A convincing victory for independence is within our grasp

The opinion poll carried out by IPSOS Mori for STV which was published on Wednesday could not have come at a better time. Just a couple of days after the First Minister announced that campaigning for independence would ratchet up a gear in the New Year and that preparations would get underway later in 2022 for a second independence referendum in 2023, we have an opinion poll showing that support for independence is currently sitting at 55%, the mirror image of the outcome of the 2014 referendum which produced a 55% vote against independence, a result which the BBC at the time described as convincing. Significantly, the lead for yes produced in this poll is greater than the 3% margin of error which is standard in opinion polling. It is perhaps also significant that this is the first telephone poll we have seen in a good while.

This week’s poll is a fantastic and perfectly timed boost to the campaign announced by the First Minister, and ensures that soor faced British nationalists like Douglas Ross will be seen to be only speaking for themselves and the members of a Livingston flute band, and not Scotland as a whole when they claim that Scotland doesn’t want another referendum.

The poll also showed that the SNP’s domination of the Scottish political landscape continues unabated, and indeed is only strengthening, mostly at the expense of Labour and the Conservatives. A seat projection for Holyrood based on this poll would see an increase in SNP and Green representation with the SNP comfortably attaining an outright majority by themselves.

Wednesday’s poll was in fact the second in a week to vindicate the Scottish Government and the First Minister, another recent poll found that 53% in Scotland want a second independence referendum within the term of this Scottish Parliament. Not only do most people in Scotland want another referendum, but even as the campaign proper just starts to begin in earnest, we already have majority support for independence. Right now we are about as far out from the second referendum as we were from the first when Alex Salmond announced in March 2013 that the referendum would be held on 18 September 2014. during that eighteen month period determined and focused campaigning on the part of independence supporters took support for independence from the low 30s percentile to the 45% achieved on the day of the referendum.

We now have another eighteen months in which to repeat some concerted campaigning which will serve to focus minds on the issue of independence and hopefully to repeat the substantial gains in independence support seen in 2013-14, only crucially this time we are starting from a much higher baseline. Even if Wednesday’s poll was an outlier, we now have substantial polling evidence to demonstrate that support for independence is favoured by at least half, and quite possibly more, of the population of Scotland. That is an exceptionally strong position from which to launch a campaign, particularly since the Conservatives have spent the last few years methodically destroying many of the arguments deployed by the Better Together campaign in 2014.

A lot can happen in eighteen months. Nothing should be taken for granted, and it is likely to prove difficult to increase support for independence by the approximate 15% which it increased between 2012/13 and the September 2014 vote. Most people in Scotland have now got at least a passing familiarity with independence arguments, which wasn’t the case before the 2014 vote. The concept of Scottish independence is no longer the novelty that it once was. This is of course potentially an advantage as much as a possible weakness as it means that whether you support it or oppose it, the idea of Scottish independence now has to be taken seriously, which means that more people are likely to give it serious thought and consideration. Only that minority of Scottish opinion which is wedded to the Conservative party will now dismiss it out of hand.

However since the notion of Scottish independence is now very much a mainstream idea in Scottish politics, that means it is likely that those of us campaigning for a yes vote are going to encounter more people who have already made up their minds one way or the other. Yet if we can achieve even one half of the persuasive success achieved between 2012/13 and the first independence referendum, that means that we could potentially win the next referendum with a vote in the high 50s percentile, which the BBC would probably call an indecisive result on the narrowest of margins. It is certainly possible that we could do even better.

One of the most interesting features of opinion polling about Scottish independence is that the percentage which says that they believe independence is going to happen eventually is consistently higher than the percentage which says that they themselves support independence. This can only mean that there is a small but significant body of those who are currently opposed to independence who believe that theirs will go down in history as the losing side. This points to considerable fear and uncertainty on a British nationalist side with low morale and a deep seated lack of conviction in the ability of the British state defeat Scottish independence.

While we must never underestimate the willingness of those who fear their backs are against the wall to fight dirty, the simple fact is that in order to see off Scottish independence as a political force, British nationalists in Scotland must break out of their red white and blue Brexit admiration society, the quandary that the Tories face is that the more they resort to an anti-democratic denial of the mandate for a referendum which the Scottish electorate gave Holyrood in May, the harder it becomes for them to win the support of those in Scotland who do not prioritise a British identity above all other considerations and who are not opposed to Scottish independence under all and any circumstances.

For our part, as independence supporters we need to focus on the prize, and put all our efforts into highlighting the irredeemable dysfunction and corruption of Westminster and reaching out to those who have yet to be persuaded of the case for independence. That is exactly what this blog will be doing over the coming months.  A Yes vote of approaching 60% is within our grasp. We just need the determination and drive to reach for it.

Just to let you know, I am currently going through a phase of what my physiotherapist calls neurological hypersensitivity. Nerves and sensation are starting to reawaken on the left side of my body, however because my brain has had no input from the left for many months and because the relevant parts of the brain suffered damage in the stroke, the brain is interpreting these signals as pain.  It’s uncomfortable and exhausting but it is a sign of progress and therefore is good news.  Hopefully my brain will relearn what these signals really mean and the pain will diminish and I will have meaningful sensation.  However in the meantime it’s causing a lot of fatigue and exhaustion as well as pain, so I will be blogging less frequently until symptoms settle down.

albarevisedMy Gaelic maps of Scotland are still available, a perfect gift for any Gaelic learner or just for anyone who likes maps. The maps cost £15 each plus £7 P&P within the UK. You can order by sending a PayPal payment of £22 to weegingerbook@yahoo.com (Please remember to include the postal address where you want the map sent to).

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194 comments on “A convincing victory for independence is within our grasp

  1. Russell Hamilton says:

    Independence can’t come quick enough.
    I want back to sanity and being within the EU with an international leader in Nicola at our helm.
    Brexit was utter madness, let England have it,

  2. Golfnut says:

    I think a vote of thanks is in order for the sterling endeavours of the liblabtory England based party’s and of course what passes for a media in the UK, for keeping the independence question front and centre in the minds of the Scottish electorate. Without their determined efforts to use any excuse, large or small, to remind us that there was an escape route out of this he’ll hole of a union, we, the people of Scotland may well have forgot all about such rash adventurism.

    From a grateful Seperatist.

  3. Alex Clark says:

    It’s nice to see Yes take a fairly significant lead in the polls after months of being level or slightly behind but just as I never get too disheartened when the polls are going against us I try not to get carried away when we take over and show majority support.

    In saying that, I wouldn’t be surprised if this reflects a genuine change of opinion that reflects the current mess that Johnson and the Westminster government have gotten themselves into over the sleaze accusations and the clownish behaviour of Johnson at the CBI conference.

    When I went out yesterday, I crossed a bridge over the A90 and about half a dozen or so stalwarts were there with their Saltires showing for traffic below in the pouring rain, this determination is what will take us through the hardest part in the last lap.

    • grizebard says:

      Yes, part of it is convincing ourselves that we’re not giving up until we’re in full control of our own future. However hard it is and however long it takes.

      And part of it is convincing London by our resoluteness and ability to rally support that its bluff is busted and the game is well and truly up. And thus better to let go while the letting’s good.

  4. jfngw says:

    One thing that must be clear to everyone now, the claim made by many Westminster politicians that it is at least not corrupt has been well and truly put to bed. The level of sleaze emanating from Westminster has gone up to 11 on the dial. The latest uncovered seems to be using intermediate companies to hide the contracts given to their friends and then hide this under the term ‘commercial confidentiality’.

    Surely all this is adding to the desire to escape from what now looks like one of the most corrupts parliaments in the world. They are effectively using our money to line the pockets of their donors. Is it new, I suspect not, it’s just in the past the only source of information was the MSM and we now know how little we can trust them to report the truth.

  5. Hamish100 says:

    60% is an artificial construct. I am surprised WGD you use it.
    The rules are 50% +1 although the higher the better. 56% is not a No vote.

    • grizebard says:

      Close-reading required, Hamish. You are being over-sensitive. “…high 50s percentile” and “approaching 60%” aren’t preconditions they’re obviously aspirations. And with well more than 60% consistently believing that Scotland will eventually become independent, they aren’t entirely unrealistic, if certainly ambitious. But even a reversal of the previous result will do very nicely thank-you-very-much, and in that event, “decisive” will be easily thrown back in the face of anyone who tries to claim different.

      • Robert Oliphant says:

        I would agree, if we can get polling consistently in the high 50s or even low 60s, it achieves a number of things.
        1 – it demolishes the “nobody wants a referendum/independence, oh look there’s a squirrel” Tory protestations
        2 – it gives us a fair degree of leeway in the ultimate aim of 50% + 1 voter
        3 – in the event that whatever variant of Better Together that emerges finds anything remotely plausible (stop that laughing at the back!) for a Vow Mark 2, it’s got to convince a hell of a lot more undecideds than last time if our potential majority is significant.
        4 – whilst 50% + 1 voter is all that is required, privately we must look to achieve 55%+, lest anyone have any credibility in challenging how “decisive” it is, remind me again what was the “decisive” Brexit vote?

        • keaton says:

          Not sure what the point of all this is. Does your campaigning strategy change in some way if you’re aiming for 60% rather than 50%+1, or 75%, or any other figure?

          • grizebard says:

            Yes and no. Or no and yes. We should go for as much (or as little) of a win as we can get, just as Unionists last time would have been mightily relieved to get any kind of win. A win is a win. Though as Robert says, 55-45 does have a nice symmetry about it that Unionist losers simply can’t gaslight away.

            The obvious qualification though is that in order to win, in campaigning we have to keep very much in mind the thinking of those we still need to win over, not those who are already convinced (one way or the other).

      • Hamish100 says:

        Not sensitive just don’t think we should constrain us to what a independence victory should look like. If we got 90% great but happy if we win at a lower level ie 50% +1

  6. Ian says:

    Great to read about the new poll! I have to agree with you that the result can be much higher. How many people out there who are yes voters, like myself, but have never taken part in a poll of any sort? The number must be huge! So upwards and onwards.

  7. Hamish100 says:

    I see bbc still have a poll embargo. Maybe they are just jealous of STV getting one over them? https://news.stv.tv/politics/support-for-scottish-independence-rises-to-55-stv-poll?top

    I await BBC GMS with interest.

  8. Hamish100 says:

    OT. PS Belated congratulations to both the women and men’s team for winning the recent European Championships.
    If only you played cricket you would be on the television.
    Or become Team GB overnight!

  9. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, from the National article about this poll By Kathleen Nutt:

    It was carried out from November 22-29, as one million pro-independence newspapers by the The National, SNP and Believe in Scotland were delivered to homes across Scotland.

    I got my copy from the SNP guy on 18th November (quite possibly one of the first in Scotland to get one delivered), and this could actually be the trigger for a big change in the poll, as most would maybe have been delivered before even the start date of the fieldwork. But we’ll have to see whether the YES sticks. I thought it was good, a bit bland but safe, and a good minding.

    Anyways, according the St Andrews Day letter the SNP will be working more with the National, and perhaps another 1 million 8 pagers could be funded for, well, say, January putting some meat on another para in that letter.

    Unionists are like “Oh no, we’re doomed we’re a’ doomed I tell ye”. Ho hum. be a winner, vote YES. You know it makes sense.

  10. scottish skier says:

    Should unquestionably be the case.


    ‘Majority of MLAs in favour of united Ireland required to trigger border poll’

  11. scottish skier says:

    While we have been at ‘baseline’ Yes this year, it’s worth remembering that’s where we were in 2012 and 2013 after support fell back from 2011 highs

    In 2014, the wavering – who created the ‘upper bound’ jumped on board. These people are pro-indy, but maybe just a little nervous. However, in 2014, they swallowed hard and went for it. We might imagine they’ll do the same again.

    The latest MORI poll might be just noise, but it could also be a straw in the wind for the beginning of a new upper bound wave.

    Certainly, in terms of averages for 2021, we still have a narrow 50.2% Yes ex DK and we may well reach the end of the year with that. This would be the first time ever that baseline ‘yes tomorrow’ has not retreated below 50% on an ebb cycle.

  12. Dr Jim says:

    Jacob Rees Mogg is very upset that the Labour party in Wales has joined the *separatists*, I thought we Scots were the separatists, now we have Welsh separatists and Northern Irish separatists it seems there are becoming more separatists than Moggy’s mind can cope with in this family of four nations one nation where three out of the four desire to leave the one

    • Statgeek says:

      How long before there’s Northern English separatists too? Heh!

    • Hamish100 says:

      It does show up labour in Scotland who prefer to work with the tories and with the Lib Dem’s hanging on to their coat-tails.

    • JRM is a ‘Remainer’ ?
      ‘The books’, and ‘that’s a turn up for’, springs to mind.
      There is no way that their ‘Union’ can survive.
      They are reduced to turning the ERG Leave argument on its head.
      EU Bad, but, UK good?

      WE are bombarded with a snap of a mildew gyproc panel in a hospital with Jackie Baillie almost tearful, to save the colonial territory of North Briton for their Union.

      There is no going back, no matter the final Indyref 2 count.

      There are very clever people in business, finance, industry, agriculture, education, defence, trade, commerce, and administrative/political branches of government who know that the union is finished, and are already undertaking Impact Analyses in their fields, based on the hypothesis that Scotland, Northern Ireland, and eventually Wales, will very soon now, not be part of England’s mini Empire.

      Similarly, smart EU folk are already looking out maps of Scotland.

      We are there, Duggers.
      Al’s that’s left is splitting the CDs and arguing over custody of Rover.
      Icicles on the bridge, power failures following terrible weather, is all they have left.

    • Welsh_Siôn says:

      We’ve upset Really-Smug, have we?

  13. Statgeek says:

    Not sure about the poll. 3-5 in a row like that to be confident, but at least it’s not 55% / 45% the other way. 😉

    • scottish skier says:

      Well, we have had 2/3 for November showing a move to Yes
      +5% MORI vs May
      +2% Panelbase 12th November vs 26th October
      +0% Yougov 22nd November vs May

      Another one like that might indicate movement from the rather static pattern this year.

  14. James+Mills says:

    A Yes lead in the polls will be bad news for Scotland .

    Hard to imagine but expect even MORE unionist propaganda from the usual sources – the neutral BBC , the ‘independent’ MSM , the ”Scottish ” Labour party , etc…

    Expect to be ‘ Love Bombed ‘ by a plethora of ”Scottish loving” English colonialists most of whom will never darken our shores with their presence .
    Or , more likely , an accentuating of the negative from those who perceive Scotland as an uppity region to the North , full of Rebellious Scots or ”Verminous Scots ” who need to be put in their place .

    Scottish/British patriots such as Neil Oliver ( pause to flick hair over right shoulder while glancing in full length mirror at this young Adonis ) will be withering in their condemnation of these Caledonian attacks on his very existence and heritage and a serious and defiant Neil made it clear that HE would NOT accept a democratic vote for Independence and would continue to profess his Britishness at every opportunity – even if no one was listening to his GB broadcasts .

    BBC Shortbread will be at DEFCON 1 with all its ”journalists” straining every sinew to identify SNPBAAAAAD stories , and will be providing DRoss ,Starwars and Coal-Scuttle with 24-hour access for any flatulent observations they wish to share with the nation .

    Gordo Dinosaur Brown will be released from his embalming chamber and will be promising ”Super-Devo-Max with Knobs On ” AND a New Vow AND an unlimited supply of patronising codswallop if only we would accept that this Son-of-the-Manse knows best what is good for us .

    The Queen will NOT be making it known ( wink , wink ! nudge , nudge ! ) by various unattributed sources close to the throne ( Nicholas Witchell ) that we ( not the Royal We ! )
    should think carefully before we make a decision which may affect adversely us ( the Royal US , meaning I , Lizzie , and my ever-growing band of parasites ).

  15. Tatu3 says:

    Read an article this morning from the Guardian by Martin Kettle. So full of holes, which is to be expected. However the the btl comments fairly made me laugh. Shows just how people living in England just haven’t got a clue as to what Scotland is like. Not a clue.

    • Kettle’s piece is risible,
      The ‘sient majority’ which invents are greater in number than the Hard Nos and Zealot ‘nationalists’ put together. Aye,richt.
      In ceding that Johnson, the Dumbest Fool in Christendom, is poison Up Here, he rather alarmingly argues that Tory ministers are laying low, not upsetting the Jock applecart, and through planned inertia, are weathering the storm that Johnson creates.
      We’ll all ‘see sense’ eventually?
      He is not a fool, but this pusillanimous sophistry is all they’ve got left.

      So, Tory Ministers didn’t put NI up. they didn’t break the triple lock pensions pledge, they didn’t cut the UCS Covid top up of twenty pounds, they aren’t presiding over the energy cap fuel crisis fiasco?
      Cox and Paterson sleaze?
      Hancock’s tongue down his bit on the side’s throat?
      Dominic Raab on his £34,000 for 7 days holiday in Crete on the week Brit Troops retreated from Afghanistan?

      I could go on.

      But Kettle’s doozy is his assertion that Brexit is done and dusted and leaving the EU is no longer an issue in Scotland.
      The blind arrogance of the man.
      There is more drivel in this opinion piece. It is reminiscent of Glenn Campbell’s Unionist propaganda on the EBC web site.

      They really are getting desperate.

      Who paid for the booze at the No 10 illegal Christmas Party last Year?
      Who paid for Johnson’s holiday?

      Kettle has no idea how fired up we are up in the Golden Goose colony.
      He is yet another Brit who thinks he knows what’s good for us, as any imperialist does when addressing the conquered colony.

    • grizebard says:

      I haven’t read Kettle’s latest effort, but the diehard Unionist Labourite exceptionalist is an embarrassment to the paper, a veritable affront to the spirit of C.P. Scott. In his case it isn’t ignorance, it’s blind adherence to endangered political hegemony.

  16. Union Man says:

    Ideologically, I oppose independence. I believe the people of these small islands are better off working together to create the best possible United Kingdom for all of us.

    The continuation of the UK depends upon a Labour revival in England, which I don’t see happening anytime soon. Labour are now looking, at least, semi electable but I don’t see them winning for a long time to come. I’m a centrist and would reluctantly vote for independence, but it would be with a heavy heart.

    YES are not winning me over, rather that the muscular unionism of the Tories is pushing me towards YES. The Tories are ruthless whenever it comes to winning elections and I fully expect them to win again in 2023. The end of the next parliamentary term would mean almost 20 years of Tory rule – I’ve simply had enough.

    I’m not on the left, let alone the far-left and there are some Tory policies I like, if only they were watered down. But overall, I yearn for the return of a moderate Labour government at Westminster and a Lab/Lib Dem coalition at Holyrood – but that is pure fantasy right now.

    I do have some advice for hardcore YES supporters. Do not listen to the fringe element within your movement, as they are toxic to your cause. They are your version of muscular unionists. People who talk about Scotland as a colony or how you can just declare UDI without the express consent of the Scottish electorate are NOT helpful to your cause. There’s no way mainstream Scotland would accept any of this.

    There are groups such as the SSRG who want to declare independence THEN have a vote, but this is dangerous fantasy talk. You cannot declare Scotland independent without first asking the electorate, nor can you declare independence on winning a majority of seats at Westminster. You could win 50 seats but fail to secure 50% of the vote share. Independence declarations must be watertight – Nicola knows this. They talk about changing the franchise so that only “indigenous” Scots can vote and how we can use the Claim of Right or the Treaty of Union to secure independence. This element within your movement will just alienate wavering voters.

    • barpe says:

      Light the blue touchpaper, springs to mind, unionman, …….

    • yesindyref2 says:

      I totally agree with you, and also, having just seen a headline in The National: “Best argument for independence is to look at the state of the Union“, I disagree with that. The Union is AN argument for Independence, but it still needs positive arguments FOR.

      Perhaps my main reason for supporting a YES vote is to remove the Constitutional issue from the priority lists completely, so that we can indeed get back to voting for whichever party we want to represent us in Holyrood, and any individual regardless of party in the Council elections.

      And also that all parties have to have policies that reflect Scotland, rather than having to have a view on Independence – and for all parties to be based in Scotland not the UK. Labour and the Conservatives, and particularly the LibDems, will never get elected in Scotland until they break free of UK party control. The LibDems for instance weren’t too keen on Clegg and his sellout of students for pieces of eight such as a ministerial car. They should have revolted then.

    • Dr Jim says:

      With almost every word you make the case for Scottish Independence

      You hope for a Labour revival, but where? it can only be in England who have the largest population thereby ending up the government of Scotland where no such revival is remotely possible as we vote against Labour for behaving as a Tory B party

      This is a hope felt by some who reject their own country (Scotland) as a country and depend on another (England) governing it without the consent of the former
      We have seen in recent days how the people of Barbados have at long last rejected the last vestiges remaining of their colonised past and what it was subjected to under *English and British* rule, as have almost 100 countries who at one time were subjected to that same rule and theft of their assets that led to them being even poorer than they were in the first place, but they would rather have control of their own destinies in the certain knowledge decisions will be theirs to make and take as opposed to the impositions of a foreign invading power centered on enriching itself at their expense (should America still be under *British* rule?)

      Our next door neghbours in the Republic of Ireland are a prime example as to why self government is a desirable and basic human right even though the UK government pulled every dirty trick in the book to keep them impoverished they succeeded in creating a more prosperous country than any part of the UK except London, and that alone should give anyone reasons to question why London is always the prime concern for any so called UK government

      I hasten to add that is not the City of London as it should always be remembered that there are two Londons and that other London is a whole other story and a whole other government that most folk can’t even begin to comprehend it’s level of wealth

      You may not like the SNP and that’s a personal choice but remember in Scotland you have that choice, with all three of the *British* parties you have no choice because whomsoever England votes for is whomsoever ends up your government not just sometimes but every time

      As to some of the fringe so called Independence parties that you name, these are the outlying parties the same as in every country of the world, England is full of them, we’ve had UKIP, the Brexit party, the BNP, the ENP right on down to the ridiculously funny Monster raving loony party

      Again I would repeat, if England decided to vote for the Monster raving loony party or a monkey on a stick that’s who would be the government of Scotland and there’s not a damn thing we could do about it, you wouldn’t allow your next door neighbour to buy a lawnmower with your money if you had no lawn so why would you allow the country next door to do the same on a macro size

      Scotland is outnumbered 10 to 1 by England meaning no matter whatever Scotland votes for we get what England decides , that’s not equality of democracy, that’s dictatorship and the reason Scotland is among the last of the remaining British colonies but by far the most strategically advantaged and that’s why they make such a fuss about us beggars looking for handouts from the English as they’re never done telling us, yet if we are the burden they say we are. given the capitalist nature of the country who governs us, why haven’t they just discharged us such a long time ago

    • Arthur+Thomson says:

      You’re a true Brit Union Man. Stick with the unionist cause and before you know where you are you might be able to enjoy a new series of Britain at war, in colour, somewhere in the world.

      Scotland’s independence will not hinge on Brits becoming disillusioned. The truth of their uncivilised behaviour and lack of civilised values is being exposed by the internet but deep down these behaviours and values have always been at the core of British ideology – and treasured by them. The notion that the exposure of the uselessness of the various shades of British Tory might shift Brits towards Yes is just disingenuous nonsense.

      Scotland’s independence will come about when when sufficient Scots overcome the fears that have been systematically implanted in them by generations of British propaganda. It is clear now that this position has been reached and the numbers will only increase. The Brits will still be Brits, they just won’t be in the position to Lord it over and exploit their Scottish neighbours.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        I’m guessing you didn’t read where he said:

        I’m … would reluctantly vote for independence, but it would be with a heavy heart.

        YES are not winning me over, rather that the muscular unionism of the Tories is pushing me towards YES. … would mean almost 20 years of Tory rule – I’ve simply had enough.

        Don’t want him to vote YES next time?

        • Union Man says:

          Exactly, my post was about how I WILL vote for independence in the future, but it will be done with much sadness.

          Yet, here I am being attacked for my honesty in admitting that I would vote YES. Many soft YES voters will be in a similar situation as myself.

          We’re hurt at the state of the UK right now. It’s like being in love with your spouse but knowing that divorce is probably the best outcome.

          P.S Barbados and Scotland are different situations. Barbados was a UK colony. In 1966(?) Barbados declared itself independent from the entire UK, including Scotland.

          I thought this site was about helping to convert soft NOs?

          • Dr Jim says:

            There is virtually no difference between Barbados and Scotland inasmuch as the people of Scotland at the time of the so called act of Union never knew such a thing was even happening and when they did the anger was great but too late

            The Act of Union was a deception receipt for payment made by the English crown to the perpetrators, surely you cannot deny the Act was backed up with English military making it a threatened and actual act of violence resulting in Scotland the colony or as referred to today *a territory*

          • yesindyref2 says:

            I thought this site was about helping to convert soft NOs?

            The articles are, it’s one of the best sites for articles and WGD is a good writer – he never forgets that the purpose is to try to achieve Independence.

            Some in the Independence movement forget it’s about achieving Independence, and seem to think that previous NO voters are there to be abused. Don’t worry though you’re not alone. Some of them abuse fellow Indy supporters as well. Any port in a storm! Saves kicking dogs and kids.

            And no, Scotland is NOT a colony, otherwise it would have been identified by the UN Colonization (sic) Committee, and be on this list:


            Both Gibraltar and Falklands had referendums with something like a 98% vote to stay with the UK. Scotland as you know it was just 55.3% NO to 44.7% YES to Independence, with support now round about 50-50.

        • Get up off your knees,man.
          The man’s a troll.

        • Arthur+Thomson says:

          You guess wrong, I read what Union Man wrote. As to how he would vote in a referendum I will never know and I am definitely not fussed. I have ALWAYS known that there are people who are ideologically British and against Scotland’s independence. That such people would set aside their “principles” for expediency is a very British trait.

          As I said above, independence won’t hinge on “converting” Brits and I wouldn’t even try. Achieving independence will rely on people who identify as Scots – new or old – deciding that independence is the future they want regardless of who happens to be in power in the country next door.

    • jfngw says:

      Many countries have become independent without a referendum there wasn’t one to take us into this accursed union, it has never been ratified by the people of Scotland.

      I suspect if this was put in a Westminster election manifesto then as they have accepted total rule on 37% by London based parties (and Tory rule despite them never winning in Scotland since 1955 and rarely before that) the majority would accept the result. It’s hard to argue 48% and more importantly a majority of Scottish seats isn’t a mandate when lower percentages are acceptable elsewhere, you can’t claim FPTP is legitimate in one scenario but not in another just because you disagree with it.

      What you are hinting at to my mind is the ultra unionist within Scotland would not accept it, and I agree but they will not accept a referendum win for Yes either.

      • Union Man says:

        Yes, you can. One is a normal election dealing with everyday matters pertaining to daily governance. The other would be a single issue, plebiscite election on massive constitutional change. You cannot declare independence without carrying the majority of Scots with you. Come on, surely this is basic stuff? Pete Wishart gets pelters for this but he’s right.

        Nicola Sturgeon is a very intelligent politican. She knows that she MUST carry the majority of Scots with her when declaring independence.

        P.S I only used the name ‘Union Man’ so that people would remember me. My first post on here was to challenge and debate Paul, yet over time, his posts have helped to convert me.

        • uno mas says:

          Union Man
          For someone who has just appeared on this blog you seem to have a lot to say and a lot of time to say it.

          • yesindyref2 says:


            Isn’t that what a campaign is supposed to be about? Meaningful debate? The hope of increasing the YES vote so next Indy Ref is a YES, and Scotland becomes Independent?

        • jfngw says:

          Having a plebiscite election for Westminster is fairly easy as there is no chance of the SNP forming a government there, you could argue in that sense every Westminster election is a plebiscite as you are not voting on any policies they can implement UK wide.

          What I was contesting is you could indicate a majority of seats will result in the assumption of independence with a confirming referendum, this has happened elsewhere so is not just fantasy talk when it has been used in the past. The majority of MP’s was once an acceptance of that situation (not the referendum afterwards), this view was only altered once it was realised the SNP achieved this, obviously clouded by having Holyrood.

          It is not me that instigated the parliamentary majority idea where the current government has 100% control with less than 45% of the vote. Surely you can’t argue the Tory government have this right on 43.6% of the vote but the SNP is illegitimate on 45%, it’s how we are currently governed. In effect the party which received 25.1% in Scotland overrules the party which received 45%.

          What happens is once the barrier is being approached then the rules are changed, the most recent is to implant the idea that more than 50% is not enough, it needs to be 60%, but when that is approached then it will become an even higher number (2/3rd is sometimes mooted).

          I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong on this just I’m never keen to get stuck in procedural rules, when circumstances change then you need flexibility.

      • keaton says:

        jfngw, so you support FPTP? The SNP (and I’d guess most independence supporters) oppose it, and rightly so.

        • jfngw says:

          I haven’t said I support anything I have merely stated how Westminster works, and if it is legitimate for them to use the system to their advantage then we are putting ourselves at a disadvantage by being not using it to ours, I’m not interested in being the noble loser. If we stick to the idea Westminster system can always overrule us then we might as well give up.

    • grizebard says:

      ” I believe the people of these small islands are better off working together to create the best possible United Kingdom for all of us.”

      Hold it right there. While you are perfectly entitled to your belief, this particular one of yours resides very firmly in the realm of fantasy. If working together were able to do what you very reasonably wish for, the Union wouldn’t be in the parlous condition it now finds itself in. Because a considerable majority of Scots realise in their heart of hearts that England looks after itself and itself alone, and has no interest whatever in accommodating Scotland’s vital interests. This isn’t mere empty rhetoric. Time after time Scottish interests have been trashed to protect England’s, the most recent case being the exclusion of the “shovel-ready” Peterhead carbon-capture scheme in favour of two in England. Where the most votes by far are. This isn’t fair-dealing, and it isn’t the only example by far. And it’s never going to change.

      Furthermore, the English political system is chronically incapable of even modest reform. The continuing existence of The Great House of the People (Ermine Division) under successive governments, including your own party, is merely one example of this. The Labour Party isn’t even capable of standing heart and soul behind fundamental reform of the UK electoral system that delivers government after government to the Tory Party on little more than one-third of the popular vote. How can that be any realistic basis for your hopes?

      It really is time to wake up from this well-meaning but fatally-flawed pipe dream of yours, just as more and more others have already done. Get real. The Union is dying through its own obvious inability to fulfil the ambitions of people like yourself. If allowed to continue, it will only frustrate the reasonable hopes and wishes of yet another generation of young people in Scotland, just as it has done for all the previous ones like ours.

      Give it up, and look reality full in the face. “Whistling Dixie” to yourself won’t get you anywhere. Focus your reasonable hopes instead on what we can and will achieve far better on our own account.

    • Oh,look, a squirrel.

      • grizebard says:

        Well, maybe, Jack. But however genuine or insincere, it’s winning over people who think like that which will deliver the result we need and want. We need to think like them, not like our very assured selves, and address concerns that will in any case be played upon relentlessly by Bitter Together Mk.2. Maybe our visitor genuinely has those concerns, or maybe he is trying to see how ready we are to assuage them. Either way, we do need to show we are ready.

        • yesindyref2 says:


        • If it walks like a squirrel…
          This is the usual up the garden path nonsense, designed to veer us from the path towards independence.
          ‘Union Man’, hiding in plain sight, is one of many occasional visitors, on here demanding that we provide answers to all the usual hypothetical ‘barriers’, a self confessed Brit Scot, with an underlying absolute embedded in his ramblings, that it is we Scots who have to convince ‘soft NOs’ (like him?), but the Brits like Dross and company get a free ride, backed by a vast Propaganda Machine which will churn out lies, threats, and plot downright naked sedition without question and with impunity.
          This troll is a self confessed unionist who enjoyed Mags Curran and Douglas Alexander holding our country fast in subjugation to England.
          Check out how his initial post spawns subsequent ‘Yes But’ supplementals.
          A squirrel, is a squirrel, is a squirrel.
          Our best form of defence is attack.
          Ian Murray lied that rUK will not pay my state pension post Independence.
          What do soft No pensioners make of that?
          ‘Union Man’ is a fan of Ian Murray.

          I will not entertain anyone approaching me and demanding that I convince them to vote YES by laying out the irrefutable truths before them.
          If people are willing to starve and ie prematurely for Mother England, nothing will convince them otherwise.
          ‘Uion Man’ is a troll. a fly at the picnic.

          • yesindyref2 says:


            Let’s not bother trying to convince people to vote YES next time then. We can all strut our stuff around shouting once more with pride:

            We are the 45!

            Well, personally speaking I want to be part of the 74.3% YES like for Devolution back in 1997, but like others, would settle for 50% + 1.

            But not 45%, that’s for losers. Are you a loser?

            • Are you an Albaman winner, yesindyref2?

              The troll is a English Labour Man, a unionist, better together with Salmond and Sillars.
              I cannot imagine the scenario where I would do a presentation to the unconvinced.. let them look at what’s happening in their daily lives…
              Heat or Eat Food Banks Trident
              London is destroying England, and Scotland can’t even vote them out.

          • JoMax says:

            I’ve said it before, Jack, but I do not think people should vote YES solely on the grounds of hating the WM Tories. In my book, that’s not a proper excuse and could be detrimental to our cause. They should have one reason and one reason only – a passionate desire for Scotland to regain the status of nation in her own right. Upon independence, folk can vote for whoever they like, but it should be for Parties that are genuinely focussed on making independence work and NOT allowing themselves to be bullied and conned into all sorts of ‘dodgy deals’ with England’s Westminster which would only be detrimental to our future. Frankly, if some people think that by ditching WM control they can then look forward to some form of glorious Labour dawn in Scotland, we should be very worried given the talentless crop they have these days and their devotion to WM Labour. That would not change upon independence. In my opinion, a Scottish left of centre Party should dump the Labour label anyway. It’s too Victorian.

            Union Man may be genuine enough, we don’t know, but his undoubted loyalty to WM Labour makes me wonder.

            • I do not ‘hate’, JoMax.
              I am incandescent with rage that our country is being looted by England, aided and abetted by a Jock Elite, who are the true enemy of the people.
              Tis ‘elite’ includes the Jock Labour Lords, the Robber Barons who sold our country to England 300 years ago, and to this day, hold vast tracts of our land in fiefdoms , their rewards for consigning the Scottish people to subjugation and decline since 1707.

              We are isolated from Europe because 17 million or so mainly English xenophobes voted to leave the EU.
              Our country is enclosed in barbed wire, and we have to ask Priti Patel’s Homeland’ Securrity ‘permission’ to even travel t Spain on holiday, and even then for only 90 days.

              I have nothing but contempt for Brits now.
              ‘Union Man’ is a troll. Simples.

              55% and counting. That’s today’s news.

              • yesindyref2 says:

                55% and counting. That’s today’s news.

                Counting back down to less than 50% if you persist in attacking anyone who says they are reluctantly thinking of voting YES this time.

                Are you an All for Unity loser Jack?

              • JoMax says:

                Jack, just to be clear, it wasn’t you I was referring to with regard to hating the Tories. It was Union Man. I’m with you all the way and have never doubted your passion. I should have made myself a wee bit clearer. I just don’t trust folk whose only reason for deciding they might vote Yes is because of the Tories. If the Tories weren’t in power in WM, would they happily remain chained to the Union? I suspect so.

                • What gets to me, Jo, is the drip drip embedding in the debate that we who march to Independence are somehow ‘lesser beings’, that we have to convince England, and the Jock elite Up Here of our case; the default being that right, as well as might, is on the Unionist side.
                  The Union is good, and we are divisive, or ungrateful, or, too wee too poor, etc.
                  It is, and always was nonsense,that Scotland is not a sovereign state, held by political construct, in a Union that has no benefit or justification in the 21st Century.
                  I owe no one justification to anyone by demanding my country’s freedom.
                  That we are governed by a foreign government for which we consistently didn’t vote is wrong and immoral.
                  Hatred does not come into it.
                  Sorry for my impatience, but I’ve had it right up to here with trolls and New Labour is Duggers’ clothing.

    • grizebard says:

      As to the fears you expressed, UM, there are some political bampots (to be frank) who have attached themselves to the independence movement just as such people are inclined to carpetbag on any movement with great popular appeal. (Or indeed cling desperately to one with evaporating appeal, as evidently now with Unionism!) That doesn’t mean that they have any significant influence whatever. Some people have also allowed a natural frustration and impatience to get the better of themselves. All of which can indeed be a hindrance not a help. But this will assuredly not affect the well-demonstrated clear and steady approach of Nicola Sturgeon in particular, and the wider yes movement in general, to aim to appeal to the widest possible spectrum of sound opinion and political belief that a far better future awaits under our own management.

      And just think what a relief it will be after a win to return to normal political discourse, and the exercise of social democracy within a system which does not continually endanger it!

    • scottish skier says:

      Thanks for the post. A couple of comments in response from me:

      Ideologically, I oppose independence. I believe the people of these small islands are better off working together to create the best possible United Kingdom for all of us.

      I am a unionist myself, hence wanting indy in the EEA/EU. I strongly believe in unionism, and totally agree countries are better working together, but don’t understand why this should stop at the channel or the Irish border. I’m half Irish, my wife is French, my daughter Scottish-French. I’d like to see Scotland in union with France, Ireland, England….and the rest of the EU. Even a world union one day! However, I don’t think France should e.g. close its parliament for a few seats at the back of Scotland’s one and so forth. As per un covenants on equality of peoples, all countries, no matter how big or small, are equals and should work together that.

      I’m of the opinion that brexit will break the UK, and having lost the last vestiges of the British empire (as all European countries have lost theirs), England will rejoin the EU as England. A fresh start democratically too, with PR etc.

      Do not listen to the fringe element within your movement, as they are toxic to your cause.

      The number of fringe indy supporters is pretty small and they get short shrift from regular yessers. TBH, many of the ‘real indy supporters’ are actually pro-UK trolls, hence them hating sturgeon and being as anti-English as they can to try and tar the movement. They give themselves away too often! But aye, every movement has it’s fringes, and there are some nutter racist unionists too, like Boris Johnson, Alister Jack etc.

      nor can you declare independence on winning a majority of seats at Westminster.

      A majority vote share is needed with the SNP having made clear a vote for them is a vote for UDI indy, and only if Westminster has somehow prevented the standard iref route. This would be totally legit, but is last resort.

      Glad to hear you giving Yes due consideration.

    • scottish skier says:

      They talk about changing the franchise so that only “indigenous” Scots can vote

      To add a bit more…

      Some weirdos on the internet – who might not even be indy supporters – say the above but the Scottish government completely oppose such an approach. It would deny many SNP politicians a vote for a start, my own MSP included.

      But of course it is real UK policy, as used to deny my wife a vote in 2017 for pure ‘blood and soil’ reasons.

      I totally back the Scottish government position of all British citizens and other legal residents of Scotland getting a say, including English folks and French folks like my better half.

      This is a total contrast to the British position in the EU referendum where they deliberately and intentionally excluded EU citizens from having a vote, Mrs SS included. They did so out of a racist attempt to gerrymander the result in favour of leave.

      After denying my wife a vote, the Brits then forced her to go through the fear and humiliation of begging for their permission to stay in her own Scottish home of 20 years, under threat of deportation.

      If people want to know why the UK has a mass emigration problem, it’s this. Mrs SS would be gone too if my job… daughters schooling etc keeps us here for now. After all, we all have EU passports. However, rarely a week goes by when she doesn’t ask about when indy is happening. If it doesn’t happen, it will be very hard for me to justify staying in a UK that doesn’t want her and family here. The leave vote was a vote against her presence in the UK after all.

      Britain has rejected my family. It stripped my wife of a vote, and now says it will do the same to me as I’m Scottish, not British/English (no Section 30).

      I just cannot support that for obvious reasons.

  17. scottish skier says:

    Look at gender and it seems the net swing is from No to Yes for both M & F, topped up by a smaller DK shift to Yes.

    Women remain more pro-Yes, something that’s been the case since brexit, but was the other way around for 2014.

    54(+6)% Yes
    41(-4)% No
    4(-2)% DK

    51(+5)% Yes
    44(-5)% No
    4(-1)% DK

    Yes is also up across the board in terms of age demographics, but with the over 55s still the least pro-indy.

    Certainly, I can’t see anything odd in the tables which might make the result suspicious.

    • Arthur+Thomson says:

      In my view, the fact that the majority of Scottish women back independence is key. Where their women want go, I have no doubt Scottish men will follow.

  18. Golfnut says:

    Dissolution of the Union will occur by repealing the Act of Union, which by the way was a ratification Act to bring the Treaty of Union into law. That’s the mechanics of it, it’s not up to Westminster to legislate on our behalf. 50 + 1 is all that is required to make that legal in Scots law and it’s that legality that the international community will accept. As far as ignoring the far left, the vociferous far left, the far left that represents less than 3% of the electorate, we’ll 97% of Scotland already does.

    • Legerwood says:

      I do not think you can repeal the Acts of Union because the Parliaments that ratified them no longer exist. In ratifying the Acts of Union and thus implementing the Treaty of Union the then Scots Parliament and the English Parliament voted themselves out of existenc which was I believe in accordance with one of the Articles in the Treaty..

      It is the Treaty of Union that will be ended in the event of a vote for Independence.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        Well, there’s this, which is possible:

        The Secretary of State replied: “The union was constituted by a treaty followed by two Acts. If it is now to be dissolved, it would presumably need that at the very least”.(2)


        Anyways, I’m off. This is an opinion poll that at last seems to reverse what seemed to be a backward temporary trend, with a reversal that surprised Lesley Riddoch as she said on STV last night, and me, and yet (elsewhere of course) there seem to be actual genuine Indy supporters doing their best to send it all backwards again. At times I despair, but I will not let it go without a fight – we really are too close now. to allow implosion and self-destruction.

      • Welsh_Siôn says:

        “OUR” so-called Acts of Union in 1535 and 1542 (Laws in Wales Acts) were repealed by Westminster under Schedule 2 of the Welsh Language Act 1993, Legerwood.

        I don’t see why the same can’t be done for your Acts of Union.

        Further, is it not the case that no Parliament can bind its successor?

      • Golfnut says:

        The Scottish Parliament was brought back into existence because the people of Scotland voted it back into existence, there were 2 questions on the ballot paper.There is absolutely no question that the the Scottish Parliament exists as per the will of the people not by the will of westerminster, the 1998 Scotland Act ratified the decision of the people of Scotland, it refers specifically to the Treaty of Union, confirming it is current and extanct. The Treaty was used to define and confirm clauses of the Treaty and was used to confirm reserved powers, remember we were specifically voting for devolution, not dissolution of the union( independence ).
        Scotland isn’t voting for independence, it’s voting to remove consent from Westminster and by so doing enables the Scots Parliament to deal with Westminster on equal terms.
        The Treaty will end when the Scottish Parliament repeals the Act( singlular) of Union and formaly withdraws from the Treaty. It is likely that a second referendum will be required to agree the terms of settlement between the 2 Kingdoms and sanction the withdrawal from the Treaty. What Westminster does within its legal jurisdiction is down to westminster.

        • Legerwood says:

          I think you should read this
          Particularly the sections towards the end.

          The Scotland Act 1998 does contain references to some of the Articles in the Treaty of Union which were ratified in the Acts of Union of the respective Scots and English Parliaments such as those dealing with the monarchy, church, coinage, excise and trade etc. But this Scottish Parliament is a devolved parliament and Constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster. So you open up a legal minefield. Therefore care is required.

          • Golfnut says:

            Thanks legerwood, everything changes the day yes wins, ref my first paragraph. Established legal opinion goes oot the windae because the question is not about who has legal authority but where sovereignty lies, which is why I stated that we’re not voting for Independence, we’re voting on the issue of consent. Day 1 after Yes wins everything changes

            A goodnight to you Legerwood.

            • Legerwood says:

              As I wrote my post in response to your reply to me I realised we were more or less arguing the same thing but coming at it from different angles with the result that I finished a bit abruptly because I knew I was just going to say much the same as you.

  19. jfngw says:

    We need to concentrate on the positive:

    Keeping the NHS out of private hands.
    Keeping Scottish Water under public ownership.
    Scrapping the surcharge for Scottish power generators network connection.
    Review state pensions, should Scotland remain lumbered with one of the lowest pensions in Europe.
    Reconnection with the EU by whatever manner is supported by the population.
    Have a proper constitution rather than the patronage/precedent version run by Westminster.

    I’m sure there are many more, these are just a few that came to my mind. Personally I would throw in scrapping the monarch, we should be past medieval systems in this day and age, but I’m willing to wait on that score (not too long though, I’m no spring chicken).

    The unionist will want to dwell on currency and debt because these are questions which you can produce a negative scenario no matter how you answer it. We need to stay focussed on the positives.

    Finally we need it written into the constitution that Scotland will not under any circumstances cede its people to be effectively under the direct rule of another country ever again, no more acts of treason on the people of Scotland.

  20. Graeme Glass says:

    I am truly encouraged, but not overly so with a 55% poll for YES. My overriding worry is still the media bias in Scotland due to the ownership of our national newspapers by English/Conservative leaning owners. Even “The National” is owned through The Herald by the Times group. Add to this, the BBC and just about any political news or discussion group on terrestial tv, SNP/Independence movement have virtually no mouthpiece to persuade the older voters stuck in the Unionist/Great Britain mindset. Our young adults use social media and are fortunately Independence orientated. The battle is to turn those folks that voted NO in 2014. Crack that and we move to an Independent Scotland, hopefully before I shake off this mortal coil.

  21. Dr Jim says:

    On the question of whichever currency Scotland may or may not use invent or steal from somebody else, is there a country in the world who doesn’t have questions over their currency, currency and its valuation is a guesstimated fabrication of trust and perceived stability based on assets whether real or imagined and the world accepts this system because there is no other, it’s why many smaller countries (some exceedingly more wealthy than the UK) adopt and use the American dollar

    It seems Unionist who make this argument only do it as a scaremongering tactic to employ for the folk who are afraid the money they’ve been using for a long time might be different

    Remember decimalisation, those who were against it used exactly the same panic inducing argument but hey the Tories did it anyway and guess what even if we didn’t like it, and we didn’t, we’re still here using money of some description
    When many of the countries around the world used all sorts of different currency from each other strangely enough we all managed to use it and roam around changing money from one to another so what makes Scotland any different, Ireland next door is different, are we panicking?

    For me it’s always been simple I’m outvoted by the cesspit next door and in modern terms screwed by a ratio of 10 to 1 against and for 60 years ruled by a government my country never voted for and never intends to vote for again, what’s so difficult to understand?

    Half my family are English and live in England and Tory voters all and I believe that’s fine for them in their own country, but given most of them couldn’t write or understand a coherent sentence collectively and only vote in that way because they believe it will rid them of all colours of people not them I am less than a fan of the country of my mothers birth, and that each one of their English votes needs ten votes in Scotland to counteract it’s mathematically impossible for Scotland ever to be democratically equal

    Anyone who argues that devolution in some fantastical way makes up for that deficit no matter how many so called powers are bandied about needs bonked on the head with a blunt heavy object

  22. Hamish100 says:

    BBC web page under politics. Counted 9 negative stories. No mention of yesterday’s poll.

    Who is our viewers watchdog in Scotland? Toothless is putting it mildly. Impartiality is not something they seem to be concerned about.

  23. James Mills says:

    We are told that ‘We’ have to convert No voters ( soft or otherwise ) to Yes in order to gain Independence .
    I don’t really subscribe to this view and may be on my lonesome by holding this line .

    I believe that if you live in Scotland today and have seen the political shenanigans which have emanated from Westminster for the last few decades and STILL support the Union then no arguments from me or Paul or the Archangel Gabriel will sway you to the contrary .

    Yes, there are numerous pluses to Independence as there are minuses to remaining with this Union . You could fill a book ( even a WEE BLUE BOOK ! ) with reason after reason for leaving this increasingly unfair Union – but unless YOU are willing to accept them then it is just so much wasted effort .

    I don’t mean to sound pessimistic or even cynical for I am convinced that Scotland WILL be independent very soon . Why ?

    Look at the situation we as a Yes movement faced in 2013-2014. During the campaign we faced the might of the British Press , UK Broadcasting , the UK Government , the Business world , Royalty ( Shhhh ! Don’t tell anyone ! ) , Barack Obama , the EU ( well , Spain mostly – we were told ! ), and David Bowie – Elvis had left the building so we don’t know his position .

    And what happened ?

    The Yes side grew stronger as the days passed . Despite all the impediments to their campaign the Yes side overcame its lack of support in the Press and in the Broadcast media . People had made their own minds up despite the lack of support from these institutions .

    When defeat for the Union was a distinct possibility in the closing week of the campaign , the British State resorted to its default position when negotiating with a perceived threat – it lied !

    The consequences of The Vow ( and to a lesser extent the EVEL declaration by Cameron ) are now being seen in the near break-up of the Union . They gambled that their broken promises would be forgotten but that hasn’t happened .

    Furthermore , a perceived asset during the campaign , Alex Salmond , has departed and with him some of the Marmite reaction from some voters that he engendered . Nicola Sturgeon in contrast has a far greater appeal to a broader range of voters – hence the constant attacks from the British media and Unionist Parties . They know a threat when they see one !

    So , I am convinced that the case for Independence has been made – not necessarily by us in the Yes movement but through something that cannot be undermined .
    People will , perhaps subconsciously , have been registering what Westminster has been doing these passed few decades , the present undoubted corruption from Johnson’s crew not least .

    As former PM Rab McMillan put it ”Events , dear boy , events !”

    • Dr Jim says:

      I think you’re pretty much right on everything you say James, when the FM is able to devote her full time to the campaign I reckon it’ll be all over bar the shouting, she’s the star attraction, the big kahuna, and when she aims both barrels and starts firing, the enemies of Independence will be dropping left right and centre, including the media, that’ll spark the confidence

    • grizebard says:

      This is about as self-defeating a position as I could possibly imagine. (Actually, beyond what I could ever have imagined.) If you think that winning is merely going to happen by some uncannily propitious turn of events, you’re just asking to lose. Deserving to lose. To simultaneously take the position as well that there’s absolutely no-one left who can possibly be convinced to change from “no” to “yes” by appropriate presentation of the very facts to which you refer, is manifestly self-contradictory. If you were right, we, from Nicola Sturgeon through our amiable host down to the most humble yesser, need do nothing but each pour ourselves a cocktail and sit back to await the inevitable unfolding of history. This is bubble mentality gone totally bonkers. Are you serious?

      Such counsel of complacency at this crucial state of affairs, apparently on the tail of one isolated opinion poll, is positively criminal.

      • James+Mills says:

        I did not say we do nothing but I believe the foundations of independence have been laid – by the actions of the Westminster Governments over several decades .
        People in Scotland , some quicker than others , are seeing this for themselves .
        I am not complacent .
        Perhaps I have more faith in the people of Scotland to see what remaining in this Union will mean in the long term .

        • grizebard says:

          The basics are certainly there for anyone with the time and interest to see them, but not everyone does, and our opponents are masters at obscuration and diversion. The winner of the eventual showdown won’t have left matters for people to have worked out all on their lonesome. We have nigh on 100 years history of the exercise of the black art of mass media propaganda to show that. And (as you well know) most of the media here and now isn’t going to give us anything like a fair break.

          Your closing quote earlier couldn’t be more apposite, but not necessarily in the way you think. Why do you assume that “events” will all work out in our favour, by some kind of benign providence?

          It’s this kind of blithe assumption that history is inevitably with us, and that we have some kind of universally-obvious right on our side, that led too many to getting a very nasty shock back in 2014. So much so that they couldn’t believe that so many other people couldn’t see “the obvious”. (Which led to all sorts of daffy conspiracy theories to “explain”.)

          We just can’t afford this kind of hermetic bubble thinking again. If we win next time, it will be because we won’t have left anything to chance, and we won’t have missed any opportunity to ensure that as many people as possible hear an indy story that has particular resonance with them. (Them, nota bene, not us.)

          • Robert Oliphant says:

            Personally I don’t think for one second that the work is done, it is one opinion poll that gives us some positive momentum.
            We all know within our own families, circle of friends, associates, etc who is open to a genuine discussion on the constitutional future of Scotland.

            Most of the above for me is pretty much irrevocably split already,
            I know many already convinced and will vote yes again,
            I alas know some who despite many lengthy “discussions” over the years aren’t changing my mind and I’m not changing theirs,
            we are friends who have common interests but politics isn’t one,
            they are predominantly supporters of a Glasgow football team who wear Blue!

            However, I reckon there are a handful of No voters last time that from chats we’ve had recently I think may be open to changing that mindset,
            if I’ve got a concrete case to sell to them that isn’t just “do you really think Westminster cares about you?”,
            so I await the flesh on the bones detail that comes out when the starting gun gets fired.

            They are the ones I will concentrate on without badgering,
            if we all do that then 45% can easily become 50%+?

            However, ultimately despite what I’ve just said,
            we the grassroots alone won’t win the day,
            the leader of the campaign will.

            A number of those No’s last time have told me the biggest reason they voted No wasn’t the Vow it was a disastrous “debate” performance by the then frontman,
            arrrogance is a word I heard a lot.

            I don’t think the front of the campaign this time will make the same mistake,
            she’s too savvy for that and she’s got the ear of the public over the last two years,
            they trust her, they might not always agree with her but they’ll give her a fair hearing,
            even if the overwhelming majority of our MSM try to block that message.

            To finish where I started,
            work to do, a lot of work!
            But we are in a better position IMHO than 2014,
            I’m taking nothing for granted but add a genuine sellable case to the current incumbent of Downing St’s, and his cronies, shenanigans and we are heading in the right direction.

          • iusedtobeenglish says:

            “The basics are certainly there for anyone with the time and interest to see them, but not everyone does, and our opponents are masters at obscuration and diversion.

            Sometimes I think people don’t see because they’re – how can I put it? – not used to seeing things differently. It’s not actually lack of time and interest, and not exactly conditioned, but not thinking of other options.

            A small example, I was talking to someone about the food shortages. This person said it was due to the blockages at Dover and,even if we were independent and in the EU that wouldn’t help. There’d be more problems getting our goods through Dover.

            When I said, “Why go through Dover anyway? France is closer to England. But we could ship straight to lots of other countries without touching England. And the Nigg harbour being built for cruise ships would be able to export goods for a start. Denmark’s in the EU and surely at least as quick as driving the length of Britain. Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway’s in EFTA…”

            “Ooooh yes. I’ve never thought of that…”

            This is the sort of change of perspective that will at least get soft Nos thinking.
            As would explaining the difference between currency and money.

            Why do I think this?
            Ex soft Noer, now a definite YESser.
            Now aware of how much I didn’t know I didn’t know and trying in a very small way to pass it on.

    • James Mills says:

      Correction : Harold McMillam !!

  24. Hamish100 says:

    I think we all know we will have to fight to get over the line.

    I do feel things are ratcheting up. Thanks to the Unionists for keep mentioning it!

  25. Statgeek says:

    Beeb moving newer Scottish politics articles out of main page again, when comments are directed at the editors regarding their editing policy. They don’t care for questions one little bit. They ARE quite happy with 90% of their comments trampled by unionists (many who are not Scots, or people living in Scotland).

    So sensitive. So precious. Whatever happened to robust journalism and journalists of mettle, that faced their critics?

    • jfngw says:

      They never existed at the BBC. Many of these BBC journalist are in the top 1% of the earnings bracket (according to the IFS), it’s an industry that overpays many whose only talent is to read an autocue (other manufacturers are available).

      The BBC has already implemented it’s own internal market bill, spot programmes which were once BBC Scotland labelled as now BBC Studios. It’s to ensure they have first dibs on the assets at CQ should we vote for independence.

      They have done it the ‘British’ way, not a sledgehammer, slowly moving control of systems from Scotland to England. Started slowly in the early 90’s with catering and facilities, moved onto technical systems in the 2000’s, now CQ doesn’t even directly feed the TV transmitters, satellites or cable companies (it’s all ran from England now).

  26. Welsh_Siôn says:

    Anyone interested?


    Tory peer Michelle Mone accused of sending racist and abusive message

    • scottish skier says:

      And there’s No. 10’s big covid bashes last xmas.

      While the rest of us were at best shivering either side of a fire basket in the garden with a couple of neighbours, Bozo and Carrie were living it up with a full house.



      Demand for criminal investigation into Downing Street Christmas parties

      OPPOSITION leaders are calling for a criminal investigation into rule-breaking Christmas parties on Downing Street.

      The Daily Mirror revealed earlier this week that the Prime Minister gave a speech at a packed leaving do for a senior aide last November when the UK was in the midst of the second lockdown.

      Members of his No 10 team then held their own festive party days before Christmas, while London was under Tier 3 restrictions.

    • keaton says:

      Seems a bit far-fetched that Michelle would make it through seven words without a spelling mistake.

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      Yes……also a inquiry has been requested re PPE contracts that were won by a company that she allegedly had helped win this £200M government Covid contract through the infamous Tory VIP channel…..

      Also she has a jewellery line with a major TV shopping channel…and she announced last week that she would no longer be presenting , as a guest, her range on this channel…..someone else would be doing that….she wants to enjoy being married, time to enjoy life etc etc

      A coincidence ?………………..she has been a guest on this channel for her range since inception….yet NOW she is taking a back seat…….timing is everything…..bit suspicious to no longer want to be seen as the FACE of your product at a time when things outwith this money earning sideline are starting to look a bit ….dubious ?

      Confucius says…. Never trust a women who in her maiden speech in HOL’s quotes the lyrics of a Whitney Houston song as part of her speech…….

      Just goes to prove that just because you are a female MEMBER of the HOL’s it does not , in effect, actually mean that you are a LADY……..

      • Her ‘midden’ speech, surely.
        Once you clamber aboard the House of Lards Gravy Train, you’re made for life.
        Ask Borin’ us Rape Clause.
        Or the 93 traitors to the cause Socialist Lairds.
        Lord McConnell will never have to look down the back of the sofa for change to pay the electricity bill

  27. Hamish100 says:

    Oh, came across this little memory from 2014.


    Whatever happened to Ruth Davidson ( the next fm), Johann Lamont ( the next fm), Willie Rennie (just another Lib Dem fud) and The Vow?

    Interesting to think that 16 year olds who can vote in 2023 were only 7 years of age when the lies were spoken in 2014. Another generation to be reminded of the unionist hypocrisy.

  28. Dr Jim says:

    In 2014 all the usual Tory suspects insisted there was no oil, they told us on our TVs and in our newspapers night after night it was all running out, now they’re blaming Scotlands FM Nicola Sturgeon for not being able to extract the millions of barrels of oil that are still there

    • jfngw says:

      I hope when we start the dissolve the union campaign the lies verses the reality is part of it, ‘Remember the Promises’, you could fill the eight page newspaper with what was promised, what lies were told, the Scots who lied to keep Scotland under another countries control.

      Just as we remember those who gave their lives for a country, we should remember those who told lies against their country for the benefit of another or for their own advantage. They should have no place in any future planning for the country, they cannot be trusted.

      • grizebard says:

        I agree. While we do have a definite sunny side to persuade people that life can be a whole lot better under our own “hands-on” management, we also have to be willing to destroy the credibility of the opponents of independence, who will once again try to present themselves as the “safe” “status quo” option. But there is now plenty of evidence available to counter that, a trail of casually broken promises that wasn’t available back in ’14. I think we all agree about that solid basis of proof. We just have to be prepared to utilise it to the max when the time comes. Kumbaya on our side is only half the story.

        Let’s just concentrate on winning, though. Afterwards everything will change. We’ll surprise ourselves, and (mostly) in a good way.

        • Robert Oliphant says:

          They’ll no doubt dress it up as something else but “status quo” is gone as a defence/argument,
          Brexit amongst many other broken promises saw to that!

  29. Hamish100 says:


    Last one. I note with some despair from 2014 how the various parts of Scotland voted. The so called unionists wished to split Scotland up in order to keep her people subjugated.
    They still follow the same tactic today.

  30. scottish skier says:

    This is very interesting on the language topic.


    Scotland’s linguistic landscape – Scottish Standard English and Scots

    Do you know your language varieties from your languages? Your dipthongs from your monopthongs? The difference between code-switching and bilingualism?

    Scotland’s linguistic landscape, made up predominantly of the language variety that is Scottish Standard English and the language that is Scots, is a good place to start to get your head around these concepts – which are crucial to understand if seeking localisation or translation services in a Scottish context….

    …Consider also the apocryphal tale of the English textbook used in primary schools that warned pupils to be careful not to confuse the preposition ‘for’ and the numeral ‘four’, as they were homonyms. This may well be the case in the standard English of England, but it greatly confused Scottish children, for whom, although written the same, the two words are highly distinct, with different vowel sounds, and ‘four’ also being disyllabic. (In Scots proper, the two words are even more different: ‘fur’ vs ‘fower’)…

  31. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    Doctors at Glasgow’s QEUH are hitting back at MSPs, with 23 senior clinicians saying “unfounded criticism” of teams there is damaging morale……………

    Sarwar hits a brick wall………again……a wall he constructed but fails to break through…politically.

    Sarwar forgets that his relentless politicised attacks damages the reputations, morale and indeed the credibility of all staff who work within this hospital…….noticed recently he has been trying to backpedal and is now trying to state that the Health Chiefs are “gaslighting” the staff……and that he is NOT criticising the staff per se…..however if your accusation is one of a cover up and a scandal then that has repercussions for everyone who works at this hospital……it also, by association, tends to make ordinary people think that the staff themselves must be complicit in this so called cover up and scandal………indeed it also erodes trust and confidence in the staff for people who use this hospital now and in the future……I think Sarwar and Baillie may have been too eager to promote their political message under the guise of righteous warrior MSP’s…..forgetting or indeed negligent in their duty to take into consideration the fallout for ALL within this hospital……where the reputations and indeed competence of the staff are seemingly also being challenged directly or indirectly by such a clumsy and badly orchestrated political point scoring exercise….another one.

    See words have consequences ……..for everyone.

    It is indeed very sad for the individuals who lost someone but I am wondering why an opposition MSP is using their painful stories so forcefully as a obvious political weapon….as we all know who he is REALLY targeting in this campaign for political gain…..I mean given Sarwar’s track record I give no credibility to his righteous warrior act …for example (sure there must be t’others) when he was an MP he voted with the Tories to cap the level of spending allocated to helping the poorest in our community so he voted with the Tories to put a cap on the amount of money the Government can spend on the welfare budget when Osborne was Chancellor of the Exchequer ……………….indeed he was one of 30 Scottish (in name only) MP’s who did this….Ian Murray , Pamela Nash, Tom Harris, Alistair Darling and Jim Murphy to name but a few….named because we all know what they really SUPPORT…..as if they are conceding that only by being a part of THEIR Union can they crush rebellious socialist ideologies….like say looking after the poorest in society…..funny but not funny how the anti socialist brigade are all Unionists through and through….. with Tom Harris now finally admitting his TRUE Blue credentials…….the rest having to supress theirs…….if it acts like a Tory in it’s voting (or abstaining) record then it probably is, at heart, a Tory.

    Everyone but everyone should have the right to challenge and expect explanations, apologies etc in situations such as this but if , as a genuine and upsetting incident, it is being clouded by a political opposition party obscuring the REAL issue by claiming…actually tis the FM to blame….. then it suddenly becomes just another opposition party political agenda and not a genuine story of families seeking answers on a tragic event.

    Sarwar tweeted this “From start to finish, the Queen Elizabeth Hospital scandal has happened under Nicola Sturgeon’s watch. We will hold her to account”…………

    I rest my case…..as that tweet is THE clear and decisive example of what has driven this so called campaign for justice…….but justice for who ?

    • grizebard says:

      What Sarwar & Co have to offer is essentially “we’re all rubbish, so let’s go back to when we were running things because our rubbish is better rubbish than that usurper’s rubbish”. Let’s go back to when we were the quack doctors of politics, keeping everyone in passive dependence on our non-cures, which we administer partly because we’re incompetent and totally out of ideas and partly because it wouldn’t do for people to get better enough that they wouldn’t need to depend on us any more.

      A litany of despair, a never-ending trough of deliberate disincentivisation, since they have nothing better or more hopeful to offer. No wonder they can’t get elected. They are only surviving at all on the money they get from elsewhere (their own dirty secret of abject dependency) and on the remaining goodwill of decent members who can’t bring themselves to wake up to the unpleasant reality of where their leadership is taking them. (Extinction, basically.) One has to wonder how many more non-leaders they will have to endure before the futility of the never-changing policy finally dawns. If it ever does before it’s too late.

      Meanwhile, society is being harmed by this drip-drip-drip of poison, so readily amplified as it is by their pals in cushy media positions, themselves scared of the Nemesis that likely awaits them as well. That ordinary people are becoming increasingly scunnered by this rampant negativity doesn’t seem to be penetrating, or is getting through but just makes them all the more fearful and desperate.

      When a final reckoning is made of the current crisis, many reputations among these indiscriminately-oppositionalist social menaces are going to take a big hit. They might usefully reflect on that right now.

    • Dr Jim says:

      The day and hour the Hospital was finished, just like the Queensferry bridge the blue red and yellow Tories with the help of the BBC trying to make their made up nickname of *death star* have never stopped doing these accomplishments down

      • Bob Lamont says:

        The coincidence with Labour being dumped by the electorate in Scotland’s 2015 GE might have some connection ?

        • Not-My-Real-Name says:

          Indeed Bob….particularly in the bitterness that has oozed out of both Tom Harris and Pamela Nash ever since 2015….a dumped Labour MP scorned …..well the bitterness and anger felt by both of them has been well and truly acted out since 2015……both acting against Scotland’s best interests…..so well played Scottish citizens.

          The problem with the Labour, Tory and the Lib Dems combined message of public services et al in Scotland being terrible is that not all of the people, by a majority, are experiencing these so called terrible public services or indeed all other contrived issues that are generated for the opposition to try and gain a undeserved political advantage ….indeed a lot of people have the opposite experience …as in a good experience…..or rather the opposite that they, the opposition parties, try to portray as the (false) reality.

          More importantly we also , in Scotland, know what the reality of staying in the Union is……and that is really really really terrible……..look at England under the Tories it’s imploding…….yet DRoss sticks his neck out , post polished with Brasso, to imply somehow that it’s the SNP that are negligent and incompetent. (while he himself as a politician (in name only) is being investigated by the Standards watchdog)…….projection is the refuge for many a chancer like DRoss…….no need to expand on his HQ leader as obvious his many many flaws, faults ….and all the other many negatives that can be and are associated with him.

          As to Sarwar well he is one in a line of many failed leaders of his party at Holyrood and he leads a party that are in freefall , not just in Scotland, but elsewhere in HIS UK….with an HQ leader that is seeking advice from a war criminal who advised him to reject socialism…..yeh cause Labour , as a party , was never ever started to promote socialism….said no one ….until New Labour came along.

          Cole-Hamilton well he now leads a party of 4 MSP’s (which includes him as part of the 4) yet he gives it Billy Big Guns like he matters and somehow should be listened to while all he is doing is leading a mini quartet (including himself) of professional grievance mongers…….AND his HQ leader is being investigated by Standards Watchdog.

          I’ve said it before LOOK who we are up against and then try and not say…is this the Twilight Zone……..it’s a clear cut case from all of them against the SNP where it is :

          Do as I say Not as I do and even when you are NOT doing what I say you are doing I shall still accuse you of doing the very thing that I, and my party , are actually doing while hoping the public believe us and not you…….project projection on steroids courtesy of UK mob….as in party politics Union style.

          Now is the time for an alien invasion…..as personally I am beyond saturation point with the charade being played out just now by Unionist politicians and their sycophants , and to be honest an alien invasion would be a welcome respite……I’d rather have a close encounter with an alien than with a Unionist politician………now that would be a Close encounter of the T*rd kind….for sure.

  32. James Mills says:

    Sarwar is a Sh*t ! An ambulance chasing , political pygmy !
    A man who has had everything handed to him on a plate by his Dad including his political career ! He comes across as every bit as entitled as Johnson and his crew of corrupt placemen .

    The Scottish media have a lot to answer for in his rise to prominence in the ”Scottish Labour ” party and his antics since becoming its nominal leader .

    There has been no scrutiny of his voting patterns as a ”Socialist” , no scrutiny of his private wealth and how he accrues it , no scrutiny of his company’s failure to pay the Living Wage ( a company he now claims to have no part in – having passed his shares to his wife… ), no scrutiny of his deplorable ambulance-chasing antics in a vain attempt to make political capital out of the tragedy of several families losing loved ones .

    He is transparently phoney in his Uriah Heep staged performances in the Scottish Parliament where each time he rises to speak one expects him to wallow in the death of someone’s loved one – then attempt to lay the blame for other’s failings on the FM.

    How any genuine Labour supporter could stomach these ghoulish displays is beyond me . Or perhaps this macabre fixation of Sarwar’s may be the final straw fro many in Scottish Labour ?

    • Welsh_Siôn says:

      Would it not be a good idea to give him a new name?

      “Shroud waver”

      springs to mind.

      A nice echoing of consonants, don’t you think? 😉

  33. scottish skier says:

    SNP taken a seat in the Fort William and Ardnamurchan by-election.

    I note it’s another by-election where Alba have not stood, making them absent in all so far I believe.

    Greens by contrast entered the race and did well based on the below.

    • Malkie says:

      There’s no reason why Alba cannot stand in council elections. One would hope that, even if they came bottom of the poll, their transferred votes would go to the SNP or greens and have absolutely no impact on the outcome of the election. So why are they not standing? No candidates?, no members?, no money? no leadership? Just a tiny handful of people trying to dominate the forum pages of The National by slagging off Nicola and boasting about how powerful they are. Sitting in a tiny echo chamber feeding off each others delusions. Alex was my hero for 33 years, but he has ruined himself.

  34. dakk says:

    Had the misfortune to catch a clip of Sarwar’s British Labour Party manufactured diatribe on the QE hospital today.

    His rabid hatred of Scotland’s FM was palpable and shameful.

    When this vile hipocrite is retired by his London bosses after the next election there will be no diplomatic testimonials for him by his Scottish political counterparts.

    That is, the Greens and SNP.

    He is the most detestable britnat lackey yet imo.

    • grizebard says:

      Shroud-waving Sarwar might not have any purse-string-holding London bosses soon enough. C4 just reporting that Unite the union is pulling funding from the Labour Party to focus on its own priorities, and that Labour are worried that they might not have enough funds to fight the next UKGE, whenever that comes. And yet there are still those in Scotland who fondly imagine that Labour will somehow arise to save the Union. North and south of the border, it looks like it isn’t even able to save itself.

      • dakk says:

        Money will always be found to support the apparatus of the british state.

        Keeping up the appearance of a functioning democracy will ensure funding be forthcoming for Labour’s eventual buggins turn.

        • grizebard says:

          Russian oligarchs for Labour as well as the Tories, eh?! {laugh} Got to keep all that London property tax-sheltering safe!

          As for Labour’s cynical “buggins turn-ism”, maybe an alternative might be needed if it has run out of steam before the opportunity arises to stand up and catch the flak again for years of prior Tory bungling. Which might not be too soon, since far too many English voters still seem to be firmly under BoJo’s evil spell. In any event, if and when it happens, it will be long after Sarwar Jr’s tenure of the Northern Poison Chalice has expired and he has disappeared back to eminently-deserved obscurity.

          • dakk says:


            Whatever guise any “opposition “to the Torys might appear in it may as well be cried buggerers turn as far as we Scots are concerned.

      • Not-My-Real-Name says:

        Yes grizebard……and Sharon Graham also said as the current General Secretary of Unite that she also backs Scotland’s right to choose it’s future……….as any Union who respects the democratic rights of the people would support…………take note GMB……you as a Union are supposed to represent workers rights as a Union…….not act on behalf of another (non) UNION aka the UKnotOK….and collaborate with Unionist politicians….

      • stewartb says:

        “.. Unite the union is pulling funding from the Labour Party ..” Also heard this and pondered its significance here in Scotland. It could prove important.

        Recall that on 25th August this year The National had an article entitled: ‘Sharon Graham: Left-winger who’s open to indyref2 is new Unite general secretary’. It included some notable quotes:

        ‘In an interview with the Herald last month, Graham said it was “ridiculous” for Westminster to stand in the way of a second independence referendum.

        ‘Graham said Scottish self-determination is “absolutely critical” and insisted the trade union’s membership would decide its position on independence.

        ‘She said the trade union’s political decisions relating to Scotland should be devolved to the Scottish membership.

        ‘She said: “For me, self-determination of Scotland is absolutely critical and I support it. The idea that Westminster thinks that they can decide whether or not Scotland is allowed to have a vote on its own course is totally inappropriate. Self-determination has to happen by the people of Scotland in Scotland.

        “I don’t live in Scotland. I don’t have a right to have a view on whether there should be independence or not independence in Scotland.

        “But what I would do as the general secretary of Unite the union, is my members would make that decision.”

        ‘She added: “I think what is ridiculous is that Westminster could even be saying, ‘We are going to tell you if you are allowed to.’

        “I mean, that is just not acceptable. If I was in Scotland and I was listening to that, I would actually be incandescent, frankly.

        “Because how can Westminster tell you, the people of Scotland, what you’re allowed and not allowed to do as far as the referendum is concerned?”

        It is worth remembering that Unite the Union operates across an international boundary, i.e. across the UK AND Ireland! Indeed it seems that on aspects of organisational structure it treats ‘Ireland’ as one entity. So this trade union’s support for workers’ rights and solidarity is not constrained by the boundary of a nation state!

        See https://www.unitetheunion.org/what-we-do/unite-in-your-region/ireland/

        And finally, remember that in October 2019 it was Unite the Union that led the unsuccessful attempt to unseat Labour’s only MP in Scotland, Ian Murray.

        • grizebard says:

          I mean, if you’re a principled left-leaning person as she evidently is, it’s not that hard, actually. “Let the people decide”. It’s absurdly simple, even. Chapeau to her. You can readily see why she is increasingly unwilling to support a bunch of dead-end morons whose only ability is to turn that self-evident simplicity into a complete f***-up.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        Yes, and there’s also this from last year:


        I did search a few weeks back but was unable to find any result of that survey.

  35. Alex Clark says:

    The pressure of the last few weeks might finally be getting to Johnson judging by the size of the bags under his eyes. The poor man cannot be sleeping too well, all his misdemeanors I hope are coming back to haunt him.

    He is right to be worried, things are going to get a good bit worse for the personal finances of the majority of people. In particular, the rising cost of energy and food are going to hit very hard over the coming weeks, stick on top the extra costs families bear at this time of year and it’s clear that many people are going to struggle with paying the bills.

    Hardest hit of all of course will be the least well off, that’s those who are on Universal credit and have had their benefits reduced by up to £85/month, that’s an awful lot of money that could have paid an entire years energy bills that the government have deprived them of at the worst possible time.

    The bags under Johnsons eyes are here to stay, he’s responsible for the mess his party have created,

    • James Mills says:

      Knowing Johnson his ‘bags’ will be by Louis Vuitton , and some anonymous donor will have paid for them !

  36. scottish skier says:

    This is what happens when you tell people to ‘Go back to where you came from!’.


    UK now has ‘record 3.5 million job ads’ ahead of Christmas peak demand

    The number of job vacancies in the UK has hit a new record 3.5 million ahead of the Christmas peak according to a closely-watched report – double the number seen in the summer.

    The Recruitment and Employment Confederation (REC) said there was a particular rise in demand last week for prison officers, scaffolders, dentists and vets as the UK’s labour shortage shows no sign of easing.

    While the latest official data shows a level of 1.3 million vacancies in October, the REC said that the number of active job adverts had risen from almost 1.7 million in the summer.

    This is terrifying. Millions are leaving. The UK faces an unprecedent economic decline.

  37. Dr Jim says:

    I see Labour turned out in force to vote Tory in Fort William and still lost, but the Tories claim their increase is just the beginning of a Tory revival

    Not even a Pentecostal choir and a prayer meeting is going to help them revive

    • JoMax says:

      That reminds me of an election – can’t remember whether a GE or Scottish Parliamentary – while driving in this very rural part of the far north, approaching a village and seeing a huge, long banner in a field with the name in bold letters and the physog of Ruth Davidson urging everyone to vote for ‘Her Party’ because she was going to be the future of Scotland.

      Yeaaaaaah. A PR exercise that went awry or a’ wrang, you might say. Does anyone know whatever happened to her, by the way? Missing inaction.

  38. Alex Clark says:

    What might Sarwar be suggesting here? If he has any idea who is responsible for the vandalism then he should come out and say it.

    • grizebard says:

      Whit? Maybe the same people who painted “SNP” onto gravestones in Shetland at the last byelection there? And not by any genuine supporter of the SNP, we can be certain of that.

      • Alex Clark says:

        Yes, my suspicions too, this kind of carry on is well past its sell by date.

      • Golfnut says:

        Obviously run out of stickers.

      • Dr Jim says:

        Maybe it’s their own supporters declaring their true allegiance, see if they’re going to infer these things are SNP supporter related then that’s another stupid inference for what’s just a nasty person doing a nasty thing, and by making these types of public exhibitions of themselves throwing blame around it begs the question *are they deliberately inviting more of it* with the idea of blaming folk even more

        Daft, just daft

  39. Arthur+Thomson says:

    Sarwar is a spiv, a wide boy, just like Dross and Cole scuttle. They each have that sleekit smug sneer and imagine that they are oh so clever. Truth is that any normally intelligent person can see right through them.

    Who am I to complain? The contrast between their fraudulence and the integrity of Scotland’s FM becomes more obvious as each day passes. The Scots know who they can trust. The Brits don’t know what trust is.

  40. Welsh_Siôn says:

    Idea for a cartoon?

    Side by side:

    Picture of Nicola – underneath: TRUST
    Picture of Johnson – underneath (the initial T is scratched out): RUST

  41. jfngw says:

    I see the Tories and Alba supporters are in lock step gain, their message seems to be ‘Do die of ignorance’.

    • Dr Jim says:

      You couldn’t slip a bank card between the two these days

      If Tory Labour and Lib Dem wasn’t enough to put up with we have this lot who apparently don’t want to stand for or be elected to anything, they just spend their time infesting the internet and comments pages of newspapers slandering lying and attempting to destroy people’s confidence

  42. yesindyref2 says:

    There’s an interesting analysis of that by-election on Scot Goes Pop:


    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    There is a problem here that needs fixed by someone who commands respect from that camp. It’s the actions of Wormtongue who unfortunately has captured the ear of the host, misrepresents postings on this blog and exaggerates them, and unfortunately though the host checked out one single posting which partly supported the misrepresentation, doesn’t read other postings but takes them verbatim from Wormtongue. Where’s Gandalf when you need him to open his eyes?

    Anyways, Wormtongue is being very successful in its fell and dirty work and the nett result is that James’s fundraiser from October is only 2/3rds of its target, whereas before it got support from WGD and those who read it. And that means – no opinion polls, and not one to come soon which might confirm that latest one from IPSOS-MORI – 55% YES stripping out the don’t knows. The one which shook Uniondom to its very wobbly knees.

    And James is right, saying the same as anyone who understands polls as well as he does – one poll on its own is not enough to establish a trend. Yes we can be happy, and his headline does indeed show his pleasure:

    This rips up everything we thought we knew: Ipsos-Mori TELEPHONE poll shows massive majority support for Scottish independence

    Don’t let the Wormtongues do Saruman the White’s work, or should I say, BoJo the Blonde. We need all of the YES movement, there’s work to be done, False flag splitters can FOAD.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      And I doubt Wormtongue will be pointing out THAT posting, as he’s failed all the time to point out good postings about SGP – like mine.

      Wormtongues thrive on ignorance, but The Truth Shall Set Us Free.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        From James Kelly on SGP:

        Have these things actually been said over the last 36 hours, or are you satirising them?

        Good, you’re starting to wonder SGP, if you’re reading this, are you being misled? Well, read for yourself, or just ignore – you’re too trustful which is a good thing in itself but can be abused.

        Specifically, have they been referring to my fundraiser?

        Yes I did James, me and nobody else I think – see above. it’s a shame it’s only at 2/3rds. Hopefully WGD will put a link to it, and others will do the same, and we can get it to your target of £6,500 – and have more polls asking that question, what was it again? Oh yes – how would you vote tomorrow if asked “Should Scotland be an Independent Country?”.

        It’s a big YES from me and thee, and probably a big NO from Wormtongue – if it has the vote at all.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        I would post this all on SGP by the way but my postings don’t get through. Either it’s WordPress on my Windows XP and last supported version of Firefox – or I’m blocked.

        • Alec Lomax says:

          James is happy to post abusive posts from Independence for Somerset, however anyone critical of IfS is barred. Cancel culture on SGP?

          • yesindyref2 says:

            Someone tried to point out the distortion that Wormtongue uses, but then later postings from him or her were blocked.

  43. Hamish100 says:

    Yes the twisting of comments take place between SGP and the independista in scotia. ( (failed candidate maybe ?)

    I reasonably asked on here about the poll and has ALBA lost another 1% ( margin of error maybe?) Are they a busted flush. Now another local by-election where ALBA does not stand. No comment on this by the host.

    Either way well done to the SNP in Fort William who exposes many labour supporters as tories with smiles.

  44. Welsh_Siôn says:

    Who would’ve thunk it?

    Does the bear have a stock of Andrex in its hut near the forest?

    Does the Pope say the rosary?

    ‘Labour is the party of middle England’, says Keir Starmer

    04 Dec 2021 2 minute Read



    In the Times interview, Starmer was asked if he considers Labour to be “the party of middle England?”

    He replied: “Yes, absolutely, it is and it must be. I’m constantly conscious of the fact that in addition to retaining the votes that we’ve had in 2019, my job is to regain the trust of those voters that voted Labour in the past, not just in 2019, but actually in 2017, 2015 and 2010 and no longer vote Labour. And persuade them not just to look at Labour again but also to vote Labour again. That is about building trust.

    “Have we got to focus on winning votes in the red wall? Yes, but we’ve also got to focus on winning votes across the whole United Kingdom. Therefore, yes is the answer to middle England. We absolutely need to win those votes.”

  45. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry by the way WGD for being OT, I just think it’s time for healing.

  46. Hamish100 says:


    A time for healing? I think most of us just get on with life.

    Still think it is not unreasonable to ask ALBA if they will stand in any by-election?

    That is the way to test public opinion and to respect the voter.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      I think how Alba spend their members’ hard-earned contributions on fighting election campaigns is their business Hamish, wouldn’t you agree? Specially since the full Council elections are only 6 months away?

      • scottish skier says:

        Ok, but then isn’t SNP policy not Alba’s business and just that of SNP members? 🙂

        There is a hostility around Alba that’s never occurred around other smaller Yes parties from the Greens (ok now a very respectable medium party), to RISE, the SSP, solidarity etc.

        For me, Alba has created this, not least by its leader siding with the unionists in falsely accusing the SNP leader and popular FM of breaking the ministerial code in the hope of damaging the main Yes party ahead of a key election.

        This was always going to cause friction between Alba and all the other Yes parties, and voters wanting iref2 were definitely not going to take kindly to it.

        Alba should have taken a leaf out of the Greens book and just set themselves up as an alternative Yes party rather than what is coming across as an openly anti-SNP one. There’s possibly still time, but of they go into the council elections still coming across as an anti-SNP party, they’ll flop again just like they did in May.

        • grizebard says:

          Well said.

          They would be far more likely to prosper by accentuating the positive. Nobody likes a bitter whinger.

        • Clydebuilt says:

          “For me, Alba has created this, not least by its leader siding with the unionists in falsely accusing the SNP leader and popular FM of breaking the ministerial code in the hope of damaging the main Yes party ahead of a key election.

          Damaging the main party ahead of a key election . . . . . . Not the actions of a party that want’s independence!

      • Hamish100 says:

        So why do they keep telling the SNP what to do? Wouldn’t you agree thats wrong!! Lol

        If they want to be be taken seriously then they need to put candidates up for every seat in Scotland or keep quiet.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        OK, I’ll bite one more time as curiously I’m actually in a good mood, interested to see how Zhao does with him having beat the Wizard earlier this week.

        There ain’t no such thang as bad publicity …

  47. Dr Jim says:

    If an entity claims to be a political party with a positive or even negative agenda then standing for political office is what you do in order to offer your prospectus before the electorate , if you choose not to do that then you are no different to any other opposition who behaves in the same way, like the BBC or other TV media or Scotland in Union, or These Islands, or Better Together, or George Galloway, and the list goes on of unaccountable to the public hostile critics

    Joe public can have all the opinions and make all the claims they want because they don’t stand for office nor do they have access to mainstream media to amplify their voice, they only have the internet but each of these aforementioned so called political and media entities are allowed direct access to mainstream media to air their opinions

    Some claim *constructive criticism* but nowhere in the definition of the word criticism is the word constructive used to describe the term except when accompanied by the word compassion and if anyone on planet earth has ever seen or heard some of this compassionate criticism emanating from the Alba party then I’d be shocked to my very core, and given that my opinion for what it’s worth is that all that particular entity desire is for other people to talk about them I will say no more on the subject

    • yesindyref2 says:

      Oh jings I really don’t want to get dragged into this, but the criticism are becoming totally farcical. I am a member of no political party TBTF, but vote SNP. But this distortion is not doing any good to anyone who has the remotest grasp on reality, so answer me this – is there some reason the SNP only stood candidates in 23 out of 72 constituencies in the 1966 General Election? Or just 2 in 1955?


      Or indeed why, to this day, the SNP only usually stand an average of 2 candidates in 4 councillor wards? Why not stand 4?

      I give up.

      • grizebard says:


        You’re perfectly right, of course, any political party is perfectly entitled to run (away from) any campaign it chooses. But any self-respecting one eventually has to stand before the people’s judgement for something sometime, no? If it just whinges on endlessly about another party’s policies without offering anything positive itself, it isn’t a political party at all, it’s a pressure group. Or an assorted bunch of political misfits and sour losers: “I usda be a contender..” Or a shill for something more sinister. Or a toxic stew of all the above and more besides. Take your imaginitive (or well-informed) pick.

        Yes, let there be sunshine and flowers. But sustained uncomradely behaviour from a bunch of folks whose initial declared purpose was to “aid and augment” naturally invites distrust and suspicion. How could it not? (Even though that unfortunate development was readily predicted by at least some of us.) The frustration and disappointment may occasionally (& inappropriately) boil over here, but the solution lies not here. It lies with them there folks. Whose side are they really on, and if really the same as ours, many of us are thinking, when please is it actually going to show…?

      • Statgeek says:

        The cynic in me wonders if the transfers from Alba to [guess] might have a few heads turning.

        That and the idea that Alba purport to be a pro-Indy alternative to the SNP, which means having a go at big elections. Small ones might force them to focus on policies others than the main one, which isn’t why a lot of people vote in small by-elections.

        • scottish skier says:

          There was a 1% difference between the pro-indy party constituency and list votes, with this following pro-Alba WoS pushing for people to vote unionist on the constituency.

  48. Alex Clark says:

    The Met police have so far refused to investigate the Tory party over the cash for honours scandal that the SNP complained about. It looks like they intended to ignore the breaking of the law over the Covid restrictions and the parties taking place in 10 Downing Street.

    One rule for them and another for the rest of us is a scandal in itself, Dame Cressida Dick needs to get her finger out or she should be next in line for investigation for a refusal to investigate allegations of law breaking under her watch.

    • grizebard says:

      Yes, this persistent “Nelsonian touch” from the very top of the Met is itself risking those Guardians of the Law becoming party (no pun intended!) to the fairly evident wrongdoing.

  49. Hamish100 says:

    The other day Cressida Dick (Dame) walked bedecked with medals to remember the duty sergeant who was killed.

    However it had the feel of a Met PR job following the bad press the met has had over time. The commemoration was incidental I fear.

    The commissioner is in the pocket of the Home Secretary it appears.

    • grizebard says:

      Well, she literally is, in a way. By longstanding statute. But she still has operational control, if she cares to exercise it. Just as the BBC has in its way, though has long since clearly abandoned even trying. This is how the Rule of Law is corroded and ultimately lost.

  50. Hamish100 says:

    Sorry I should have added. Didn’t the met investigate a single MP from Scotland. That was in the past too! In fact aren’t all incidents in the past?

  51. Alex Clark says:

    One rule for them…

    On 1 October 2020, Ferrier made a public statement apologising for serious breaches of COVID-19 regulations. On 26 September, she first noted symptoms of COVID-19 and took a test. On the same day as taking the test, she visited a gym, beauty salon and a gift shop. While waiting for the results, having COVID-19 symptoms, Ferrier took a train from Scotland to London, on 28 September, and spoke in a parliamentary debate that evening.

    The same evening, she received a positive test result, but returned to Scotland the next morning, again by train, having told her party whip that a family member was unwell. Following her public statement, Ferrier was suspended from the SNP, and referred herself to the police and the Parliamentary standards authorities.

    SNP leader and Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said on 2 October 2020 that Ferrier had been guilty of the “worst breach imaginable”. Sturgeon said she had told Ferrier that she should step down as an MP. Sir Lindsay Hoyle, the Speaker of the House of Commons, described her actions as “reckless”.

    The Scotsman’s Gary Flockhart criticised Ferrier for hypocrisy in calling for government advisor Dominic Cummings to resign after he travelled to County Durham during the national lockdown before being found to have broken the rules herself. Ferrier said that the coronavirus made her act “out of character”, an explanation that was dismissed by Sturgeon.

    On 7 October 2020, Ferrier’s Rutherglen constituency association announced that they had asked Ferrier to resign her seat over the scandal. On 11 October, Ferrier indicated she would not resign due to the incident. On 15 October, the Metropolitan Police said they would be taking no further action into the matter.

    The Tory party believe that they are above the law and can do whatever they like, even while they criticise and attack others if Margaret Ferrier was investigated by the Met for breaking Covid rules by making a train journey, a breach of the rules that cost her her job and her career as a result,

    Then why aren’t they investigating those that broke the rules by attending a party at No 10?

    Answers on a postcard.

  52. Hamish100 says:

    I note that elsewhere there is at least an admission that “….it will at that point become counterproductive for Alba to keep harrying Nicola Sturgeon – the only opponents we’ll need to be fighting are unionists.”

    So harangue the FM who has achieved electoral victory in May with the public backing the SNP and Greens. Who needs people that would attack an Independence Party first and then the tories second?

    • Alan D says:

      The penny’s starting to drop for them, I would say. They’re realising that a handful of council seats doesn’t make up for zero parliamentary seats, especially with a Westminster election taking place before IndyRef2. If they can’t even manage that little, they will have lost all credibility and relevance going forwards. No more of our energy or time should be wasted on such monumentally misled people any more than we spent standing behind Sean Clerkin during IndyRef1.

  53. yesindyref2 says:

    Well, that’s Zhao in the final by 6 to 1.

    Elsewhere Wormtongue is clearly rattled as it thinks that Dr Jim is Hamish. And yet again quotes selectively to stir it up, totally failing to point out that Hamish said: “I note that elsewhere there is at least an admission that …”.

    Anyway I’ll behave myself now as this is disrupting this thread and off topic.


  54. Hamish100 says:

    Dr Jim is actually Nicola.

    I have inside info!!

    As for independista elsewhere on blog world. Chill out. You are easily wound up.

    Still your rants make me smile. Cheers 1%.

    • Dr Jim says:

      You assured me you’d never blab you dang traitor you

      • Welsh_Siôn says:

        Dr Jim (as Dick Dastardly): Drat and double drat!
        Hamish100 (as Muttley): Snigger, snigger, snigger.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      Well, Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings was a sycophant, untrustworthy, deceptive, presumptive, behaving as though already owned the place. I make no comment about the relevance of that description.

  55. Welsh_Siôn says:

    No action to be taken against La Mone. (Or should that be “La Moan”?)

    Quelle surprise !

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      Yes Welsh Sion…..The matter was referred to the House of Lords Commissioner for Standards as part of a complaint alleging that Mone sent racist and abusive messages……the commissioner, Martin Jelley QPM, responded that he was unable to investigate Mone because the messages were not sent in the course of her parliamentary duties……..so it’s okay as she did it in her own PERSONAL time outwith her so called Tory duties in HOL’s…

      However she is alleged to have an involvement in a company being awarded a PPE Government contract via infamous Tory VIP fast channel……is THAT worth investigating by the Lords Commissioner…..as sure that was not done on a PERSONAL capacity but as a member of HOL’s….if as alleged she was found to have referred this company through the Tory VIP channel to win a contract from the Tory government ….and her a Tory member of the HOL’s….Hmm.

      I recall an Estate agent being sacked from his employer for sending a racist tweet to an English player in the Euros 2020….a tweet sent from his PERSONAL account……not via his Employers twitter account…..

      Both incidents above are bad….difference being that the employer i.e. the Estate agency realised that to employ someone who sends a racist comment is endorsing his racism….meanwhile the Lords commissioner by comparison does not see this as a problem……as in one that is worth investigating or indeed a blemish upon the reputation of the HOL’s itself………as if….

      Investigate a racist message sent via a Tory member of the HOL’s ?……..Nope…..as message sent via a PERSONAL capacity…….so nothing to investigate here…..or probably anywhere especially , or rather more so, if referred to Met Police……who, when incident involves a Tory, they expect the complainant to investigate and provide all of the evidence themselves…..who needs a police force when YOU as an ordinary person must take on the role and responsibilities of what is traditionally recognised as the role and responsibilities of the police themselves…..in Tory Brexit UK world obvs……

      Are there no ethical standards from which members of the HOL’s must abide within and outwith the chamber (pot)……can they , if Tory, just move the goalposts continually and turn a blind eye to behaviours and actions that you and I in our place of work , if identified, would be punished….it certainly seems to be the case that the rules for them and rules for us is being implemented to benefit the privileged few who just so happen to be Tory politicians or those who donate to them.

      Couple this with a Tory inhouse lapdog who heads the Met police as in DAME Cressida Dick who is also reticent in her supposed duty to investigate Tory corruption and law breaking…..well talk about having it all sewn up…where control is total therefore one’s actions, no matter how corrupt and questionable or illegal , are never investigated or challenged…… by ANY of the establishment…..yet some among us are obsessed with so called loss of freedom, so called cancel culture, so called freedom of speech being suppressed (not really though) for those who are extreme right wingers etc…..almost as if to distract us all from the BIGGER injustices and indeed the REAL injustices being played out in THEIR Tory Brexit UK……..

      Yet Ian Murray, Tory lapdog…again, has apparently 10 questions on independence to the SNP……how many questions does he have for the Tory government on their dubious campaign on the EU referendum via THEIR many (broken/false) promises made pre referendum via the here and now bleak reality post referendum…..or is that not to be touched as his HQ leader has now embraced, endorsed and accepted Brexit as tis endorsed by a certain area in England now lost to Labour because of Brexit…..and as a subject it is now, by Labour, considered finito……cause many of us have more than 10 questions to ask on that for sure……I think barge pole is the policy on Brexit and how Labour and Ian Murray want to deal with it now and in the future…..and also it’s Labour policy to say shut up Scotland……but you see independence is their, Labour’s, de facto deflection position and one that they use constantly to aid the Tories……..absolute rogues……I would put money on Murray being a member of Michael Gove’s so called Union Unit…..Labour just cannot help being the Tories little helpers in Scotland……past, present and in the future….hence why they no longer hold our attention, have our trust or more importantly our votes , via a majority, in any election.

      10 questions on independence is just another nail in the Labour coffin….time that coffin was shut for good in Scotland……almost there….and they themselves are providing the very hammer with which to nail it firmly shut .

      Tory Lady Mone and Labour Ian Murray have far more that unites them and have far more in common than that which supposedly divides them……who knew….well us of course.

  56. Dr Jim says:

    It’s nice for them that Henry McLeish and Jack McConnell are discussing what new words they can invent between them to con the electorate of Scotland into not thinking up their own words

  57. Dr Jim says:

    We finally find out there was indeed a party in 10 Downing street but nobody was there and no rules were broken by those people who weren’t there

    Well I believe that’s a perfectly satisfactory answer………for Tories

    • Legerwood says:

      And of course it was not a formal party.. No gilt edged invitations were sent out. If they had been then the brown stuff would really have hit the fan.

  58. Hamish100 says:

    I suppose the metropolitan police could just check the cctv or did Hancock take all the Pen drives to watch at home the shenanigans later with Johnson?

  59. Hamish100 says:

    Apparently I have impeccable taste to read Scot goes pop. On the other hand I am also called a numpty by some juvenile out of 3rd year at school?
    Still the juveniles can’t see the contradiction in their comments.

    SGP is worthy of review despite the 50% input by IIS who seems to be annoyed by life in general. I also read other articles and blogs some which I dont agree with. It’s called keeping an open mind.

    I still find the 1% dictating to the SNP is a little bit arrogant and sad at the same time.

    Look to yourselves first and come back when you can persuade more I would say.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      I tried my best Hamish100, but JK still only reads what Wormtongue says that people say, and doesn’t check for himself – apart from once it seems. I give up now, he’s a lost cause. I’ve spent far more time trying to get him to see the reality, than he has himself.

      We might be moving into a phase where we all count, and need to be on our mettle – and best behaviour – never mind what others are doing and saying.

      I hope I won’t be posting much till next yeare – time to get ready for Jingle Bells and snow ⛄

  60. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    I read that ALL visitors to 10 Downing street must be logged…..so there IS a list and names have been ticked off when they entered to attend the ‘party’…..even Inspector Clouseau could get to the bottom of that problem of how to find out who attended and how many…..

    However the Tories have a way of ‘misplacing’ important things that could be held against them as evidence and also of withholding information which also could be used as evidence against them….I believe it’s just another form of corruption and deceit which seems to run deep in ALL parts of the Tory party ……from the lowest rank to the highest……indeed it seems to be in their political DNA.

    The real problem is the inaction by certain other parts of the establishment to pursue the truth via investigation ………..it’s as if the Tory party are now to be considered untouchable…..I say considered but in truth they are now seemingly very untouchable……as to Owen Paterson well he played the fall guy by resigning to try and stop the fall of others especially one Boris Johnson……as in the domino effect……but the Tories winning that by-election last week in England seems to be, for some voters, a care not a jot and give not a damn on all that is going down (badly) via Tory Brexit party……and certain parts of the media are of that mind too……who among us needs to generate a conspiracy when you are actually living in the greatest Unionist establishment conspiracy being played out just now where the Unionist establishment are relentlessly protecting one of their own…..and they are doing it deliberately to…..

    • Dr Jim says:

      Yep, Number 10 Downing street the most secure building in the UK yet they don’t know who was in it, oh they do know there was no kissing under the mistletoe though, they’re positive about that, maybe Tories have the ability to pixilate or blur their own faces and all evidence of their presence self destructs in seconds like a Mission Impossible movie

  61. Dr Jim says:

    New topic —> PTO

Comments are closed.