The death of traditional Scottish unionism

The UK Supreme Court has made its ruling. It’s a no, it’s a big fat no. That ruling came as no great surprise, a court established in London by a British Government and steeped in the English constitutional dogma of the absolute sovereignty of Westminster was never going to find sufficient legal wriggle room to allow Holyrood to hold an independence referendum, even a referendum which was carefully specified as being consultative, without Westminster’s permission. The ruling was not just a no, it was a flat out no, a unanimous no. The ruling did at least give us a definitive answer to the question of whether Holyrood can proceed with its plans for another referendum and did not, as some had feared, refuse to give a ruling on the substance of the matter.

The court – at least in its summary judgement – made no recognition of the fact that the only democratic means open to the people of Scotland to express their democratic wish for another referendum is through an election to the Scottish Parliament. That is exactly what happened at the Holyrood election last year, and the result was unarguable. By the normal rules of all elections in the UK the parties advocating another referendum won a clear and solid majority and a mandate to bring about another referendum. This means that, despite what the likes of Anas Sarwar would have us believe, the political question of whether there should be another referendum has already received an answer as definitive as the Supreme Court’s ruling that the Scottish Parliament lacks the legal competence to hold one. If democracy in Scotland is to have any meaning, there must be another independence referendum.

This ruling did not settle the question of independence – it gave us another powerful and compelling reason why independence is necessary.

There is now a clear contradiction between the legal situation and the democratic situation. The judges have effectively ruled that Scotland is a hostage of whoever the Conservatives have chosen to install in Downing Street. The generations long claim so beloved of traditional Scottish Unionism that the United Kingdom is a voluntary union of nations is a myth, a lie told to the people of Scotland by British nationalists in order to secure Scotland’s loyalty. Traditional Scottish Unionism died today. The fairy story that the United Kingdom is a voluntary union of nations is dead and buried. A union in which member nations may only exercise their right to decide whether they wish to remain in that union or to leave it with the permission of a government effectively chosen by the electorate of the largest nation in that union is not a voluntary union in any meaningful sense of the term. There is as much substance to the claim that the United Kingdom is a voluntary union as there was to Gordon Brown’s Vow, as there was to the promise that no Westminster government would ever meddle with the devolution settlement without the express consent of the Scottish Parliament.

The Supreme Court dismissed arguments based upon the right to self-determination enshrined in international law. It ruled that Scotland is not a colony. It ruled that Scotland is not oppressed. It ruled that Scotland is not denied meaningful access to control over its own affairs, and then it issued a ruling denying Scotland meaningful access to control over its own affairs as far as deciding whether it wishes to revisit the question of independence is concerned. This is not the fault of the court. The court does not make the law, it merely interprets it. The fault lies squarely with those Westminster politicians who have always told Scotland that it is a part of a voluntary union, but who have denied Scotland any means of putting their claim the test. Westminster and the Conservative party are blocking Scottish democracy.

There is now no answer to the question – What is the democratic route to another referendum given that we now know that it is not the people of Scotland voting for a parliament to which they have given a mandate for another referendum. This represents the ultimate failure of devolution. Devolution cannot guarantee democracy in Scotland, it cannot guarantee that the people of Scotland will get what they vote for, because what Scotland votes for is subject to a veto from an occupant of Downing Street that no one voted for and who represents a party which has not won a democratic election in Scotland since 1955. The UK is not a voluntary Union, Scotland is a hostage to the Conservative party.

This is intolerable, and as she gave her reaction to the Supreme Court ruling, the First Minister noted that the court did not rule that there is no legal route to Scottish independence, it ruled that the Scottish Parliament cannot pass a bill to bring about another independence referendum without Westminster’s consent. However democracy in Scotland cannot and will not be blocked by a minority party in Scotland which has been consistently rejected at the ballot box by the people of Scotland.

The Conservatives and Labour have every right in a democracy to oppose independence and to oppose holding another independence referendum, but what they cannot do if democracy in Scotland is to have any meaning is to resort to authorities outwith Scotland to ensure that they still get their way after they put their propositions to the people of Scotland in an election which they lost. Yet that is exactly what the democracy deniers of Anglo-British supremacism are doing now.

Independence is now no longer solely about building a Scotland which works for and in the interests of the people of Scotland and ensuring that Scotland always gets a government which the people of Scotland voted for. Independence is still about those things, but now another dimension has been added to the independence question, independence is now also about ensuring democracy itself. We know know that democracy in Scotland cannot be guaranteed as long as Scotland remains a part of this non voluntary and unequal union.

The First Minister announced today that democracy cannot be denied. The people of Scotland must have their say in a legal and democratic vote on the future of their country. Therefore the next election in Scotland will become a de facto referendum on independence. Labour and the Tories must now explain themselves to the people of Scotland, they must explain their lies about the nature of a union which we now know is not voluntary at all. They must explain what the democratic route is for the people of Scotland to secure another referendum now that we know it is not voting for a Scottish Parliament committed to delivering one. During PMQs in the Commons today, the unelected Prime Minister repeatedly refused to answer that question.

The First Minister also announced a special conference of the SNP and discussions with the Greens in order to determine the question to be put to the voters of Scotland at that de facto referendum and a plan of action once a Yes majority is secured. Scotland will have its say, but we have work to do between now and then to build that secure Yes majority and to hold the democracy deniers of Anglo-British nationalism to account. That will continue to be the sole focus of this blog until that Yes vote is secured.

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126 comments on “The death of traditional Scottish unionism

  1. rongorongo says:

    Excellent summary. Doors (that aren’t prison doors) need a handle on both sides.

  2. grizebard says:

    The English Supreme Court may have asserted that Scotland is not a colony, but the overtly political “reasoning” given that we cannot decide our future for ourselves very effectively proves the diametric opposite.

  3. To true Paul but I will quibble that it’s not ‘traditional Scottish unionism’ that’s dead, but unionism itself. All that’s left is British nationalism.

    As I said on the other thread, unionists can no longer campaign for the union. That’s based on it being a choice. They can’t knock people’s doors and try to persuade them to vote for something they are simultaneously denying them an actual vote on. That is exactly what people will angrily tell them if they try. There can be no ‘No’ campaign now.

    By contrast, Yes can keep campaigning, now now just for independence, but for civil rights, freedom and democracy for the people of Scotland in the face of imperialist, authoritarian rule by a foreign country currently occupying our own without consent.

    What true Scottish unionists can do now is join that campaign for civil rights, freedom and democracy, that begins today. They have had their unionism taken from them by an English / British nationalist government. Their beliefs and identity were dealt a serious blow today. They can only regain these – if they still wish to – by standing with us.

    By contrast, Scottish indy supporters have been proven correct for the Scots, the wider peoples of the UK, and international community to see. The UK is not a democracy and Scotland is not freely in it. End of. The mask has finally slipped. The pretence of democracy and ‘voluntary’ union dismissed.

    Yes has gained today while unionism has all but been killed stoned dead. This was openly acknowledged by my traditionally English and Labour voting neighbours. One is likely to vote Yes following events of recent months, while the other will have taken a big leap towards that today as he firmly believes in democracy and self-determination.

    • grizebard says:

      Yes. As I said yesterday, it’s a win for independence. Just a different one than the more direct one of putting it straight to the Scottish people to decide, but instead something far more fundamental. We do not, according to the Supreme Court, and echoed gleefully on the radio by ex-SC jurist Lord Sumption, have any right to self-determination. Imagine that!

      We are in effect the Ukraine to England’s Russia. The sense of overweening ownership is as palpable, it’s just the suppression is done in a far more subtle way. Until today, at least.

  4. grizebard says:

    Here’s an odd thing. The SC declares that a non-binding referendum on independence cannot be instituted by the Scottish Parliament on its own, because of the political – not legal, note, political – implications of the result on their precious Union. But under the Scotland Act, Holyrood is still able to institute referendums on any other subject which has overtly no such effect. Anything superficially anodyne that has a “yes”/”no” answer to the question, eg. “should the Scottish flag be flown from a flagpole at Holyrood all year round?”. Then once the law is enacted, and the arrangements put in place, the pro-indy movement make it known that the referendum is in effect a proxy independence one. Such a referendum would also be non-binding, but have the exact same political effect as the overt one the SC so deeply fears. There is no practical difference whatever!

    The only way the Union could guard itself against that fearful possibility would be to ban all referendums in Scotland, period.

    It’s only one little step more to ban all elections as well. Since they might also endanger the preciousss Union.

    It’s a damn dangerous path to start down, this suppression of the democratic will, for fear of the consequences.

  5. Fable says:

    Cannot listen to EBC today..at all..just rolling out all the naysayers and unionists…I’m raging to be honest

    • So will most Scots, including Scottish unionists. Never interrupt an enemy when they are making a disastrous mistake.

      It is unionism that has been dealt a massive blow today, with the independence cause given a huge boost. Let British nationalism wallow in it’s ignorance oan the telly, totally failing to understand the withering friendly fire it just unleashed on its own allies / voters.

      Scottish unionism lies bloodied and bruised on the battlefield today. Shot to hell by who it thought was its English / British allies.

      Meanwhile, we indy supporters look on bemused as our primary adversary is taken out for us.

    • grizebard says:

      Yup, so I think are we all. Best though to make it a cold anger that will endure.

      The judgement will no doubt hearten the ~25% of Unionist holdouts who will never be convinced and want nothing even to do with devo, but everyone else – and not just in Scotland – can now see what has just been for the very first time laid fully bare.

  6. Dr Jim says:

    When the de facto referendum election takes place the UK of England’s government will deny that result if it’s pro independence and declare it illegal by their law

    There can and will not be democracy for Scotland using diplomacy now
    England has made that clear

  7. Hamish100 says:

    In an abusive relationship if the abusers says you have no voice 0r rights then you are not in an equal relationship but an abusive and controlling one.

  8. We are “not a colony”. Colony = a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country. So, what’s it to be? Looks very much, to me, that we are a colony, so the next of many steps should be an approach to the UN.
    In addition, it would do no harm if all Independistas signed up to http://www.liberation.scot. Any and all avenues of progress need to be supported.

  9. yesindyref2 says:

    I think (and hope) that Westminster is in deep trouble.

  10. We are not a colony. We are not a nation. We are a lump of rock to the north of England.So say the powdered wigs of the Brit Establishment, Legal Wing.
    We’ve had our tea.
    The ‘Northern Territory’ (?) in no longer divided.
    Aye, right.
    Ian Murray the Lone Gunman and Baron Alister Jack of Borismate are not triumphalist though, but, mind.
    IN England’s Parliament, one lone wee New Labour gnaff, and the Baron-to-be, One of six Brit Nationalists, lecture the Independence majority on what the people of Scotland want, whether they like it or not.

    What the learned judges did was buy England another two or three years plundering Scotland’s wealth, or so they think.

    I can’t be bothered discussing this further.

    There is no Union; there never was.
    WE are a militarily occupied colony of England.

    Time for drastic action now, not in two years time.

    WE all knew what the outcome would be.
    Back in your box, Jox.
    This may end up very very badly.

  11. Welsh_Siôn says:

    Double hit.

    Scots and Welsh have no rights under the proposed ‘Bill of Rights’.

    https://nation.cymru/news/welsh-secretary-rejects-calls-for-wales-and-scotland-be-given-the-right-to-self-determination-in-proposed-bill-of-rights/

    Welsh Secretary rejects calls for Wales and Scotland be given the ‘right to self-determination’ in proposed Bill of Rights

    23 Nov 2022 2 minute read

    Welsh Secretary David TC Davies has dismissed calls for Wales and Scotland be given the “right to self-determination” in the UK Government’s proposed Bill of Rights.

    Plaid Cymru’s Westminster leader Liz Saville Roberts sought a commitment from Mr Davies in the House of Commons this morning, after the UK Supreme Court had unanimously decided that the Scottish Government does not have the power to call an independence referendum.

    […]

    ___________

    This is no longer, as we say, only a fight for independence.

    It is a fight for democracy itself.

    With you, Scotland and fellow-Duggers.

    Ymlaen! / Onward!

  12. Nice to be proven right in that the UK isn’t a democracy, but the last remnants of England’s empire. It reaffirms everything you believe in when it comes to Scottish independence. This alone, as Sturgeon states, is reason enough to back indy.

    All those times I’ve said this to people and they’ve argued otherwise, saying the UK was voluntary. Well, now they know. They know we spoke the truth, and that unionists lied to them.

    • Dr Jim says:

      It’s voluntary for England, they own the law and can rewrite it at will

      • Yes, if the voters of England want a referendum, e.g. on Brexit, no Section 30 required. Just need parties with a mandate to get sufficient seats in their parliament, and not even under PR.

        Scots, Welsh, N. Irish by contrast are second class citizens. Sorry, English colonial subjects.

        • Robert says:

          Yes, since when has it been a voluntary union? The English Alien Act of 1705 designated Scots in England as aliens and restricted trade to force Scotland to negotiate a union, then money, honours and appointments were were handed out to bribe Scottish Peers and MPs to support it, whilst there were anti-union riots in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Bought and sold for English gold such a parcel of rogues indeed.

          • I don’t dispute your points, but many Scots voters thought it was voluntary, and would quote you 2014 etc. They are now getting a rude awakening.

            • Robert says:

              Thank you for your response. To misquote Churchill “those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it” also there is a regular National commentator who ends his comments with “never trust a unionist” both are relevant as we move forward.

              • grizebard says:

                (George Santayana, not Churchill. Though Winston also had his share of amusing aphorisms, like “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they’ve tried everything else first”.)

    • grizebard says:

      To be fair, there are probably some Unionists who believed it themselves. Now there’s nowhere to hide.

      What about, for example, all those former Labour and FibDem MPs who proudly voted for the Claim of Right back in 1989? One of whom, let’s not forget, was one Gordo Broon. I look forward to his future unstinting public support for that claim, now that devo is all but dead and waiting to be buried.

      • To be fair, there are probably some Unionists who believed it themselves

        That’s who is most important right now. That’s who London’s salvo just smashed right into. London thinks it’s hit Sturgeon’s SNP, when it fact it hit it’s own voters. The fellow Scots the 50%+ Yes are trying to persuade from devo to indy.

        I have said we should never mistake a Scottish unionists for a British nationalist.

        Today, London Britnats attacked Scottish unionists; those types who stood with us in 1997 and voted Yes. In the coming weeks and months, we should go help them to their feet and be careful not say ‘told you so’, but persuade them to stand with us again.

        • grizebard says:

          Yes, I do agree.

          The unintended bad consequences of this decision for Unionist support may be far reaching. For one, it has holed Labour’s oft-repeated false argument that it “needs Scotland to win power in WM”. Instead that has now silently morphed into “we can’t afford to let you leave because otherwise we’re permanent losers”. A bargain electoral offer that can’t be refused…?

  13. Hamish100 says:

    I see the popsicles blame the FM. No surprise.

    I think they have forgotten the actual target is Westminster and England.

    Of course the usual suspects froth in the unionist coffee shouting freedom. Toom tabards right enough.

    • davetewart says:

      The FM was part of the question posing .

      We now know the answer.
      Scotland can only leave the union IF englandland agrees.

      We are a colony with a parish council.

      We are looking like we are on our way to reject the SC as the decision maker on the democractic right.

      Do the unionists really want to ignite a different way to democracy?
      History says they do until the natives revolt, even then they would pour money and people into holding that position until the economics say otherwise.

  14. Golfnut says:

    Nothing that’s been said in this commentary so far is true or indeed reflects Scotland’s legal position within the union which in fact is no different to where it stood before devolution. For our own propaganda purposes, it’s a gift and one I have no doubt will be exploited very publicly both home and abroad.
    I’m not sure which of the following fits Lord Reed’s summary best, I’m still trying to fathom just how much of a dog’s dinner they’ve made of it.
    1) they were leaned on, 2) just plain stupid or 3) it’s meant to fail.
    The union Parliaments authority stems from and is limited by the Treaty of Union and so far as Scotland is concerned, Parliamentary Sovereignty is irrelevant . Scotland leaving the Union doesn’t alter or diminish either English Constitutional law or English Common law. England’s Parliamentary sovereignty would not have stopped Scotland leaving the union before devolution, it won’t now. Probably more help than hindrance.
    Nicola has called for a conference with the Greens, watch the gloves come off.

    • grizebard says:

      Interesting observations, as usual.

      I don’t think it was (1); their own ingrained English Establishment-think was sufficient. (2) certainly, but compelled by the notion, as with the rest of the Anglo-British Establishment, that hegemony is everything, and the notorious “flexible constitution” is merely a convenient means to an end in maintaining it. It plainly wasn’t a legal decision, it was a legally-clothed reassertion of that assumed entitlement. An attempted avoidance of what for them is the most feared of outcomes: a loss of control. This fear has evidently turned them from jurists living up to their fancy job title into pedantic defenders of the patently indefensible. And as such, though unintended, it will fail.

  15. James Mills says:

    News channels are still reporting that it is ”Sturgeon’s Independence Referendum ” that has been dismissed by the Engli…sorry , Supreme Court .
    If only they could get rid of that woman then the irritant of Scottish Independence would dissipate like mist in the morning .

    • grizebard says:

      Aye richt. And their predecessor democracy-deniers in an earlier era said the same about Mahatma Ghandi.

      They’ve just won a brief respite, but they never learn: they’ve just made it harder still for themselves in the longer run.

    • Dr Jim says:

      Will the imperial England authority instruct its broadcasters to voice over Nicola Sturgeons words with an actor ?

      We know the media has been instructed to make Scottish democracy sound as though it’s only the First Minister who demands it, to hell with the whole country of Scotland’s people voting for it, because Imperial law in England says we have no rights to the same rights as people in England as long as they call themselves British, eh, well that’s the *British* people who live in the country of England

      If somebody can show me the country of Britain on any map I’ll happily emigrate to Narnia

      There’ll be consequences

  16. One_Scot says:

    I am not really up with all the goings on of late regarding the Independence referendum, but I heard Nicola say today that the next UK general election will be a defacto referendum on Independence.

    Will this mean 16, 17 year olds and EU citizens will miss out voting for Independence?

    • grizebard says:

      Presumably it would. But against that must be weighed the effects on the remainder of eligible voters who are now being told that we are “owned” by England and that we are a self-evident colonial possession that is supposedly “not a colony”. No more “Proud Scots But”.

      Once a tipping point is reached, there’s only a quarter who will stick with the Union regardless, and that isn’t politically sustainable. Look for example at the recent Believe in Scotland poll which reveals that 60% of Scots already believe the Union will be over within 5-10 years, and only the persistent retrograde ~25% refuse to contemplate the inevitable.

  17. Hamish100 says:

    I believe so. Still a 16 ur old today will be able to vote in the next GE.

    I think a GE on balance is the more focussed election. FPP.

    • grizebard says:

      Though the context is undeniably more awkward. Today’s presenter on the News at One of the English Home Service was already attempting a riff on that, an attack based on the fanciful notion that a one-issue manifesto at the next UKGE would be “anti-democratic” {cough} because it would “deny voters a choice on all other matters” (or some such). Thankfully Angus Robertson was on hand to easily dispose of that canard-in-the-making by simply pointing out how many elections the SNP has won of late on those very issues.

      Oh, and I can’t recall the same presenter making the same points about the thrice-unelected current PM.

  18. brianmlucey says:

    So its 2024 and theres an election. Greens, SNP, Alba whomever are pro independence state up front in writing a vote for them is a vote for independence, and if these are a majority and they fill a majority of seats thats a vote for independence.
    This happens.
    Westminster goes “and….so what?”
    What then?
    I mean that happened in 1918 in the UK….thats not a road anyone wants to go down surely?

    • grizebard says:

      You’re surely missing the point. The reason that the SC refused to countenance a Holyrood-instituted referendum was expressly because they were afraid of the power of the result. Even an officially non-binding one. ({ahem} Like Brexit.)

      Unionism is just as afraid of the same result delivered by any other democratic means. As it well should be. But it can’t avoid it for ever. And the longer it allows matters to fester, the worse it will be for it when Nemesis does finally arrive.

      They would have been smarter to take the issue head-on when they still had some chance of winning.

      • brianmlucey says:

        But what if they don’t heed the election result in that regard??
        Where then goes Scottish nationalism

        • Westminster doesn’t need to heed it. We need Scots to have decided that Scotland has voted for indy and that should therefore occur. That’s when the union ends and it can’t be stopped.

          This is why dictators put every effort into stopping people voting (as we are experiencing), or rigging things in their favour. This is because once the people are in agreement for what they want, and satisfied that is the case, there’s no stopping them short of tanks, and even that is just a very costly delaying tactic which fails in the end.

          If we vote yes, even Scots who voted no will demand that be respected, for most people are democrats.

          UDI (if needs be) works perfectly well, and is an internationally accepted means for indy; as the e.g. Belgians. However, you need to convince the world the people of the country in waiting wants that. If the people of the country are themselves satisfied that’s what’s everyone wants, that’s you sorted. It’s why we must focus on the ballot box. That’s how you convince those at home and abroad about what is the settled will.

        • grizebard says:

          Then why are opponents of independence so visibly desperate to stop a referendum in the first place? Because they are political realists, and very evidently recognise, even if you apparently refuse to, that a successful public demonstration of the popular will for independence is unstoppable.

          Once any government loses the consent – however reluctant and implicit – of the governed, it’s toast. That’s a universal political truth.

  19. Don’t worry folks, lots of countries have been through this. The sun used to never set on the huge number of countries that England / Britain kept telling ‘couldn’t have independence without it’s permission’. All gone now. Never once worked.

    Just us, N. Ireland and Wales now as the last stragglers. Britain must be up there with one of the greatest failures as a state in the history of the world if we go by the number of countries that have chosen to exit its inept rule. Talk aboot not being liked!

    English / British government is currently displaying the kind of, erm, ‘bravery’* that massive, powerful Russia showed when it invaded wee Ukraine. Lions? I think not. Mice have more backbone. Can mibbie fight the Chagos islands’ ‘few Tarzans’, but that’s about the biggest army it can handle.

    How humiliating it must be for the world to see the only reason the UK exists now is because England’s too scared of letting Scots vote. How the mighty empire has fallen. Now a wee, isolated, parochial, inward looking, scared of ‘furriners’, economically failing, tin pot dictatorship in the making, that half the people+ in the second country of its union don’t want to be in anymore.

    Anyhow, face paint oan, claymores (flegs and banners these days) oot, taps aff and charge them. They’ll turn tail and run like always. 😉

    We used to march for fun. It’s gloves off now. The civil rights of our people and the democracy of our country are at stake.


    *Cowardice that is

    • grizebard says:

      …the only reason the UK exists now is because England’s too scared of letting Scots vote

      There it is in a nutshell. They’re feart.

  20. Welsh_Siôn says:

    I know there’s this news about some court case in the SC today.

    But, in case this slips under your radar at the same time, it may be of interest to some of you here.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/23/revealed-tory-peer-michelle-mone-secretly-received-29m-from-vip-lane-ppe-firm

    Revealed: Tory peer Michelle Mone secretly received £29m from ‘VIP lane’ PPE firm

    Documents suggest husband passed on money from PPE Medpro, which secured £200m contracts after Mone lobbied ministers

    David Conn

    Wed 23 Nov 2022 18.03 GMT

    The Conservative peer Michelle Mone and her children secretly received £29m originating from the profits of a PPE business that was awarded large government contracts after she recommended it to ministers, documents seen by the Guardian indicate.

    Lady Mone’s support helped the company, PPE Medpro, secure a place in a “VIP lane” the government used during the coronavirus pandemic to prioritise companies that had political connections. It then secured contracts worth more than £200m.

    Documents seen by the Guardian indicate tens of millions of pounds of PPE Medpro’s profits were later transferred to a secret offshore trust of which Mone and her adult children were the beneficiaries.

    […]

  21. Aye. Can’t be stopped if folk want it.

    Fae Andrew Tickell.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20221123183124/https://www.thenational.scot/news/23145781.no-magic-legal-bullet-win-stop-independence/

    There’s no magic legal bullet to win, or stop, independence

    …The only way for Scotland to become an independent country is if a majority of people living here want it to become one and will engage politically to make it so. One potential benefit of this discussion in the wake of Wednesday’s judgment is that there will inevitably be a return to politics in terms of the independence question.

  22. Sturgeon addresses pro-democracy supporters outside Holyrood following today’s court judgement.

    The Arab, sorry celtic spring begins.

    National article:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20221123184026/https://www.thenational.scot/news/23145698.nicola-sturgeon-takes-stage-address-indy-rally-edinburgh/

    ‘…She said: “Today our independence movement also becomes Scotland’s democracy movement.”’

    • Capella says:

      Brilliant! Thx for posting. 🙂

    • Alex Clark says:

      Great speech to get things started after the massive gaffe by the Supreme Court.

      If Westminster and the Unionist parties and supporters see this a s a great victory today then they are in for a rude awakening if the vox pop of those interviewed and reported on by the BBC in Scotland is anything to go by.

      All except one said that Scots should have the right to choose their own future, the sole naysayer was not from Scotland and wanted the whole UK to have a say which is her choice but it has very little support if any.

      The Tories have kicked the ball into the back of their own net once again, and they won’t come back from this own goal. Scotland will be Independent and we do not need the permission of England’s Tory MPs to state our right to say so.

      • grizebard says:

        It’s a fundamental principle of the right to self-determination that it doesn’t depend on the views of the oppressor, and (for obvious reasons) nor should it ever be. So some people are just plumb ignorant. One of the 25% retrogrades, one suspects, feeling the chilly (for them) wind of change.

  23. James Mills says:

    The ‘Americans’ , the Indians , the Irish , the Kenyans etc… were all refused independence by the British .
    Eventually independence for these peoples was achieved .
    How ?
    Surely the English /British Government does not want to go down that dark road again !
    Will they learn from their past mistakes ?

  24. Alex Clark says:

    Massive result in a CH 4 opinion poll carried out after the Supreme Court announcement.

    If I got this right 50% of the 1006 people asked said they would vote SNP if a General Election was a de-facto referendum on Independence with 33% saying NO and 16% don’t know.

    The reason I am saying “if I got this right” is in revealing the results of the poll the presenter opened by saying “of that 1006 people 412 support the SNP and they say..”

    I really can’t believe that only 50% of SNP supporters said they would vote for the SNP in a de-facto referendum so I think it was 50% of all those asked.

    I hope I’m right!

  25. Dr Jim says:

    300 years of being owned by England has contributed a great deal to the defeatist attitude of some in Scotland, because owned we are and they have now stated that fact clearly, and under English law legally in English laws opinion

    The words and meanings of a voluntary union has now been buried, but not only buried for Scotland but Wales and the North of Ireland also unless England deems that one or more of their owned territories is no longer required, and that being the case translates into English dictatorship as they and only they have the legal right to *grant* the beginnings of any democratic process

    Already we hear the calls from England that they should hold a referendum to decide whether to throw Scotland out of the union or keep us, and again spoken without the slightest sense of irony that only the government in England can grant such a thing thus confirming from their own mouths that the UK is indeed a dictatorship by England

    England already has a different voting system that is designed to destroy opposition from any nation with less population than itself, so the *union* never has been equal in representation for any of the other three supposedly great nations of this precious union
    Scotland Wales and the North of Ireland have always been disenfranchised democratically by England, how can one person be considered equal when that equality is based on the size of a population of a different country ? Scotland has one player on the political park while England has ten

    The North of Ireland have an agreement to hold their version of a referendum should their people want one’ and the English government are so terrified of that prospect that they’ve employed the DUP in a holding pattern of disrupting the democratic processes by not allowing the Stormont parliament to convene its elected government once again by use of legalities that they engineered, in their words respecting the peace process, at the same time they know that if the North of Ireland demands such a vote the rest of the world will stand with them, because that’s the real interpretation of democracy as understood by everyone else but England

    It’s time now for our European allies to intervene on the side of Scotland, they know the situation and are abreast of all the issues, and we in Scotland also know that they happen to agree with us or we would not be seeing visible support taking place outside the parliament in Brussels and other seats of governments in Germany France and other places this very day
    These are things the controlled media in Scotland still refuse to report such is their allegiance to the government in England

    If the TV media in Scotland reported the truth and the facts instead of their continual muddying of the waters by pretending to be unbiased by showing stupid vox pop interviews that reflect what they’d call balanced reporting that is as we all know not balanced Scotland would be on the road to independence now

    Over 60 countries have rid themselves of England control, Scotland is just another one to do the same but with a couple of differences, 1. Scotland is already potentially one of the wealthiest countries in Europe and 2. that’s why England is stamping its feet in denial, we have from a starting point very much more than many of the countries who previously left English dictatorship, and remember it is English dictatorship, they’ve just legally ordered it so

    I heard a man on the news state “Scotland cannae afford tae be independent, we hivnae got the money” if he thinks that then shouldn’t that be his reason to leave a country that keeps Scotland poor while England has more £billionaires per square foot than any country in the world

  26. Alex Clark says:

    Someone in the media who actually gets the significance of today’s ruling is James O’Brien

  27. jfngw says:

    One of the judges declared they could not allow a referendum as this it would erase the legitimacy of the UK parliament to rule Scotland. This would also be the case if we collapsed the Scottish Parliament and held a vote on independence, it matters not a jot what the other parties want to campaign on.

    The advantage of a Holyrood election is it’s purely a Scottish ran event, it has a wider franchise, we can exclude all Westminster input and it can’t be used by the unionist to obscure the decision by arguing about who is in Downing Street. The media will try and limit the independence movement exposure in a general election, it will be all about England.

  28. Dr Jim says:

    The Monster raving loony party, UKIP

    Just two parties that have stood on single issue politics in England’s dictatorship of their union, there are more

    Don’t let any media lackey or imperialist try to con you into believing you can’t stand for the parliament of England on one issue

    When the Greens first stood for parliament what did they campaign on? SAVING THE PLANET! that’s all the issues in one right there

    • Alex Clark says:

      The Tories stood on a single issue in the 2019 General Election and that was “get Brexit done!”.

      So says Robert Peston and I find in this case that I’m in agreement with him.

  29. P J O'Kane says:

    Unity is key. ALL the indy parties need to be included in the FMs future steps.

  30. jfngw says:

    Knight of the Realm, millionaire and leader socialist Labour party, in the past this statement would be seen a some sort of satire, has stated.

    “It is for those who want to break up the United Kingdom to set out how they propose to do so”.

    We have the next election and every election will be a referendum on independence from now on, for me anyway. Just imagine if they had given a referendum it would have been settled for years, now it will be at least twice every five years (could be more given Westminster stability).

    • grizebard says:

      Starmer, he’s becoming a self-parody of non-democracy. He may struggle to win a mandate in England, but he doesn’t even have a shred of one in Scotland. As for his twelfth-rate lackey here, on C4 tonight he bravely pursued his party’s political death spiral, once again reverting to that other last refuge of the clueless scoundrel, Mitigation Hell. The worse things get, the more we have to stick with his desperately failing Union.

      Aye, things will just escalate, and keep on escalating until enough young Scots get the franchise and finally do what should have been done a long time ago. For everyone’s sake.

    • ‘It is for our Scotch serfs in the northern colony to propose how they might free themselves!’

      …[Jerusalem followed by Land of hope and glory plays]…

      This is real hearts and minds stuff.

  31. JP58 says:

    An aside and observation:
    The 2014 independence and 2016 Brexit referendum’s were both won not only by relatively narrow margins but by older voters.
    This has inevitably meant that these outcomes are going to be challenged as due to demographics.
    If Yes and Remain, backed by younger voters, had won I think both issues would have been settled.

  32. Welsh_Siôn says:

    You are invited by Nicola Sturgeon to place this in your window. (1 page, .pdf)

    https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/17xsLe4LImlLg9ggX7ZEhmA4uLho4KhvG

  33. Martin Edmunds says:

    Today the UK supreme court simply confirmed that the so far as the so called ‘union’ is concerned the country of Scotland doesn’t exist, it is simply a region of greater England … only consent from MPs elected by English voters can now allow Scotland to even ask the question about our place in this ‘union’ and what MPs elected by the people of Scotland have to say about it is utterly inconsequential.

    We are a colony in all but name and I defy anybody to argue the point.

    • Skintybroko says:

      Spot on, Britain is a fallacy it is all England as we Scots have known for years and now an English court has confirmed it. We have faux democracy in the devolved nations always to be overruled by our English overlords. There is no Britain.Westminster is an English parliament.

    • jfngw says:

      It’s about time we stopped referring to it as a union, it obviously is no such thing. It is the Kingdom of England and its colonial regions. I use regions as the Supreme Court has more or less told us we are not really a country but a dependency reliant on the largesse of English MP’s.

  34. Ken says:

    The Tories blocked Devolution for twenty years. The Tories will be gone within two years. Scotland could hold the balance of power. Changes likely to happen.with a bit more power.

    • grizebard says:

      Depending on the now highly-unstable Westminster system for a glimmer of influence is a fool’s errand. Not least because Labour’s “saviour” Starmer is firmly assuring his English electorate that he won’t do any deals with the SNP even if the latter were in the position of holding the balance of power. He would rather go under, it seems, and forget all about his divine mission to save “the country” from disaster, than abandon his support for the WM Tory-Labour Cartel. Just two cheeks of the same miserable ars.. derrière…

      • Golfnut says:

        I see the gloom fest continues.
        The good news is that Scotland’s legal position in the union is exactly the same as it was yesterday, an equal partner.
        Add to that the successful ditching of the referendum route out of this union which to be honest was like trying to swim with lead weights tied to our feet.
        Another great plus is the useless ‘ should Scotland be an independent country ‘ question will be ditched because when we vote it will be authorise the SG to withdraw from the union.
        Finally, westminster knows of no law which prevents a country withdrawing from a Treaty if they wish to do so.
        That’s probably the only honest and accurate statement made by uk government ministers and MP’s over the last 6 yrs.

        • grizebard says:

          I don’t think we’re anywhere near UDI yet, and unless things change considerably in the meantime both in the amount and nature of public support, change sufficient to be recognised and accepted internationally, the next available vote won’t be on anything like your preferred terms. That’s not “gloom”, it’s just political reality.

          • Golfnut says:

            Just where did I suggest UDI? Withdrawing from a treaty doesn’t constitute UDI. Westminster will concentrate on voter suppression grizebard and we have already had various examples posted here already of how they intend to accomplish that, being negative helps them not us. I have just had an email from Nicola, straight to the point and upbeat going forward. We need to mirror that because that next vote might be sooner than we think.
            Good to see you posting again.

  35. jfngw says:

    BBC Newsnight has Edinburgh University Professor on telling us that their is no route for Scottish independence no matter how we vote, the decision is purely under England’s control (he said UK but the UK is basically England).

    What he is in effect saying their is no democratic route (peaceful) route for Scotland, he didn’t really even seem to consider it a country.

    • grizebard says:

      Was that Mitchell (James), perchance? He of Public Policy and the Centre on Constitutional (non-)Change…?

      • jfngw says:

        I think his name was Kierney. He also stated areas can’t leave nations, which seems a bit weird as the UK has agreed NI can leave if the people choose to.

        He had the feel of a British Nationalist and just spouted the outcome he believed rather than what has happened around the world. The overall feel of the Newsnight piece was we should just give up and the SNP should disband, they seem to think independence belongs to the SNP solely.

        From my experience bullshitters will deliver their analysis with great self confidence in the belief nobody will deem to contradict their arrogance. He displayed this when stating even a massive majority could just be ignored.

        • jfngw says:

          Sorry it’s Tierney

          • grizebard says:

            Ah, another of the Constitutionalists, and though not really one of the more doubtful sort I anticipated yesterday, seems to have his finger in a lot of UK advisory pies. The kind of academic that has long let Scotland down, but then he is a Londoner born and bred, so part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

            • Stephen Tierney appears to have set up the ‘Edinburgh Centre for Constitutional Law’ in Edinburgh University according to Wiki.
              Here is the list of members from their own site:-
              The Centre has a wide membership within the University of Edinburgh and beyond. Our core members are the following:

              Dr Asanga Welikala, Director

              Dr Elisenda Casanas Adam, Associate Director

              Dr Tom Gerald Daly, Associate Director

              Professor Stephen Tierney, Founder Director

              Mr Peter Reid, Centre Secretary

              Mr Pravar Petkar, Centre Secretary

              Professor Neil Walker

              Professor Christine Bell

              Mr Navraj Singh Ghaleigh

              Dr Cormac Mac Amhlaigh

              Dr Harshan Kumarasingham

              Dr Kathryn Nash

              Dr Sanja Badanjak

              Abunch of legal eagles telling the rest of us what’s a nation, or an ‘area. or a territory, or a region, of the UK?
              I wonder where they get the money to run this cosy wee Edinburgh branch of the Scotia Nostra splinter group?
              From us? From ‘donations’?
              Well, Newsnight was in full throttle.
              Kirsty Wark in Edinburgh, her wee section stacked with Unionists, and Professor Stephen Tierney opened the Ha Ha Ha celebration by declaring to the English audience that Scotland is an area of England, and that’s it, the Englisssh SC has decided, we are stuck, no matter how many of us vote for Independence.
              Scotland, you are held forever in england’s grasp, is a precis of this man’s fascist declaration.
              Then we had an old favourite, Professor WATP Adam Tomkins…I know, I know..Kirsty was on a high now.
              Then a pre-recorded ‘interview’ with Keith Brown during which Wark tried to peddle the ‘supermajority’ nonsense, then to close, she had dredged up Miles Briggs and Sarah Boyak to troit out the ususal garbage about getting on with the day job, ‘the SNP’ can’t stand in the next UKGE on a single issue ticket, reiterating Prof Tierney’s earlier farcical assertion, that the SNP could not include independence in its manifesto because the SC had just outlawed Scottish Independence.
              Then ‘tomorrow’s headlines…
              Sarah Boyak and Miles Briggs….the voice of Scotland. Red and Blue Tories together.
              Wark even gave the Clunking Fist North Briton Brown’s wee Federal Think Tank a wee plug.

              What a sad perverse warped presentation.
              I am Scotland. I decide, not England, how I shall be governed.
              There are hunners of these ‘professors’ coming out of the woodwork now.
              Check out that list above.
              If Tierney’s the ‘founder’, we can assume that the rest are on the same Brit right wing page?
              The Scotia Nostra..and I’m paying their wages.

              • Golfnut says:

                Interesting Jack that at Edinburgh University we have a body of people come together to represent, promote, possibly even teach UK/ English Constitutional law to the detriment of our own. We probably pay for the privilege.

                • The Jock Elite’s Legal Team.
                  That’s why Robber Barons and the ‘Parcel of Rogues’ Lairds have held on to all that land for 300 years. They can afford the best lawyers.
                  Last night Wark deliberately presented ‘The Scottish Question’ as a small band of nationalists, led by that besom Sturgeon, as a fanatic fringe group, whereas Professors and Labour/ Tory politicians represented the silent majority, the voice of reason and ‘the law’.
                  We are outlaws? I like that.
                  Wark is part of the Elite Scotia Nostra. Remeber her Spanish holidays with Lord Jack McConnell.The BBC is England’s Oligarchy mouthpiece.
                  I am not even angry about the unfolding deluge of Brit lies and threats.
                  Don’t get mad, get even.
                  Sarah Boyak and Miles Briggs are list MSPs, for whom nobody voted. They were handpicked by their pals to get on the Holyrood Gravy Train.
                  They are Nobodies…presented to England Wales and Norn Irn viewers as the voices of authority in Scotland.
                  Indeed they are on to convince the viewers looking in on Scotland that Holyrood really is just a parish council, if these two third rate chancers are typical of the political duds running Scotland.
                  That’s how perverse and devious Wark’s depiction of politics in Scotland is.

                  ‘It’s the law’! Now who said that?

  36. Dr Jim says:

    English voters in Scotland who voted union in the past out of loyalty to what they thought was a UK government should be having a rethink about their position now, they now know that no longer are they living in a country that can effect change within this union, the Supreme court has just told them by living in Scotland they are as meaningless as any other person living here, whether born or immigrant to here

    The notion of breeding Scots out of Scotland has not worked in 315 years, every nationality of people living in Scotland now have been told their votes are worthless, their opinions are worthless, their democracy meaningless

    Scotland’s future can now be decided by a selected PM in England that no country voted for backed up by three political parties in England that Scotland’s people didn’t vote for and all legal under English law

    Of course if you consider yourself British then look for that *country* of Britain on a map and live there, it’s right next door to Narnia turn left at Never Neverland, BTW there’s no *country* called UK either, you were sold the lie and you bought the lie and you’ll still be shelling out for it

    Unless?……………. you know what to do

  37. yesindyref2 says:

    The good thing about it is that it’s a very clear watershed moment.

    Many activists might have known that the Union was not voluntary, well, now everybody knows. 5.4 million of the People of Scotland, 65 million of the UK, 450 million in the EU, and 7 billion in the world.

    Westminster is holding Scotland captive against our will.

    • Luigi says:

      Indeed. Now on record. The union died on 23rd November 2022. Actually it only ever existed in the minds of some, but now it has been laid to rest officially. No longer tolerate anyone telling you they are Scottish unionist. You can be Scottish or British nationalist but you can’t be both. No-one can serve two masters. Of course, the usual suspects (tories) will try to convince you otherwise, but they will now look even more foolish when they try to perpetuate that lie.

  38. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m glad I went to Glasgow, I was there for this moment in history.

    The moment when the UKSC proved UK democracy is dead.

    Good turnout, at one stage down almost to the road, and at the sides, apart from space for people to walk past. It didn’t rain on us.

  39. ross says:

    I think it’s incumbent on all parts of the wider Yes movement to now come together. This is a turning point. We must have unity now.

    This Channel4 poll is incredible and shows what can be achieved with positive energy. I feel energised rather than downtrodden if we can galvanise the movement.

    It’s over to SNP, Greens, Alba, Labour for Indy, Tories even for Indy , Churches, Unions etc. All must be welcome and none of the name calling, no platforming of recent years. We must let by gones be byones and grasp the thistle.

  40. Hamish100 says:

    Remember Poland during the Cold War and “Solidarity” (Solidarnosc) the peoples movement.

    Flags, Stickers, pin badges and posters everywhere. One word, understood by all. They won.
    So we can have Yes!
    Democracy!
    Solidarity!
    Freedom!- I know it was in the movie.

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

  41. Hamish100 says:

    To wee independista in SGP who states “. Sturgeon is a parasite on the independence movement not a leader. “
    Are you a guy from Baathist from England? A normal unionist troll? If neither then I would still suggest no one is going to stand up and fight your corner.
    You should thank SGP for being so patient with you. When I got told to F off from WoS I only questioned the anti snp , anti FM, vote labour / Tory stance. Maybe my question was too subtle.

    If you agree with the unionists you are a unionist.

  42. As pointed out by some above, it is time for a language change.

    Before yesterday, we were principally involved in a heated debate between unionists and independence supporters in Scotland.

    That has completely changed. Now we have an actual external enemy which is attacking both unionist and nationalist. One that is denying the people of country the right to freely vote for the government it desires, while giving that right to its own people.

    Our enemy is the government of England, and all those who support it taking away our right to vote freely.

    As Sturgeon said, we are now a pro-democracy movement just like those that have sprung up in many countries before in peaceful pursuit of civil rights.

    It is not ‘unionists’ that are denying us our vote, it is the English government. Not the British government, as e.g. our own Scots MPs do not take this position, and I suspect Welsh MPs would not either given Drakeford’s stance. We should also not blame ‘English’ people of course, while some unpleasant types there, like here, might cheer the ruling, we are already seeing many who do not speaking out, and we will soon build many allies down there, if simply because they are thinking ‘If they first came for the Scots, when will the come for us?’.

    I note also that the English / British government is no longer our government and should not be talked of like it was legitimate in any way. It rules us, but since we have not given permission for this, it is not our government, but a foreign power forcing its rule upon us. It has no mandate to make laws for us and these should be resisted, including by protest.

    The problem with stopping iref2 is that stopping that stops ends the democratic mandate UK government has to rule us. An independence vote is not needed for that. In effect, the UKSC just made us democratically independent. We are now in a position where England cannot claim the people of Scotland agree to its rule, so it has no democratic basis to make laws for Scotland. Alister Jack is now truthfully our imperial English governor.

    Sunak, you can fix this very quickly. It would be wise to, quickly shutting the Pandora’s box that was just opened.

    • Capella says:

      Only problem with that line is that we all voted for MPs in the last UK election thus endorsing it’s legitimacy. If the next UK election is to be a plebiscite then we all need to vote for SNP MPs in the next UK election.
      Let that be the last UK election we ever fight – and it could be soon.

      • The last election is superseded by what just happened in 2021 and yesterday. In 2019, Scots were of the general understanding that the union was voluntary and voted on that basis. That no longer stands, and we can no longer say the Scots electorate consent to English / Westminster rule, not now they sought an referendum on this and it has been denied.

        I agree however, that voters would need to give a new mandate to our Westminster MPs / Holyrood MSPs for any new, drastic approach, such as an indy plebiscite / SF type withdrawal (for Westminster).

      • Alex Clark says:

        It’s a certainty though that when we do win 50% of the vote in the next General Election and demand the UK begin Independence negotiations they will simply ignore the result and refuse to discuss it.

        It’s about the only thing they can do if they refuse to accept that the UK is finished. That would be the time to withdraw all elected Independence supporting MPs from Westminster to carry on with the fight from Scotland.

        • Golfnut says:

          The notion that that westminster could just ignore a yes vote was dealt with by the SC, in any case we are no longer shackled by that particular body’s opinion, rather we are now in the realms of international law.

  43. Oh, and since before we could just vote, these were just inspiring words from a hero of our country from days gone by when there were no ballot boxes to freely state what government we wished.

    But we are now back there again it seems, so we can quote meaningfully, for it is now true once more:

    “As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours, that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself”.

    We are now part of a pro-democracy movement. Fighting for that and the freedom of our people / country. I personally will never give up until democracy is restored to Scotland.

  44. Capella says:

    Mark McGeoghegan says that Alex Salmond changed the SNP policy on holding a referendum rather than using anelection victory to declare independence. He uses pre SCUK ruling polls to say this is not popular. But this is post SCUK ruling.
    New polls please.

    Nicola Sturgeon wants a de-facto referendum – but what do polls say?

    IN the hours after yesterday’s UK Supreme Court ruling found that Holyrood cannot legislate for a second independence referendum, the First Minister reaffirmed her commitment to treating the next UK General Election as a “de-facto referendum”.

    The idea of treating Westminster elections as votes on Scotland’s place in the Union is, of course, not a new one. It was the old-school electoral strategy of the SNP before Alex Salmond persuaded members to change the party’s policy in 2000 – precisely because the gradualist wing of the party understood that it scared particular voters off.

    Since 2014, Scottish politics has settled into a new normal, in which the SNP’s pro-independence base is much larger than in the decades before the 2014 referendum. It therefore seems to make a certain amount of sense, considering a second referendum being taken off the table, for the SNP to return to their pre-Scottish Parliament electoral strategy.

    https://archive.ph/zUE7o

  45. Naina Tal says:

    Ye’ve had ger democracy. LabTory spokeseejits on GMS all saying it’s a voluntary union because you had your say in 2014. Must be “the line to take”.
    Now: The Supreme Court is a creature of Westminster, put there for just the purpose we saw yesterday. They are at the behest of this Tory Government. This was purely and simply a political decision.
    Their main purpose of course,is to overrule anything coming from Scotland.
    Scotland, having its own legal system, as well as its own wee parliament. Can’t have the Jox overriding the Sovereign Westminster Mother….er of all parliaments can we? What?

  46. Eilidh says:

    Well needless to say I am disgusted by yesterday’s Supreme Court decision but not surprised. The UK is dead the establishment just shot themselves in the foot by that decision. The picture is absolutely clear now
    democracy only exists in England- our grand rulers. One thing useful about that result yesterday is it showed up the closet unionists I know including a colleague who told me the next general election is dangerous for the Snp and NS if it is made a de facto Indy referendum as she won’t vote for them. Her choice at the end of the day. Later I heard her say we shouldn’t be spending 20 million on a referendum and that the Scottish parliament are as bad as Westminster because of the fiasco of the Scottish parliament building ( that was under Labour/Libdem Scottish govt) the Edinburgh trams farce (that was Labour Edinburgh council) she also mentioned Prestwick Airport (which now makes a profit) and of course those bloody ferries had to get a mention. I have my doubts whether she ever voted for an Indy party.I think she reads the Herald so is suitably brainwashed What she didn’t mention is the considerable amount of funding our organisation gets from Scottish govt. If she thinks we would get similar amount from Wastemonster she is delusional. If the next GE is a dedacto referendum and not enough of the electorate vote for Indy supporting parties then Scotland does not deserve Independence. As it stands at the moment democracy in Scotland is truly dead.

    • iusedtobeenglish says:

      “Well needless to say I am disgusted by yesterday’s Supreme Court decision but not surprised. The UK is dead the establishment just shot themselves in the foot by that decision. The picture is absolutely clear now democracy only exists in England- our grand rulers.”
      Indeed. But to be fair, as the FM herself pointed out, the don’t make the laws. The LA asked for clarity and got it. UKgov has framed UK law in such a way that, as Dr Jim says below, nothing that the 3 non-English nations say matters. So this doesn’t just insult Scots – it insults Wales in particular and, to a lesser extent (because they can actually demand a referendum) NI too. None of us is in a voluntary union.

      I think many people have assumed that the UK was the same sort of union as the EU. Now we all know it’s not.
      Do you think there’d be any mileage in comparing and contrasting both UK v EU and (because the yoons have already started using ‘Remainer 2016’ arguments) Indy v Brexit?

  47. Dr Jim says:

    BBC Scotland radio and TV presents the usual and deliberate offerings of what they call the questions around Scottish independence then minimise the historic event that just took place by the Supreme court in telling Scotland we are not a country in a union as though it’s just another day in Nicola Sturgeons obsession with constitutional change

    And there lies the ongoing problem Scotland has with a news organisation that is England owned England run and only employs people who will do as they’re instructed by the management of that corporation
    By their very presence and speech they insult Scotland and our people on a daily basis

    This morning we had the BBC bring on a long time opponent of independence Duncan Hothersall who operates the Labour Hame on behalf of the Labour party
    This man is one of the most insulting twitter and blogger users on the internet and the BBC knows it yet still they allow this man to insult our intelligence by saying it’s easy for the SNP to win elections in Scotland on less than 50% of the vote but that gives them no right asking for a vote on independence
    The BBC asks no questions of that statement such as the most important one they could ever ask, and that is the political parties in England who become the UK government have never in their history received percentages of their vote exceeding that of the SNP yet control the entire UK on less than the SNP, or their current and previous Prime Ministers were never elected by any country of the UK, yet still they allow charlatans like Labours Duncan Hothersall to spout absolute unchallenged nonsense on the radio direct into Scotlands homes

    The Supreme court ruling has 100% told the people of Scotland that no matter what or how they vote England is the UK and Scotland Wales and the North of Ireland are subject to the whims of the voters in England whether we like it or not

    WE ARE NOT IN A UNION

    Yet the BBC and others are reframing this event as “nothing’s changed” without pointing out that the UK of England’s government have just been proven by their own highest court in their land to have been the biggest liars in political history

    England has maintained the fiction of a voluntary union for 315 years on the lie that Scotland can leave if it politically wishes on agreement with their part of the union
    Now in order to maintain their stranglehold on Scotland they’re rewriting the rules as they go along by telling Scotland that England now must decide when or how that political event might take place yet simultaneously denying the means to achieve that outcome

    Now here’s the big important part of all of this, England now slowly admits that Brexit was really bad for everybody but Scotland cannot decide to reverse that bad decision by leaving their union they say, as that would be *even* worse

    ENGLAND MAKES ALL CONSTITUTIONAL DECISONS

    So they’re telling Scotland’s voters that no matter how much or how many Margaret Thatchers, David Cameron’s, Theresa May’s, Liz Trusses Boris Johnsons or Rish Sunaks or Keir Starmers they elect or don’t elect in England every one of them is smarter and more important than Scotland’s people electing their own leaders

    THEY’RE INSULTING US TO OUR FACES AND THE BBC IS ENABLING THEM

  48. Dr Jim says:

    Today the man who is the Conservative party leader in Scotland, Douglas Ross, a man who has a certificate in cow milking will berate the First Minister of Scotland over Scotland’s democratic rights, Nicola Sturgeon a woman who has a law degree and has served in politics for over 30 years and is respected and lauded around the world is forced by constitution to listen to this little pipsqueak squint of a man insisting that despite the UK supreme court ruling Scotland is still in a voluntary union

    This is not the time to be tolerating any more of the milkman Tory or his dentist millionaire mate Anas Sarwar

  49. fionamacinnes says:

    Apologies I have not managed to read all the comments so if this has already been covered please near withme. Standing on a single issue ticket is nothing new, undemocratic or unusual. The Crofters Party of 1885 returned 5 MPs to Westminster to gain land reform. In recent years there has been a plethora of joke candidates but also Martin Bell ( integrity platform as I recall). So do not let unionists deflect a de facto election referendum as in anyway illegal. It will have to be a Westminster election because as the Supreme Court has clarified the devolved Scottish Parliament cannot enact its mandate in the face of a blocking and intransigent WM UK government. this really brings us back to pre-devolution days of Scottish Politics and we should behave as if it is exaclty that – that we have no meaningful democratic power. Scotland cannot wait crossing its fingers for a benign Westminster majority that deigns to enable Scottish democracy. There is no prospect whatsoever of this from Labour. The next UK General Election will need to have prospective MPs stand on a platform of either delivering the full functions of an independent government to the devolved parliament or a timed mandate for WM MPs to negotiate ending Scotland’s participation in the Union and setting up an independent government of those elected MPs until elections could take place along the lines of the current devolved parlaiment. The de fact indy ‘manifesto’ will need to be one which stipulates clear deadlines, because obfuscation will be used to undermine the mandate, ideally have a respected international observer preside over the ‘goodwill’ and ‘integrity ‘ of the negotiating parties, and have a cut-off deadline beyond which unresolved matters fall. Deadlines mean there cannot be deliberate procrastination over such things as ‘share of assets’ and ‘share of debts’. Deadlines focus minds on priorities and getting things hammered out. The de facto referendum manifesto will need to have a business continuity section where all UK functions that MPs currently take part in continue so that those depending on those functions are not disenfranchised. My suggestion would be for a small clear negotiating team of MPs (definitely including Tommy Sheppard), their WM briefs shared among their MP colleagues continuing the WM daily business. I would set an 18 month to 2 year negotiating period and no longer.

  50. Hamish100 says:

    I am sure the great democrats labour, Lib Dems and tories will propose that 16 and 17 years to be allowed to vote at the GE.

    Are the English just happy with their lot with Brexit? The unelected Lords? The bias against the north of England? Immigration, rip of from the banks, energy companies? A 2 party state. It seems they are.

    Are they happy as unionists? ( or are they really just little englanders?) .

    The arrogance and superiority they seem to display over the Irish, Welsh and Scots.

    The attack on foreign people be it French German.

    Is their only friend Ukraine despite their snouts in the trough with Russian oligarchs?

    Cameron/May/Johnson/ Truss /Sunak

    Have they no hope?

  51. Douglas says:

    The ruling yesterday was totally political and can’t be taken seriously…

    There was no reference at all to the ‘event’ of 1707… in effect, the Supreme Court seemed to treat Scotland as if it were, say, a regional parliament…. or a town council… not a historic nation.. one of oldest in Europe!!!

    The fact is, there is no agreement between Constitutional lawyers and experts today on even whether the ‘event’ of 1707 is an international Treaty or an Act (acts) or what its status really is at all, and which of its clauses are ‘entrenched’, that is, which cannot be changed by a UK Parliament subsequently to the ‘event’ of 1707 itself, if any….

    For some, the 1707 document is one of the cornerstones of the British Constitution, for others much less so…for some, its clauses cannot be overruled today… for others, going back to 1707, the Scottish parliament went way beyond what a national parliament is entitled to do under Scotland’s constitutional history by voting out of existence the very national sovereignty which brought it into being!!!!

    As far as I can tell, the ruling made yesterday made no reference to the 1707 event at all… it was all about what was in the Scotland Act…which is hardly the point!!!

    See Colin Kidd’s “Unions and Unionists” about the matter of what exactly the 1707 document amounts to… There is no other document like it as far as I know…

    A political ruling which puts paid to the idea that English democracy is any better than the old fascist judges of Francoist Spain…

  52. iusedtobeenglish says:

    Re the meeja, I noticed that the Torygraph’s started the smearing by saying the “UN says Nicola Sturgeon’s gender reforms” (because, like indy, nobody else in the entire of Scotland wants them) “could ‘open door for violent males’ to abuse women.

    This is a somewhat loose interpretation of (from the article’s text):
    And she added: “Simplifying and fast-tracking the procedure does not necessarily make it fairer or more efficient.”

    Ms Alsalem said she was concerned that violent men could abuse the self-identification process, putting at risk the safety of women.

    “I share the concern that such proposals would potentially open the door for violent males who identify as men to abuse the process of acquiring a gender certificate and the rights that are associated with it,” she wrote.

    “This presents potential risks to the safety of women in all their diversity (including women born female, transwomen, and gender non-conforming women).”

    There’s going to be a lot more of this isn’t there?

    On a brighter note, I see that the same paper has headlines triumphantly declaring that Scotland can’t hold Indyref2 without UK permission. As have several other media sources.

    So at least we don’t have to struggle to get the “we really aren’t equal partners” message across…

    • Legerwood says:

      Violent men do not have to don dresses and shave their legs in order to abuse women nor do they have to show a certificate in order to gain access to so-called safe spaces such as women’s toilets. All they need to do is walk in. There is no one on the door to stop them or to ask to see their certificate. Furthermore the layout and location of toilets in public spaces is such that they aid anyone who intends harm to women. The toilets, Male and female, are usually check by jowl and hidden from public view such that when women go to use them they are out of public view and immediately in an unsafe environment that has nothing to do with trans issues and everything to do with architecture failing to create a safe environment.

      The Equalities Act 2010 also has associated guidelines for women’s refuges and accommodation for trans people.

      • Tatu3 says:

        Exactly. And there are unisex toilets the world over and numbers of attacks on women in these toilets are no different to gender based toilets

  53. Hamish100 says:

    The Great Lie
    We are in a union

    Win🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

  54. Michael Bell says:

    Excellent article!

    Any chance you could write one about Theresa May’s spectacular own-goal response? “Could Nicola Sturgeon FOR ONCE put the people of Scotland first and stop obsessing about independence?” (I’m paraphrasing, but that was it, in essence).

    Leaving aside the rather obvious fact that independence would put the people of Scotland first by constitutional definition (something of which Westminster has neither any real experience nor any manifest understanding), this comes from a former Prime Minister who did everything in her own unconstitutional power to block Scottish access to the Brexit debate. There can surely be few people on the planet less well qualified to talk about putting the people of Scotland first than Theresa May.

    • Dr Jim says:

      The imperialists have to create a figure to demonise and the FM is it
      They must attempt to convince those who live in Scotland that it’s only the Svengali mind controlling Nicola Sturgeon who’s making us all crazy and stupid because they can’t tell the electorate directly that we’re all stupid for voting for her

      It’s not the voters fault, it’s that bad SNP wummin

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