The Brexit chickens come home to roost

Brexit, It’s going soooo well isn’t it. The whole of the UK is basking in the sunlit uplands of empty supermarket shelves, fuel shortages, rising prices, a Northern Irish trade war which is teetering on the brink, plummeting exports, livestock being culled because of a shortage of meat processing workers, and a looming and entirely unnecessary trade war with the the EU which is being manufactured by the British Government for no reason other than its desperate need to assert British exceptionalism in the face of a world which sees only a poorly governed middle sized European state with an untrustworthy and mendacious leadership and a Great British nationalist Napoleon complex. However the UK and its institutions are so far up the colon of British exceptionalism that they don’t even see the irony that it’s a Napoleon Complex which is the defining feature of the modern UK.

Right now the Conservatives are still avoiding the consequences of their mendacity and their party politically motivated decision to inflict the greatest act of political and economic vandalism on the UK in recent history. They are doing precisely what their Scottish Tory Mini-Mes accuse the Scottish Government of doing – hiding behind the pandemic. Unlike the Scottish Government which is confronted by an overwhelmingly hostile media which magnifies any failing and trumpets the attacks of the opposition parties at Holyrood, Boris Johnson is blessed – and the rest of us are cursed – with a right wing media which goes out of its way to minimise the damage created by the Conservatives and is eager to deflect the blame.

The Conservatives are also aided and abetted by a Labour party whose leadership appears to be far more interested in opposing the Labour party than it is in opposing the Conservatives. Indeed, the politician who is working hardest to make the Labour party seem electable is Boris Johnson. He presents Keir Starmer with one open goal after another, each of which the Labour leader manages to miss, that is if he even seems aware that they exist.

Starmer shows very little interest in the radical constitutional reform of the UK which Gordon Brown promised Scotland in 2014 was a done deal. Radical is not in the makeup of a politician who doesn’t even dare to wear brightly coloured socks. Scotland scarcely rated a mention in either his speech to the recent Labour party conference or in the eleven plus thousand word essay he published a few days beforehand, an essay containing many more words than people who actually read the whole thing. He’s farmed out constitutional reform to a commission headed by Gordon Brown, as though that was meant to inspire confidence and not despair.

In Scotland the Labour party, with Starmer’s blessing and encouragement, has become as knee jerk British nationalist as the Conservatives and just as determined as the Scottish Tories to deny Scottish democracy and the mandate for another independence referendum. This is not the path out of the electoral oblivion in which Labour has been languishing in Scotland since 2014, it’s a road that leads only to further irrelevance. Labour likes to call itself the people’s party but in Scotland it is convinced that it’s the people who are wrong and who need to change, not the party. Election after election sees the same dismal result for the Labour party in Scotland but Anas Sarwar is determined to pursue the same self-destructive course. It’s the longest political sulk in history.

Meanwhile the Conservatives have been carefully watching the Trumpist Republicans in the USA and learning a few lessons from them. They have already started to copy the vote suppression and gerrymandering tactics the US Republicans are infamous for. The Elections Bill currently passing through the Commons will place obstacles in the way of voting which will disproportionately affect demographic groups which are predominantly anti-Brexit and Labour supporting. It will abolish the independence of the Electoral Commission and place it under the ultimate control of the Cabinet Office. The redrawing of Westminster constituency boundaries will create new seats which are most likely to return a Conservative MP, while Scotland and Wales will see their representation in Westminster decrease.

We already have an unfair electoral system for Westminster elections which gave Johnson a majority of 80 seats on just 43.6% of the votes. The Tories seek to entrench their position and usher in decades of minority Conservative rule. It will make the Thatcher era seem like a beacon of open minded tolerance an liberal values.

Eventually the Brexit chickens will come home to roost, although certainly not to a bare supermarket shelf. The working class Brexit supporters in the north and Midlands of England who have been so assiduously courted by Johnson’s Conservatives will one day realise that they have been conned and that Brexit has done nothing to remedy the decades long Westminster neglect of their communities. When that happens the Conservatives will double down on the populist Trumpian tactics of the American Republicans and will wrap themselves in the Union flag while they attack some new scapegoat and further undermine democracy, aided by the lack of a written constitution which puts few effective checks on the power of a Prime Minister who commands a majority in the Commons.

The Tories depend on finding some group that they can scapegoat and blame in order to depict themselves as the victims. The EU has proven to be a highly convenient bogeyman so far, but eventually the Tories will no longer be able to shift all the blame for their disaster of a Brexit onto Europe. When that happens they will seek some new scapegoats and will become increasingly authoritarian and anti-democratic. They will blame Remainers for not backing Brexit, they will blame Scottish independence supporters for not believing in Britain and for supposedly hating the English. They will attack minority groups, environmental protesters, migrants, and anyone who doesn’t fully subscribe to their reactionary right wing Anglo-British nationalism. For all of us who don’t support the Conservatives’ Union flag waving Great British exceptionalism our only future in the UK is as the enemy within.

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203 comments on “The Brexit chickens come home to roost

  1. Dr Jim says:

    This hating the English tactic is a dangerous road for the Tories to keep driving on, we all know that repeating a thing often enough will result in a thing being seen as truth has always been a political tactic employed by the Westminster Tories of all colours but in doing so do they really want Scotlands people to end up hating Mr and Mrs England then use that to justify whatever their next move is

    Right now Nigel Farage has been deployed in his role of trouble creator once again, he’s telling the Irish how stupid they are remaining in the EU and that if they hadn’t stupidly hated the lovely Englanders so much they’d have been a part of the new glorious Imperium in Bringland today

    The Britlanders certainly know how to *bring the love* when they speak of themselves in such glowing lying parasitical terms

  2. Robert Oliphant says:

    “When that happens they will seek some new scapegoats and will become increasingly authoritarian and anti-democratic. They will blame Remainers for not backing Brexit, they will blame Scottish independence supporters for not believing in Britain and for supposedly hating the English. They will attack minority groups, environmental protesters, migrants, and anyone who doesn’t fully subscribe to their reactionary right wing Anglo-British nationalism.”

    Spot on!

    I don’t know about anyone else but that particular part of your closing paragraph ought to start alarm bells ringing across Scotland (England is too far gone I fear)!

    I know what I see when I read words such as those, I’m sure others do too, it’s a slippery slope to god knows what, that we want to be nowhere near when it reaches its inevitable conclusion.

    Indeed even achieving Independence might not be enough in itself, so I am glad we are continuing to garner international friends, I fear we might need them!

    • Welsh_Sion says:

      “When that happens they will seek some new scapegoats and will become increasingly authoritarian and anti-democratic. They will blame Remainers for not backing Brexit, they will blame Scottish independence supporters for not believing in Britain and for supposedly hating the English. They will attack minority groups, environmental protesters, migrants, and anyone who doesn’t fully subscribe to their reactionary right wing Anglo-British nationalism.”

      __________

      I would only object to the future tense – “will” – in this para.

      It’s already here – in the present.

  3. scottish skier says:

    On this topic, and returning to a post I made the other day about the British electoral system being institutionally discriminatory based on ethnicity / race…

    The problem with the UK, and the main reason for its growing constitutional instability, is that it does not respect the internationally recognised human right that is the equality of peoples.

    In addition to equality of individuals, also fundamental to human rights is the equality of peoples / nations as a whole, as enshrined in United Nations charters. Every nation, no matter how small or large in terms population, is equal at the UN (permanent membership of the security council issue aside, with this a subject for debate). One people one vote. There is no way the UN would countenance the ‘British approach’, i.e. dispensing with equality of peoples, and instead basing voting rights on share of global population, so allowing the most populous countries to completely outvote the small, facilitating dominance and exploitation of the latter.

    The European Union is founded on the same human rights principles; all members are equal, irrespective of size, with ‘one nation one vote’ on the Council, while the smaller the member state, the more MEPs it is allocated in parliament per capita by means of degressive proportionality.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degressive_proportionality

    Federations such as Germany use similar systems, with the US using the electoral college approach, all with the aim of equality for the peoples of each ‘state’ in union.

    To not do so is discriminatory (potentially based on race), as it would invariably lead to the peoples of some states / nations in union being able to outvote others by force of numbers, with this in direct opposition to the principle of the equality of peoples. Like in the UK.

    The UK parliament gives 82% of votes to England, with few remaining divided between Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland. This is, without question, highly discriminatory, as does not place the peoples of the latter countries as equals to English people. If English people saw Scots/Welsh N. Irish as their equals, just as e.g. the Germans do the Danish, or the French do the Slovenians, then the UK would be 1 nation 1 vote as the EU is.

    The English/British try to get away with this by telling everyone that we are ‘one British nation / people’ so the UK parliament just needs to be ‘one person one vote’, when only e.g. 1/4 of people in Scotland are actually ethnically British in whole or in part. Never will you hear the English/British media talk about the international norms of 1 nation 1 vote, degressive proportionality etc. Nope, they just keep saying ‘One brit one vote’ because it sounds fair when it is not, but is the reason for the democratic deficit. Even PR would not solve the problem; degressive proportionality giving each nation ~1/4 of MPs would be needed.

    Scots are then told they are ‘anti-English blood and soil nationalists’ if they question the fairness of the situation, as they seek to end discrimination based on ethnicity and give equality to the peoples of the UK.

    • grizebard says:

      This recent “ethnic” tack of yours is somewhat missing the point. We are such a mongrel population, you will have a hard time proving any real ethnic element to this, and just end up looking like an excessive kite-flyer. But still, I think you are reaching for something real, and the relevant example, I would suggest, is the case of the Chagos Islanders. The maltreatment they suffered at the hands of the British Empire wasn’t ethnically motivated, the very tangible reason was the desire for the prime resource the islanders possessed, their territory. An abuse of trusteeship, if you like. The Brits didn’t particularly care who they were displacing, it was an equal-opportunity land grab. It’s the same with us.

      It’s not a question of ethnicity but it is a matter of a self-identified people’s human rights to possession of their natural resources and control over them by way of self-determination. Scotland is not only well-established historically but recognition of its continued existence as a distinct entity is also enshrined in the UK constitution and existing laws. That distinction is not ethnic, since Scotland encompasses all those who feel allegiance to it irrespective of origin, but it is real for all that.

      • scottish skier says:

        That distinction is not ethnic, since Scotland encompasses all those who feel allegiance to it irrespective of origin, but it is real for all that.

        But ethnicity / nationality* comes entirely from self-identification. It is solely based on the very feelings you talk about. An attachment / allegiance to Scotland as a country and a belief in it as that.

        Note that nationality is simply ethnicity legally defined by the existence of a state. Scottish nationality doesn’t actually exist for now, only ethnicity / national identity by self-identification, and a form of citizenship through habitual legal residence. With no Scottish passports, nobody can be a Scottish national, only ethnically so, and only by saying they are Scottish. It’s the correct technical term for Scots until we get indy.

        But coming back to self-id, the ethnicity data in the census was of not gathered by people taking blood samples, going round houses to perform physical characteristic checks, or even examining parentage, but simply asking people what their ethnicity / national identity is in their own minds.

        Same for the very similar national identity question. Anyone who wanted to be Scottish could be freely. No questions asked. Civic nationalism to a T.

        Have a look at this:

        Scotland’s Census 2011 – National Records of Scotland
        Table DC2202SC – National identity by ethnic group

        https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/search-the-census#/location/topics/list?topic=Ethnicity,%20Identity,%20Language%20and%20Religion&categoryId=4

        And you will see Scottish ethnicity comes in possible every creed / colour of the global rainbow. It’s not confined to people born here with red hair, pale skin and freckles with a penchant for iron bru. 🙂 We have French Scots, Irish Scots, English Scots, African Scots, American Scots, Canadian Scots…

        1/3 of Scots born in Africa say they are Scottish. 1/4 of English born living here say they are Scottish, not English.

        It is only racists that try to link ethnicity / nationality to ‘blood and soil’ when it’s nothing to do with that. This does lead to misunderstanding and makes people awkward about what is the norm, totally harmless, and the basis of peace and stable government. ‘The anti-English’ talk is designed to pray on this worry, to make people feel bad about being Scottish (but not British).

        I, like the UN and international human rights bodies, link it purely to self identification. Of course if your parents self identify as Scottish, it’s likely you will too; that’s the only relationship as it’s not guaranteed at all. My best mate was born (in Scotland) of two English parents but doesn’t see himself as English at all; he’s ‘ethnically’ Scottish.

        Of course there are people in Scotland who are not Scottish and don’t want to be. The key to civic nationalism is not to force it. We cannot say ‘Everyone in Scotland is Scottish!’, that’s as bad as the Tories telling Scots they’re ‘all British’. Citizens yes in both cases (so all have the right to vote), nationality / ethnicity no.

        As for the legal arguments, it is self-identifying peoples who have a right to self-determination. They do not have to have previously been a self-governing nation, nor have any existing legal recognition of their country as that. They just need to demonstrate that they do see themselves collectively as a distinct people living on what has historically been their own land. Many African countries that exist today have never existed before colonialization, but instead comprise multiple nations / peoples of different ethnicities who previously lived as distinct groups on historical lands. But e.g. Nigeria now exists because all those peoples say they are in majority Nigerian too; Yoruba, Hausa and Igbo and all the hundreds of others…

        The reason Scotland has stayed legally distinct, is that Scots self-identify as that. It was the reason they sought protections in the union for Scotland’s legal system etc, and have resisted any attempts to change this. If, over the past 300 years, Scots and English people had increasingly self-identified as British together, forgetting their past identities, you would have seen a homogenisation of the UK legally to that effect. Would that stop indy? No, not if Scots decided to reverse their Britishness and collectively agree they were Scottish (again). Might take some time to unwind things though, just as it has for what Britishness in Scotland that did develop to fade.

        The legal status of Scotland is helpful, but it’s not where the right to self-determination comes from; that comes from the people of Scotland in majority saying they are that and ultimately not British / English. The embodiment of that is a Yes via referendum.

        Scotland’s legal status just supporting evidence of Scots self-identification as a people, but it’s not where the right to indy comes from under international law.

        As for colonisation; you can only colonially subjugate a people / deny them equal rights to your own people if you consider them inferior to you, i.e. you are racist. The British empire was based on the premise that the English / British were superior (‘English exceptionalism’) so should rule over other countries. It’s alive and well today, and applies to Scotland too.

        I hope this makes sense.

        —-
        *Nationality is ethnicity legally defined by a state. Scottish nationality doesn’t acutally exist for now, only ethnicity / national identity by self-identification and a form of citizen through habitual legal residence.

        • grizebard says:

          Sorry, way too TL;DR again. And early off-topic besides, so I’m just going to leave it there.

          • scottish skier says:

            Nae bother, but it’s not specifically for you to read, but to answer for anyone reading who might have asked similar in their minds. I’m just crap and short posts. 🙂

            Using an old unionist canard, I guess I could have simply condensed it to:

            If you want to see how Scotland has a right to self-determination / independence, have a look at how people (freely) responded to the national identity / ethnicity questions in the census, and you have your answer. The preservation of Scotland’s legal system etc is a product of that, not the cause of it. Ask Wales; it’s still Welsh even though it wasn’t afforded this*.

            If you want to know why Yorkshire does not have the right to indy, do the same. Now if in the next census, only 1/4 of people in Yorkshire respond ‘British / English’ to the national identity question, and 2/3 respond ‘Yorkshireish (only)’, then a re-evaluation of the situation would likely be needed. However, this would probably already be underway, because if most people in Yorkshire did not see themselves as British/English, the Yorkshire independence party would probably already be dominating politics there. Maybe devolution would be the answer? Would that level of autonomy be enough to put a lid on things?

            Back in the post-war baby boom, most Scots would have answered Scottish + British, hence only the narrow yes to devo in 1979. But 4 decades on and a lot has changed in terms of the national identity of Scots. Each new set of fresh faced voters that comes of age are less British than those that went before them. These are joined by new Scots who are not British either, like Mrs SS, and so here we are.


            *For the Welsh, the loss of Welshness in the form of distinct legal systems (pre-devolution) etc made language preservation so much more important.

          • scottish skier says:

            For those interested, this is worth a read:

            https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.5153/sro.3797

            National Identities and the 2014 Independence Referendum in Scotland

            Pdf here:

            https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fIsvGokcqDvvB1fjzeKB4PC4a-I9zjlL/view?usp=sharing

    • Michael Oxsmells says:

      Is it really “without question, highly discriminatory” to weigh the vote of a person in one state equally with the vote of a person in another? I’d question it and so would many others.

      There’s a conflict between the equality of peoples and the equality of individuals. You advocate a system which upholds the former at the expense of the latter. That’s not necessarily bad, but it’s absurd to say that it’s uncontroversially good. It’s what allowed the last two Republican US presidents to take office despite more people voting for someone else and it has a lot of opposition.

  4. Bob Lamont says:

    Apologies if it cuts across your excellent points, but thought this priceless..

  5. bringiton says:

    In any one sided partnership,the dominant party always assumes that the relationship is entirely about them and that the lesser party has little or no say in how the partnership behaves.
    There is only one human race with country borders established to protect cultural and political identities within that country,except of course for Scotland where our border is seen by the ruling English establishment as irrelevant.
    In their view,Scotland is an entity from the past that has long since ceased to exist,which gives them the excuse to declare that the UK is a one nation/country state.
    Brexit has exposed this attitude which has pretty well existed since the Treaty of Union days but has been successfully covered up by successive UK governments under the guise of the Scotland Office and superficial devolution.
    Brexit and the emergence of a hard right administration in London has exposed the true nature of the UK state as seen from London.
    Let’s hope sufficient Scots now see the light.

  6. Hamish100 says:

    .. you even have adverts online -even with the National, of Farage trying to sell investments. Complete chancers.
    The brexiters / kippers/ britnats lied.

    Scotland is now in a worse position as before. BBC / express / mail all deceitful organisations.

    Our only route is Independence- in efta or the Eu , independence is essential.

  7. Stewart b from Perth says:

    Excellent article in today’s Guardian by Polly Toynbee -Stephen Kelly CEO of manufacturing NI which represents 5500 NI firms says not one of his members has complained about the ECJ and are alarmed that Lord Frost on the orders of Johnson might trigger article 16 of the protocol- ‘Scotland would give its right arm for a deal like ours . Absolutely disgraceful they are a bunch of complete charlatans

  8. Hamish100 says:

    With the north of England getting our north’s carbon capture it proves once again that the britnat tories will put England first and foremost. Ross you tory Brit agree with this decision ? Labour will agree.

    Of course you do. It is in Scotland best interest you will say. Any undecideds out there?

    Join the Independence supporters.

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      STV News reported Scottish Tories…’disappointed’ in Carbon capture news…..

      So let’s all move on….’disappointed not disappointed….Not angry Scottish Tories cause when you are servant of the Union you go with flow…..right down into the gutter…..

      Labour via Sir Kerr will welcome this news for England and ignore re Scotland……Ian Murray…what will he say….will he too be disappointed then move on to more contrived SNPBad….

      Once again an economic (Non) Union failure for Scotland and a Union (works for them) bonus for England to keep the Tory votes coming…..

      The Climate Change Committee – which advises the Scottish and UK governments – has recommended a 2045 target date for Scotland to become “net zero” where our only remaining emissions are being offset.

      That date relied heavily on the much greater potential that could be offered by carbon capture and storage in Scotland.

      Secondly, workers in Aberdeen’s oil and gas sector, whose engineering skills can rapidly make this happen, have been looking for an alternative greener industry to which they can transition.

      So once again no logic other than levelling up for SOME within this non Union UK while t’others ignored as part of their UK but not ignored when blame apportioned via Unionist politicians…..

      Nothing against people in Liverpool getting jobs but it was promised and touted by DRoss as coming to the North East…..once more Mr Irrelevant has been undermined and Scotland betrayed but he is disappointed…..my heart bleeds for him…..

      So……………………memories of George Osborne broken promises

      2014: vote NO and we will deliver a carbon capture plant in the North East

      2021: carbon capture plant in the North East is cancelled and awarded to Liverpool”

      Hurrah…another post Brexit bonus for Scotland in way of thanks to (some) voting No in Indy Ref 2014….…..Oh wait……

      • grizebard says:

        Yup, first thing that sprang to mind also when that carbon capture announcement was made. Labour-style one-way “solidarity with Liverpool” yet again. Jeez. Another Bitter Together betrayal served up with no shame, accompanied by the Scottish Tory wimps wringing their hands and crying crocodile tears. What a useless shower of ne’er-do-wells, the lot of them.

        • Not-My-Real-Name says:

          grizebard

          re ” Labour-style one-way “solidarity with Liverpool” yet again”

          Carbon capture takes a ferry down the Mersey……

          The (Labour) Mayor of Liverpool Joanne Anderson is DEElighted …..no mention does she make of Scotland which I am sure she sees as a mere region …nope…….why Thank you my TORY friends….jobs for those in this so called (non) Union that works for some but not for others…..jobs for the many (larger population in England) not the few ( Scotland less population than England)……is that the way it works in the UK ?

          She tweeted :

          “This is really great news as the region looks to be at the forefront of tackling the climate emergency”

          Yup Joanne it seems that way….meanwhile for the former bled dry, via WM, “forefront” of your country’s economy ,as in the oil sector in Scotland , it is NOT really great news….but then that is thanks to your party as well as t’other Unionist parties….Scotland only relevant to your country when it suits you…..when you need to exploit our resources…..exploit then abuse and use to the benefit of whatever WM government is in power………the same resources from a country that you and t’others say is ‘subsidised’ by YOUR country Joanne……

          So how’s this Labour mantra of British jobs for British workers coming along Joanne ?……..is it morphing into British jobs for English workers…….who knew…well Scots of course…the post Brexit so called sunny uplands if they exist (they don’t really) were always going to shine on but one country in this UK and one country only…the one that decides who is in power at WM….and that has always been and will be always the case…..so tell us again why we should stay a part of this UK……….I personally ran out of reasons many many years ago…….for OBVIOUS reasons with VALID examples why……

          Wonder of Joanne has heard that Scotland is running out of wind…..in the same way it was running out of oil in 2014 BT Unionist campaign………….

          • grizebard says:

            “Running out of wind” {laugh} I wonder if they’ll be desperate enough to try that one on next time? “Sir” Ian Wood, you’ll be needed again…

            …or maybe not, since even very recently he has been exhorting the UK to keep going with oil exploration and extraction, y’know, the stuff that (according to him back in 2014) was soon going to run out…

  9. Dr Jim says:

    Will we see headlines in newspapers to the effect *UK Guv stops Scotland going GREEN*
    *UK Guv puts the mockers on Scotland* *UK Guv politicises GREEN technology*
    *UK Guv breaks GREEN promise to Scotland*

    Of course we won’t and why? how very dare Scotland even think about Independence, we the controllers of power in England will sort you jocks out for voting SNP, but would it have made any difference if we hadn’t?

    Of course it bloody well wouldn’t, what does anybody in Scotland ever expect from any English government, that they’d keep their word? in the history of Englands past have they ever kept their word on something? on anything? to anybody?

    They’re liars and always will be, and we should be very very angry not just disappointed, what the hell does *disappointed* mean? “Oh dear how sad never mind*?

    If this thing is going to cost around £1 billion I’ve got a spare £20, maybe there’s a million folks or more can spare that, and maybe private enterprise can invest the rest to re employ our oil and gas workers in new skilled jobs for life while helping to save the planet at the same time, this is not a loss making financial or green risk here, there are massive benefits to our country in this

    • Capella says:

      As Martina Anderson, Sinn Fein, said to Lord Frost, “The next agreement you keep will be your first.”
      Our Irish cousins know what they’re dealing with.

      • grizebard says:

        It seems the EU pre-empted their original play and proposed what all the businesses in NI wanted, but that well-targeted concession was inconvenient for the wannabe antagonists of the UKGov, so Frost upped the ante and started questioning the role of the ECJ instead (which they had already signed up to), knowing full well that it was a no-go red line for the EU.

        Whoever thought that the UK would ever get a government straight out of Monty Python…?

  10. James Mills says:

    Breaking News !

    ‘Brexit Britain’ , I understand , is being sued by Weight Watchers as the lack of food on supermarket shelves is undermining their appeal to the overweight and may affect their profits .
    Competition from empty supermarkets was a Brexit Benefit that had not been foreseen by their Board and they were referring the case to the consumer watchdog , the Competitions and Markets Authority .

    Meanwhile Boris Johnson’s environmental slogan ”Green is Good ! ” is being criticised by Murdo Fraser as it undermines his Queen’s Eleven support and endangers his status in the O O !

    Police acted swiftly today to prevent a serious incident in London when Michael Gove , a known nightclub ‘dad dancer ‘ of ill-repute approached some peaceful ”Levelling up ” protesters .
    Gove , who had recently been rejected by ‘Strictly Come Dancing ‘ , has a history of inciting trouble by appearing as himself in public .
    A police spokesperson said that he has been removed to a place of safety so the public need not be alarmed . He was seen entering the Ministry of Sound club .

    A giant puppet of a Syrian refugee has reached the Kent coast and been apprehended by a giant Cardboard cutout of Priti Patel using her new anti-immigrant puppet legislation . The puppet will be held at a nearby immigrant puppet holding area until its status as a genuine refugee can be established .
    Nigel Farage has controversially been photographed beside a giant poster of asylum-seeking puppets but has stated that he has ”nothing against puppets as some of my closest friends are puppets !”

    • Welsh_Sion says:

      The puppet will be held at a nearby immigrant puppet holding area until its status as a genuine refugee can be established .

      ____

      Hoping that someone will pull a few strings to help the poor puppet …

      __________

      Nigel Farage has controversially been photographed beside a giant poster of asylum-seeking puppets but has stated that he has ”nothing against puppets as some of my closest friends are puppets !”

      _____

      Nigel Farage has controversially been photographed beside a giant poster of asylum-seeking puppets but has stated that he has ”nothing against puppets as some of my closest friends are muppets … I mean, puppets !”

  11. Welsh_Sion says:

    You may have seen my earlier post about the Commission looking into inter alia the independence of my country.

    Now, I know this is the BBC, but note how the commentator is covered by anonymity.

    __________

    Independence for Wales will be considered by an independent commission set up by the Welsh government.

    Prof Laura McAllister, who is leading the commission alongside ex-Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, said it would be “ludicrous” not to look at independence.

    But some people do not think Wales is currently “strong enough” to run itself.

    “I don’t agree with the Senedd running the country, I prefer it to be done from Westminster,” one Bangor resident said.

    __________

    My question:

    Who the &*%”!$!£& is this Bangor resident? Is s/he for real? What the $£&^$%!$ have they been doing throughout this pandemic – and which politicians have they been following?

    Do you*really* have Scottish equivalents of this type of inanity and thick-as-mince types? Sheesh!

    _________

    Nos da / Guid nicht / Goodnight, Scotland!

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      ” one Bangor resident “……..what a majority WS…..well that’s that then no Welsh independence for you WS….if “one Bangor resident” prefers WM rule as opposed to a government in Wales ….it’s all off the table….sorry..at least you tried……was the Bangor resident a Giant who used to live at the top of a beanstalk by any chance….cause if so that would hold sway BTW…Giants are like a majority…due to their size…I feel.

      To answer your question ..Yes we do in Scotland too….they are Proud Scot Buts….so proud a Scot they are…. that they prefer that Scotland is run by any other country other than Scotland…..the ‘any other country’ being England also via WM….BUT….that is apparently what a proud Scot is….who knew….perhaps in an alternate universe they would be considered ashamed of being Scottish….BUT prefer if they were English ruled by WM in England….

      • Welsh_Sion says:

        I know you’re on our side, NMRN – how could you be anything less?

        However, your giant analogy prompts me to refer my Honorable Friend to the tales of David and Goliath and Jack and the Beanstalk.

        In both cases, against all odds, the little man (there must be room for a ‘little woman’, too, somewhere …) won the day.

        Courage, mon brave – we’ll win in the end despite this dinosaur from Bangor. (Could be the Leader of the Young Conservatives at Bangor Uni for all we know!)

        • Not-My-Real-Name says:

          Indeed WS……ah but also Giants are bullies……guess who in this Union is the bully….

          If they cannot ‘persuade’ us then they just ‘bully’ us…..and the media ensure they ‘pick’ the ‘right’ kind of ‘ordinary’ citizen to….persuade or bully ?…..other citizens into THEIR way of skewed thinking….aka not thinking….(too deeply)…..

          All power to the …’wee’ man…..

          Have a lovely day WS

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Your observation “Now, I know this is the BBC, but note how the commentator is covered by anonymity” is a regular occurrence on BBC Scotland web articles, also increasing silent as to who wrote the article, only perhaps an “Analysis by Lisa Summers” (or similar) cameo inserted to imply it is not from a propaganda unit.

      There is always that “one {insert location of choice} resident” in such creations throwing a view contrary to the majority of the populace, BBC Scotland’s roving reporters can take hours to find that one perspective they want to paint as a random in “the street” vox-pop for the evening news, creating them in print is so very much easier.

  12. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    ” He presents Keir Starmer with one open goal after another, each of which the Labour leader manages to miss, that is if he even seems aware that they exist”

    I heard that Labour did NOT want to win the next GE but instead were working to win the following one….that actually seems quite credible when you look at the mess of everything and look at the debt racked up by the Tories…..but it’s also quite INCREDIBLE , reckless and very cruel ….for them to see people suffer while they as a party sit on their hands and do nothing to oppose it ….indeed at times of any Tory crisis Labour normal course of action is to generate an internal Labour crisis in order for the media to focus on THEM and their problems and NOT on the Tories…..now that is some CRAZY big boy unforgivable reckless act for ANY so called official opposition to commit…..but we have all seen it happen time and time again…as WGD said “open goals” but Keir does not seem to want to strike instead he is more concerned about whether he may offend Brexit voters by opposing Boris J and the Tory cabinet…………….Keir will now adopt an even more kinder, gentler style of politics towards Boris J and as per give his political support to Boris J in political times of need…..but Keir will however cast aside his contrived kindness and gentleness to continue to demonise Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP …and proceed to tell the Scottish people that he, like Boris Johnson, knows what is best for Scots and what it is that we really want and need……….Ian Murray and Anas Sarwar keep him in the loop about that (as does DRoss for Boris J)….tittle tattle aka lies that Keir buys.(and he does it deliberately too…as do they…. as lies are all that they have and all that Keir needs to hear)….same for DRoss and Johnson.

    Brexit Union style :

    Tory Brexit does not work for us mere plebs because it was never intended to work for us……..and it
    will also never work for Labour who now seem to have embraced it as a policy……sick of hearing about them trying to win back the Red wall now the Blue wall…….pandering to Brexit voters while , like the Tories, ignoring Scotland who voted Remain by a majority but who Labour think they NEED to win back also……WHY ?……HOW ?…….by ignoring our democratic majority vote to remain in the EU …Have they heard of Mission Impossible…….or are they like all of the other Unionist parties dictating what they say is important to us and for us….. speaking on our behalf but NOT speaking for us….indeed all Unionist parties are just ignoring us ..is that a collective political Unionist party policy ? (Rhetorical Q obvs).

    Ironic that a Brexit policy that Brexit voters voted for in order to get rid of EU immigrants will now, in order for it to work, need to get those same immigrants back to help us get through Brexit………coming over here taking our jobs…..leaving to go back over there and then no one in the UK seems to want to take the jobs that they, the EU Immigrants, left behind…..do you laugh or cry at the sheer stupidity and senselessness of it all……………well you can….. but better to just say YES to independence then this sh*t show via the WM political circus all goes away….and we get some peace……deserved peace….long overdue……..and peace we will never get if we stay in this (NON) Union…..for sure.

    Hands up if you too are demented by all of this…..and way past demented at those in media etc who are ignoring it all………..and they too are doing it deliberately…. to paraphrase Foulkes the Fool.

    #ScottishIndependence3

  13. Hamish100 says:

    Hells bells, elsewhere the big story is doing a poll on the gender recognition act.

    I tell you it’s all we talk about in my house, all female except one male- (self identified) I can say hand on heart that not one of my friends or work colleagues believe it’s worthy of such import.

    Independence has been subsumed trump like into a conspiracy. Just what we are crying out for a poll.

    How glad an election just a few months ago settled for the majority that independence is the main crucial talking point.
    Has someone forgotten that the Parliament voted for new rules. That is labour, snp, Lib Dem’s , greens.

    Glad this blog attacks the craziness of Brexit, the lies and deceitful MSM, the north east ignored for the English so called red wall constituencies.

  14. Dr Jim says:

    The activists behind the generation of hysteria over the GRA know perfectly well it’s a nothing story but that’s not the point of their activism, because they also know that the professional activists love this stuff and will make the most noise out of it, so those professional ALBAtivists intent on dividing the YES cause in support of the Tories mission of splitting the SNP vote of confidence will beaver away at it in support of their real cause of revitalising Mr Devo Max’s political vengeance

    None of this has anything to do with Independence for Scotland and it was never begun for that purpose but some of them don’t know that, some of them genuinely believe they really have some chance of some kind of miracle by placing their faith in an unelectable dream shall never die piece of theatre from an unelectable man, and they refuse to see neither is it true or real, it’s just impossible nonsense because Scotland will not vote for them

    All they do is assist the Tories every time they open their mouths and their leaders know that perfectly well

  15. Capella says:

    BBC Scotland website: “Covid in Scotland: Booster jabs ‘pushed back’, say opposition MSPs”.
    By opposition MSPs they mean the Tories and their Health spokesman, Dr Sandesh Gulhane. That’s why the “pushed back” is in quotation marks. They haven’t really been pushed back but he just said that so the BBC broadcast that as if it is news.

    Imagine my surprise, when returning last night after getting my booster jag, that I’m not supposed to be getting it till November. Is this November already?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58973525

    The BBC doesn’t know that Scotland is no. 2 in the world in vaccinating residents, second only to Iceland.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Aye, spotted that piece of mischief from the Tory spin-factory being promoted on both the Scotland and Politics pages.

      The “opposition MSPs” plurality comes from both two faces of Gulhane agreeing with each other, the ever helpful HMS Sarah Smith providing the amplification.

      I’ve noted such articles increasingly appear with no author attributed, not even a Lisa Summers analysis to imply it didn’t come from the Scotland Office…

    • Tam the Bam says:

      I’m being ‘punctured’ (booster & flu-jag) on Friday….hope I dont go bang!

  16. James Mills says:

    If you haven’t done it already then Scots who are p*ssed off with this BBC Scotland constant anti-Scottish Government propaganda ( aka Lies ! ) need to re-think paying their BBC Tax !

    Why should anyone pay to maintain an organisation that continually and blatantly undermines the ELECTED Government of the country ?

    Why, in the midst of a pandemic, should you financially support a ‘news’ organisation which is arguably contributing to unnecessary deaths by its daily questioning of the Scientifically Approved Health measures adopted by the Government ?

    Why pay a tax to support BBC Scotland which clearly has a political agenda which is contrary to that of the Elected Government ?

    Why support ” neutral ” BBC Scotland which has shown itself to be no more than an arm of the Tory/Labour opposition in Scotland ?

    If you think that BBC Scotland is only ”doing its job ” in holding the Scottish Government to account then you need to look farther afield .
    Nowhere else in the UK , not in N. Ireland , Wales or England does the ELECTED Government receive the scrutiny that BBC Scotland subjects the SNP Government to everyday !

    Nowhere in the UK does the local BBC instigate criticism of the Health measures put in place to protect the population as is routinely done in Scotland .

    Nowhere else in the rest of the UK does the BBC actually mislead the public with outdated graphs or statistics while deliberately ignoring data which shows the Government in a good light .

    Nowhere in the UK does the BBC hold the Government Ministers responsible for EVERY issue arising , whether it be in Health or Education or whatever !

    Nowhere in the rest of the UK does the BBC allow opposition politicians freedom to criticise and contradict the First Minister when holding Covid briefings – while the briefing is still in progress !

    BBC Scotland has become a blatant anti-SNP Government tool and its broadcasting standards are shameful .
    When not misleading the public or ignoring facts which it finds inconvenient to broadcast it is continually providing a platform for laymen with no expertise to criticise scientific advice given to the Government as if this criticism was equally valid .

    In short , BBC Scotland is everything that a totalitarian regime would want as its Public Broadcaster – except this broadcaster works for the UK Government and promotes THEIR policies which have been rejected for decades by the majority of Scots .

    Time to stop paying the tax !

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      Plus James…would anybody be surprised that Kenny Farquharson, Paul Hutcheon , Tom Gordon et al have NOTHING in their Twitter timelines re Carbon capture North East story……BUT some instead focus on another SNPbad story re apparent SNP failure to ‘protect’ Joanne Cherry against bullying and also a rash of non stories concocted to divert attention onto non issues/problems not BTW caused by UK Govt or Brexit but by…..yes the SNP…….those SNP Independent minded pesky kids again……media have not a Scooby Doo…..

      Also nowt fae Ian Murray, DRoss et al on their Twitter timelines on Carbon capture story…….did we just imagine that happened yesterday ?

      Sorry who is it again who is on Scotland’s side……fighting for Scotland……well not them for sure….mind you when your main job is to show uber support for the union and those Unionist political parties and by doing so constantly undermine Scotland and it’s government then you need to channel your inner fantasy over actual reality.

      BBC ‘Scotland’ news not news website dropping Carbon capture story down down down into insignificance…oh just looked…story now GONE……in headlines…mind you yesterday when it was news it fell so fast down the website that if you blinked you would miss it…..

  17. Capella says:

    World beating Covid infection rates in England aka UK again. Now percolating through to the consciousness of the BBC R4 news. What is the cause? “We are the victim of our own success”, they reply. Not ending masks indoors and social distancing and everybody back to the office and nightclubs and no vaccine passports. Oh no. It’s the success of the vaccine program that’s caused rampant infection rates.
    Eh?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCH4ObWWQAEvX4o?format=jpg&name=medium

    No word of how Scotland is doing of course. That would be too embarrassing after trumpeting the “Worst in Europe” claims a couple of weeks ago.

    • grizebard says:

      Well observed. Find any handy distraction (esp. EU) and blame anything and anyone (esp. Scotland) except this UKnotOK Clown Circus of incompetents.

  18. Dr Jim says:

    Tom Harris former Labour MP who after losing his seat to the SNP landslide in 2015 then promised to vote Tory in future elections and was part of the vote leave campaign in Scotland for Brexit has just been made an advisor to the Tories in the Scotland office

    Alister Jack heid bummer spokesgit for the Tories in Scotland said he’s delighted to have someone with Tom Harris’s insight into Scottish public life

    That makes another anti Scotland placeman stuffed into the controllers office of Scotland who not only weren’t voted for by Scotland but were absolutely rejected by Scotland and kinda proves once again that once a Labour always a Tory

    Between this carry on and Stuart Campbell’s Alex Salmond revengers party hasn’t it become at the very least slightly noticeable that there’s a great deal of money being sloshed around directed towards the breaking of Scotlands democracy

    The fear that Scotlands FM is not budging on her promise to hold a referendum before the end of 2023 has set Scotlands enemies into overdrive

    The main thing to remember in all the bile and vitriol being spewed out on twtter facebook and the comments sections of the newspapers that these people have been instructed to infest is that a referendum on Scotlands future is not Nicola Sturgeons or the SNPs referendum, it’s our referendum that we voted for in the May election which we overwhelmingly won, so forget about who doesn’t like who for whatever reasons or excuses they concoct, these people are trying to prevent what we voted for by hook or by most obviously crook

    Don’t let them divert us by sewing their seeds of doubt despair and lies

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      “Tom Harris former Labour MP has just been made an advisor to the Tories in the Scotland office”…

      Aaaand to add him to list of former Labour MP’s now backing Tories….John Woodcock, Ian Austin, John Mann, Gisela Stuart, Kate Hoey ( Frank Field now an ..eh..’Independent’)…….all of them now in HOL’s………and who all Voted for Brexit and advised voters to Vote Tory in 2019 election….how many currently in Labour party now are ‘secret Tories’ sitting on the wrong side of the HOC’s gazing longingly at the opposite side wishing they too could sit there…..is there a pattern forming here………..

      And yet they , Labour, castigate us for calling them Red Tories….if the shoe fits etc etc

      No doubt Tom Harris will be back on the TV circuit from the news where YOU are…giving his..’objective’…view on all things Brexit, Scottish and Indy……mind you with yet ANOTHER one defecting from Labour to either join or support the Tories it stops them trying to , as a party pull the wool over Scots voters eyes…….Brenda from Bristol would say..” Not another one”…..

      Remember when yon Ian Murray was going to defect to that nothing protest ‘party’ that kept changing it’s name and then he backed out at the last minute…..he even rehearsed his speech for press conference…..all because Corbyn was bad or something or rather Corbyn was too pro the poor people and not supporting the rich business community enough…aka not Tory enough…..why does he, Ian Murray, not just join the Tories…after all he represents them and was elected by them in his constituency.

      Tom Harris voted Tory in 2019…and 100% sure he also voted Tory in Scottish elections cause Tom Harris has always been a Tory at heart……Ladies and Gentlemen I give you the REAL Labour party…..Tory Lite or Tory wannabees…..same thing…..no difference….cheeks of same you know what…………in it for themselves to feed off the Union Gravy Train…..choo choo …another ‘passenger’ onboard ……..but really just another idiot to ignore in the future…..got his number have we not……….Thanks Tom you have just helped us prove our point about you and your former so called Labour party…….

      God at this rate they, the Labour party, will be making the case for those in Scotland, who do not already do so , ….clamour to vote SNP and YES to Indy2.

      The Unionist plot thickens….Ha Ha Ha……funny yet depressingly NOT funny………aka no fun for us in Scotland and Wales in this (non) Union.

      #ScottishIndependence4

      • Bob Lamont says:

        Your autocorrect changed “objectionable” to ’objective’ in the 4th paragraph.
        It’s not the “Tom Harris” we should be looking to but their relentless supply to and promotion by the media.
        The only thing missing is a “Your Country need You” poster, but I’m sure Alister Jack is the likely poster boy much to the chagrin of the Forres Gump…
        They know they have the paddles and the canoe, but shit creek is suddenly dry 🤣

    • grizebard says:

      If the Tories need the “insight into Scottish public life” of old Labour crusty Tom Harris, they’re not only desperate, they’re doomed.

      (Dear Labour-supporting reader, isn’t it high time your party stopped collaborating with these enemies of the people before it causes terminal damage to its own reputation and future in Scotland? A future that could be a fresh start in a new country devoid of Tory interference, instead of one where you’re merely their useful-idiot shills…?)

      • Not-My-Real-Name says:

        Labour activist and former Labour candidate in Holyrood election in 2016… John Ruddy congratulated Tom on Tom’s Twitter account upon tweeting the news of his new appointment as another Tory dogsbody…….

        John tweeted :

        ” Congratulations Tom, I’m sure you’ll do a great job”

        Does John not see that the…OPTICS….on this do not look good in a) Tom was a former LABOUR MP and b) Tom is going to work for the TORIES……………….BUT….John the Red Tory thinks Tom (former Red Tory now Blue Tory) will do a GREAT job for a party that is supposedly a party in opposition to the one that John Ruddy supports…….oh my sides …..splitting as I write this……….cue Ian Murray congratulating Tom………..

        Is the UK becoming a comedy series…….a dark comedy that is…………

    • jfngw says:

      It’s not really a Scotland Office, more a colonial head office occupied by Westminster appointed apparatchiks. There to ensure another countries wealth is not interfered with.

      The important thing about the bile and nonsense from the BBC is we keep focused on the objective. Not deviated by more drivel from some Alba supporters who seem to believe high-jacking the COP26 to declare a referendum will impress world leaders. A bit of grandstanding to deviate attention away from climate change and onto independence looks like a sure fire winner to lose support from most leaders. It could be a scenario a second rate Hollywood scriptwriter would come up with.

  19. Hamish100 says:

    Was labour MP’s in the 60’s -90’s really 50% Tory but they wanted elected so much and therefore pretended to be labour. Answer on a postal vote…..
    To Alistair Radical Darling
    Tom I write for the Tory papers Harris…

    Blue labour all along.

  20. scottish skier says:

    So much for the UK attracting the world’s talent.

    https://news.sky.com/story/supply-crisis-these-industries-have-job-gaps-like-the-hgv-sector-and-show-no-sign-of-bouncing-back-12431265

    Supply crisis: These industries have job gaps like the HGV sector – and show no sign of bouncing back

    “If we go back a couple of years, the proportion of HGV drivers who were EU nationals was about 15%, but the equivalent proportion of forklift truck drivers was actually 34%,” says Bottle.

    “If you were to speak to those people who’ve returned to their home countries of Poland, Romania or wherever, they might struggle to unpick whether that was directly as a result of COVID or Brexit, but the upshot is that people did go home and they haven’t come back.”

    Data from Indeed suggests that Brexit is a factor: the number of jobseekers from the EU has fallen by a third since the end of 2019, while the number of people applying from outside the EU is practically unchanged.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Yet it’s still a smokescreen – “If you were to speak to those people” who’ve been there in the HGV industry through thick and thin they’d point to 4 days to a Brussels drop and return which had been 24hrs on a good run previously.
      “Data from Indeed suggests that Brexit is a factor” 🤣, most in the freight industry might have been MUCH less diplomatic.

  21. Welsh_Sion says:

    I know you’re distracted by the latest Scotland Office shenaningans – perhaps that’s why this can be snuck in so as to not appear on your radar.

    Appalling is just one word for it:

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/dystopian-benefits-policy-demands-claimants-take-photos-of-themselves-with-local-newspaper/ar-AAPHkaJ?ocid=msedgntp

    ‘Dystopian’ benefits policy demands claimants take photos of themselves with local newspaper

    Ministers have adopted a “dystopian” policy of requiring universal credit claimants to send in photographs of themselves in front of their homes and hold local newspapers in order to continue receiving benefits.

    […]

    • James Mills says:

      Expect to see Lizzie holding a copy of the Daily Mail outside Balmoral , then !

      This might catch on .

      She might order the staff to line up along the drive in a kinda Royal conga line down to the gate and along the road to Braemar , all holding up photos of Andrew at a Pizza joint as an alternative to him appearing in a US court !

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      Yes WS I saw that…….

      True it is abso-blo*dy-lutely shocking …and yet at the same time it is also such a very predictably Tory like action to take…….Tories very ‘conservative’ in taking real action against off shore account tax dodgers, oil companies and big corporations but uber diligent in their dealings/actions with all of those who are less fortunate whom they , Tory party, deem as a drain on their (our) finances.

      Workhouses next…..never mind them harping back to the second war war…..it’s Victorian times that beckons for Brexit UK-getting-even-worse-Not-OK……………

      I believe Rishi Sunak to cut tax on banks to make ..CITY….competitive…so Hurrah not all doom gloom…if however your really desperate and needing to claim a benefit like say UC…then it is all doom and gloom….but well it seems to be a big bonanza of ….’benefits’ ……and happy days for the banks though and also for t’other’s like English cities and their workers . one recently awarded Carbon capture contract ( (at the expense of Scottish city and it’s workers via another broken promise)……so also yet again Scotland consigned to doom and gloom thanks to (non) Union…..Hurrah…..said Proud Scots But……..and one ‘Bangor’ resident……

    • Alex Clark says:

      Disgusting. They’ll be sending pensioners up big chimneys next to “earn” their pittance they call the pension. The worst pension in Europe.

    • Capella says:

      Ritual humiliation. Whoever dreamt this up is quite simply a fascist.

  22. denmylne says:

    odd tweet from Angus MacNeil
    @AngusMacNeilSNP
    Oct 18
    Asked by a Swiss diplomat tonight on “the situation of Scotland for independence.”
    I answered as honestly as I could, “Scotland is trapped”

    and for as long as UK Gov can block referendums for independence & Scot Gov blocks elections for independence, there is no other answer.

    In 2020 when support for yes was up about 54%, i mooted the idea of making the 2021 HE an indy plebicite. I did make the caveat that any decision should wait till the campaign for 2021 he started and then review the polls. no one publishes their manifesto 12 months before the election. As it turned out, as we approached the 2021he, the support for yes dropped to 49-51% and nicola took the decision not to turn the 2021he into an indy plebicite. With hindsight, i think this was the correct decision, although indy parties got

    constituency
    snp = 47.70 + Greens = 1.29 total = 48.99%

    list
    snp = 40.34+ greens = 8.12+ Alba = 1.66 total = 50.12 %

    close, we’re neatly there but not close enough, the unionists would have been all over that 48.99% figure.

    What Angus is referring to is the debate at the snp conference regarding the draft indyref2 bill. This read, “give us indyref2 and a s30” Angus wanted to introduce an ammendment, “give us indyref2 and a s30 or we’ll hold an indy plebicite at next election”

    this was rejected because it wasnt necessary and it would been seen as a threat to bojo, almost goading him to reject indyref2. So i agreed with this position.

    what i find odd about angus’s tweet is it seems to be suggesting that not having the option of an election plebicite in the indyref2 legislation blocks our ability to hold one. it doesnt. If bojo blocks indyref2 bill then at a subsequent election, he or ge, there is nothing which can stop nicola putting such a plebicite into the manifesto.

    • scottish skier says:

      In 2020 when support for yes was up about 54%, i mooted the idea of making the 2021 HE an indy plebicite.

      This could well have been a serious mistake though. Pro-indy parties only just managed a majority of the Yes vote in May 2021 by a whisker; pretty much the net the same as current Yes support in polls (ex DK). But it might have gone the other way if it was a vote on indy, e.g. due to a higher turnout of No voters.

      Or if it had been 50.1% Yes…

      Two could play at that game. Westminster could trigger a new UKGE and unionists parties could then stand on a clear ‘reverse indy’ ticket, and if they got 50.0001% of the vote, well then indy would need to be reversed.

      While 50%+1 is a win, it’s a win for either side, and a Yes vote by Scots can be reversed by them.

      So we need a Yes vote that isn’t going to be reversed. The bigger the margin of the win, the safer it becomes that unionists, and voters, will accept it. There isn’t really a margin here, but it seems the public did not seek to reverse 52%, so it’s probably actually that high.

      I think voters will respect results if it actually reflects the population. However, a very narrow Yes on a low turnout may not actually do that, meaning voters actually turning out in higher numbers to reverse it would actually be ‘the will of the people’.

      For me, an election plebiscite is for where it’s clear as day Scots want indy, but England is not allowing a vote somehow.

      That isn’t quite where we are yet. There has been no real attempt to actually stop iref2 legally, just threats of it. More cat and mouse stuff.

      • Welsh_Sion says:

        Don’t forget that we acquired the National Assembly (as was) with a 50.3% YES vote in 1997. Although there some grumblings amongst the No campaign/some Tories for a little while, they eventually were reconciled to the fact that they lost. (It may have helped that the Tories returned 0 MPs out of 40 in Wales in the General Election in May 1997.)

        • scottish skier says:

          For sure. A narrow win does not mean it will be reversed, it just introduces that risk. If it really is the will of the people, then it won’t be reversed!

          What helped with the Welsh parliament was that it was Labour / Plaid / Lib policy so they were not going to try and reverse it.

          I suspect Scottish Labour and the Lib Dems would not try to reverse a Yes vote; at most try to go for a ‘soft scindy’ or something. Certainly not if it was a clear yes on 2014 type turnout.

          The Tories however would try every trick in the book.

          Anyway, two can play at the election plebiscite game was my main point. It should be used with caution as a result. It does seem those that talk about this a lot on the indy side don’t seem to realise it can work the opposite way, so we really need a Yes that is the settled will of the people.

          While Yes was seemingly clearly ahead last year, it’s 50/50 now within error, so what might have been won in some sort of snap vote might have been already lost, and we’d be back to a mess again for another few years.

      • denmylne says:

        completely agree SS, i see lots of folk on sm calling for udi and to void the treaty of union, walk out of westminster (45% !!!) etc. what they forget at all stages is the support indy has, and if it is even slightly less than 50% then there is no mandate for anything.

        while inm in favour of moving forward with making the draft indyref2 bill law, im also aware of what is happening elsewhere which, i believe, will increase support for yes.

        NI has an election in the spring, SF are presently looking like being the biggest party and with the DUP support crashing in the polls. its possible SF and SDLP will have 46 seats combined, the majority. If bojo rejects the NIP, and the ECJ, breaking the GFA, NI would descend in chaos and it isnt a big step for a swing 6% of the population to SF/SDLP to get 50.1% of the vote as well as the majority. If this happens, the GFA impells the SOS for NI to hold a unity poll. ????

        Biden would be on the irish side.

        probably a more imminent problem is Macrons presidential election in the spring, He lobbied the EU not to give in to bojo and grant concessions in NI border controls. he was also annoyed that bojo delayed introducing border controls in Dover from the EU until Jan, without consulting the EU as had happened previously.

        If border controls in calais have created the kent lorry park and closed down 11 M&S stores on the continent, its quite clear bojo cant do the same in dover without closing all Lidls and Aldis in the UK. Macron knows this, bojo knows this, I know this and so does everyone else, now the french fishermen have spotted bojos weakness, they intend, not to blockade uk goods coming into the eu, but to stop eu goods coming into the uk????!!!!. Macron has given bojo 13 days to comply. A real vote winner for Macron but it will spoil everyones xmas here. the daily mail will be having kittens.

        Scottish independence doesnt happen in a bubble, the next 6 months will be critical and we cant ignore what is happening elsewhere.

      • denmylne says:

        This could well have been a serious mistake though……. actually no it wouldnt have been. i followed my comment pointing out that i would hold the thought and make a decision closer to the election ie the manifesto launch, based on the current opinion polls. by that time, yes was down to 50% so given this, i would NOT have gone for an indy plebicite.

        my entire post was aimed at pointing out the obvious fact that we have never got 50%+ in any election or referendum.

        the ssrg, are presently proposing the scottish mps should walk out of wm and holyrood repeal the acts of union etc, effectively udi. when i asked their rep when we should have done this, he replied after the 2017ge.

        In theory, im not against this idea but in practice in 2017, the snp got 38% of the vote!!! which is why nicola didnt do this.

        if nicola and the snp had won 80%+ on the constituency vote in 2021, indyref2 bill would have been made law and would have been set for sept 2021.

        many alba supporters and alex and angus complain about how slowly nicola is moving forward with the indy campaign. but it isnt nicola who dictate the pace, it never has been, its the voters, the people of scotland.

        my point about angus’s tweet is he says nicola has blocked the option of an election plebicite when she has done no such thing. not including the option of an election plebicite within the draft indyref2 bill, doesnt block such a thing happening at anytime in the future. that’s impossible. if indyref2 bill is thwarted by bojo, come the next election, if public support showed it would win, then nicola could simply put the option of an election plebicite in the manifesto.

    • Capella says:

      The only person who’s trapped is Angus Brendan MacNeil. He has forgotten that there was a relentless legal and media smear fest going on up until the end of March, attempting to oust Nicola Sturgeon and have her, Peter Murrell and the women who complained about Alex Salmond put in prison. Much of the fodder was supplied by Alex Salmond.

      The amazing thing is how strong the support for Nicola Sturgeon an the SNP has remained throughout that battle. If the support for independence dipped then it is not surprising. Angus wasn’t as daft as Neil Hanvey and Kenny Mckaskill as jump ship. His defection now wouldn’t make much of a ripple. He has to stay in the SNP or lose his seat. Trapped.

      Complaining to a Swiss diplomat is just teenage angst. The Swiss have too much pride to do such thing.

      • grizebard says:

        I suppose he does feel trapped. Between his impatience (not least at being stuck in the hostile WM backwater) and wanting to keep his position. We’ll likely have another hard winter of Covid to get through, so making any kind of empty gesture now just to feel better but which will get swallowed up whole by “events” and ignored by the general public would frustrate anybody. It’s how we each deal with it that will either make or break us.

  23. Hamish100 says:

    I think responding to a foreign diplomat is just that.

    I think all the options available should not necessarily be aired to other countries.

    We can see the Tory unionists are gathering for a fight. We need to prepare ours and not with each other.
    Fully accept some individuals elsewhere would vote unionist before supporting the FM unfortunately.

  24. Dr Jim says:

    If Angus Brendan McNeill really believed half the wee bits of nonsense he comes out with from time to time he could’ve left the SNP and joined the Conquistador Objectors merry band but he hasn’t and he won’t, it doesn’t take a lot of thought to guess why he hasn’t

    Angus Brendan is a naughty boy sometimes but he’s not daft, he knows who’s going to win, he just likes to poke folk in the ribs sometimes, watch him smile each time he does it

  25. Dr Jim says:

    Question time from Glasgow to feature Actor Brian Cox Scotlands finance minister Kate Forbes Labour leader for the Tories in Scotland Anas Sarwar and wee Tory mouthpiece and toilet roll fetcher Andrew Bowie plus a couple of folk nobody ever heard of to make up the Tory numbers

    Let’s hope Brian and Kate are in the mood and ready for the avalanche of Toryness about to be unleashed upon them

  26. yesindyref2 says:

    Wasn’t Tom Harris that right wing actor playing the West Country vet – Bob Martin?

  27. Hamish100 says:

    So it’s not a 50/50 split then ?

  28. yesindyref2 says:

    50.0000000% + 1 vote is all that’s needed for YES.

    Don’t even think about giving the Tory Unionist cheaters democracy swindling headroom. They’re the only ones who want anything higher than that.

    Nobody in YES does.

    • scottish skier says:

      Tell that to those saying 50.0000000% + 1 in an election plebiscite is enough to undo indy!

      What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and the ‘Tory Unionist cheaters’ ken it fine well.

      If Yes gets 50%+1, it wins. But it needs to keep getting 50%+1 or greater going forward. That much is obvious.

      As an aside, 50%+1 would be 50.00002% in Scotland. 😉

      A’ll git ma jaiket…

  29. yesindyref2 says:

    As an aside, 50%+1 would be 50.00002% in Scotland.

    No.

    If you’re going to try to correct someone, you do need to actually get it right. You are wrong. The exact percentage depends on the exact turnout, hence why everybody writes it as 50% + 1, 50,000% + 1, 50.000000% + 1, or even 50.000000000000000% + 1, depending on how many zeroes we can be bothered typing. All are actually exactly the same statistically and mathematically.

    50% + 1 vote is totally unambiguous in statistical and mathematical terms. it means one vote more than half. It implies “at least”.

    If there were 3 votes and 2 were YES and 1 vote NO, that would still be 50,000000(to infinity)% + 1 vote.

    • scottish skier says:

      Easy tiger.

      I was just jokingly pointing out the max number of zeros possible based on the current electorate (May 2021). Actually correcting myself in some ways:

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2021/10/19/the-brexit-chickens-come-home-to-roost/#comment-157239

      My number isn’t wrong.

      That aside, as you say, 50%+1 is a Yes and would mean indy. At the same time, e.g. 50%+1 for unionists on a subsequent election plebiscite to reverse that would mean the union again.

      If electorate has the right to reverse their 2014 decision – which they absolutely do without question – the same applies in the case of their iref2 decision, be that Yes or no.

      The way to secure indy is not to get ‘50%+1 or more’, but for indy to be the settled will of the people so they won’t chose to reverse it.

      There isn’t a number that can be put on this; 50%+1 on the day could be just fine. However, the closer we are to 50%, and the lower the turnout, the more likely it is voters will reverse the decision, at least temporarily. This really goes without saying.

      But then fortune favours the brave while of course only fools rush in… pants.

      Ok, so best be brave, but not too rush in quickly… 🙂

      • Melb Don says:

        I admire much of what you state Scottish Skier, however one small point of contention in this comment, who would call a subsequent election plebiscite? Think carefully about this, as the SNP would still be in government until the first election of an independent Scotland, after which it would be, a fact, not a Tory Government in power. That would be near enough 5 years of an Independent Scotland. Seriously there is absolutely no scenario where any Scot’s Government would even contemplate an election to let an English Government ever rule Scotland again.

  30. Welsh_Sion says:

    Have a smile as Farage gets kebabed – something we won’t see on MSM on this side of the Irish Sea:

  31. Dr Jim says:

    If the representative from the monster raving loony party were to be on QT would the BBC see to it that 50% of the audience were supporters of that, and this is how the BBC treat the public as though they are stupid

    In England you would expect a balanced audience to be more Tory than anything else because that is what that country voted for, yet in Scotland every time there are these kind of ridiculous debates those in support of Independence are in the minority yet that is the elected democratic view of Scotland, we should not be defending the Independence position, because that’s what we voted for as a country, it’s the Tories Labour Tories and Lib Dem Tories who should be on the defensive as they are the political minority opinion

    If the audiences in Scotland were *balanced* by the BBC in that way, or on a first past the post basis as in England there’s be hardly any representation at all for their festering puss spewing boil of a union

    “One must never try to understand the English nor try to make them understand us as they are a breed apart and make no sense” (Chingachgook) Last of the Mohicans

    A fictional reference but is it nevertheless so damn accurate

    See James Fenimore Cooper who created this character and others, there are many references like this to the Imperial England globalist destroyers of worlds

    • grizebard says:

      Recently Fiona Bruce declared that the BBC deliberately select attendees to {ahem} “reflect local opinion”.

      {cynicism=on} Which is why we had all those posh Unionist speakers at that Dundee gig, I suppose. {cynicism=off}

      Whereas in fact all they need to do is exclude all those with connections to a political party and randomly select from the remaining genuine locals, and “job done”! (If that really were the intent, that is.)

  32. James Mills says:

    Why would anyone in Scotland even watch BBC Question Time ?

    • barpe says:

      Indeed!!
      I just watched ‘our own’ Debate Night from Aviemore, panel 4 to 2 against Indy (I include the chair!!), and the first few audience contributions all obvious Tory types.
      Switched off.
      Our colonial masters are in charge.

  33. Alex Clark says:

    The country of England is no barrier to Independence, it’s just another country. The people of England, the English are no barrier to Independence and we need not concern ourselves with them for they are not preventing Scotland from becoming an Independent country.

    The reality is that it is the people of Scotland yet to be convinced that independence is for them who are the people we must really talk about. Focus on the people of Scotland yet to be convinced of Independence and let England take care of itself.

    We do ourselves no favours by making Independence about what the English may think or what we may think of “them”. Let’s focus on our fellow Scots and then we might make progress.

    • grizebard says:

      I agree. In fact, I’m confident that the ordinary people of England are fair-minded enough, and when they see that a majority of voters in Scotland choose independence, they will also recognise that the game’s up for the Union. Some may be offended/angry and some may be sad, but just like us they will respect the decision and expect their politicians to honour it.

      The only people who will do anything not to respect the result are the selfsame Unionist shills here who keep calling for us to respect 2014 whilst simultaneously and shamefully disrespecting it by word and deed themselves.

      • Not-My-Real-Name says:

        My brother, a Scot by birth, lives in England, Cambridge, his partner is English and his son was born in England…they all support Scotland’s right to self determination and loathe the Tories.

        So yes lots of English people are decent and just like us..after all are we not all human first before nationality considered …however the media is definitely primed to support the Union from an English perspective and the majority of opinions are from those so called English political commentators who know nothing of Scotland but are given a platform to talk about it as if experts.

        The media and Unionist WM politicians are THE big problem…..no question…..hence the misrepresentation of reasons why Scots want independence…….and also the suppression of truth as to why it is feasible we could , as a nation, be independent.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      Alex, well said.

      I want Independence FOR Scotland, not FROM anyone. I bear nobody a grudge; it’s up to the People of Scotland to decide if we become Independent.

      At the moment it’s around 50-50, and we’re all enttitled to our opinion – and vote.

  34. “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable”. – John Fitzgerald Kennedy
    QT is a North Korean strength Fascists government mouthpiece.
    Bruce will haveher list of ‘interventions’ ready, a brief supplied by supplied by ‘friends of BBC Scotland’, ready to ‘Yes But’ , ‘Hang On A Minute’. and the like.
    Get Yer Andrew Neil Slap Down Bingo Card ready.
    ”The Respected Fraser of Allander Institute’, ‘The Scottish Government’s Own GERS figures’, and ‘The Scottish People don’t want another ‘ Referendum’, oh, and, ‘Once in a Generation’ will get big licks.
    Sarwar, millionaire dentist, whose sons are being groomed to lead in private schools, who is a board member in a sweat shop zerro hours minimum wage Cash and Carry warehouse, will wave the blood stained bird droppings Southern General babygro scandal in the air and SNP shite his way through the programme.
    Of course the audience will reflect the Glasgow people. We all live in million pound sandstone houses in Kelvinside or Jordanhill flats….and we are all good little monarchists..
    Bruce will have all the stats ready to stop Forbes in mid sentence.

    I have had enough.
    I wait for no man’s permission. And they are ‘men’.
    We’ve tried polite. It doesn’t work.
    Fiona Bruce is there for a good reason.
    Brexit?
    Och our beloved jocular PM ‘got that done’ ages ago.

    • barpe says:

      On the nail, Jack!
      It’s only a matter of how bad it will be, and I’m expecting the worst.

      • Someone mentioned BBC Jock Land ‘Debate Night’ above so through the wonders of i Player I dipped in to Stephen Jardine’s debate Night for a few minutes.
        From the get go Jardine and his plant, a young clean cut ‘professional’ with a ‘middle class’ Glasgow accent began a double act, obviously pre-primed.

        I scrolled ahead and picked up ‘once in a generation’. Jardine interrupting the SNP MSP, and a Unionist cohort uttering the usual ‘build back batter’ crap-a-doo-doo.
        Jardine is one of the half dozen or so Pair For Jocks who haunt Radio Jockland, running phone ins or tortuous issues like;_ Are you one of the 20% who held on to their childhood teddy bears.
        Rhoda Grant, who has never been elected by the people in the FPTP element of the Scottish Election system, but who is propped up by the corrupt FPTP system in Westminster, wanted to introduce a ‘right to Food’ Bill at Holyrood.
        Scottish Red Tories’ ambition?
        Vote for us and at least you’ll not starve.
        There is no way that any of us should have to allow this BBC garbage air time.

        What to do when your Latvian nanny leaves the UK?

        It seemed in the main like the usual well heeled BBC audience.
        Still I’m sure the 500 or so who tuned in enjoyed this formulaic Brit Nat silage.
        Fodder for dumb animals.

        • ‘Paid’ for Jocks.
          See me and ypographical terrors…

        • Not-My-Real-Name says:

          Well said Jack…I never watch debate night….as there is more than enough soul destroying contempt and disdain pumped out on telly towards Scots…..it’s the Baby Question Time supposedly an alternative to it’s BBC Mummy the English dominated t’other political programme also contemptuous towards Scots, Welsh, Irish, EU and everybody else who is not English under the pseudonym of so called ‘British’ ….

          If as you say someone actually said in the audience ‘once in a generation’ after everything re HGV driver shortage , NI Protocol , Carbon Capture betrayal , Johnson swanning off to Marbella, MP’s report on UK Government’s disastrous and deadly handling of pandemic ( coincidentally same week Johnson on Holiday abroad) AND Peter Stefanovic’s video online viewed by MILLIONS clearly showing Boris is a LIAR etc etc. etc etc etc….then I despair that there are Scots who STILL are so blinded by their allegiance to a corrupt and not fit for purpose UK led by Boris Johnson’s Tory government that they think saying ‘once in a generation’ is THE BIGGEST BADDEST thing that has EVER happened in their UKnotOK….then give me strength and let me scream.

          I am forced to concede that there is no helping these people…..masochists led by a sadistic UK government….well not us eh Jack…..

          Rhoda Grant ……who voted for her indeed…..right to food bill….well thanks to her precious Union we now have an excessive amount of foodbanks in Scotland ….Scotland an oil rich country which also is rich in other resources…..foodbanks….but hey Rhoda cool with that as long HER Union is maintained……right to food bill ….that this is even said in a rich country tells you everything about her allegiance and commitment to this cruel and not fit for purpose (non) Union.

          Tell me Jack do you know if you need to fill out a questionnaire before being an audience member of Debate night and QT….confirming you read either The Herald/The Scotsman, The Sun, Daily Express etc….watch GB News or BBC Reporting Scotland…..listen to GM Scotland on Radio or Talk Radio with Mike Graham, are in the fanclub of Dan Wooton, vote Tory or Brexit party, have attended a hustings given by George Galloway doing performance art as a cat drinking a bowl of milk ( which you paid to attend)…… cause none of these so called political shows EVER truly reflect fairly or accurately public mood more so in Scotland ……well that is…. not the public I know and read about on here and Twitter…..the ones they, the media and Unionist politicians, like to keep silent…..

          Keep the faith as there is more who are enlightened than blinded by ignorance……it’s just that as per the media prefers we and others like us are NOT heard by a majority…..Truth supressed and Lies promoted that’s the UK way…………

          Have a nice day Jack

          • Welsh_Sion says:

            NMRN,

            I was once a member of the QT audience down here in England and part of their procedure for enrolling (on-line) involves filling in a form on their website which asks, inter alia, if you belong to a political party and which one(s). This questionnaire is run by the private company Menthorn which holds your details for, I believe three years afterwards.

            If selected, you are then phoned by someone from QT and provide them with the two oral questions that you will ask during the recording.

            You arrive at the venue early. You supply your two questions in written format to someone from production. You listen to a few off-colour jokes from Dimblebore about bankers and how good the BBC hospitality is – paper plates, nibbles, fruit juice – and then sit down in the amphitheatre where the programme is filmed. You have a run through a couple of questions (other peoples’) with members of the audience playing panel members. (This is for us to see how the format works and for the sound and vision crew to get play about with their equipment o get the right sound/picture.)

            After an hour or so, the panel turn up and the programme starts. (I never got to ask my questions – Member of PC and SNP in England too easily identifiable for BBC tastes.) The questions asked and answered (or not). The panel goes home and so do you.

            My panel included Paddy Ashdown who after the programme came down and chatted with the audience and thanked them for coming. Ditto for Tony “Baldrick” Robinson (not a “Sir” then). The Tory and Labour politicos had already left the building.

            That was my experience of QT some years ago.

          • SEE WS account of QT below, NMRN.
            If memory serves, I couldn’t stomach going back in to Jardine’s Farce, it was a clean cut 18 year old who came up with the ‘once in a generation’ mantra. He ventured that since it would be 9 years inter Refs, then he must have lived two generations already.
            He was sat in the front and Jardine clearly was working with him.

            He was clearly handpicked, an offspring of one of the Programme’s Chums, clean cut healthy upper middle class big specimen of a lad, making his first steps to follow Sub Lieutenant (RN Failed) Andrew Bowie up the easy pole of Jock Blue Toryism.
            He’ll be elected President of the Tory Group in whichever Uni his parents send him to.
            I have no doubt that some QT audience members are picked from applications…but still with a Brit balance.
            But the Lads who were at the front clearly had been chosen and primed to present the ‘educated’ arguments for remaining a militarily occupied colony of England.
            These guys will always be Top Dog big earners, especially if they betray their fellow Scots to a foreign regime.

            • Not-My-Real-Name says:

              WS and Jack C

              Yes very interesting and informative…..though my tongue and cheek selection process seemed feasible……no..Ha Ha

              How you doing Jack…well I hope.

              Kate Forbes is on tonight and she is fabby….saw off DRoss on last BBC QT when in Scotland….

              Bowie on the other hand was useless when confronted by young people one time on the Debate show and even conceded ““Am I going to sit here and say that Brexit is perfect and your generation are going to reap the benefits? No I’m not”.

              He prefers to be confronted not confronted by BBC political presenter Union sycophants…..a ‘live’ audience with just one or two clued up audience members…..then he folds…..as hard telling same old lies to people who know you are lying……

              I see yon female Professor is on again tonight…..same one on Debate show last night…..what are the chances …..seems some ‘political’ ‘journalists’ who write in Scottish press are too stupid to get onto BBC QT panel….while their colleagues down south have regular slots as panel members on QT…..

              Apologies to WS never saw your comment until highlighted by Jack C

              Have a good day both of you

              • I’m fine, thanks for askin’, NMRN.
                Doing odd repaid jobs indoors at Chateau Collatin.
                needs must since Johnson cheap labour furriners have been sent packin’.

                I cannot take Sub Lieutenant (RN Failed) Bowie seriously when he drawls in that William Hague Soundalike put on accent he has cultivated.
                He is one plank short of being as thick as…

                He is there for one reason only..to use up precious oxygen.

        • grizebard says:

          Rhoda Grant is one of the typical Red Tory demons in their Mitigation Hell. No matter how bad it gets from London, no matter how much ordure is piled upon us or how much of our resources are snatched away from us, there will always be a Rhoda whose sole response is to tell the Scottish Government – no matter how deliberately constrained its powers – it has to “fix it”.

  35. Dr Jim says:

    One of the *new* trade ministers for the Tories *new* team just said to Drew Hendry in the Commons that he was under the impression Scotland did its own trade deals, to be *fair* he did say he stood to be corrected, you could see the shock on Drew Hendry’s face even with his mask on

  36. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    Sir Keir Starmer statement :

    “All powers short of independence COULD be transferred to Holyrood under a Labour review led by Gordon Brown”…….note the word ‘could’ in this statement which translated means ‘will probably not be (like last time) as we will never win an election against Tories but we have to say something to keep the UK under the Tories and the Scots onboard the (non) Union’……………

    Ah I see ……the same Labour Sir Keir S and Gordon Brown who are NOT in power at WM but think they have the power to say/do this….have I got this right…or have they got this wrong again…and they are doing it deliberately too………….

    So a new vow then…same old same old…..fool us once etc etc

    Desperate times calls for desperate measures…say desperate but pathetic seems more apt…….

    This is a Labour lesson in how to treat Scots like idiots…..cue the media reinforcing this message as if a NEW and BRILLIANT initiative……WOW……never been offered that before and they have even dressed it up this time using the word ‘independence’ albeit with the caveat of ‘short of’….so NOT independence as we understand it but a poor ill thought out and last ditch attempt to con the undecided amongst Scots once again…….

    My brain hurts….however my brain also WORKS….hence why I laugh at this statement and treat it with the contempt it truly truly deserves………….

    • Not-My-Real-Name says:

      “‘will probably not be (like last time) as we will never win an election against Tories but we have to say something to keep the UK under the Tories and the Scots onboard the (non) Union’……………”

      Sorry should have added even if Labour DID win an election they would NOT implement this…as if…..

      Just how desperate IS Gordon Brown to get into the HOL’s………

      • grizebard says:

        Well updated there. We saw how, post-indy 1, Labour did their utmost in the Smith Commission…

        … to veto everything that Bitter Together had promised during the referendum. Even more than any other of their Tory League chums. Instead of the “nearest thing to federalism” that Federal Broon assured us would be graciously bestowed upon us by a grateful Union, a reprieved and mightily relieved Union told us we could have power over road signs and shoulder the blame for setting income tax rates, and otherwise take a hike and be grateful for the stale crumbs they were tossing us off their table.

        Never again.

        Starmer, Broon and the rest of these duplicitous shysters can take their fatuous blank cheques and use them as toilet paper, because that’s all they’re worth.

  37. James Mills says:

    So , the choice is :

    Under the Tories -”One of the most powerful devolved administrations in the world ! ‘*

    (* Read the small print –
    Brexit will wrench you out of EU against your wishes ; you will NEVER get the UK Government that you vote for ; you will be subject to the most Right-wing Tory Government EVER ; there will be food shortages , fuel shortages , labour shortages …; you will be treated with contempt by your Union partner ; your SG health measures to combat a deadly virus will be constantly undermined by the incompetence of the UK Government ; your population will be priced out of energy in the most energy -rich country in Europe resulting in more excess Winter deaths than usual )

    Under Labour – ”Everything short of actual independence ! ”*

    ( Read the small print –
    Never going to happen ! )

    Haud me back !

  38. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    You know this anti English guff that is being misrepresented as MAIN reason some Scots want independence……indeed some today on Twitter stating Brian Cox on previous edition of BBC QT was anti English in what he was saying…..

    Well I remember in 2017 a certain BBC QT episode in Scotland where a certain ‘English’ person called Mark Littlewood was on the panel and he stated “I see no reason why Scotland can’t take it’s place as a proud independent nation” …..mind you if he was in BBC QT in another NON Scottish city not sure he would have said same thing…..and I also have no love for The Institute of Economic Ideas for obvious reasons…..but that subject is not my point in this comment…..my point is below to show the hypocrisy of Uber Britnats who condemn us as divisive and anti English are not averse to shouting down the English when it suits their agenda…..

    So a certain uber BritNat Historywoman tweeted this as a response to Mark’s above comment on BBC QT….

    ” @Bloodypolitics and these f*ckers from south of the border who wouldn’t have to suffer it talk it up.No words to strong”.

    Oh how pro English of her……but these words WERE too strong in the clear anti English sentiment and the clear message being BUTT OUT…OUR business NOT Yours Englishman…..but then it’s not is it….because she wants to maintain a Union which would include those she calls “f*ckers South of the border”…..how does that work then…..

    I rest my case……call people “f*ckers” from “South of the Border”…..well that’s as anti English as you can get is it not………

  39. Dr Jim says:

    This SNP slow roll out of the booster vaccination would have me worried but for the fact I’ve just received my blue envelope right on time exactly when this terrible slow SNP government said I would

    • Same here, Jim. Getting my ‘double jag ‘ (not jab, ‘flu and Covid booste rnext week, right on time.
      Looking forward to Jack Ross Bowie Duguid Lamont and NZ Murrell cutting my pension by 5% next year too, not.
      England is is a tail spin crash right now.

  40. yesindyref2 says:

    For those of you who have twitter (I’m not a twit), from the National:

    #ScottishIndependence4 trended with an incredible total of more than 100,000 tweets – and #ScottishIndependence5 could well top that, reaching more than 40,000 today already.

    The number increases by 1 each day to avoid appratenly, twitter downgrading it. Also I guess people know what to to with this:

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19663245.nicola-sturgeon-boris-johnson-handled-covid-pandemic-better/

    I’ve been told by 2014 NO voters that “Big Nicky” is and has been, way out in front.

    • Capella says:

      This poll result should cheer us all up YES 58% NO 42% fro the Express Ooctober 4 – 9.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCNEITDXoAUdvyC?format=jpg&name=large

      • Capella says:

        Some tweeters way that poll is from last year – there’s no date on it. If so, they kept pretty quiet about it last year!

        • scottish skier says:

          It will be the IPSOS MORI from October 2020. It actually says 59% Yes ex DK on Prof C’s WST site, but the tables have 58% as per the graphic.

          • Welsh_Sion says:

            I think SS has it:

            https://www.thenational.scot/news/18793584.record-public-support-scottish-independence-new-poll-shows/

            From the National: 14th October 2020

            According to wiki there hasn’t been an opinion poll on this question since 18th September 2021.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

            If “A week is a long time in politics” … what’s a month? 🙂

            • Capella says:

              This one’s interesting. Social Attitudes Survey shows a steady increase in support for independence from 27% in 1999 to 51% in 2019. Scots are realising that Devolution isn’t working.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence#Scottish_Social_Attitudes_Survey

              • yesindyref2 says:

                Thanks for that, I didn’t realise they were all summed up in the one place. An interesting figure is the 7% No Parliament from 2019, yet most of the posters you see on the likes of the Herald would want to abolish Holyrood (many not from Scotland at all even if they do have pretendy Scots names). I point out sometimes to them that they represent only 8% of the voters but they are of course entitled to their opinion, but it’s a minority one.

                There’s a 2021 SSAS doing the rounds. I had a letter and was going to do it presuming it was a form – paper or online, but it’s telephone and I would fall asleep after 5 minutes. Or “What do you have for tea?”, “Mmm, I’m hungry, bye now”.

              • scottish skier says:

                The trend from 2012 is quite stark.

                Support for Yes has just not stopped rising as people see that the UK has no intention of giving devo max, as desired by devo Scots, but instead is rolling back devo, i.e. doing the bidding of the 7%.

          • Capella says:

            Oh well! It was exciting while it lasted and does show that it can be done given the circumstances which I’ve forgotten. Certainly it was before the blizzard of the Harassment Committee and the Ministerial Code inquiry which may have dented confidence somewhat.

            • Not-My-Real-Name says:

              What about the poll done by David Lidington (when Lidington was part of Theresa May’s cabinet) that he blocked about ‘attitudes to independence and the Union’….and then the poll Michael Gove failed to release even after numerous requests by SNP MP Tommy Shepherd….and then even after UK Govt lost appeal to release ‘secret’ poll on attitudes to Union he STLL has not released data on poll….which BTW was a poll that was done via using over £500,000 of tax payers money which was allegedly assigned for Covid contracts……which Gove has subsequently denied that he signed off on…….

              Both obvs bad news for the Union….but they are feart to release details to confirm TRUE feelings felt towards (non) Union…..

  41. Dr Jim says:

    It seems like folk are worried again about the difference between anti England and anti English
    My mother was English born and bred in the midlands where I have half of my huge family, almost every one of them votes Tory despises foreigners of all colours and their knowledge of Scotland where the other half of my family live is zero nil nada nothing, they don’t care if we live or die or even exist on any given day of the week, they believe the Scottish part of their family ( me and my brothers sister children and grandchildren) are mentally deranged and under some oppressive regime by a dictator woman who screams all the time called Sturgeon who none of us actually vote for

    I do not blame one soul for being anti English if they feel that way because on the face of it the record of the treatment of others by the English is appalling and as I said, they just don’t care
    If it doesn’t happen in Mr and Mrs Englands street then it never happened

    The English are by and large pretty blind and deaf when it comes to the rest of the world except when their media tells them not to be then they become vociferously vocal on stuff beyond their understanding , Germans French Irish, the list goes on of the peoples and countries they don’t like when they’re reminded not to like them and what that shows is how controlled they are and how long they’ve been controlled for and by whom

    The government of England like it that way, they’ve spent hundreds of years developing a culture of fear of others that must be retaliated against before they get England, it’s a masterpiece of propagandised governance in how to terrorise a nation while filling it with a sense of powerful superiority at the same time, the result of which is as insular a nation as those same successive governments accuse the North Koreans or the Russians of, we see it used in America in the same way and of course why wouldn’t we, they adopted the same style after they kicked England out of their country, because it works

    The two most politically unpopular places in the world are Britain and America and we all know the reasons why, so when people say *I hate the English* it doesn’t really offend me at all because it’s a collective term like saying I hate rice pudding even though there are tons of different flavours and styles of rice pudding

    I don’t hate my English relatives but I do hate what they stand for and how much easier they are to manipulate than Scots or Irish or, well that’s another list isn’t it

    Be a little less worried about offending the English, because they don’t really care that much and they’re superior to the rest of us anyway, their government told them so, see how it works

    I have been offered asylum by my English relatives and they’re amazed I don’t want to take up their generous offer of safety from the red headed devil woman

    Their comments on Scotland and Scottish people don’t bother me either, because they have no understanding on the subject, they read the Express or the Mail or SKY BBC news so they can’t possibly know anything

    Despise the ignorance and who put it there, rather than the ignorant

  42. James Mills says:

    Perhaps we should set up a charity in Scotland ( with world-wide contributions accepted ) to ”Educate the English in good manners when dealing with ”Foreigners ” aka Non -English !”

    We could help them address their inherent lack of self-confidence and self-worth .
    These are masked by their belligerent and arrogant attitude when face -to-face with foreigners – especially when abroad , where these English traits are most apparent .

    But firstly , they need to be educated in the geographical make-up of the British Isles / Great Britain /The UK and N. Ireland / England .
    This cannot be left to the Englsh media who , sadly , share the same ignorance or deliberate arrogance when required to differentiate between England the ”rest” .

    ”National News ” from the BBC , ITV and Ch4 is correct in that they are basically talking to and about England but to them it also means Scotland , Wales and N.Ireland .

    Their use of the term ”the country” is oftentimes wrong but mostly just lazy when they are actually referring to the UK and N.Ireland . This may seem trivial but in the last 18 months has become life-threatening .

    This lack of distinction has been highlighted and its importance emphasised during the extraordinary Covid crisis. Failure by the media to distinquish between Covid measures that affect England only and those that are relevant to the rest of the ”awesome foursome ” ( to quote a major factor in the Covid mismanagement ) has almost certainly contributed to sickness and death .
    It is not unsurprising , then , that some people in England who visit Scotland ( and Wales and N.Ireland ) appear to think that what applies in England also applies in the rUK. ( masks , distancing etc..)
    They are victims of the ignorance of their media ( and their own ) but it has undoubtedly had the tragic effect of spreading Covid into areas where cases were previously low .

    So folks , if you can spare a copper or two ( old English currency – soon to be reintroduced to ”the country” ) for this worthwhile cause , please give generously .

    The Rest of the World will thank you !

  43. Capella says:

    Tom Gordon still working hard for the Union. Has he not got his OBE yet?

    • scottish skier says:

      England destroys Scots exports to the EU, ruining businesses, then we’re told that we’re relying more on trade with England, so should stick around.

      It’s nuts.

      We need to get ourselves outside the racist wall as soon as we can.

    • Welsh_Sion says:

      I take it that’s not you then, Capella:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Girl_Who_Loved_Tom_Gordon

      The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon (1999) is a psychological horror novel by American writer Stephen King.

    • Alex Clark says:

      He is making the case for Independence, the UK makes up a larger proportion of Scotland’s exports simply because the UK dragged Scotland out of the Customs Union and Single Market. Scotland as a result is poorer than it would have been because we are part of the UK.

  44. Malcolm H says:

    From the Guardian re Laura Kuenssberg stepping down.

    ‘As part of the reshuffle of leading BBC journalists, Jon Sopel is stepping down as North America editor and returning to the UK. He is tipped to be replaced in Washington DC by Sarah Smith, the current BBC Scotland editor and occasional Today presenter.’

    Rats / Sinking ship!

    • Legerwood says:

      Sarah Smith was for a time the Washington correspondent for CH4 news then she moved to the BBC

    • Alex Clark says:

      She is unlikely to be missed.

      • Tam the Bam says:

        Wonder who will get the Scotland Political Editor brief……The Rhinestone Cowboy?

        • Baroness Rape Clause?

          • Stephen McKenzie says:

            Jim Murphy is currently available and from what I can glean from Labour insiders at a bar in the Lords, is that Jim a “shoe in”.

            Jim’s track record exemplary record certainly goes before him, and to quote from BuzzFeed news in January 2015. “Jim Murphy has been “astonished” by how easy he’s found it to take on the SNP since he was elected leader of the Scottish Labour party”.

  45. Welsh_Sion says:

    Off topic, but I thought some of you might like (?) to see this:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCNGs5cWEAYjQuL?format=jpg&name=small

    • Alex Clark says:

      I was just a wee boy but I’ve never forgotten that tragedy.

    • Capella says:

      Yes, I remember Aberfan. Desperately sad day. We haven’t forgotten them.

    • iusedtobeenglish says:

      I remember coming home from school and finding my mother sobbing her heart out at the kitchen table. She’d just heard the news on the radio. The only other time I saw her cry was at my father’s funeral.

      Terrible day. As others have said, never forgotten.

    • Stephen McKenzie says:

      Although I was still in primary school myself, the shock of seeing the black and white TV images of the school buried in what to me looked like mud – I had no idea what slurry was, was very upsetting to me and my mother.

      I think our primary school assembly had prayers for the families and children of the disaster.

  46. Dr Jim says:

    I remember that terrible day very well and the faces of those folk who lost so much

  47. Old Pete says:

    It was a terrible, terrible day.

  48. Capella says:

    Tucked away on the Wales section of the BBC website. Not “national” news. But still, a very touching account from the survivors.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58874233

  49. Capella says:

    Popular American writer (who I admit I have never heard of) has an interesting insight on our “failed state” status. He dares to spell out what nobody in the UK can say out loud.
    In The National.

    …”all Europe knows that the cause of Britain’s woes is Brexit, a view that is “forbidden” in Britain. Labour’s Sir Keir Starmer refuses to come anywhere near saying Brexit is destroying Britain, and says he still backs it.
    The BBC has article after article questioning whether the ‘supply chain crisis’ has anything to do with Brexit, and a businesswoman even says that her interview on the shortages was edited to remove any mention of Brexit … the Conservatives who created this mess, of course, dare not mention the word at all.”writes Haque.

    All of this made Britain an Orwellian society: “He was the one who said, ‘In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act’.

    https://archive.fo/KjRty

  50. Alex Clark says:

    Apparently, the Queen spent last night in the hospital and returned to Windsor Palace today, never heard that on the BBC.

  51. Old Pete says:

    Did Glasgow citizens not vote SNP in all areas of government representation ? Well having watched Question Time you would never have thought so, Fiona Bruce and I quote her said ” Audience members were formed by the percentage of support of each party in that area ” apparently not in Scotland it would seem ?

  52. Capella says:

    Completely OT. A statue of Maria Callas in front of the Acropolis has been severely criticised for being “Ghandi in heels”. Which just goes to show that anything can be to object of someone’s bile.

    …the work commits the cardinal sin of getting her posture wrong. (says Michael Moussou)

    “Nothing could be less representative of Maria Callas, as no opera singer, not even a second-grade student at music school, would ever adopt such a pose with crossed arms in front of their chest,” he said, noting that to do so would “block voice production”.

    He has never seen her triumphant debut in Paris in 1958, glittering in her best outfit and jewels for the occasion, singing Casta Diva, her signature role, Bellini’s druid priestess Norma. Arms crossed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-TwMfgaDC8

  53. Tam the Bam says:

    Having just watched QT from Glasgow ..to say Im incandescent with rage at the disgraceful slur on Glasgow a member of the audience spat out tonight ..would be an understatement.

    “A city over run with rats and litter” was the smear and gleefully endorsed by Anas Sarwar.
    No doubt her GMB hubby is proud of her.
    Utterly vomit inducing.

    • grizebard says:

      God forbid that these duplicitous shysters should get anywhere near getting back in charge in Glasgow next May (the whole point behind this latest Union Front), but if they did, all these “dire problems” would magically vanish overnight.

      Frankly, I don’t think any of these rogues ought to be able to continue in political life until they have apologised on their knees to every single one of the female staff they so systematically abused for so very long, then cynically re-abused by exploiting them to attack their SNP successors for their own misdeeds.

      I truly hope that ordinary people aren’t fooled by this despicable shower of double-dealers, and use the forthcoming electoral opportunity to cast them back into well-deserved outer darkness and despair.

    • Capella says:

      Last time I was in Glasgow – at the last AUOB march before the Great Schism, it was a lovely clean, bustling, architecturally interesting place. Not a rat nor rubbish pile in sight, even after a march of over 60,000 people.

      That’s the problem for those unionist plants. Everyone knows from their own experience that these people are lying. Whether it’s the NHS, police, schools or just general social services, we all have direct experience.

  54. Dr Jim says:

    I’m just amazed that none of the audience on Question Time realise that the bin men and the train men and the bus men are all using COP 26 as a targeted political embarrassment strike against the SNP co ordinated by Anas Sarwar and his Labour union mates

    It makes you wonder where all these people are not getting their information from, and they still don’t seem to understand that the Scottish government do not have the powers these folk seem to think it does

    Is it stupidity, is it whiny impotence, is it laziness, or is it too long being ruled by someone else and being in the privileged position of being able to moan about it without ever having to take responsibility for it

    The people of Scotland get a parliament with miniscule authority then complain they don’t do as much as the parliament that withholds full authority yet they refused to vote for that full authority when they had the chance so they could whine all over again, but now at two parliaments

    Maybe I’m missing something, we’ve got a government ready to go but a people who want them to do it first then wake them up when it’s all done and it had better be perfect or they’ll whine about that too

    I’m pure dead fed up and tired of the whining

    • Dr Jim says:

      Christ on a bike I’m whining about folk whining

      • Tam the Bam says:

        The GMB & RMT are making a big mistake if they imagine their strike will command public support.
        It wont.

        • Anas Sarwar, and QT, with a plant in the audience. colluded in a coordinated smear, describing Glasgow as a rat infested litter strewn dump.
          The wee lass was clearly planted to maake this outrageous and lying statement about my City.
          Sarwar then pretended to be a Left Wing Militant Commie, rather than the Right Wing Tom Harris style Tory he is, and ‘blamed’ the Scottish government for the Fred Kite Up Ra Workers posturing of a couple of Shop Stewards, who are ‘threatening’ total disruption of our City because they can.
          ‘Everybody Out!’ like it’s 1963.

          Sarwar is a disgrace and no friend of Glasgow. My area is neither rat infested nor litter strewn.

          Fiona Bruce was at her smirking interrupting worst, clearly enjoying this insult..

          BBC Scotland? I’ll be glad to see the back of it.

          Sub Lieutenant (RN Failed) was at his nincompoop best on the bits I scrolled through.

          God, let’s get this show on the road.

          By the applause generated by the ‘impartial’ audience, it was the usual Brit Nat bias.

          This was broadcast to the UK,

          Glasgow is a rat infested litter strewn dump, so says Anas Sarwar, the Red Tory.

          Disgusting, lie, evil, and this utterly disgraceful smear will do untold damage to out great city.

          Imagine if a member of another city, say, Nottingham, declared their City to be a dump?
          There would be an outcry.

          I hope that millionaire dentist Sarwar and his GMB Unison Militant Commie pals are happy.

          They don’t give a fuck about the people of Glasgow.

          They are there to serve their English masters. So bring the City to a halt then blame the Bad SNP?
          Ragin’, beyond consoling.
          What low life these Brits are.

  55. Capella says:

    Labour has become a byword for lying. This from The National yesterday.

    SIR Keir Starmer has said Nicola Sturgeon has handled the pandemic no better than Boris Johnson as he launched an attack on what he described as her “appalling” record in power.

    “I think Nicola Sturgeon’s ­handling of the pandemic hasn’t been – if you look at the relevant numbers – it has not been better than ­Johnson’s,” Starmer told Scottish political ­journalists at a question and answer session in London.
    “She may have communicated differently but when you look at it, whether it is on the number of deaths, proportion of deaths and inequalities that have been exposed by it, or the Test and Protect has been a failure in much the same way as Track and Trace.”

    Well Sir Keir, we have looked at the numbers and the English numbers are dire. Ours are bad that is true. We have an open border with England and can’t prevent importing Covid. But the measures in place mean that numbers here are falling.

    I can’t believe that the leader of the Labour Party doesn’t have a quad of lackeys who can do the research for him, so he is aware that he’s lying. But he does it anyway.

    https://archive.fo/lTpBN

    • Alex Clark says:

      Starmer shows himself as being no different from the liar Johnso and risks pushing some more of what remains of Labour support in Scotland away from the party. They are already a spent force here and this type of behaviour does them no favours.

    • grizebard says:

      TBH, I don’t think he (or anyone on his staff) bothered to check. Never let the truth get in the way of another chance to Anglosplain about Covid.

    • JoMax says:

      They are truly desperate to salvage some of England’s dreadful reputation here and abroad by focussing attention on the ‘perceived’ shortcomings of others. They’ve been doing it with Europe forever, but they see Scotland as much more easy game, knowing so many Scots are still willing to be taken in by their rhetoric/lies/insults.

    • scottish skier says:

      Cumulative deaths per 100k as of yesterday, with % difference from England (as unionists love to compare).
      2.15 (0.00) England
      1.91 (-11%) Wales
      1.65 (-23%) Scotland
      1.39 (-35%) Northern Ireland

      Putting aside that Sir Keir is the ultimate head of the Welsh government…

      It’s hard to argue that being as geographically isolated from one of the countries that most greatly mismanaged outbreak (by global comparisons) was key to saving lives. People in N. Ireland have a lot to thank the Irish Sea for. It is that simple at a base level. Thank god the border was not ‘just a road sign’ or Boris would have another 1.4k bodies on his N. Irish pile. In total, if death rates were the same in the devolved nations as England, we’d be looking at another 5k dead.

      Of course it works the other way around. If England had managed things as well as Holyrood in the circumstances, 28k English lives would have been saved.

      That’s before we remember that pandemic control is almost entirely a reserved matter; borders, the economy, borrowing, welfare/furlough, vaccine licensing, lockdowns (even with new laws giving Holyrood powers here, you can’t close businesses without furlough)…

      In light of that, it’s nothing short of miraculous that the devolved governments, with almost no powers other than for treating victims (NHS), managed to save so many more lives compared to the government with full sovereign powers / every tool in the box on hand.

      Either Keir Starmer knows all this but doesn’t acknowledge it, making him a sick and twisted man using deaths to score political points, or he doesn’t, so isn’t fit to run England never mind the UK.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      I suspect that will have gone down like a lead balloon with even the most loyal Labour supporters, how on earth can they pitch for party support when the leader is brazenly lying to a public the majority of whom know the facts despite all the media and political shenanigans to hide them.

      • Alex Clark says:

        This was my immediate thoughts as well, a lot of Labour supporters gave credit to Nicola Sturgeon for her handling of the pandemic and the clearer message. They will know the reality of the comparison of cases and deaths for Scotland and England.

        Telling them that Scotland might just as well have been under Johnson’s control of health rather than the Scottish government just won’t wash.

  56. Dr Jim says:

    Sky news says HM Queen Elizabeths duty to rule comes from God and she will work to fulfill that role

    I’m more than a tad uncomfortable with that kind of language to say the least
    When folk talk like that about people who have had the most comfortable softest life imaginable with the best doctors on hand 24/7 and most likely pharmaceutical chemical enhancements engineering longevity of life, that’s worrisome madness emanating from the British news propagandists that’s very high on the silly scale

    • grizebard says:

      Given HRH’s evidently increasing frailty, methinks the media are all beginning to get their coverage ready for circumstances in which we will hear a very great deal more of that kind of thing. I’m actually beginning to wonder if a wise reason for slightly delaying the move to IR2, besides a potentially-escalating pandemic over the coming winter, is to get all that ballyhoo behind us first.

  57. Arthur Thomson says:

    It’s nice to see Labour continuing with their policy of alienating normal people. They are successfully exposing themselves as liars who cannot be trusted to say or do anything worthwhile. Starmer, I must admit, has given a bigger boost to their downward trajectory than I thought possible.

    No-one in Scotland who continues to support these charlatans can any longer claim to be different from or opposed to the Tories. That includes the Labour elements who have cynically hooked onto the independence movement, sprinkling their lies within their feigned support, in the hope of undermining it from within.

    I don’t watch or read the media propaganda, that the Brits pump out daily, because it just makes me angry 😠 and distressed in equal parts and that is self destructive. I despise Starmer, Sarwar, Brown and the rest of the Labour liars in exactly the same way that I despise their Tory counterparts and their mouthpieces in the media. I console myself with the knowledge that this British approach to undermining Scotland’s drive for independence is exactly the same as their failed attempts to thwart all the other people across the world 🌎, who succeeded in removing British hands from their neck. All those countries had their Sarwars, Browns, Darlings etc. who were prepared to lie, take bribes and sell their souls for their British owners for personal gain. But ultimately they failed to stem the tide of decency as more and more people saw through their appalling lies.

    It’s painful and it’s slow but it’s coming yet for all that.

    • grizebard says:

      I think we just have to accept that a successful political movement will inevitably attract some bandwagon jumpers who have their own hidden agendas. (You might even say that the existence of such people is a fair measure of that success!) However, provided their dubious influence doesn’t muck things up beforehand, the achievement of a thriving multipolar political environment in a restored country will eventually sort that all out.

  58. scottish skier says:

    ‘The English’ claxon.

    Deeply offensive title surely? Lorna Slater was piled on for using that term.

    https://archive.md/1F55r

    Scots ‘worry more about unfairness’ than the English

    You don’t need surveys for this; just see election results!

    That aside, it would be interesting to know how views broke down based on people’s nationality [i.e. free choice national identity* in the absence of passports].

    British [identifying] unionists in Scotland are very keen to point out that they hold very similar views to English [sic British] people socially/culturally/politically; this being one of their key arguments for the union.

    In that case, you might expect results for this subgroup in Scotland to closely match results for England. If so, it would of course mean Scottish nationals (self-identifying) diverged even more here from English/British nationals than at first appearance; the data for Scotland being a product of the views of Scottish and British nationals (and those with dual nationality) combined.

    Unfortunately with the BSAS and SSAS, you don’t always get such data breakdowns as you do in the census.

    Scotland is quite unique in this aspect, i.e. it is a country which has two possible main ‘nationalities’ for residents. To understand such socio-political data, you need to account for this as fundamentally governs everything here, from party political / social attitudes to independence support. It’s why the BSAS, SSAS and census all seek such data.

    —-
    *For the benefit of the blood & soil claxoners

    https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/census-results/at-a-glance/national-identity/

    The 2011 census asked people what country or countries they felt an affiliation to.

    National identity is not tied to ethnicity or country of birth. A foreign citizen living in Scotland is free to choose ‘Scottish’ as their national identity.

    • grizebard says:

      Indeed, and (just as in the time of Bruce) it’s self-asserted national identity (and the human rights that come with it) that we need to focus on, not spurious concepts like “race” and “racism” [hint, hint].

      • Dr Jim says:

        One wonders if prisoners in jail care about the nationality of the warden, it seems if the British identifying Scottish prisoners have an English jailer they’re quite happy to accept that as long as the Scottish prison officers run around mitigating for the results of the ill treatment legislated by the British English wardens

        Maybe it’s the *principle* that only one’s *betters* can jail you that’s most important

      • scottish skier says:

        LOL, but these are not spurious concepts, but are based on the international human rights laws.

        https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/equality-act/protected-characteristics#race

        Refers to the protected characteristic of race. It refers to a group of people defined by their race, colour, and nationality (including citizenship) ethnic* or national origins.

        While race used to be more defined by e.g. skin colour in history, it’s certainly not today by any academic / scientific standard, but any grouping outlined, including e.g. Scots (self nationally identifying). So something ‘anti-Scottish’ is just as racist as something ‘anti-black’.

        Deep down, England/Britain’s reluctant and slow response to declining British identity in Scotland (over the past 70 years or so) is the cause of the constitutional crisis. As Scots have increasingly ceased to self-identify as British (in whole or in part), leaving them with only their Scottish identity, so they seek equality as the Scottish people. This can only lead to one thing if it continues. If the Scottish nation / people are not treated as an equal in the UK based on ‘one nation one vote’ ‘(as in the EU) it / they will eventually vote for independence to achieve this equality.

        Ultimately, if we all saw ourselves as British, there’s be no ‘democratic deficit’ and WGD would have a very wee audience. If we were ‘all British’, then one brit one vote would be fine in principle. Which is why the likes of Alistair Jack’s ok with it.

        The EU understands this; it could never survive unless all members are equal, from the minnows to the big states.

        Hud tae haud back there from making it too long! 🙂

  59. Capella says:

    More Labour/Herald propaganda.

    • grizebard says:

      I’ve always suspected that Ferret is a Labourite front. Facts are facts, but they always seem to end up serving an obvious narrow party agenda like this. Labour Jockland’s equivalent to all those right-wing “think tanks”?

      • yesindyref2 says:

        I’ve reluctantly got to defend the ferret dot scot, having checked it out thoroughly after articles in the National 2 or 3 years ago or more. I guess it’s what I’d want the media to be like – ruthless and truthful, regardless of political flavour. If I won the euromillions I’d probably donate loads, including money to obtain, input, process and model, statistics, the kit and expertise to do that.

        The origins of its people are mixed but include the Herald, Sunday Herald when it was pro-Indy, the National and the Sunday National – amongst the i, Record, STV and BBC and the Grun, and others.

        https://theferret.scot/about-us/

        Rob Edwards was one of the founders and I’ve happily criticised some of his articles, but his heart is definitely in the right palce, and I used his material way back to initially just provide balanced info to a debate over CCS at Hunterston, and then oppose it as it turned out it was only 25% CCS as the target to start and that wasn’t even guaranteed – it could have started just burning coal and kept going doing so (I read the small print).

        https://www.robedwards.com/2009/10/unmasked-the-billionaire-tax-exile-behind-hunterston-coal-plan.html

        But yes, we should always be suspicious, never rest, never change. And The Truth Shall Set Us Free. Even if we don’t always like it.

        • grizebard says:

          I recognise and understand what you’re saying, which is why I was slightly hesitant to write what I did in the first place. But right now any focus that is isolated on the evident wrongs of Scotland trapped semi-powerless within this damned Union is necessarily going to provide useful ammunition to the usual suspects who are happy to (mis)use it, and who themselves have provably little respect for any joined-up truth. Everything right now is political, and it seems such a shame that we need to have John Robertson around as well to provide the very necessary wider picture.

          • yesindyref2 says:

            I wrote my second reply before seeing yours 🙂

            Yes, I had seen the Hearld article this morning and couldn’t be bothered commenting. Day 4 indeed of the Herald on its mission to show Scotland as being sh1t.

            So I re-read it and noticed the by-line of shame:

            By Jamie Mann, The Ferret

            The beauty of it all is though that we live here, as do 5.4 million, and more and more people will notice the distorted bias.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        I didn’t realise the article was actually written by someone from the ferret – I presumed it was just the Herald distorting it.

        Very shoddy and distorted work and I would withhold that imaginary donation.

        • grizebard says:

          Yes, the seemingly co-ordinated messaging, timing and Scotland-only targeting are very revealing. At least for those able and willing to see it.

          • yesindyref2 says:

            Typical. I make a defence, only to find out they’ve totally made it all up.

            “Water quality is now in good or better condition in 87% of Scotland’s water environment. This is up from 82% when we published the second RBMPs. [20`15]”

            https: // www. sepa. org. uk/media/591408/draft-rbmp-three . pdf (remove spaces)

            Perhaps they’re sacrificing long-term credibility for short-term gain – COP26 has brought a lot of this out of the woodwork, but after COP26 is over hopefully the holes are treated and the woodworm will have nowhere to slither.

            I daresay to keep its reputation intact, the ferret will ask the Herald to publish an urgent retraction “We misunderstood”.

            • grizebard says:

              As I said, everything is political now. And what I only implied was: most everything is consequently tainted now.

              “Perhaps they’re sacrificing long-term credibility for short-term gain” – the very leitmotiv of the Unionist movement in all its hydra heads these days, wouldn’t you say?

              Trouble is, any source only has to lose trust once, and it’s almost impossible to regain it again. But for Unionism it’s “do or lie”. Losing for them is an existential dead end, so to prevent that, no bridge need be left unburnt.

      • Bob Lamont says:

        Whether the distortion was by the Ferret or the Herald is secondary to a BTL comment I thought nailed it superbly-
        “Just back from speyside, didn’t see any evidence of this, also been plenty other places in Scotland this summer and didn’t see anything either. Really Ramping up the climate propaganda paranoia just in time for cop 26.”

    • Welsh_Sion says:

      All these bad news stories about the hellhole that is Glasgow and how polluted Scotland is … just before COP26.

      Impeccable timing by the MSN, methinks.

  60. Welsh_Sion says:

    In other news:

    https://nation.cymru/news/new-union-unit-has-met-but-uk-gov-refuses-to-disclose-further-details/

    New ‘Union Unit’ has met but UK Gov refuses to disclose further details

    22 Oct 2021 2 minute Read

    The UK Government has confirmed that new Union Strategy Committee has met but it has refused to disclose any further details.

    The secretive Cabinet committee was established in February as a replacement for the Union Unit which had become embroiled in bitter infighting, losing two of its leaders in two weeks.

    The National Scotland has previously requested details from the UK Government about the committee through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request. But the Cabinet Office refused to even confirm or deny if any meetings had taken place.

    However, Michael Gove, the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, has now confirmed that the committee has met.

    […]

    __________

    “How are things at the Campaign for freedom of information, by the way?”
    “Sorry. Can’t talk about that”

    Life imitating art imitating life, methinks.

  61. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    Saw a clip on Twitter of Tory MP and member of notorious ERG just said on TALK radio the following :

    “We cannot allow the liberties of the people of this country to be based purely on managing NHS capacity…I think if we cross that Rubicon we end up prioritising healthcare above everything else.”

    “we end up prioritising healthcare above everything else.”…………..

    Digest that….and then think of the audience member ( I did not watch QT but saw a clip on Twitter) who accused the Scottish Government of putting a “sticking plaster” over things……. as opposed to the UK Govt leaving an ‘open wound’ over everything that is……….oh and causing the wound in the first place ……

    By all accounts BBC QT did last night what they always do in Scotland….load the audience with Unionists and Unionist party political activists while those …very few…in the audience who support Indy and the SNP are unfortunate in not being selected via a MAJORITY to ask a question or make a point when Fiona Bruce points her pen towards the audience….what are the chances that the MAJORITY who are selected…just happen to make negative SNPbad points….well chances are excellent it seems….par for the BBC course………..

    Any fair minded Scot and Glaswegian watching last night would be amazed that , by a majority, the audience were not demolishing the current fiasco created by the Tory UK Government aided by a compliant UK Labour who according to Sir Keir Starmer ” supported the government” time and time again while both attack the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon and treat the Scots like idiots and with contempt…. as tis those who live in Scotland who VOTE for the SNP in case Keir and Boris forgets this pertinent fact……………..

    If it looks like propaganda….and talks like propaganda…it is propaganda…and that is BBC QT whenever in Scotland…..the same Scotland that votes for an SNP government, a majority of SNP MP’s in Scotland….and as we are talking about Glasgow an SNP elected council……but on BBC QT no reflection of that is represented in it’s audience whenever in Scotland or indeed as last night when in Glasgow……

    I hazard a guess that MORE people in Scotland who watched last night’s episode are angrier at the BBC than the SNP………so #BBCBigFail…another one…..

    Indeed a current Herald newspaper poll that is running until 28 October on who has handled Covid better has currently Nicola Sturgeon at 76% and Boris Johnson at 13% with 10% at neither…..I am sure some of the audience last night added to the 13% for Boris or the Labour plants added to the 10%…..

    Not to worry if they, the BBC, continue to intentionally misrepresent the public mood and deviously misrepresent public opinion in Scotland the it will only serve to alienate Scots viewers against the BBC and NOT against the actual reality of living in a country led by the SNP……if you try to present a false reality that is NOT a true reflection of what is actually happening …while ignoring the Tory and Labour incompetence being played out in England……then people are not daft they can see they are being played and they know why….to stop independence…..

    Memo for the BBC and all Unioniists ” If you have to convince someone to stay with you then they have already left “………..

    #ScottishIndependence6

    • Welsh_Sion says:

      “we end up prioritising healthcare above everything else.”

      ________

      In the same league as,

      “Never mind life expectancy. Never mind cancer outcomes. Look at wages.”

      Same political party.

      Are you STILL voting Conservative, you lurkers?
      Are you YES yet?

      • Dr Jim says:

        A Prince among clown princes

      • Not-My-Real-Name says:

        Indeed WS

        The Tory MP BTW was Steve Baker…..member of same party that Andrew Bowie was defending last night on BBC QT……

        AND I am sure no one in the QT audience last night would have night mentioned Boris’s heinous quote you highlighted above…or the pig culling via Tory Brexit, lack of NHS staff via Tory Brexit, lack of HGV drivers via Tory Brexit, Tory plans to replace NI Protocol via a Brexit we were all told was done yet patently clear tis NOT done, lack of workers in care homes via Tory Brexit, lack of hospitality staff via Tory Brexit, VIP fast lane to awarding Covid contracts for Tory donors,, damming MP cross party report on Tory incompetence and deadly mistakes on dealing with Covid pandemic ,Tories breaking ministerial codes and keeping their positions, Tories breaking Covid rules with no consequences, removing UC uplift while awarding banks tax concession, Tory MP’s voting to not penalise English water companies for dumping raw sewage into English rivers, fisherman shafted via Tory Brexit, farmers shafted via Tory Brexit….this is not an exhaustive list BTW on Tory Brexit fiasco and Tory policies…..not forgetting Labour’s involvement in their dereliction of duty towards voters in failing to hold this Tory Govt to account or exposing Brexit as a failed and catastrophic policy for their , the Labour Unionist party, UK …..their UK is imploding but Keir Starmer once more fails to address the Tory Brexit Elephant in the room and instead attacks the wrong target….Nicola Sturgeon………to win over English Brexit voters as he, like Boris J , knows Scotland is lost to them and their respective parties…….so they pander to and aim for English votes to rule at the English parliament aka WM.

        What an absolute shower they all are……………..

        • Not-My-Real-Name says:

          “AND I am sure no one in the QT audience last night would have night mentioned”

          “night mentioned ”

          * ” actually mentioned”

    • grizebard says:

      The way I see it, people who are settled in their opinions (political or otherwise) can take quite an accumulation of unforced facts before their view changes. Rather like a chemical reaction, there is in effect an “activation threshold” that has to be overcome before any change happens. Before that, contrary opinions are summarily dismissed and disregarded.

      What we’re seeing here from the BritNat media and politicians like Starmer are rather desperate attempts to raise that threshold while they’re still well-received, whether true or (as is mostly the case with indy) distortions or lies. Some people will never change, alas, but for others, while this can hinder their belief transition for a while, it can’t prevail for ever against a rising tide of accumulating reality. And as you say, the further out these propagandists push their shoddy boat, the faster people may come to perceive the deception.

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