Scottish independence: the Tories’ worst nightmare

The Conservatives, as we all know, have a deep and abiding aversion to giving government money to those they deem poor or feckless – although of course if you are rich and feckless that’s quite a different matter. The Tories fall over themselves to give tax breaks, grants, and civil list payments to the obscenely wealthy even as they snatch a measly £20 a week away from the poorest families in the country and refuse to pay for school meals for kids living in poverty. These modern day Scrooges who believe in squeezing the low paid and the poor in order to subsidise the wealthy who support and fund their party are entirely transactional when it comes to the expenditure of public money, they only support it when it provides an immediate benefit for themselves.

These are people who have slashed the foreign aid budget and who refuse to pay the full rent in a social housing home where there is a spare bedroom. Yet they also insist loudly and vociferously that Scotland is a massive drain on the UK Treasury requiring the transfer of billions of pounds of English taxpayers’ money in order to keep those ungrateful Caledonian natives in deep fried heroin mars bars and the worst state pension in Europe. And we are supposed to believe that they do all this out of charity and altruism, seeking nothing in return even though Scotland remains stubbornly immune to the dubious charms of Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and so resistant to voting Conservative that the patrician idiot Alister Jack was their best option for the post of Scotland Secretary and the remaining Scottish Conservative contingent make your mad alcoholic uncle’s Facebook page look like a bastion of logic, wit and reason.

Of course it is a lie that Scotland is an economic basket case utterly dependent on the largess of Westminster and uniquely incapable among the nations of northwestern Europe of providing a decent standard of living and adequate public services for its citizens. Scotland has an embarrassment of natural and human resources and there is every reason to believe that an independent Scotland freed from the warped tax and spend priorities of Westminster could marshal those resources far more efficiently to provide the people of Scotland with a higher standard of living and better public services than they currently have as a part of the United Kingdom.

However the real reason that the Conservatives are so desperate to hang on to Scotland has got nothing to do with what is best for Scotland. The Conservatives care as much about what is best for Scotland as Johnson does about taking personal responsibility for his own failures, or indeed for his own children. What is best for Scotland doesn’t even enter into their consideration, or their awareness for that matter. If they had any consideration for Scotland at all they would not have imposed a damaging hard Brexit on Scotland, a Brexit which we learned this week has had a catastrophic effect on Scottish exports, which have dropped 14% in the past year alone and there is still no sign of the much vaunted trade opportunities which the Conservatives promised us.

The reason the Conservatives want to keep Scotland has everything to do with their own Anglo-British nationalism. Scotland is of course a highly convenient site to park the UK’s nuclear Viagra, the trident missiles that allow Anglo-British nationalist politicians to pretend that the UK is still a global power and not just a tame adjunct to the Pentagon. The loss of Scotland would most likely bring about the loss of the UK’s military bases on the Clyde and that in turn would threaten the UK’s claim to a permanent seat on the UN Security council and the veto this gives the UK on UN resolutions.

Scottish independence has the potential to set off a chain of events all of which would do serious injury to the ego of British nationalism and make the delusional myth of British exceptionalism impossible to sustain. Scottish independence could make the reunification of Ireland more likely. It would undermine the claims to Britishness of those in the north who base their British identities on their family origin in Scotland as well as creating in an independent Scotland another country with a strong interest in finding a permanent solution to the problems created by the British state on the island of Ireland.

Scottish independence would also put rocket boosters under the campaign for Welsh self-determination, and create an empowered and enthused independence movement in Wales.

The independence of Scotland could have as its eventual outcome an England shorn of the countries and territories that Anglo-British nationalists regard as appendages properly ruled over and dictated to by Westminster. That would be an England which was unable to maintain the Anglo-British conceit of greatness. It would be a country of just 130,279 sq km (50,301 sq miles), smaller than Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Spain, Italy, Greece, Romania, Belarus, or Bulgaria, and with 56 million people it would have a smaller population than France, Italy, Germany, or Turkey. Furthermore it would be an England which had alienated itself from its EU neighbours.  Even with the extra clout provided by Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland the UK has failed to find a post-Brexit role for itself. That’s a task which will be so much more difficult when England is stripped of what Anglo- British nationalists see as its last possessions.

When the Tories warn that Scotland is too small too poor and too powerless to go it alone, it’s really their fears for England that they are airing. An independent Scotland wouldn’t be going it alone, one of the most pressing reasons for Scottish independence is so that Scotland can restore and rebuild the close ties with Europe that Anglo-British nationalists severed with Brexit. Scottish independence would leave Brexit England small, isolated and alone, unable to avoid the truth that it’s neither great nor exceptional and facing the realisation that it is utterly incapable of imposing its will on other countries, even the smaller nations of this archipelago. Many supporters of Scottish independence want independence in order for Scotland to be a normal country. Being a normal country is what England’s Conservative Anglo-British nationalists fear above all else. That’s what England would be after Scottish independence, and that’s why it’s the Tories’ worst nightmare.

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80 comments on “Scottish independence: the Tories’ worst nightmare

  1. barpe says:

    A superb summing up of what the Tories reasons to block our Indy movement actually are.
    It is England that would bear the brunt of us leaving this disjointed union.

    • Christopher Rosindale says:

      Paul has superbly stated what I have been saying for months, and explaining better than I did why we have to attack such a weakness in the Unionist’s argument.

      A debate on the future of England, given the growing disinterest in the Union among Tory/Brexit voters, could be lethal for the Tory Party. If the idea of English independence takes hold among at least part of their core vote, it could split it, with nightmare consequences for their future election prospects. This is why they held the Brexit referendum in the first place, because Nigel Farage was posing the same threat prior to 2015, and they held the referendum to try and squash him,

      But it didn’t work……

      Right now, the Tories can easily ignore our desire for a referendum because they are too scared of losing it, and their core vote is not that bothered about it. If however, they are faced with a growing split in their core vote over Scottish Independence, sold as English Independence from Scotland, then they are in a much more vulnerable position. They may be forced to take the same gamble as in 2016, in case someone like Farage, or even Farage himself, tries to wag the Tory dog by exploiting the issue for their own political ends.

      The Yes movement must now attack, and wind-up, the Tories over this issue. The most deadly way, potentially, would be to spell-out the ways in which Scottish Independence would benefit England, and the Tories themselves. And then keep pushing it at their core voters….

      See how they react. It could be very interesting.

      • Hamish100 says:

        It seems your comments have wound up more than the tories- or maybe independista in scozia on another blog is just another Tory making up 2/3 of all comments.Not a happy person -on anything.
        Still, I think the potential tactic of calling for English independence could work. How could the brexiters refuse. They are destroying their DUP base in Ireland. We know labour is just kicking the can down the road over federalism. We must ensure we don’t fail the country this time. 2014 tactics = failure.
        I think 2022 is maybe a goer over 2023 judging by runes.

        • Alec Lomax says:

          Independenzia for Scozia a Tory troll ? Surely not ! Mind you, he spends more time attacking the SNP than he does the Tories. So there may be an element of truth in that insinuation

      • > The Yes movement must now attack, and wind-up, the Tories over this issue. The most deadly way, potentially, would be to spell-out the ways in which Scottish Independence would benefit England, and the Tories themselves.

        Oh I like this.

        If there was a growing English independence movement, it would help us greatly. The government would have to simultaneously argue that it does and does not subsidise Scotland.

  2. Alice says:

    Thinking back to Edward Heaths shambles ….putting hot water bottles wrapped in towels into my newly born baby’s cot ….lighting our way to bed with candles …..sweating Norman Lamont announcing mortgages to be raised to stratospheric levels, Thatcher a very evil presence who along with her pals appeared to get a buzz from persecuting the sick and the poor, John Major back to basics but not for him or his Tory pals , Cameron and Osborne ,horrendous pair , Rape clause Davidson hanging about the Lords getting money for nothing. Johnson our Trumpian idiot ….how many have died because of his and his pals handling of Covid?

    At this moment Scotland can’t seem to find a way out of this horror… we really need to.

  3. grizebard says:

    “Too wee, too poor”: oh yes indeedy, it’s projection!

    This argument is increasingly unwinding, both here and down south. Our southern cousins are increasingly demanding we be made to live within {ahem} “their” means – so watch out, unthinking “status-quo” solidarity believers – while we here are increasingly wondering “if we’re such a dreadful drain on our neighbours, why on earth are they so desperate to stop us from leaving?”…

  4. cjmasta says:

    I’ve thought it for a long time, much of the dire warnings they tell us will befall an independent Scotland are actually their own fears for England. Classic projection and a good insight into what they really think!

  5. Legerwood says:

    I doubt the loss to the rUK of its nuclear weapons would affect the position of rUK as a permanent member of the UN Security Council. Possession of nuclear weapons was not a prerequisite for a seat on the Security Council as a permanent member when the UNSC came into being in 1945. Being one of the ‘victors’ in WWII was the entry requirement for a permanent seat. At the time the UNSC came into being in 1945 only one of the permanent members, the USA, had nuclear weapons.

    So having or not having nuclear weapons would be unlikely to affect the rUK’s permanent membership. From time to time the UNSC has debated increasing the number of permanent members and some of the states considered eg Brazil, Germany, do not have nuclear weapons.

    RUK might lose its seat if it was not recognised by the UNSC as the successor state. When the USSR broke up the Russian Federation was recognised as the successor state and thus retained its seat as a permanent member.

    The argument about the nuclear weapons and retaining the permanent seat is a false one. Retaining the permanent seat will be decided on other criteria which will define whether rUK is the successor state.

  6. Hamish100 says:

    Isn’t the Republic of Ireland on the security council?

  7. James Mills says:

    Independence for England ? Why ? They already have it ! They have always enjoyed it .

    The Union in 1707 did not dent this independence .

    England with a population of 7 million ”in union ” with a country of 1 million did not represent a lessening of its independence.
    Our parliament was dissolved while their’s , to all intents and purposes , continued – with a built in majority – which has only increased over the years .

    As to the English ”fearing the loss of Scotland ” ? I do not think that many in England lie awake at night , tormented with the fear of losing their union with the Scots .

    Why ?

    Propaganda !

    Throughout my life ( without being conscious of it for a long time such was the insidious nature of it ) the UK press and the BBC in particular have projected a vision of Scotland and the Scots ( and the Welsh and N.Irish too ) that portrayed us as being somehow not as good as their southern neighbours .

    We were taught English history in school – very little Scottish – and English poetry and English literature ; we were subjected to film after film where England fought the Second World War – and won ; for decades the BBC did not have a Scottish accent on its news programmes ; politically all decisions were taken in London – geographically as far from Scotland as it was possible to be .
    And our currency was ridiculed in England as only the Bank of England notes were ”proper” money .
    And long into the 20th C the Union flag was proudly flown as the English flag !
    And the Queen of England came to wave at us now and again !

    Scotland was portrayed as a distant land , where the accents were ridiculed on radio/TV/Cinema ; where people were unhealthy , alcoholic and often violent ( though this was useful in recruiting for the army, it appeared ) ; where those who had any talent left and migrated to the south for a proper career .

    It was no accident that in the 2014 referendum Project Fear had a telling effect on many older Scots in particular as they had been almost brain washed from birth to accept that they were not ”genetically programmed ” to run their own affairs .
    The Better Together Campaign may not have invented the slogan ” Too Wee , Too Poor , Too Stupid ” but it was built on a lifetime of Scots being made to feel that that was their standing in the UK and , for some, was very effective .

    Yes , some in England are worried about losing the assets and resources and the standing that Scotland gives them by being part of the UK , but I would contend that the majority have a very negative view of what Scotland brings to The Union .
    The English public , like the Scots , have been fed propaganda for so long now that much of the lies about Scotland are deep-rooted . And this propaganda has been ramped up since 2114 .

    However , although I think that England has its Independence and has no need to seek separation from Scotland , the weight of propaganda has left its mark . There are too many like Farage in England today who believe the lies that have been propagated for years and , through ignorance too , will seek to sever ties in the not too distant future .

    So we in Scotland may soon have two routes to Independence :

    1. Another referendum in Scotland or
    2. A referendum in England urging their Tory masters to ”Take back control ” from those rebellious Scots .

    I will accept either !

    • deelsdugs says:

      James, sounds like we were ‘schooled’ in the same era. Saturday matinee at the flicks with the odious anthem imposed on the young audience simply out for a reprieve from the classroom controlling of the past week.

    • Golfnut says:

      An interesting by product of the Keating case was when the court presented with the Magna Carta as evidence of Westminster superiority, ruled that it was not relevant since it predated the union and that England ‘ was at that time independent from Scotland ‘. An interesting use of words not really given the attention they deserve, ignored in the same way as ‘ the Crown and Parliament ( Westminster )are not above the law ‘ a ruling by the Inner House of the Court of Session, Scotland’s SC for Scots Constitutional law, not to be confused with the UK SC.

      The UK SC may or may not be asked in the near future to dance on a pin head over the issue of whether or not the the Scottish Parliament can call an independence referendum and will in the fullness of time after much media hype and misdirection conclude that it can but that it is non binding. A fact in law which we are all fully aware.

      There are several issues which we should focus on and perhaps spend time discussing rather than naval gazing on whether we will be ‘ allowed ‘ a referendum, it does nothing but give succour to the enemy and cause confusion within our own ranks, which is of course why it’s always, always wheeled out to quash any positive vibes emanating from the SG and the Yes movement.

      International recognition kills stone dead any notion that Westminster won’t let us go. Westminster is irrelevant.

      How we withdraw from the Treaty of Union, Westminster are wetting themselves on this issue.

      Timescale ‘re Independence and whether or not negotiations should take place post independence, the brexit shambles should be kept front and centre when considering this issue.

      These are believe it or not positive issues for the Yes movement to discuss. You have think independent to be independent.

      • grizebard says:

        I would like to commend you for this posting, Golfnut, which in its first 3 paras is as concise and grounded a summary as I’ve seen for a long time.

        What matters next, and what you leave unmentioned, is that the {ahem} non-binding referendum proceeds and delivers a pro-indy result. (Well, we all know what a “non-binding” referendum means, not least the Tories.) That is the sine-qua-non for what follows. And very obviously why the BritNats are badly funking the issue.

        Many though still seem unable to fully appreciate the immediate consequence of a pro-indy result. It’s a “phase-change” event, by which I mean that everything afterwards is different from what went before, and irreversibly so. A different political universe instantly unfolds. What was previously impossible becomes possible, and some things that were commonplace suddenly become inconceivable. In this case the Scottish Government suddenly becomes de facto fully sovereign, even though on the surface nothing has supposedly changed. But this time there will be no David Cameron emerging from No.10 with a relieved smirk on his face to say that everything is “status quo” and England is back in charge again. Because for his successor it won’t be. And moreover every single adult in Scotland and England will know it. There will be no “rewind button”, no way of going back. Much haggling about the eventual terms of dissolution, no doubt, but it will be “game over” all the same.

        As for the international aspect, we mustn’t expect a sudden rush of recognition from governments of other countries, no matter how sympathetic, though their media will be chock full of it. (Though no doubt there will be an outbreak of informal contacts hidden from view.) All countries, well-disposed or otherwise, will have to observe the diplomatic niceties, and await the completion of formalities, which will necessarily involve face-saving by London. For all the Tory posturing going on now in an attempt to bluff us into submission, that acquiescence will be inevitable, because no alternative is available to them. The international community will in effect be our guarantors, our insurance policy, to ensure that our assertion of sovereignty is respected. That is their subtle importance, why Nicola has been assiduous in engaging with them, and why Tories like Tess White are so vehemently against. (As alas are the usual suspects of our own bitter-and-twisted little Greek chorus, blinded as they are by their own ever-ungenerous myopia.)

        • Golfnut says:

          My comment regarding what we should be discussing ( positive ) instead of the negative spirals of despair often aired within the comments are well exampled by yourself. It’s not easy to see beyond the vote, you clearly do.

        • UndeadShuan says:

          I can think of 3 countries who would recognise Scotlands independence immediately. ( as long as we gain it via democratic means)

          Iceland, who always are the 1st country to recognise others, in part due to their history.

          And France and ROI, given their recent history with brexit britain.

    • Naina Tal says:

      James: your “distant land” comment is absolutely true. I mind in the days when I still had the TV licence. On the soaps if they had to write out a character for a while they sent them to Scotland. Usually this was mentioned by the other characters and it was with a look of horror on their face as if they had been banished from the kingdom and were lost forever in a foreign land that wasn’t England.
      Fast forward to today and having now retired and nae cooncil telly, I’ve been reading a lot more. In the books I’ve noticed so often the role assigned to Scots is the pathologist or the criminal (often a whole family of them). Common theme is a liking for alcohol and nobody can understand what they are saying. They wouldn’t get away with doing it with people of colour so why the Scots?
      Now I’m willing to be persuaded that this racism is so ingrained in the writers that it’s casual and thoughtless. Nevertheless it must be drummed into them from birth in some way, that this stereotype is the only Scots type worth visiting in their literature.
      Perhaps the big problem is that so many inhabitants of the land to the south have a sense of ownership of Scotland. We are a possession they don’t want to lose. Almost on the level that you would see a pet. You know: you can be quite fond but all the time you know in your heart it os a lesser being with less intelligence and perhaps filthy habits.

    • Welsh_Sion says:

      Fully endorsing James Mills, too.

      How many times have you seen the Welsh character portrayed in sitcoms/dramas/soaps etc as some (stereo)typical person from the Valleys, look you, who munches leaks, sings in a male voice choir and if not actually playing rugby, then a fanatic for the fifteen men in red? And don’t even start to mention sheep …

      We too have had to suffer the bane of learning about English history and the joys of English civilisation. (‘It would be a good idea’, methinks, to misquote Gandhi). What do they know of Hywel Dda and his laws or Rhodri Fawr (only one of three kings of Western Europe in the 9th century to be called ‘the Great’). Or of the Llywelyns – native Princes of Wales? They consider Longshanks’s boy to be ‘the first Prince of Wales’ and will brook no argument to the contrary. I’ve even heard said that there are no native castles in Wales – how’s about that for appropriating our history.

      We are ‘pugnacious little trolls’ who speak some cacophonous ‘monkey language’ (that is, if you can call it a language at all. It’s a language which ‘keeps us under the hatches’ and uncivilised compared to the genteel English. We are to wear plaques around our necks to say we jabber so – and be beaten at the end of the day for doing so. Does this figure as part of THEIR history? Oh no, the bwanas and sahibs are getting rich on the backs on the natives – that’s all that matters.

      God, I’m tired of this b—y ‘Union’. If we can’t get indy from it, please Scotland look favourably on the likes of me when we seek |Scottish citizenship.

      • Bob Lamont says:

        “I’ve even heard said that there are no native castles in Wales”
        Not sure if you recall WS but there were a series of short films screened on either BBC2 or C4. The concept was amateur film makers producing video shorts on subjects which mattered to them, and the one I saw (and never found again) was by a young lady who featured places of importance in Welsh history.

        As she flitted from deserted hillsides to a number of different locations, she made the powerful point none of these locations had a plaque acknowledging their importance in Welsh history, where castles once dominated the landscape now there were only sheep.
        Yet her punchline was most damning of all, not one of the multiple locations she’d shot through in her short were even mentioned in WTB literature, it wasn’t Welsh history but that seen through an made in England lens.

      • iusedtobeenglish says:

        W_S

        I was ‘educated’ in English history too. Since I was in England, it wasn’t as noticeable. However, I was taught about the Laws of Hywel Dda and the Llewelyns. Because, fortunately, for the first 2 years my history teacher was Welsh.

        From him we also heard of the Longshanks erm… Incident and its repercussions from the point of view of the Welsh. I don’t think I’d ever heard the phrase “devious, sneaky conniving b*st*rd” before… 😀

        Though not so lucky with Scottish history, I was prepared for the English version of the Uprisings to some extent. Coming from a long, if diluted, maternal line of ‘pugnacious little trolls’ I never could call them Rebellions. (Oswestry’s still in Wales. They never ceded the Marches to Henry VIII!) My “Well. They had a point, didn’t they?” didn’t go down well all those years ago either…

        Very few English know about the plaques etc. Most of people I’ve told about this are appalled when they find out. But you’ve got to know that you don’t know…

    • Christopher Rosindale says:

      The trouble is, too many English people see themselves as British, not English. Or they fail to see the distinction between the two, which is a problem for many Tories.

      As I have mentioned before, as the ‘British,’ the English went on to conquer 1/4 of of the globe after 1707. The Industrial Revolution happened after 1707, changing the entire country, and its view of itself, forever. What had been a small, largely agricultural country became the most powerful industrial nation, and empire, on Earth. The ‘British’ defeated the French, Spanish, but especially the Germans, multiple times, making them feel superior to all of their neighbours – this is an attirude which infests many Brexiteers, especially those who grew-up in the shadow of WW2, which their parents went through, but they didn’t….. An example is my father, born in 1953, who once yelled at someone in a French petrol station when a dispute erupted between them over something (I didn’t witness this personally, but I heard about it from my father, who almost bragged about it):

      “Where were you in 1940?!”

      An obvious reference to the French armistice with Germany after the Battle of France. For many of his generation, Britain/England is superior to France/Europe because it stood firm, and defeated Hitler, whereas they – in the minds of many post-War Brits – were weak/inferior, and surrendered. Their attitude to the EU is coloured by this belief…..

      As the ‘British,’ people like this feel closely connected to this rich tapestry of history. It profoundly influences, even defines, their view of themselves, and of Britain’s/England’s place in the world. Brexit was, in part, the result of a desire to restore Britain’s/England’s imagined greatness, to return it to that former, powerful place in the world.

      But, the break-up of the Union would shatter the British identity, cutting them off, permanently, from all of that history as it would then belong to a country which no longer existed. With being ‘British’ consigned to the history books, they would be left to work-out what being just ‘English’ is. In the 21st century, with the British Empire long gone, and the rest of the world having moved-in and left them behind….. The likely uncertainty and upheaval of that, with the inevitiable political instability, blame gaming and national identity soul-searching, the outcome of which would be a smaller, weaker, much less-important England than before the loss of the Union, absolutely terrifies the Tory leadership.

      But not, potentially, many of their English supporters.

      This is the situation that I think we must now try and force them into to get Indyref 2. It has to be sold as beneficial for England’s future, rather than a threat, as the Tories are currently doing. Our new tactic must be to try and get the idea of English independence into the political debate down there. Goading Tory politicians on TV talk-shows, at PMQ’s, etc, with arguments like:

      “Are you seriously suggesting that, without Scotland, your own country, England, is too weak and feeble to stand on its own two feet on the world stage? My god, I had no idea that so many Englishmen had such a weak idea of their own country’s identity!”

      would be one obvious way.

      For example, GB News would be interesting…. If someone from the SNP went on there, and pushed this argument during a debate with Nigel Farage, his reactions to being called a weak, timid Englishman by someone from another UK country, who was openly treating him as inferior in front of his own eager audience, might just be interesting. Unwilling to look weak or worse, in agreement with the SNP MP’s argument, he will probably lash-out and flaunt his English identity.

      The image of that reaction will then be lodged in the minds of many of his viewers…….! Memes, web clips and social media videos could then result, spreading the idea of English independence further among the Tory voters…….

      Articles, media interviews, blogs, social media, all of these routes could be used to taunt the Tory supporters with the idea that England is letting itself be weaker in the Union, and should instead set itself free by breaking it up, as it did by leaving the EU……

      If this tactic pays off, the Tories may find themselves trying to promote 2 visions of England’s future, which are increasingly at odds with each other. What happened to Labour in Scotland before the 2015 General Election, where they found themselves trying to ride 2 horses at once to stop a fatal split in their core vote, provides an indication of where the Tories could find themselves. They may well be tempted to try and lance the boil, as they tried to with UKIP, by gambling on Indyref 2 to shut down the English Independence argument.

      And if they lose, we’ve won.

  8. Welsh_Sion says:

    Two articles of interest so far:

    https://www.ft.com/content/69599c1c-a007-4df4-9e15-2fde1120c929

    Nicola Sturgeon on Scottish independence: ‘I’ve got time on my side’

    Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon however told the Financial Times that she hoped the Covid-19 pandemic would have receded sufficiently by early spring next year for “concrete decisions” on when a referendum could be held.

    “I can’t look ahead and tell you exactly how this constitutional impasse is going to resolve itself, but it will resolve itself — and it will resolve itself on the side of democracy, because actually, the alternative is pretty unthinkable,” she said.

    “I’ve got democracy on my side . . . if they think it’s about playing a waiting game, I’ve probably got time on my side as well. You look at the demographics of the support for independence — well, I’m not sure that’s going to get you out of this conundrum.”

    […]

    [Behind a paywall]

    https://nation.cymru/news/wales-must-prepare-for-likely-second-independence-referendum-in-scotland-before-2025-says-drakeford/

    Wales must prepare for ‘likely’ second independence referendum in Scotland before 2025 says Drakeford

    12 Oct 2021 3 minute Read

    A second referendum in Scotland is “likely” before 2025 and Wales must prepare for it by holding its own constitutional convention, the First Minister has said.

    Mark Drakeford told the Morning Star that the Welsh Government would be pressing ahead with the convention “to make sure we do the thinking on what choices” would be available to Wales.

    “In this Senedd term there is likely to be a second referendum in Scotland,” he said.

    […]

      • Alex Clark says:

        The FT interview with Nicola Sturgeon.

        https://archive.ph/W2Jyo

        • Capella says:

          FT not really breaking new ground here. But I was amused by “in her concrete-walled office in the Scottish parliament”. Trying to plant the subliminal idea of a bunker?

          The Tories are tweeting that NS is hoping for old people to die off ; the “time on my side” quote from the FT. They are also tweeting that queues at Hampden were the fault of the new chaotic Covid Passport scheme which must be scrapped. The National debunks:
          https://archive.fo/MIGMK

          Do Tories lie, I wonder?

          • scottish skier says:

            If polls broke down the over 65 age groups further, you’d be pretty much guaranteed to find the very oldest in Scotland (born pre-1945) were more pro-indepdence than the younger baby boomers. After all, Britishness peaks in those born just at the end of WWII; older generations are less British the further back you go based on the 2011 census…

            https://skiersfirindy.blogspot.com/2021/09/scottish-free-choice-self-declared.html

            Scots don’t get more British/Conservative as they get older; this comes from the world they were born into and is generational, not age based.

            Ruth is wrong and Sturgeon is right – time is not on the UK’s side.

            As an aside, you often find that the very oldest Scots are fluent in Scots. It was the advent of radio and TV that started to push ‘queens English’ into everyday Scots life, with the British belting scots / Gaelic speakers in school etc.

            I remember a very elderly chap who was sitting behind me at a primary school play speaking 100% border Scots during breaks. It was amazing to hear. Then, at one point, he started talking about his grandchildren we were off at university being able to ‘speak properly’ unlike him. I almost turned around and said to him ‘It’s you that is speaking the native language of this country fluently / properly’,

            I’m also pleased I could completely understand him, particular as NE Highlands teuchter. 🙂

          • Dr Jim says:

            “Concrete walled office”, the attempt at the mind bending implications on the thoughtless are obvious, Scotland is lead by Osama Bin Nicola now, she used to have horns and a witches spell book, now she’s gone much further and has……. walls

    • Christopher Rosindale says:

      A fascinating article on support for Welsh Independence among Welsh Labour supporters, which may explain Drakeford’s actions. Welsh Labour supporters seem to be becoming the driving force for it:

      https://novaramedia.com/2021/10/06/could-the-labour-party-lead-wales-to-independence/

      • Welsh_Sion says:

        Thank you for sharing, Christopher. 🙂

        Just a minor quibble – the Referendum for the National Assembly was in 1997 (not 1999 – that’s when it opened.) Further, there was no mention of the 2011 Referendum for more legislative powers for the Assembly which was won by a 66% vote for YES. (This was prior to the creation of the Senedd.)

        There are regular stories on Drakeford’s inching towards supporting indy on the nation.cymru site daily.

        • Christopher Rosindale says:

          It’s fascinating, because Drakeford is not a Welsh nationalist, you would think that he’d be opposed to anything which would promote Welsh separation from the UK.

          Unless, mindful of what has happened to his counterparts in Scotland since 2014, he’s astute enough to realise that unless he gets ahead of the curve where his own party’s supporters are concerned, he might meet the same fate. Plaid Cymru could then make a play for his party’s pro-Independence supporters, posing a serious threat to Welsh Labour.

          Or it could be that, angered by Brexit, Johnson’s subsequent conduct, and the Tories’ growing and more open hostility towards devolution in the UK, he is starting to waver in his support for the Union.

  9. Alex Clark says:

    Britain’s early handling of the coronavirus pandemic was one of the worst public health failures in UK history, with ministers and scientists taking a “fatalistic” approach that exacerbated the death toll, a landmark inquiry has found.

    “Groupthink”, evidence of British exceptionalism and a deliberately “slow and gradualist” approach meant the UK fared “significantly worse” than other countries, according to the 151-page “Coronavirus: lessons learned to date” report led by two former Conservative ministers.

    https://archive.ph/uLVIq

    Now you know why Johnson is nowhere to be seen as he hides in Marbella.

  10. scottish skier says:

    I thank Capella for pointing out this quote from well-known Scottish-Canadian politician Tommy Douglas, which I had not come across before, but says exactly what I’ve tried to, yet so much better.

    When Johnson first said ‘No Section 30’ it was not anger I felt, but a deep foreboding, not so much for Scots, as he / those around him are cowards without the baws of the Spanish right, but for decent folks in England.

    Sturgeon is right to say blocking iref2 is ‘unthinkable’. Yes, to withdraw* the right to vote from a minority people#, residing in their own historic homeland, so as to enforce British/English rule on them against their will is unthinkable; it is fascism by the standard definition.

    It’s why my posts discussing this get my unionist stalkers elsewhere foaming at the mouth.

    The more decent Tory and Labour MPs still have time to stop this, and if the UK government backs off and facilitates as per 2014, so will my comments on the matter.

    But right now, there was a line in the sand in front of Johnson marked ‘fascism’ and he’s put one foot across and planted it on the other side. He’d be wise to bring that foot back, for if not, it will destroy the UK and, in particular, England. If the ‘cheap european labour’ (= hard working humans like my wife) are getting it tight now, god help them in a few years when the UK economy is a smoking ruin.

    England is already isolated enough without being subject to crippling sanctions as ‘Europe’s second last dictatorship’.

    Time for the Tories to step back from the brink; it’s the only way they could have any hope of saving the union and even if they fail there, of keeping good relations between current a (future) former members.


    *The union has always existed in principle by consent, from the day it was entered into, from Thatcher saying all we had to do was vote SNP, to the 2014 referendum.

    #For the benefit of the blood and soil freaks, the Scots race, as defined by international human rights laws and enshrined in the equality act, refers to those who freely self-identify as Scottish, which anyone can, as many neither born in Scotland and/or are not of Scottish parentage still do.

    https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/equality-act/protected-characteristics#race

    This should not be dismissed, as if it comes to the international courts, it is the acceptance of Scots as people that ultimately gives Scotland the right to self-determination; a specific purpose of which is to avoid subjugation by erm, fascists.

    • Capella says:

      Good youtube miniseries biopic of Tommy Douglas.https://youtu.be/p9SNHt6lRCE

    • nothing i disagree with. Unlike many alba supporters, i dont blame Nicola for this impass. I blame the voters. It was the voters that gave Nicola the mandate in 2016 to put indyref2 on the table. it was the voters failing to support her in 2017 (only 38%) that made her take it off the table.

      folk need to realise that the politicians we elect are up against the british establishment, with very few arrows in their quiver. It matters not who we elect, nicola, alex or Jean-Claude fuckin Van Damme, they all equiped with the same ammunition. This face off between Holyrood and WM has been in the post since 2016 and bojo isnt going to do anything. Its our move.

      The only arrow Nicola has is to bring the draft bill forward and make it law. indyref2 sept 2023, covid permitting.

      If anyone has any other idea what nicola can do, im all ears?

      the only thing to discuss is when she should do this. I think she should do it today

      • scottish skier says:

        It is not England the Scottish government needs to satisfy in terms of doing things ‘legally’, it is the international community.

        The British/English declared pretty much every attempt at independence from their rule ‘illegal’ under their own laws; the UN and international community took a different view.

        If London tries to subjugate Scotland, it will end up in the international courts and England will lose for their is absolutely no doubt the Scots are a people, with their own ancient country, with that even openly accepted by the UK just 7 years ago in front of the entire world.

        To have any hope of stopping things, the English government would need to argue England wasn’t a county and so had no right to play international tournaments etc.

        But the Scot gov must do everything by the book and with the clear, unquestionable backing of the electorate. A backing that is clearly not going to be reversed. In that position, the international community will support Scotland retaking its place in the world, and will even intervene if England tries to stop this with force.

        To be honest, the fact that we are having this discussion shows how quickly, with Brexit, the UK has descended into knee jerk racist hatred against minority groups, including Europeans, Scots and Welsh, on top of longstanding hate towards the Irish.

        • If people want to appeal to the UN and the EU, i have no problem signing their petition to do so, good luck etc. However, i would never back any plan whose success depends on the UN and/or EU cavalry coming to save us.

          I serve along side UN forces many times and once even wore the blue beret of IFOR, I would like to say that i still had the beret to prove. but I dont. My entire section and I, pour petrol over all of our blue berets and set fire to them on the runway before boarding our c130. I can introduce you to 100’s of people who will swear on the holy fukcin’ bible that the UN pisses from a great height all over the democratic rights of sovereign people, just like you and I, every day.

          So by all means, I support nicola appealing to the UN/EU, it cant do any harm but i think it is a blunt arrow.

          It is our job to win our independence.

          The only arrow Nicola possess, is to make the draft bill law. then the ball will be in bojos court.

          i can see no reason for any delay. sept 2023, covid permitting.

          time to call bojos bluff, if he does try to get the SC to block it, that will simple add to the impending discontent this winter.

          • grizebard says:

            You may be ready, but many people still aren’t. Which is the whole point. And they won’t be ready to engage until they’ve personally got a handle on the pandemic. Which many haven’t still. And nobody has a clue whether things will escalate again over the winter. Which they might, in which case any political impetus will get totally swamped. It’s not about BoJo and it’s not about you, so just try to control yourself and remember the big mistake of last time was feeling ready while blissfully unaware that too many others weren’t.

            • I dont think you can use Covid as a means to stop passing the indyref2 bill into law. we simply include a caveat/conditional “Covid Permitting”

              we cannot keep putting this off. sept 2023 is 2 years away. if nicola acted today and made indyref2 bill law, it could be xmas before bojo instructs the sc to opposite it. it will be summer 2022 before we hear their ruling.

              the biggest mistake we made in 2014 was trying to second guess our opponents, who wad a’ thunk cameron would find a sleazy ex EU president to come onto the marr show and say, “I shouldnt really say this, snigger, but i dont think an indy scotland will get into the EU”

              no, the british establishment is weaker now than i have ever seen,

              westminster is now,today, calling for the ECJ to be removed from NIP. the eu and us will never agree to this. it breaks the GFA. if bojo then actions section 16 of the NIP and withdraws completely, as is being threatened, the EU will be forced to set up customs controls along the border between Eire and NI. sanctions from both eu and us will follow. brexit is about to get a whole lot worse and NI will go up in flames.

              this is precisely why we should set the ball rolling today.

              in 3 weeks time, bojo doesnt want to see any saltires at the cop26 in glasgow, 1000’s of climate activists from all over will gather in protest. And they will be joined by 1000’s of yes supporters. the only thing the world media will see is a sea of saltires.

              The vehicule for independence is the yes movement. if we move now, it will also be the vehicule for the anti brexit movement

              • grizebard says:

                Again, you’re putting the cart before the horse. If the consequences of Brexit are going to get a whole lot worse, or even merely accumulate, it is the appreciation of that finally percolating into peoples’ consciousness (despite the attempts at media omerta) that will effect the necessary mindset shift. Before that happens too many are impervious to reason and it’s a total waste of time and effort. In politics, timing is all.

                But I do agree that things should be set in motion well before 2023. Leaving it that long creates too many hostages to fortune. My own inclination, barring unforseen circumstances, is next spring.

                • I do believe we are in some form of agreement here grizebard. It is our turn to make a move. that should be to bring forward the draft bill and make it law.

                  only difference is when

                  i would like it now.

                  it could take 2 months for holyrood to do this

                  it might be wise to wait until the EU and lord frost conclude the NI protocol negotiations and see the result. I actually dont know if there is a deal line for these negs but i doubt the eu will allow this goat rodeo to continue much longer. we will probably know by xmas. if the negs go badly and uk renages on the deal, the eu/us sanctions will be disasterous. even if frost does manage to broker a deal, bojo is planning to introduce tarriff barriers on jan the 1st which will be no less devastating for the uk. NI will be in chaos regardless of the outcome of these negotiations.

                  So i could be convinced to wait until 2nd jan. which would leave a difference of about 3 months between us. i wouldnt want to fall out with you over such a small time frame

                  • grizebard says:

                    {laugh}

                    Annoying as it is for us all, it’s still “step-by-step” for now. What Frost is currently up to is sheer brass-necked exceptionalist effrontery. It’s “keep calm and keep on digging” in the deep hole they have already dug for themselves, while the EU looks on in increasing amazement at the bizarre reality-denial. And all we can (and need alas to) do for the moment is sit in this UKnotOK doo-do and suffer. Tariff barriers on the UK side will put it into melt-down, if Frost & Co persist in their self-harm, and I reckon the EU, which has lately been trying to reach out, will finally lose patience and leave them to it.

                    Remember when it was all “oven ready deal” and “Mercedes -Benz will make them all bend to our will”? There is payback due, a big one, and it’s a-comin’.

                    • agreed, ive enjoyed the discussion with SS and yourself tonight, i preferred to do it here rather on pauls latest blog, i think to have had it there would have been a tad disrespectful. some things are more important than politics, ones health is one of them. but im encouraged, i do detect a consensus of opinion beginning to form wrt the way ahead.

        • arnt the chagos islanders a people?

          “Mauritius has repeatedly stated that the Chagos Archipelago is part of its territory and that the United Kingdom (UK) claim is a violation of United Nations resolutions banning the dismemberment of colonial territories before independence. The UK government has stated that it has no doubt about its sovereignty over the Chagos, yet has also said that the Chagos will be given to Mauritius once the islands are no longer required for military purposes. Given the absence of any progress with the UK, Mauritius took up the matter at various legal and political forums.”

          and the UN has said and done nothing. Scotland is a sovereign nation, no question about it SS.

          Im just not a naive sovereign scot

          • scottish skier says:

            The UN has said and done lots, with this issue and increasing stain on the UK. In time, we can expect sanctions.

            And that’s with the Chagos islands not being a large, historic nation which is on the telly as it plays other countries in the FIFA world cup qualifiers.

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/28/un-court-rejects-uk-claim-to-chagos-islands-in-favour-of-mauritius

            If the UK succeeds in preventing a referendum legally in the first instance – and that’s very unlikely, while making a Yes a forgone conclusion – then what happens next is you get protests. Not marches, but protest. Disruptive ones. Including in London. These can’t be ignored as they’ll just grow if they are. So you need to send in English jackboots to take control. This will be on the TV; English jackboots arresting Scots who are protesting at colonial subjugation.

            Things will continue to escalate as support for Yes grows naturally, and due to public outcry at denial of democracy, especially in the face of a collapsing UK economy.

            I will reiterate that no country on earth has ever had democracy removed by a neighbour ‘peacefully’ by force of law. It always requires violence by the coloniser.

            If Scots want independence, it cannot be stopped by force of law. That’s impossible.

            You saw what happened in Northern Ireland right? And that’s with 75% support for being in the UK at peak. Now imagine what it would have been like if a majority actually backed being part of the republic and the British tried to stop it?

            It is unthinkable.

            In the face of democracy, there is no justification for violence / direct action. However, if Scots cannot freely vote for indy, they are allowed to take direct action under international law, starting with civil disobedience, and ultimately, UDI. If England sends in jackboots, then fighting these is all legal and above board, just as the French resistance was and the IRA would have been if there had not been a deal between the UK and Eire to end the war of indy.

            It is unthinkable to go down this road, as that is what it leads to. It always does. It’s hard to imagine it, but it happens very quickly.

            My grandparents didn’t fight the Nazis so the English could do what Hitler never managed and subjugate Scotland.

            I strongly suspect London is bluffing – and I hope to god they are – because trying to keep Scotland in the union by force of arms (force of law is force of arms) is ‘unthinkable’, for that cannot end peacefully.

            And I note that this all does depend on Scots in majority wanting indy. That’s why Westminster doesn’t want a vote; because of Scots vote Yes, they have to use troops to take back control or accept indy.

            The Spanish understood this international rule of thumb; hence sending in jackboots to disrupt the catalan vote (to render the outcome questionable), beat up old ladies, close down the parliament and arrest democratically elected politicians.

            The Spanish didn’t ‘ignore the vote’. You cannot ignore democracy; your have to accept it or use troops to crush it and all that entails.

            Unthinkable.

            • UN sanctions eh ! the UK split the Chagos Archipelago away from Mauritius in 1965 so dont hud yer breath mon ami.

              I dont like hearing indy folk saying “bojo will just say no” such a thing was unthinkable way back in the days of 2014 when we were still a family of nations Eh! repeating this comment is simply regurgitating unionist propaganda designed to normalise the idea of bojo just saying no. They do this because if bojo does say no they can jump up and say, “see, i told ya so” as if it makes them some kind of Brahan fuckin Seer.

              No, I cannot see into the future. non of us can, i do not know what is in bojos mind. If we were playing tennis doubles, we could decide between ourselves where to focus our shots, do we send them to the back of the oppositions court? a drop shot just beyond the net etc. What we dont get to do is decide how our opposition responds.

              its our turn, time to call bojos bluff. indyref2 sept 2023.

              • scottish skier says:

                The Chagos Islands situation of course cannot be compared to Scotland. Unfortunately for the Islanders, who are tiny in number (unlike the millions of Scots, many prominent on the global stage) their home isn’t a historic ‘country’ as such, nor are they seeking that, but just to go home to their islands, which are the subject of a territorial dispute between Mauritius and the UK, albeit the Chagos people want the islands to be under the umbrella of the former.

                Even with that, they have succeeded in getting the UK found guilty in the UN courts of breaches of international law with the UK declared as having no sovereign rights to the Islands. It’s been a long struggle, but there is growing political pressure. If a small group of exiled islanders can do that, then Scotland, a sizeable European country…

                A better comparison with Scotland is Ireland or all the other colonies that kicked out Brits.

                Bullies are cowards and they run if you fight back. Britain controlled 1/4 of the globe but crapped it’s pants and ran from a ‘bunch of potato farmers’ on the emerald island. Pathetic joke of an empire. Get the Scots on the streets if needed and the British Tories will wet themselves and fold as they always do.

                Anyhow, ‘back to the good old pre-EU days of Britain’ means, erm, British ruled countries going independent left right and centre. It was European membership and devolution that stopped the imperial retreat when it reached the UK’s shores in 1997, just as the sun finally set on Hong Kong. Or just slowed it down…

                I guess we are going back to complete unfinished business; the final end of the empire, with the borders retreating all the way back to where they started in 1707; along the Solway-Tweed line. Wales to then follow.

            • My grandparents didn’t fight the Nazis so…. I dont like this argument… ever. These people died for a past that no longer exist, they did not die for that which we seem to have inherited. Today was undreamt of when they were alive.

              When I was a grunt, assuming and claiming the sacrifice of others to further your own ends and views was considered to be akin to “lécher la sueur des couilles des hommes morts”

              • scottish skier says:

                I totally agree. I would never put words in the mouths of others. But you don’t need to do that with your own family.

                Of the two grandparents that saw active service (my other grandad worked the railways so was key personnel), one was an Irish republican (a baby when the British shot at her friends and family) and the other a indy supporting Scot.

                They both may have fought in the British army, but didn’t fight for the British empire. They fought to bring freedom and democracy to Europe, freeing it from the Nazi jackboot. This isn’t words I put in their mouths; it’s their words. I’m only early 40’s and remember them both very well; they only passed away ~25 years ago.

                Jeez, my gran got nothing but racist abuse and turned away when looking for accommodation in London, and she volunteered herself to fight as she was (neutral) Irish. Ended up manning anti-aircraft guns.

                • i would prefer a peaceful transition to indy but the direction of travel isnt entirely in our own hands. bojo will do what he wants. you may yet get the chance to man your own anti aircraft gun, or in the 21st century a stinger missile. cost about $600 a pop, you can teach an idiot to fire one in about 5 mins and they never miss. It was stingers who ended the conflict in NI and brought about the GFA, it was stingers which defeated the soviets in Afganistan and ended communism.

                  • scottish skier says:

                    Yes, sure. I am a democrat and a pacifist. It’s why I’m deeply troubled about by the ‘No section 30 / voting is illegal’ stuff

                    It’s not me trying to stop democracy and by doing so risking violence. It’s the brits.

                    It’s why I keep say that it is ‘unthinkable’ for the English/Brits to do remove the right of Scots to vote. I understand exactly what the FM is saying / why she’s saying it. She knows fine well where such a path leads – and decent statesman/woman does, and it’s the sound of jackboots.

                    I don’t believe in direct action as long as you can freely vote*. There is no justification when you can express yourself at the ballot box. Gandhi style peaceful but increasingly disruptive (for Britain in this case) protest would be next, if that right is taken away. Violence only ever in self defence in the face of no other choice (e.g. attack / occupation by an unwanted foreign power), as per my grandparents in WWII.

                    Unfortunately, my family has been shot at by the British before when the latter tried to overturn the 1921 election in Ireland. British terrorists also bombed Scots in Glasgow; the target being folk like my father who lived not far away. Suffice to say that’s why I felt such foreboding when Boris said ‘No’. These are not nice people we are dealing with. For them, democracy is an annoyance which they’d dispense with if they can.

                    Best to make as many allies as we can by doing things by the book to all extents possible, and peacefully.

                    But the ‘No S30’ confirms the English/British state is not Scotland’s friend. It has time to redeem itself here before it’s too late and we end up with another Irish type legacy, which I still have faith won’t happen.

                    *If I lived in Northern Ireland, I’d be SDLP.

                    • its good to have faith, but we cant avoid this inevitable next step, I understand Nicola’s reluctance to make it, Im sure she hoped bojo would come to his senses by now and accept the reality and avoid this face off, but he hasnt. Nicola must now accept that this face off is unavoidable, its now time for her to make the move which will precipitate this face off and call bojos bluff

                  • Capella says:

                    The reply facility wasn’t available above so – to answer your point about me not answering your question:

                    A player who upsets the board is deemed to have forfeited the game. Rules of Chess.

                    The game is politics and international diplomacy. There are rules. In politics democracy rules. If not, then we have fascism.
                    In international diplomacy honouring treaties rules. if not, then we have wars

                    If Boris Johnson, or whoever represents Westminster, ignores the rules of politics and international diplomacy i.e. he over-rules electoral majorities or breaks international treaties, then he has forfeited any right to dictate terms. He has upset the table. All bets are off.

                    Orwell said that the British state lies. It relies on lies to enforce its will, but if it turns out that lying no longer works then they will resort to force.

                    We must never be in a position where that force can have effect. That’s where partners are important. Honour your partners, in Europe and in North America.

                    • in a fair and just world the consequences would be automatic. but we dont live in a free and just world. In the real world, countries like britain break treaties and piss all over people all the time. while its great to have friends in the us/eu in the real world scotland is only world famous in scotland and its our job to win our independence. no one elses.

                      The focus for the yes movement at the moment is Nicola and other politicians but making the draft indyref2 bill law is nicola’s last arrow, beyond that she has no more arrows, thats it, there are no rabbits to be pulled out of a hat. if she calls bojos bluff and he does block indyref2, what will nicola do then? bleed all over him?

                      beyond that, politicians will get sidelined, the only people who can then bring about scottish independence is us.

                      so if you think that there’s a chance bojo will do this my advice to you is to start saving up your cigarette coupons to buy a daktari gun cos there’s a good chance you’re gonna need it.

                    • Capella says:

                      Again – there’s no reply box under your last post. No idea why.
                      Anyway, I agree that Boris Johnston is a stupid bully. But he doesn’t act alone. The people who depend on us all being good citizens n a “rules based” world will have some hard decisions to make. e.g. I’m interested in how they will resolve the stand off with NI. I knew the border would have to be down the Irish Sea. So now they want to renege on their International Treaty because that breaks the other Treaty – the Union Treaty. Oops.
                      So will the EU abandon Ireland and cave in? Will Joe “I’m Irish” Biden accept breaking the Good Friday Agreement? Or will England have to accept reality?

  11. Alex Clark says:

    “no more fucking lockdowns – let the bodies pile high in their thousands”

    • scottish skier says:

      I wonder how James Brokenshire’s family felt about the cancer outcomes comment.

      I rarely use personal insults, even towards politicians, but Johnson truly is scum.

  12. James Mills says:

    How many countries have achieve Independence from the UK- 62?

    Many of these occurred in the post-War period , especially in Africa in Macmillan’s ”Wind of change ”.
    Some had to resort to violence to demonstrate to the UK the seriousness of their convictions – e.g. Kenya and Ghana ( Gold Coast ).

    Almost all of these nations had been ”conquered” and were subject to the authority of their conqueror . Therefore it stands to reason that it would be difficult for a conquered nation to throw off the shackles of its oppressor . But they managed it , some more quickly than others .

    However , imagine that these nations had joined in a friendly ”union” with the UK for their mutual benefit .
    Imagine that at some future date these nations had decided that this ”union” was no longer working to their benefit and they wished this voluntary ”friendly” union to be dissolved .

    How would the UK respond ? How could the UK object ? These are NOT conquered nations ; the UK has NO authority over them other than the voluntary compact they agreed which the nations now wish to dissolve .
    Refusing to comply with the wishes of these nations would label the UK in the eyes of the world as an Oppressor !

    Scotland is NOT a conquered nation ; Scotland has joined a voluntary union with England ; Scotland has clearly demonstrated , through democratic elections , that it wishes to re-visit this union .
    How does the UK respond ? How could the UK object ?

    The ”Wind of change ” which Macmillan responded to in 1960 has not been reciprocated by the Tory Government of 2021 in the same manner . Macmillan saw the writing on the wall for the British Empire .
    This present crop of Tories are purblind to changing times , sadly supported by similar elements in other unionist parties .

    A voluntary union is only possible when all parties see it as beneficial to them – that time has long passed . In its attitude to Scotland vis-a-vis self-determination the UK is rapidly becoming an Oppressor .
    Not a good look for Global Britain !

    • Capella says:

      which the nations now wish to dissolve …that’s the tricky bit. That’s the will which the Scottish people have to demonstrate unequivocally. We vote for the SNP in overwhelming numbers in spite of every effort of unionists and their cronies to prevent it.

      Unionists try to diminish the democratic evidence before our eyes with every means at their disposal. A free and fair referendum would be indisputable evidence of the will of the people. That’s why they are desperate to prevent it, delay it, discredit it and, if necessary deny it.

  13. Not-My-Real-Name says:

    The enigma.

    A Tory government , and their mouthpieces in the media , who declare the myth that Scotland is subsidised by England and yet inexplicable also hold the position they want this so called drain on their (we pay taxes too) financial resources to remain within their UK (Scotland’s ignored resources contribute to UK economy though) ………..so they in spending vast amounts of money on polling for the Union and setting up Pro Unionist units/thinktanks to offset what ?…..a continuance of them supposedly subsidising an entire nation within their UK…or just to delay/prevent the inevitable break up of their UK.

    Go onto social media and see the rabid extreme British Nationalists who endorse this myth also…..the same ones who voted Brexit to get rid of so called EU unelected bureaucrats, yet strangely are somewhat subdued in vocalising their objection on the unelected , over paid and ever expanding gravy train mob in the HOL’s that they , as British Nationalists tax payers, subsidise (as do the rest of us)……..to their (and our) detriment….while also surprisingly condoning the injustice of Tory donors profiting from their donations in being offered public contracts without tender and also Tory and other Unionist parties filling the HOL’s with unelected bureaucrats to maintain the imbalance within UK society.

    Either they too, the British Nationalists, are being duplicitous and know what Scotland is really worth to THEIR UK or they are simply repeating like parrots what they hear but cannot see how irrational their argument is…..the argument seemingly being that “you needs us more than we need you”…..therefore….you should REMAIN within our UK so that we can lose (supposedly) financially where we live in order for you in Scotland to prosper at our expense……that sounds like good sense being applied…..NOT.

    However that was an argument used to leave the EU…..they opposed their UK remaining in the EU as it was also presented as “They need us more than we need them” …..but somehow they fail to see both the weakness and incoherence in that argument even when the Brexit fiasco evidence is currently presenting the opposite of that very statement that they endorsed……and will also do when Scotland leaves their UK.

    So many things they are unwilling to ‘pay for’ but supposedly continuing to subsidise a whole country is somehow acceptable to them….and seems logical to them …the fact that it seems logical tends to suggest logic only if you never use logic as a basis for the argument you are using……let’s be honest (as they are not)….is it not the case that if we leave the UK, Ireland reunifies and Wales then also seeks self determination (not necessarily in that order) all you will have left is an isolated inward looking country living in the past who pretends it was and is better than all other countries and still failing to see why they now stand alone……..a country that is led by those who convince those who vote for them that all of their woes and problems are the fault of everyone bar themselves……and they will sadly wallow in the comfort of their blame culture indeed they will only look ‘outward’ when they seek the latest culprit to pin responsibility for their latest crisis or fiasco……a viscous circle drawn by the political party currently at the helm of their now lost UK.

    The arguments used to remain within the UK in 2014 was based on empty promises and lies.

    The same arguments are being used today…..the difference is that those of us who live in Scotland do not recognise the supposed so called benefits of being a part of their UK and now see the empty promises and lies for what they were …….the mess we currently endure is totally BECAUSE we are still a part of their UK and that is not a position from which the BT side can benefit from now or in the future but it definitely does add substance to our argument for independence and proves that those who create slogans to sway opinion cannot sustain their position when reality exposes the slogans as a brief attention seeking empty…….slogans…where reality eventually catches up with the fantasy within the message promoted via the slogans deployed by Unionist false prophets.

    There are slogans and there are slogans……some slogans are created to promote false messages/promises…the skill in distinguishing what is real and what is false is …..to look at the messenger(s)….and when I see a Unionist slogan being promoted then I know , from experience, it is worthless and meaningless and not to be trusted …..and as it has no substance or truth tis best ignored. (BT slogans pre 2014 classic examples)…….and subsequent t’others post 2014 promoted by Unionist political parties too.

    Indeed if I was to be swayed by a slogan it would be one presented by those I trust and one that involves Scotland leaving the UK and getting independence…….#UKEnding being one example.

  14. Yes Strathaven says:

    The latest GERS ‘deficit’ nonsense declares an approximate £14Bilion gap in spending in Scotland. The Daily Mail types in England actually believe that this is a subsidy provided by England to those ungrateful Scots. That works out at approx £270 Million per week. Put that on the side of a big red bus and drive around England. “GET RID OF THE JOCKS AND PUT £270mILLION A WEEK TOWARDS THE NHS”

  15. Dr Jim says:

    Barclays bank certainly have no worries over Scottish Independence with their brand new hub just opened today by Scotlands First Minister creating 2.500 new jobs and a further 2.500 more within two years

    And they’re not finished yet, there’s more to come

    The nasty Unionists and haters are really annoyed that Scotland looks like it’s going to prosper

  16. Hamish100 says:

    Scotland can hold a indicative referendum ( just like Brexit)- just asking for the electorates views.

    I would go for 2022. Turn the screw

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