the general public had ever even heard of Brexit, leaving the EU, exiting the single market, until the fascist right wing of the Tory party sold it using money and lies and the promise of ridding England’s green and pleasant land of the same colour of folk who is now the Prime Minister of the *we don’t take the blame for anything Tory party*
    Labour didn’t want it, Liberal Democrats didn’t want it, SNP and Greens didn’t want it, three of the four countries of this benighted UK were dead against it, and yet according to Alister Jack’s fascist Tory made up logic, that must have been the settled will of the people or they wouldn’t have even asked the question

    They’re liars charlatans and fraudsters preventing democracy in Scotland by using bogus law and selling that to people the same way they sold Brexit

    It’s gone too far now and ……

    Scotland has people who mean to misbehave

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