Johnson’s deal puts rocket boosters under arguments for independence

It might have been a covid Christmas, but some seasonal traditions are sacred and unchanging despite the global pandemic. So there’s the traditional Queen’s speech on the telly and the equally traditional rush for the remote control to turn the channel so we can watch Judge Judy instead, because if the broadcasters are determined to show us a bad tempered and sour faced rich old white woman patronising poor people, it’s far better to watch the one who at least offers some entertainment value.

But the big news of the week is that a trade deal has been reached between the British government and the EU. It’s a thin deal which in no way comes close to the rights that we have lost from leaving the Single market and the Customs Union, The fishing industry – the only sector of the Scottish economy which had actually supported Brexit, is already crying betrayal. The vital financial services sector has been sidelined entirely. Important Scottish agricultural products have been omitted from the deal.

As soon as the deal was announced, Tories like Michael Forsyth were triumphantly tweeting that the deal meant it was all over for the SNP and hopes of independence, sadly for him, that Dracula in a gimp mask, the deal is a gift to the indy movement. It has alienated farmers and fishermen, given the services sector a reason to support indy, and removed the threat that Scottish goods post indy won’t have tariff free access to English markets. It ensures that an independent Scotland which is a member of EFTA or The EEA will be able to trade with The Uk with only the same checks that will now be in place for goods travelling between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. This is an arrangement which Michael Gove has described as the best of both worlds for Northern Ireland. Him and his Conservative pals will now no longer be able to claim that independence will result in Scotland being economically cut off from English markets.

Now it is certainly the case that upon achieving independence Scotland would not automatically be a part of the EU and would have to apply for membership. Even with an expedited application process this is still likely to take a while – even though the oft-repeated claim that Scotland would have to get to the back of the queue behind Turkey is a nonsense, as is the repeatedly debunked claim that Spain would veto a Scottish application in order to discourage Catalonia. However Scotland could enjoy all the same rights of market access by joining the European Free Trade Association along with Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, and Lichtenstein. Scotland could potentially join EFTA in the period between a Yes vote for independence and the actual date of independence itself, so that Scotland would be a member immediately upon attaining independence, ensuring a seamless transition into the European Single Market Sright of freedom of movement and settlement throughout Europe for citizens of the newly independent Scotland. Unless the British government were to change its citizenship laws to strip Scots of British citizenship, Scottish citizens eould retain the right to live and work and travel freely in the UK, making the possession of a Scottish passport a valuable asset for anyone applying for a job with a company trading with both the UK and with Europe. Incidentally, it is vanishingly unlikely that the British government would move to strip British citizenship from Scots, as if they did so they woul also have to remove British citizenship from the likes of Michael Gove. Michael Forsyth, Liam Fox and Malcolm Rifkind. That’s not going to happen.

Crucially, the UK cannot treat one part of the European Single Market differently from any other part, otherwise it wouldn’t be a single market. This renders toothless any British natuonalist threat that Westminster would seek to punish Scotland economically for daring to seek independence. Thanks to the Tory deal We now have a guarantee that Scotland will not economically suffer from independence, we only stand to gain, and to attain what Michael Gove himself has described as the best of both worlds. Meanwhile vital economic sectors such as finance an services have now been given a very powerful motive to support independence which they did not have before. An independent Scotland would be ideally placed to hoover up the financial sector jobs and investment which is now looking at leaving the UK.

This new deal does not mean that there would have to be passport checks on anyone crossing the Anglo-Scottish border, that scare story can be put to rest too. Ireland remains a member of the Common travel Area, and so could an independent Scotland too. Any checks on commercial traffic between an independent Scotland and England would be the same as those henceforth in place on commercial traffic travelling to Northern Ireland and could be handled in a similar way. There need be no passport checks or controls on individuals crossing the border for private visits. Anyone who insists otherwise is scaremongering, pure and simple.

What this deal, which was unwanted by Scotland and in the making of which Scottish interests have not been taken into account, has done, is to massively strengthen the arguments for independence while destroying some of the most important arguments that British nationalists have hitherto deployed against it. Scotland’s angry and resentful remain supporting majority have now been given a powerful reason for supporting independence as the quickest and easiest route to the restoration of our rights as European citizens which the Conservatives have stripped from us.The gleeful crowing of the Tories and their allies on social media is entirely misplaced. It’s as wrong as their belief that the pandemic was going to destroy any hope of independence. All that the Conservatives with their Brexit obsession have done is to put rocket boosters under the indy cause. Over the coming months support for independence is only going to grow even more – and it’s all due to the myopia and arrogance of British nationalism.

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390 comments on “Johnson’s deal puts rocket boosters under arguments for independence

  1. Johnson’s so called deal. Is a lot of Tosh. Scotland alone used to do that amount of business Itself. Therefore, if you extend that into the consideration. What exactly did the English do in the way of business with the European Union.
    If the breast deal is now £650 billion. What’s the English contribution to that.
    Or is that just for the English, and to hell with the Scottish market.
    Disgraceful deal for Scotland.

  2. Anne Watt says:

    I think you mean Michael Forsyth

  3. robert alexander harrison says:

    Hahaha they think they killed us of when really the noose is around there own neck oh thats to funny 18th century English nationalism really does make people stupid as Forsyth has just demonstrated.

    • bringiton says:

      Is Forsyth claiming that Brexit has killed independence stone dead?
      Now where have we heard that before?

  4. […] Wee Ginger Dug Johnson’s deal puts rocket boosters under arguments for independence It might have been a covid Christmas, but some seasonal traditions are sacred and […]

  5. One_Scot says:

    I hope you are right in all you say Paul, but I’m not as confident as you that an actual referendum will be delivered.

  6. JB says:

    Actually, I’d suggest that passport (or equivalent) checks would arise, but that it is nothing to fear.

    That could primarily arise out of Scotland deciding to run an independent immigration policy (since it wants more), and hence England would desire or require checks to prevent those folks from crossing in to England.

    If Scotland joined the EU (or simply Schengen) it would eventually have to have checks as part of the Schengen rules, so akin to what is currently being discussed in the context of Gibraltar.

    The way to avoid such checks would be for Scotland to join EFTA/EEA, but not Schengen, and hence agree to stay in the CTA as applies to ROI. Then we could have the same arrangements as apply between Ireland, UK, and the rest of EEA.

    Whereby there are pro-forma ID checks at ports & airports, the possibility of passport checks between GB and ROI, ID checks on flights between Ireland and GB (hence likewise between Scotland/England), but no checks as such at the England/Scotland border as long as immigration and visa rules stay aligned. Divergence on immigration rules may be more difficult for iScotland compared to Ireland, as there isn’t the inter-island possibility to check folks as a the enter or exit a ferry.

    Which all feeds in to why I’d view it as more sensible for iScotland to join EFTA then EEA, and stay there for a decade or two before then deciding if it wishes to join the EU. This would give the time to gradually adjust things, while regaining most of what people complain about having lost (the four freedoms of the Single Market).

  7. Capella says:

    Michel Barnier is a genius. “The clock is no longer ticking”. Indeed.

  8. Bob Lamont says:

    It has always been thus, X means it’s “all over for the SNP and hopes of independence”, fill in the X for the given subject at hand, Rain, Douglas Ross, White smoke from the Vatican Inn during a barbecue, it is the Tory and Labour default position to be repeated ad nauseum from Pacific Quay.

    A Brexit “Deal” at least is decided, as traders come to terms with it, (for the fish trade Petra described it best “FGS! 🙄🙄🙄”
    ) “taking back control” may soon wear off it’s appeal in those sunny uplands.

    Rocket boosters right enough…

  9. Alex Clark says:

    I’m on the EFTA first side also, would be so much simpler and get the ball rolling much more quickly. As you say in the article most of the necessary discussions with the other members of EFTA could be ongoing between a successful vote for Independence and the actual date of Independence.

    In the future, the Scottish people should decide if they want to become full members of the EU or not and I’d favour a referendum on that too. I doubt getting straight back into the EU on the date of Independence would be possible as first, we would have to know the terms that we can deal with the EU on. We won’t know the terms until the negotiations with Westminster are over, that wouldn’t apply with EFTA membership where we could negotiate very broad terms with them before becoming Independent and only then crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s.

    • JB says:

      I’d suggest there are three stages beyond independence:

      1) EFTA, 2) EEA, 3) EU

      EFTA alone would be quick, wouldn’t need much in terms of negotiation, but wouldn’t add much. It is however a precondition to applying to join EEA.

      EEA would take a while to negotiate as it is a framework which is then customised to each member, not an off the shelf package, each of the 3 existing EFTA/EEA members have a slightly different deal. This is due to the need to negotiate country specific protocols, and the EU itself would be a party to those negotiations. It would not need to involve fisheries, that could be done later as Norway did, so a making accession easier. I’d guess at a couple of years to negotiate and start to bring it online.

      The EU entry one is the larger one, and would take more time. That would then involve the interaction of the EU desired protective measures wrt rUK, hence why we should join EFTA/EEA first as providing an easier way to regain single market membership (albeit not for fisheries).

    • Golfnut says:

      I agree Alex, EFTA first, then on to EEA. It will be interesting to see how the EU reacts to a YES vote, obviously meeting the only requirement meeting the only legal requirement of the Scottish Constitution, a majority in favour. Will the EU offer membership?

      • Legerwood says:


        There has been a lot of positive statements emanating from the EU over the last 4 years about membership for Scotland from people at all levels in the EU. I just hope someone has kept a record so we can stick it under the Unionists’ noses every time they say we wont be allowed in.

    • A referendum for independent Scotland to decide if it wants back in the EU would be great.
      I think recently would be quick a few months the EU would be pleased to have us back one reason it would be pleased is to counter England’s leave edit

  10. Hamish100 says:

    I remember when the Stone of Destiny returned to Scotland. ( let’s assume it was the real one).

    In the dignitaries car in Edinburgh was 1 Michael Forsyth, SoSS ( who thought returning stolen goods would make us Scots so grateful) and the other was Prince Andrew whose face was like fizz. Why? Well as he passed my family we booed them as the car slowly passed.

    I looked around and saw a PC who had a Cheshire Cat grin on his face.

    As for Forsyth and Cosburg esq life has not turned out as they thought.

  11. jfngw says:

    Get ready for the MSM onslaught when the SNP vote against the deal, BBC & Herald have already fired their starting guns, BBC correspondents appearing to be tweeting out UK government spin rather than facts, all of it anti-SNP so far.

    Watch them, as far as they are concerned the Brexit excitement is over, it’s time to move onto defending the union.

    BBC Scotland news running story of ‘threat to hospital capacity’ on the same day positive virus cases fall to lowest for some days and rUK still high, no mention of hospital threat in those areas. Is it real or have they found a new unionist rent a quote.

  12. Astonished says:

    Like most I dearly wish for indyref2. However we need a new leader before that is likely to happen.
    The first minister has utterly wasted 6 years and prepared nothing regarding independence. She has to go.

    • weegingerdug says:

      nonsense it’s only recently we have had majorities for yes – there is fuck all point to an indyref if we were not going to win it.

    • Alex Clark says:

      Hahaha we’ve all heard that one, is that the best you’ve got?

    • P Harvey says:

      I was astonished at your comment
      What planet are you from…….

    • I’m astonished you say this
      Nicola Sturgeon provides a steady rise just what you need to disprove England’s Westminster story that independence has fallen flat

      • Astonished says:

        Surprised by the insults and the sweary word. Could you point out any concrete move the first minister has made toward achieving independence ? I genuinely cannot find any.

        Polls do not achieve change. Campaigns do.

        • Bob Lamont says:

          Early shift ?

        • Julia Gibb says:

          …and I came from Wings..and I brought wisdom to the non believers..the answer is to worship the word of the Rev..and abandon all hope!

          • Astonished says:

            Thank you for your reply Bob and Julia. Sadly it was insulting and didn’t answer my question.

            The first minister will use a victory in May to promote her two hobby horses. Unless those policies prevent her from winning, as seems likely. She has shown no inclination to promote indy with her previous mandates. And her secrecy is now unacceptable.

            Uniting for indy is a two way street. I assume, according to you two, I am the one that must ‘wheesht for indy’. And you can just carry on.

            I think you and the SNP are heading for a fall. I have tried to engage in some kind of dialogue.

            Obviously I’ve failed and I hold the first minister mainly responsible for the split in the party.

  13. Alex Clark says:

    Look at the state of the opposition, their desperation to get rid of the First Minister has become an obsession. Why would that be since she is a sleeper working for the Unionists, or so I’ve heard.

    Might it be because support for Independence has reached 58% in two of the last 4 polls?

    Might it be because with a majority at the election in May 2021 they will pass a referendum bill?

    Might it be because in a system designed to prevent any party having an overall majority they will get one anyway?

    Might it be because their armoury is empty and they have nothing left to offer?

    It is any and all of those, the SNP have been quietly putting in place the necessary legislation so as a referendum can take place as soon as we are over the Covid crisis. No wonder they are feeling sick.

    • A sleeper for the unionists ?
      Not a chance

      What we are seeing now is England’s Westminster ,the BBC radio and tv , the House of Lords
      ALL the newspapers , certain unions , the Labour Party , The Tory party and other britnats in their pay , all clubbing together acting in unison to coordinate their attacks on Nicola Sturgeon they have lost the argument about what’s best for Scotland and the people who live here so they resort to personal attacks .

      The assault on Nicola Sturgeon by the britnats is dirty , dodgy , vile , a pretence that it has anything to do with Nicola as a politician or her performance as First Minister of Scotland , the only reason for it is to protect the flow of money out of Scotland into the pockets of Westminster politicians .

      We have had it we are sick of their corruption and lies , we are a patient lot we put up with a lot we just get on with life there are more important things to be done each day than politics but we have reached the end of the road with this unionist crap, we are having Scottish independence and we are going to rid ourselves of this crazy house of cards that is the U.K.

      Bye bye England stand on your own feet and stop skimming off the cream of the other three countries we’ve all had enough

  14. Dr Jim says:

    I really don’t care if we join EFTA EEA EU or Billy Smart’s circus, anything is better than remaining controlled by Englands insular madness
    The North East fishing clowns, nobody in Scotland should speak to these people ever again after their night after night interventions on the British TV in Scotland screaming about their poor wee lives and incomes and SNP bad all orchestrated by Ruth Davidson and her Orange Lodge No Surrender mates who soley base their opposition to Scotland’s Independence on an unprovable religious conviction they nicked from Jewish people 2000 years ago rewrote it then perverted it into hating Catholics and anybody else who’s not them, then to top it all Davidson is given a peerage from her glorious leaders, not for her success as a politician because she totally failed at that, but for betraying Scotland which is far more important to England thus she must be rewarded so now will move on to the House of Lords, notice not Lordettes because they’re really modren in that big London where the women are still classed as appendaged helpers to the superior men

    As per usual in Scotchland the betrayers combine and unite to figure out how to keep hold of Scotland, they’ll threaten, they’ll cajole, they’ll throw money around at anybody who’ll oppose the SNP and particularly FM Nicola Sturgeon, and why? 17 Independence polls in a row show that she and her party are now virtually unassailable so must be stopped so serious is her threat to Englands power, so how do they do it, how does England stop Nicola Sturgeon , what kind of subversion can they use against her, how do they dent Scotlands belief in the most popular leader they’ve ever had, and there’s their problem, it’s not just about the FM and the SNP now, it’s about the people, and that’s how smart Nicola Sturgeon was because she gently nudged and suggested and persuaded and gave the job of moving Independence forward to the people and it’s been a success, so how does England tackle an idea that’s taken real hold on Scotland’s people? well they do it with another idea, enter the Alex Salmond deflection team, but I have to report this has gone down as well as the smell of bad fish with the Scottish public with the vast majority just holding their noses to the stink of a really obvious attempt to undermine the current FM and the SNP, and it’s not working

    So those who took Boris Johnson’s money in brown envelopes delivered by George Galloway and chums to subvert Scotland’s democracy have failed, but you never know maybe the English will reward them in some other way, but I doubt it, unless you were always one of *them* then you’ll never be one of *them* so you’ll always smell of bad fish, or Michael Gove, same smell

  15. Alex Clark says:

    Union Jack now doing his best to get the SNP to support Johnson’s dogs dinner of a “deal” with the EU. He says that the SNP will “pay the price” for opposing the Brexit deal.

    “The people of Scotland will expect their MPs to do the right thing on Wednesday and vote for the deal.

    “They will not easily forgive those who reject this Free Trade Agreement or throw their weight behind a no-deal Brexit.”

    This is typical, and the main thrust of this article. That this Brexit deal will be the end of the SNP and support for Independence as Michael Forsyth tweeted is all a load of absolute bollocks of course,

    Just as it is a load of old cobblers that the SNP will pay any price for opposing this deal. The opposite is much more likely closer to the truth as Labour in Scotland might be about to find out if Starmer supports this Tory Brexit deal in the vote.

    Wishful thinking from Union Jack is a much more accurate description. He is bricking it, pure and simple.

    • Dr Jim says:

      Scotlands people voted to reject Brexit and the SNP have taken their instruction from the people and are doing as they’ve been asked, but for some reason the Bathistan Chronicle sees this as *grandstanding* and not as the people the FM and SNP would see it as a clear signal to the EU that Scotland wanted no part of this madness and we’ll talk in January

      Democracy by the people seems to be a real problem for the blogger who calls himself *we*, just like a Liberal Democrat to cry one thing then do another, pathetic

  16. yesindyref2 says:

    Pretty much, as Macart would say.

    But Indy Ref 2 does need to be soon, next year really, before people adapt too much.

    • Alex Clark says:

      You would need the wisdom of Solomon to declare anytime soon a date for a referendum next year. I too agree that next year absolutely should be the date but the fly in the ointment at the moment is of course Covid.

      Until Cocid is absolutely deemed to be under control I can’t see how a date for the next referendum can be fixed or put into a bill at Holyrood. There is though hope with the vaccine rollout but I suspect it will be late spring or early summer before we can be confident that the virus is on the retreat.

      However, that is still time for a referendum in the Autumn and I suspect that’s the most we can hope for, I’m not trying to be negative just realistic. Until the virus is under control there will be no announcement of the next referendum is how I see things.

      • Tatu3 says:

        However New Zealand had an election during Covid this year, as did USA. I think others did too, but not too sure – S. Korea, Singapore, Iceland?
        So I don’t see why Scotland shouldn’t/couldn’t, just maybe needs a bit more preparation? Especially as there is now a vaccine.

        • Eilidh says:

          New Zealand had very low levels of Covid compared to us. How do you campaign for a referendum in a pandemic with the virus levels we have. People wouldn’t answer the door to canvassers and holding public meetings would be nigh on impossible until the virus is under control. The Snp winning a majority in the Scottish Parliament is an absolute neccessity. No way I will be giving either of my votes to any wee diddy Indy party. Unless substantial progress is made to control the virus even holding the election will be problematic

      • andyfromdunning says:

        The issue is Covid but it must be over to allow a proper campaign to get us marching, street stalls etc, that is why the referendum will be in May 22 or earlier.!

  17. Elmac says:

    What a shambles and what a sorry pass we have come to when the SNP MPs have to vote on the ludicrous Brexit deal, or no deal at all, or abstain. There are no other options. Much as it pains me the “deal” negotiated by the Tories just about beats the adverse effects of no deal. To abstain means our MPs don’t care what is best for our people in this situation – just simply what is better for them which just about sums up the attitude of the majority of the current crop of SNP MPs. They are more concerned with toeing the party line than doing the right thing.

    We need rid of this stranglehold that the Sturgeon cabal have over the SNP. Face up to it, there will never be Independence with the Murrells in charge. That would be the equivalent of them shooting themselves in the financial foot. Their motivation is not the greater good of Scotland, it is the greater good of themselves. Nobody in the upper echelons of the SNP have so far put their head over the parapet to call out these charlatans and no alternative independence parties look likely to mount a challenge. If the dam does not break soon then, as I have said many times on here, the only way is to starve them out in cash terms. Stop paying members subs or donations and do not assist with any fund raising. If there is no cash to pay their fat cat salaries you will not see the Murrells and their entourage for dust.

    • Alex Clark says:

      You’re scraping the bottom of the barrel in trying to find another angle for SNP and Sturgeon BAD. Get the finger out and find a new approach as it really is becoming embarrassing now.

      • PHarvey says:


      • Elmac says:

        The only embarrassment is to Scotland. 6 years of doing nothing to promote independence and sitting on mandate after mandate. Covid has been convenient for her, what’s next? Wait till global warming is resolved?

        • Alex Clark says:

          “Covid has been convenient for her”

          That’s something else, I feel sorry for you that you have to stoop so low. Shame on you.

          • Elmac says:

            That does not compute. In other words drivel. The point is that NS has had ample opportunity to push for independence yet has sat on her posterior and she will use what ever she can to justify further delay. There is none so blind and so on…

            Enough of this, we are both basically on the same side but have different opinions of the dear leader. I sincerely hope I am wrong but I guess that will be ascertained by the passage of time. Unfortunately time is running out for Scotland.

            • Alex Clark says:

              See if you weren’t so prejudiced then you would look and you would find that Nicola Sturgeon hasn’t sat on her hands at all. Are you really ignorant of the Referendum Bill that has already been passed in Holyrood and all we need now is the date and the question?

              Seek and you shall find but I guess you don’t want to hear this or will just dismiss it anyway because of your prejudice.

              See what I’m saying?

              Is 58% support not good enough for you? Who do you suggest we put in Nicola Sturgeon’s place as leader in order that support will be higher. Come on now, the floor is yours and I’m all ears.

              Who will be the chosen one?

            • Hamish100 says:

              No she did not.

              She has had Brexit to negotiate. 2 general elections self imposed by the tories as a result – 3 different PM’s. We then have a world pandemic. Hardly convenient? Warped mindset there as people die.

              Your patronising “dear leader” comment is often seen elsewhere on blogs attacking the snp, the FM and Independence.

              Some believe AS will now lead us to independence conveniently forgetting he had his chance and failed. Others are fighting his case but I have to say in my household my wife, daughters son and wider family will not follow him. He burnt his boat long ago and let the side down. Most of the public don’t care about the investigation. They have their own worries. Harsh? But true. A small clique will go to the wire of the Scottish election preferring to bring down Nicola Sturgeon than support a win. Such is the twisted and perverse view of some.

              So the reality is that we sit with constant polls at 55% and above for Independence, we have an election in 5 months.

              The choice is whether you support Independence or you do nothing and allow unionist parties to take control in Scotland or just as bad, to draw.

              For either of the two last options we will never see Independence in our lifetime.

              That’s the hard choice for the people who undermine the 2 main independence parties.

              Do you support SNP 1 & 2 or SNP 1 & Greens 2.

              The other Indy parties are nowhere and will only drag 1% of votes away helping britnats.

              So grit your teeth and help independence or help unionism instead.

              Time to choose.

          • Julia Gibb says:


        • keaton says:

          6 years of doing nothing to promote independence and sitting on mandate after mandate

          The SNP have, at best, a mandate from one election (2016) to pursue a referendum, and that vaguely worded. What other mandates do you imagine exist?

          • Statgeek says:

            2015 – 56/59 seats (94.9%)
            2016 – Majority with Greens
            2016 – 62% Remain in Brexit
            2017 – 35/59 seats (59.3%)
            2019 – 48/59 seats (81.4%)

            17 polls with Aye in the lead, and nothing announced, other than “Let’s win the 2021 election, and then we’ll see.”

            The Greens aren’t talking much about it either, and seem to be fully invested in this gender row (Andy Wightman). In essence, the Indy parties’ focus has been hijacked by people with other priorities.

            Or we await proof to the contrary.

    • P Harvey says:


      Think you have posted on here by mistake
      Abstaining makes a political point and does not mean, as you say, they do not care about the people
      We are educated on this site and will not fall for your blatant anti SNP claptrap

      • Alex Clark says:

        The SNP will vote against this “deal”.

        They would never support a hard Brexit and that is exactly what Johnson has agreed. Scotland voted to remain and the SNP must respect that vote and vote against this Tory Brexit “deal”. That is what they will do, unlike Labour.

    • Stephen McKenzie says:

      Are you sure this is the site you actually meant to post on?

      “as I have said many times on here”, Really 🙂

    • “Much as it pains me the “deal” negotiated by the Tories just about beats the adverse effects of no deal. To abstain means our MPs don’t care what is best for our people in this situation – just simply what is better for them which just about sums up the attitude of the majority of the current crop of SNP MPs. They are more concerned with toeing the party line than doing the right thing.”

      Get back where you belong. You have not commented here ‘many times’.
      It is an absolute folly to even debate with you ‘elmac’. ‘Ex Pat’ Jock in Spain?

      2021 is the year of Independence.

      It is unthinkable that we entertain tommyrot which you and other virus attempt on here, and the pathetic trolling garbage in an effort to destroy the SNP, elect a new leader of some yet to be formed party, and go again.
      You talk subjective muck raking mince, sir, madam, or 77h Brigade IT generated SND BAd, Nikla worser scattergun rubbish.
      Go away, or more accurately join the Tooting Popular Front.

      We are not interested in any Brexit deal.
      We are taking our country back, not beating the adverse effects of no deal.

      There is no compromise. England is not our colonial overlord.

      I note the trail of subsequent troll one liners below.
      Go away.


    • yesindyref2 says:

      That was excellent satire Elmac, a take-off of the other place and the wacko conspiracyness of its few residents. Almost fooled me for a minute 🙂

    • A Bruce says:

      There is another option Elmac. There are actually 4 options; Vote Yes, No, Abstain, or Walk out. Scotland voted No to Brexshit, so there is only one option; walk into the chamber and just before the vote, all stand up and walk out, maybe even grabbing the mace on the way out. That would really make international headlines and fire up our support. England voted for Brexshit; let them own it, and Labour, if they’re so stupid.
      I am also not keen on the duopoly of the Murrells but it is like it is and I think it is too late to change leaders.

      • Liz g says:

        Well there’s actually another option.
        My favourite by far.
        All the Scottish MPs ( that’s 40 odd ) stand up throughout the debate and speak up for Scotland,they should refuse to shut up and
        ****Cause Westminster to throw them out**** .
        To vote or not wouldn’t then be the choice of Scotlands MPs the Westminster system would have removed it from them because they stood up for Scotland.

        That would be the headlines Europe wide.
        Boris Johnstons thunder completely stolen.
        There would be questions going forward on how legitimate the vote is if the other half of the Union ain’t there.
        We would have a bit of fun claiming Mr Speaker ended the Union by sending the Scottish MPs home.
        There might be some more wee gems from the Unionists MPs showing more contempt while lots of Scots are watching .
        That’s the Broadcast of this vote I’d love to see .
        And it wouldn’t hurt the SNPs voting chance come may either..

  18. Lesley McDonald says:

    No mistake in my post. I have supported Scottish independence for over 50 years and will do so to my last breath. I simply state the obvious. Open your eyes before you open your mouths might be good advice.

  19. Elmac says:

    No mistake in my post. I have supported Scottish independence for over 50 years and will do so to my last breath. I simply state the obvious. Open your eyes before you open your mouths might be good advice.

    Merry Christmas to all and best wishes for a Covid free 2021 and a vote to free us of Westminster’s clutches.

    • Alex Clark says:

      Advice that you might like to follow.

      • Elmac says:

        No, it was intended for you and your ilk.

        • Alex Clark says:

          My ilk? Scotland will never get Independence if it remained on 45% support.

          Under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership support for Independence has risen to 58% and from where I’m sitting it looks a whole lot more likely now that we can gain Independence under this leadership.

          Open your eyes before you open your mouth might be good and stop trying to black out the reality in favour of your prejudices.

          • Elmac says:

            No prejudice, just common sense. The increase in the yes vote is due to Brexit and Boris and would have been higher under a leader who was prepared to push the independence agenda aggressively. Even Noddy could have increased the vote in recent circumstances. As I said open your eyes is good advice.

            • Alex Clark says:

              No prejudice LOL

              It oozes out of every pore in your body, you reek of prejudice.

              • Elmac says:

                Fact is not prejudice. You do not know me, nor what I might reek of. I suggest we halt this before it descends further below playground level.

                Remember we both want to see an independent Scotland, as long as we get there soon all of our repartee will be meaningless.

                • Alex Clark says:

                  What fact? You have presented no facts at all, just an opinion.

                  I doubt you have even tried to look for facts of what the SNP have been doing to prepare for another Independence referendum. I’ve posted these facts on this website many times. It takes effort to do so, you will find them if you choose to.

                  I don’t know you but I know what you reek of. It stinks.

                • Petra says:

                  The thing is we do know you and you do reek, imo, when you give vent to such unsubstantiated guff. You’re an acolyte to someone who owns a blog that promotes Westminster’s aims and yet you expect individuals on here to take you seriously. And as you mention ”descending further below playground level”, I see that you’ve made at least two posts on Mings over Scotland bragging, like a daft wee schoolboy, about posting on here to cause trouble. A daft wee schoolboy that’s been brainwashed by the head master. Time to grow up and start thinking for yourself.

    • AlexClark says:

      Scotland will never get Independence if it remained on 45% support.

      Under Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership support for Independence has risen to 58% and from where I’m sitting it looks a whole lot more likely now that we can gain Independence under this leadership.

      Open your eyes before you open your mouth might be good and stop trying to black out the reality in favour of your prejudices.

  20. Alex Clark says:

    Johnson’s deal is a great deal. Aye right!

    Britons told to get health insurance and check mobile roaming before going to EU

  21. ScotsCanuck says:

    …. I will only say this, it has come to a bad juncture when fellow “Independistas” (aye, they’re are bad actors infiltrating the posts) … start to openly ‘bad mouth’ the F.M. without any proof positive of the allegations …. now, I know there have been rumours of collusion by the F.M. over the Salmond trial …. but they are just that … Rumours !!! … until substantiated she has the right of innocence until otherwise proven different.
    The more mote point is that we are divided amongst ourselves at the very moment when we can succeed in our goal of Independence ….. don’t let us once again “snatch defeat from the jaws of Victory” ….. our Sons & Daughters will never forgive us over that ….. eyes on the Prize people !!

  22. Dr Jim says:

    It’s OK everybody he’s gone back to report to his cell in Bath where he *knows* the SNP have lost some of their members and he *knows* they have *purloined* funds and that’s why everybody who has a brain calls it the website full of psychics who all seem to know stuff that the rest of the world don’t because their dear leader the great Abu Campsa from Bathistan tells them in suggestions and innuendo every day and if any one person dares to disagree they get the F off treatment, y’know because here on Wee Ginger Dug we apparently stifle debate

    I think what some people call *debate* most normal people hear foul mouthed insults from a subversive wee angry man begging his followers to amplify the noise

    I’m stopping now before I get really annoyed and stray into the same kind of bad behaviour becoming just as stupid as those folk who have fallen for that garbage

  23. Capella says:

    There have been a few “interventions” lately from the guilty-till-proven-innocent (logically impossible to prove a negative as we know) school of jurisprudence.
    It’s almost as if there is a desperate need to discredit Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP and Independence.
    I’m happy to wait for some evidence.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Agreed, sowing such dissent is an old trick, the Tories and the British State are past masters at this sort of stuff, which is why the two are so easily mistaken for each another.
      Now that that Brexit propaganda is off their work schedule, we can expect ever more grenades being tossed into each and every debate or discussion, even though I’m sure Paul will keep a lid on the excesses.
      Whether BBC HYS or comments on National articles, the objective is clear enough, divide and conquer.

    • Petra says:

      I’m happy to wait for some evidence too and so far there has been none, nought, zilch. I’ll wait to hear what Alex Salmond (January 19) and Nicola Sturgeon (January 26) have to say, rather than 2 online sweetie-wives, paying particular attention to the serious accusations that were made previously about Nicola Sturgeon being part of a (3) female cabal focused on sending AS to prison.

      And there is a desperate need to discredit Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP and that’s because she and that particular political party are the Scots ONLY hope of getting our country out of the Unionist h*ll-hole. The Unionists have deemed her to be the ”most dangerous woman in Britain totally capable of breaking up the UK.” In saying that it’s blatantly clear then that it’s Unionists, and only Unionists, that want rid of her.


      ‘Andrew Tickell: How Scots have learned to love independence in 2020.’

      ..”What I object to is being obliged to accept being collateral damage in this utilitarian calculation. What I object to is the insistence that I should be grateful – and must submit to – the persistent marginalisation of our political interests and preferences in an unbalanced union. What I object to is the persistent efforts to convince the population of this country that the demand for greater self-government is a badge of small-mindedness rather than evidence that I take the real material and social conditions which prevail in this country seriously. What I object to is the idea this is manufacturing grievances – rather than an effort to transcend them, and to take responsibility for our own successes and failures.”..

      • Petra says:

        Joanna Cherry QC:- ”Some follow up thoughts on a great piece by Andrew Tickell: ‘How Scots have learned to love independence in 2020.’ LOOKING back over this strange year, when much else feels like it is in permanent stasis, one major shifts the last 12 months has been the…

        Andrew says; “Now, the idea of independence in the lead and the Union in retreat is a banal fact of Scottish life.” As others have pointed out this has parallels with where we were with #devolution post the 1992 General election.

        But then, Scotland had to wait for Westminster to catch up with us before we got devolution. 5 years passed before a party that supported devolution came to power at Westminster and held a referendum.

        That won’t happen this time because Labour are as hostile to #indyref2 as the Tories. I want a legitimate internationally recognised #independence vote because without that #indy won’t be delivered but it is risky to peril all on Westminster’s say so.

        We’re also in a very different situation from 2012 because Cameron would never have signed the Edinburgh Agreement with Alex Salmond if he thought Yes had a hope of winning & the fact that nevertheless Yes did so well alarmed the unionist establishment.

        The big difference now from ‘92 is that we have our own parliament albeit with limited powers. All these factors influence me & others to think a fallback position would be prudent. So I’m glad the SNP National Assembly will discuss this in January.

        I would be over the moon if Westminster made it easy for us to hold a second #indyref the outcome of which would be internationally recognised but I fear they won’t that’s why I’ve argued for a fallback position in the event of no section 30 agreement.

        The last time this PM tried to defy democracy with the unlawful #prorogation we defeated him. Parliamentary democracy was protected by the actions of Scottish politicians through Scotland’s courts. With the right circumstances this could happen again.

        So yes let’s look forward with optimism but let’s learn from the past whilst acknowledging that things are rather different now. And, as always, let’s acknowledge that debate, discussion & forward planning are good things.”

        • Alex Clark says:

          “debate, discussion & forward planning are good things.”

          I agree that these are very good things, but so too is not revealing your hand to your opponent while the game is still in play, that’s why it’s good advice to play your cards close to your chest.

          If your opponent knows what you’ve got then he has an advantage over you because you have not seen his cards.

          The same goes for any tactical situation, whether that is negotiating a Brexit deal or building a path towards winning Independence from another country that is determined to hold on at all costs.

          Only a fool would tell their enemy what they plan to do if they won’t play ball.

          Debate, discuss and plan. These are necessities but whatever you decide to do then keep it under your hat or your opponent will do their utmost to thwart your carefully laid plans that you have told them all about.

  24. Capella says:

    Another example of guilty-till-proven-innocent, The National investigates the photo of NS which ended up on the front page of The Sun.

  25. jfngw says:

    The man that was outwitted by Kezia Dugdale is now writing his new book (not really just the usual SNP attack on a blog) ‘The Tactics of Success for Dummies’. Apparently they should be voting for the Boris deal as anything else is just grandstanding. That’s right he thinks you can vote for a deal then have a referendum because it is a bad deal, what a tactician!

    How can you say something is bad for your country but then support it, the claim is the alternative is worse but anyone with experience with the EU knows negotiations are never just closed down, they want cooperation, how is it known they will not extend the transition and continue if requested.

    Even if they won a referendum afterwards how could they negotiate any fishing deal with the EU that was different from what they had already voted for when in the UK, the EU would see this as the starting point (they will anyway but we would be on the back foot from the off).

    I’m glad the starter is over as we can now move onto the main course of independence.

    • Dr Jim says:

      If it talks like a Brit, writes like a Brit, it’s probably paid by a Brit, or the festering hatred has driven it to insanity, I’ll put a quid on it being the first thing though

      • jfngw says:

        Even better now, he is actually posting Andrew Neil, Alex Massie, etc tweets to prove his point. What he seems to miss is they will attack the SNP no matter how they vote. If they vote for it then why are they wanting a referendum when they supported the Brexit deal, it’s a win-win situation for them on the propaganda front.

        I pointed this out a few days ago, there is no good position for the SNP in this vote, they need to vote for what is best for Scotland in the future and what negotiating position that puts us in when independence comes.

        As for the Nostradumbass from Bath, he can remain comfortable in the SE of England.

        • Old Pete says:

          “Shite Over Scotland” is fastly becoming a British Nationalist, anti-SNP propoganda machine.
          Sad that so many of ” Shite Over Scotland” followers believe and support him without question.
          Infiltrate, disrupt, defeat then destroy, it’s the English government’s way of controlling its colonies. Let’s hope not to many fall for “Lord haw-haw” from Bath and his spiteful hate against Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.
          Hope all true Independence supporters have a great 2021and hopefully a free Scotland to.

          • Alex Clark says:

            The majority of the Scottish public support Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP, that support continues to grow, that’s all we need to know.

  26. Dr Jim says:

    I’ve just learned from the BBC news interviewing slimy Gove that even if you’ve had the vaccine and travel restrictions become OK over time you can’t travel to any EU countries unless you have at least 6 months left on your British passport, my passport is up and I don’t intend to have another British passport because I’m obviously hoping for something Scottishy better when it comes but there are folk who travel for holidays two or three times per year, or business users who travel much more regularly into the EU so the the cost of probably two passports per year looks like being added to your travel arrangements

    If this is accurate, when the public finds out about this they’ll go nuts because nobody told anybody about this and the folk in the south of England who nip across the channel regularly for their booze cruises and holiday homes will be in for a serious disappointment, of course the British will blame the evil EU I suppose and the folk who voted for Brexit will blame them too because how dare those damn Johnny foreigners not allow the English to do and go where they like when they like, because war Spitfires Bombers Flags Queen Jerusalem

    • Eilidh says:

      “but there are folk who travel for holidays two or three times per year, or business users who travel much more regularly into the EU so the the cost of probably two passports per year looks like being added to your travel arrangements”

      Dr Jim not sure if it is the way you have written the above but passports will still be valid for 10 years but badically if you want to travel to EU now you will get 9.5 years use out of it as you will need 6 months left on it to be able to travel there which is really annoying. Although that is the same as what has been needed to travel to USA for years

  27. Lesley Herrera says:

    Does this mean that Brexit Gov still has to maintain and uphold EU human rights & freedom? Personally l would prefer my Scottish passport and cut to the chase freedom of movement wld prefer EU/Ireland & Wales without a thought of crossing the borders. UK gov is what it is and its about time everyone see, s them for what a shambolic state of affairs they are.
    They are like Victoria drag aliens.
    All without prejudice stating facts.

  28. Derick Tulloch says:

    Good to see the EFTA option getting some airtime. It has numerous advantages. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

    1 Much simpler accession criteria than the EU, hence potentially years faster than EU Accession. For the latter see An Independent Scotland in the EU: Issues for Accession, Edited by Kirsty Hughes | 17 March 2020. If Kirsty says EU accession would take 5 years after independence, that is the time it would take. Experts and that.
    We will need to be independent to formally apply for membership, but if we pre-negotiate terms during the gap between an independence vote and independence day and we could be a member within days of independence.

    2 No need to meet the Copenhagen criteria, which means no need for years of punishing austerity to do so. It’s simply not an issue for EFTA membership. And removes the ‘deficit’ scare story

    3 EFTA has 29 trade deals with 40 countries, which would be available to Scotland immediately on membership. A good in itself.

    4 EFTA membership is a stepping stone to EEA membership. It’s the EEA that delivers the Four Freedoms. Recent EEA accessions have taken less than a year. Scotland is fully compliant with the phyto-sanitary. EFTA-EEA is the fastest way to recover freedom of movement for our people and freedom of trade for our companies

    5 EFTA members are not in the Customs Union. Which means that we can adjust the Anglo-Scottish Border to be ‘soft’. And which, in conjunction with the British Isles Common Travel area, effectively removes ‘The Border’ as a unionist scare story.

    6 Fishing, and Agriculture. Not big sectors but being outwith the Common Fisheries Policy and Common Agricultural Policy have advantages.

    7 A political point. Taking into account only the views of the 62%, and ignoring or ridiculing the views of the 38% is a very ‘British’ majoritarian approach. A more Continental style of politics seeks consensus and compromise. EFTA-EEA is such a compromise as it delivers the practical advantages of European integration without the perceived disadvantages. I don’t agree with the 38%, but one can disagree, and seek compromise

    I commend it to the body of the Kirk.

  29. Petra says:

    I see that jfngw has outlined his views on the SNP’s position in relation to the forthcoming vote. Any other views as to whether they should vote yes to the deal, no or abstain?


    ‘Ruth Wishart: Enough gaslighting … Scotland is done with this marriage.’

    ..”The bride, as we know, was given away by a bunch of posh relations, while her more plebeian country folk protested up and down the land. But in 1707, money and promise of preferment talked the loudest. Plus ca change. Scotland was apparently awarded one more seat in the English parliament than Cornwall. And handed some cash to compensate for the fact that she was debt-free while her new spouse assuredly wasn’t.”..

    ..”It became a triumph of gaslighting; persuading Scotland that she was financially incapable of standing on her own feet. That she lacked the experience and intelligence to make it as a singleton. That nothing good would ever come of getting ideas above her station. And, as we know, if you tell a lie often enough, it gains traction.”..

    • Dr Jim says:

      I think it’s pretty easy Scotland said no thanks we don’t want any part of Brexit and we said it louder than any other nation, now the English and their trolling minions want our representatives to vote for a part of the English governments deal, how can our representatives possibly do that when we instructed them by 62% to say NO to being any part of it, that would be a betrayal of the original vote

      Scotland has to vote NO because if it doesn’t then we are complicit in our own downfall later when the Tories Labour and the rest begin shouting about how we took part in whatever outcome is reached by them, because it’s not over yet

      Make the Union party of Britain own what they’ve done by telling them clearly to sod off with any of their proposals when Scotland had no part in creating the mess, the 27 countries of the EU now get a vote to decide the final outcome and have been involved in the process the whole way through, Scotland as *part* of this English dominated dictatorship of a laughable Union was kept out of everything, some Union eh, is it the language difference the English have a problem with, nah it’s just their racist attitude towards Scotland and Scottish people

      The trouble with Scotland is it’s full of Scots, the verminous race, I think we know fine well who the vermin are in this Union

    • Legerwood says:

      They vote No to the Brexit deal. Apart from the fact that the people of Scotland made it clear they did not want Brexit the SNP would lose all credibility if they voted for this deal. Such a vote would be used against them when they campaign for Independence and EU membership. Something along the lines of ‘well the Brexit deal was good enough for you before so why full membership now?’

      • Petra says:

        Exactly Dr Jim / Legerwood. The SNP would lose all credibility in the eyes of the Scottish electorate and that’s what ”some people” seemingly want. Discrediting? It’s been their modus operandi for quite some time now in fact, so why change tactics now?

    • Alex Clark says:

      Support the hardest of hard Brexit deals negotiated by Johnson and side with the likes of Gove, Patel, Rees-Mogg, DRoss, Union Jack and Mundell.

      No thanks, I think I’d vote against this crappy “deal” too.

  30. yesindyref2 says:

    `Twas Brexit, and the slimy Gove
    Dump cod and flounder in the wake:
    All haddock were the lying Gove,
    And Tory rats threw away hake.

    “Beware the Brexiteers, my son!
    The BoJos that bite, that limit that catch!
    Beware the Jackjack Raaber, and shun
    The spaffing Billionssnatch!”

  31. Petra says:

    Welcome to the future, negotiations without end 🙄.

    ‘Key questions about UK’s relationship with EU still unanswered, experts warn, after deal published.’

    ”Many key aspects of the UK’s future relationship with the EU are still up in the air, experts have warned, despite Downing Street hailing its Brexit deal as a “moment of national renewal”. The 1,255-page document – published on Saturday – left numerous questions unanswered about professional qualifications, asylum rights, financial services and other issues, they said. The text also contains no fewer than 244 references to “arbitration tribunals” and a further 170 to a “partnership council” – the bodies that will decide the details and settle future disputes, hinting at further negotiations. Anton Spisak, a Brexit expert at the Tony Blair Institute, said 19 specialised committees and four working groups would hold at least 21 meetings each year, excluding aspects affecting Northern Ireland.”..


    Phantom Power:- ”The UK Govt’s Hard Brexit Deal is ‘the worst economic decision made by any country in peacetime in 1000 years’ but there are reasons for Scotland to look forward. #ScottishIndependence.”

  32. jfngw says:

    As we follow the ‘Scottish’ bloggers, it’s amazing how many actually don’t live in Scotland, and they sow their seed of discontent with NS. They want us to micro examine every aspect of the NS/AS relationship. Meanwhile the BritNats are laughing up their sleeves at the prospect of taking out both of them in a pincer movement run by ‘independence’ supporters.

    They say it doesn’t matter as another leader will emerge, this is true but what the BritNats want is a delay. This they suspect will see a loss of impetus as you cannot keep people on high alert forever, many will grow tired of the battle and they see this as the opportunity to try and restore their normal.

    We cannot let this happen, it has before as Scots are out manoeuvred as they bicker over trivialities. Those demanding our politicians must be whiter than white, honourable to unachievable levels, match our own judgement of morals, they don’t really want independence if we are no better than others.

    With power comes corruption, it will happen in Scotland as does everywhere, we can only hope we make laws to minimise it. We cannot make those laws whilst attached to one of the most corrupt parliaments on the planet. Do we reject democracy for Scotland because our politicians will not be perfect.

    • Petra says:

      ”As we follow the ‘Scottish’ bloggers, it’s amazing how many actually don’t live in Scotland.”

      I wonder where they come from jfngw 😀?

      What I have been wondering about is this. Can blog owners tell which country people actually come from? Does anyone know?

  33. Kenzie says:

    Please forgive my naivete here, genuine question: is there any reason why Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond cannot pool their intellectual resources for the good of Scotland? Or would that entail a clash of egos to the detriment of Scotland?

    Seriously, why on earth, with so much at stake, are we fighting amongst ourselves?

    • jfngw says:

      Politicians will be politicians, to get to the top you need a ruthless streak, they don’t relinquish power willingly, they are always on the lookout for those trying to dislodge them. I fear the breakdown in the NS/AS relationship is irreparable (I don’t have any inside knowledge but I have been around a while and seen partnerships breakdown on many occasions, they rarely recover).

      So I can’t worry about their relationship, I don’t sit on either side, I support the person who has the best chance to deliver independence, that is the current SNP leader.

    • Dr Jim says:

      While Alex was found to be not guilty of any crime it doesn’t mean he wasn’t guilty of let’s call it lapses of judgement, when you’re in the top job of the SNP open to the criticism of Westminster and its media who are out to destroy the party and Independence, basically you’re out and that’s it, there’s no coming back or you’re crucified and the cause along with it

      Also remember Alex was not popular with women voters, Nicola Sturgeon is not only popular with all demographics but much loved by many, the divisions are being used to bring the SNP down which in turn delays Scotland’s progress, and that’s what Boris Johnson has spent £5 million on the internet to help create

    • yesindyref2 says:

      So, with Holyrood called back for an emergency deal debate on Wednesday with just 2 days then to the end of the transition, we have to wonder if anything dramatic might happen.

      • The linesman Dross will be running the line at the St Johnstone Hamilton game while Holyrood and WM tackle the Brexit Suicide pact?

        He’ll be on his lap top in the Officials’ Changing Room pretending that he is concentrating on his ‘day job’ instead of coining in another fat SFA fee.

        He lied about Fishing, Agriculture, and voted for the UKIM.
        I wonder where he finds the time….

  34. Petra says:

    No worth the paper it’s written on 🙄. The iconic blue post-Brexit British passport made by a French-Dutch company in Poland 😀 .

    ‘The British state confirms it is too weak and cowardly to stand up for its own.’

    ”The British state via the Foreign Office, headed up by Dominic Raab has confirmed that British citizens arrested overseas through no fault of their own have no right to the government’s assistance or protection, even if they are tortured or held as diplomatic leverage against their country. In 2016, just before the EU referendum that led to Brexit, the British passport was the most powerful passport in the world according to the Global Passport Power Index. Today, it is ranked 18th behind countries such as Portugal and Greece with Germany, Sweden and Finland taking the top three positions for the first time in history. Worse still, British citizens now find themselves in the unnerving position of knowing that the British passport, is in fact, now just a travel document but otherwise completely worthless.”


    ‘Why does England vote Tory?’

    ..”Perhaps more significant, though, are two other differences. The first is that English voters overwhelmingly think that the empire was a good thing, while Scottish voters narrowly think it was bad. The second is that there is significantly less support for the monarchy in Scotland – 53% vs 69% for Britain as a whole, according to one recent poll.”..

    • Tatu3 says:

      I worked in the British High Commission in Tanzania, many years ago, and we were told that the office and staff were there to help the Tanzanians, not the British.

  35. Petra says:

    WoW! Great deal 😀.

    Martin Daubney:- ”THREAD ON FISHING: I’ve spent hours poring over the #BrexitDeal

    * There are 87 species of fish subject to shared EU/UK quotas

    * In 2020, across them all, UK gets average 33.6% of quotas

    * In 2026, it “rises” to 35.92%

    >> So the UK gets just 2.32% more fish after Brexit <<


    'Just 4 (3) more days left of the transition period.'

    ..''Scotland’s greatest advantage in moving to independence is ENERGY and I am not talking here about oil and gas or our considerable renewable advantages but the ENERGY that will be released by the people of Scotland as we embrace the opportunities independence will bring.''..

  36. Petra says:

    ‘Wales must be allowed to choose its future’ says Price as Drakeford calls for ‘rethink’ if Scotland goes.’

    ..”“As First Minister (Adam Price), I would take a pro-active approach to our constitutional future as a nation, in contrast to Mark Drakeford’s passive policy of refusing to consider the matter until Scotland votes to become independent, a policy which would allow us only 18 months to pass legislation, hold a referendum and implement its result,” he said.”..


    Check out Ann’s latest links on the Indyref2 site.

    • Dr Jim says:

      At least for a Labour politician Mark Drakeford must be commended for pushing back at his own party and calling for democracy even though slowly

  37. Petra says:

    ‘From Global Britain to Plague Island, Welcome to Brexitland.’

    ..”I’d suggest it’s a bealach not a portal but that Roy is right. For all of the political failure the pandemic has exposed the fault lines of our broken society, like the ribs of a wrecked boat at an extremely low-tide, the outline of British society disfigured by inequality is laid bare for all to see, as is the failure of elite rule by silver-tongued Etonian Populists.”..


    Scotland? What a country 😎. You never know what you might find down the back of your couch … if you live in Scotland 😀.

    ‘Piece of Great Pyramid found in cigar tin in Scotland could unlock mystery to how they were built.’

    ..”I’m an archaeologist and have worked on digs in Egypt, but I never imagined it would be here in northeast Scotland that I’d find something so important to the heritage of my own country.” With this entirely ‘chance discovery’, the academics there can sleep peacefully knowing they’ve made the discovery of an item over 5,000 years old. It is one of only three objects dating back to the Wonder of the Ancient world – it’s like a World Cup win for any archaeologist.”..

  38. jfngw says:

    Latest ‘bloggers’ reason to vote for the Brexit deal is because the DUP will also be voting against it and the SNP should not go through the same voting lobby as the DUP. Apparently going through the same lobby as the Conservatives is perfectly acceptable to them.

    There seems to a clique of Alex Salmond devotees who believe he is going to rise like a phoenix and deliver independence, the detritus that follows in his wake will be ignored by the media in their deluded minds.

    I have the greatest respect for Alex Salmond but I know when you are damaged below the hull and will take everyone down with you if they stay onboard.

  39. Petra says:

    What a selfish, arrogant little sh*t. They didn’t require to inform him at all, as he knows the bl**dy rules but with his sense of entitlement reckons that he can break them. Not a good look for someone aspiring to be a Scottish politician, is it?

    ‘Queen of the South issue ‘fuller apology’ for George Galloway attendance.’

    ..”But mainland Scotland was put into tier four at midnight on Christmas Day, which forbids stadia being open to spectators, and Queens admit they “should have informed Mr Galloway that he could no longer attend”.


    That’s no worked either.

    ‘Oh dear, getting Brexit done has actually driven immigration numbers up – is this what you promised, prime minister?’

    ”Boris Johnson promised the public that voting for Brexit and supporting the Tories in the last general election, in order to “get Brexit done”, would lead to a significant reduction in immigration. However, the facts tell a very different story. In the final set of immigration figures we’ll see before leaving the EU, the UK’s new net migration statistics show it has gone up to 313,000 over the past year to March. This is a rise of about one-third from 221,000 a year ago. The rise was fuelled by the 715,000 people who came to the UK over the previous 12 months. This is a four-year high of migration from non-EU countries, where the UK has tighter controls – controls that will soon be extended to EU citizens. Getting Brexit done has not seen immigration go down; it has driven it up.”..

    • Dr Jim says:

      Galloway’s game is relevance, notoriety, self promotion and subversion, it’s all about him

      Ring any bells? who else does this describe

      • jfngw says:

        He is a prime member of the political grifterati, he sits along side Farage and Johnson and many others. He has no political morals, whatever benefits them at any point in time is their personal crusade, but they can change position at the drop of a hat.

  40. Hamish100 says:

    It is time for Salmond to say to his supporters that Independence comes first and foremost.

  41. Alex Clark says:

    I had a little debate last night with a poster called Elmac who clearly has no time for Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP.

    The poster might also be known as Lesley McDonald as the posts from 12:23, 12:30, 01:26, 01:27 and 01:28am show, well either that or they both posted the same message at the same time coincidently.

    The name though, rung a bell, there was an SNP councillor for Larkhall named Lesley McDonald who was elected in 2007 and again in 2012 before defecting to Labour in May 2014 before the referendum due to differences with SNP colleagues, according to reports.

    The deputy leader of Larkhall council at the time, Labour’s Jackie Burns, said she had joined Labour because “She has been out of step with her former colleagues obsession with the referendum at the expense of proper representation”

    Of course, that the name rung a bell with me is of no consequence whatsoever, neither is the fact that Elmac posted on here to tell us that the SNP should do the same as Labour and vote for the Brexit bill. This is all purely coincidental.

    • Dr Jim says:

      There’s no debating with that particular persons views because those views are directly instructed lifted and repeated daily from the Bathistan Chronicle by the one who refers to himself as *we* and from that there shall be no deviation or foul insults and expulsion from the cell shall be the punishment

      They don’t seem to have mastered the art of the debate they claim to want, it’s either death to Nicola Sturgeon do you agree, and if you don’t it’s death to you, it’s not a political discussion site it’s a subversion indoctrination cell designed to attract the dispirit and angry then make use of them

    • Elmac says:

      Ha Ha! Total codswallop. Keep grasping at straws, keep the faith, and what ever you do keep your ears closed to anybody who does not agree with you. You seem to be good at that.

      By the way I have had plenty of time for the SNP. I first became a member in the very early 1970’s (local branch treasurer). I left on 31 January 2020, the Brexit deadline, when the penny dropped. I would return at the drop of a hat if they were to clean out their stable but I have no hope of that happening anytime soon. As matters stand I will vote for any credible alternative independence party and, if none are on the ballot, I will vote for an independent who will do his best for my constituency. I will not vote SNP under the current leadership and neither will my extended family, a substantial number of votes lost. Sad times, I never thought it would come to this.

      Don’t bother with a response. Much as I admire Paul and have read his blog for years, I doubt I will return. Your objective of deterring anyone with an alternative viewpoint has been achieved. Over and out.

      • Hamish100 says:

        Sorry to hear this. Unionists will be pleased.

      • Alex Clark says:

        “I left on 31 January 2020, the Brexit deadline, when the penny dropped.”

        Hahaha are the SNP to blame for Brexit too now in your mind 🙈

        It’s a shame right enough that you and your family won’t support the SNP though I’m sure they’ll manage fine with the majority of Scottish voters supporting them and support growing still.

        Sad times right enough that you allow your hatred of Nicola Sturgeon to blind you to the fact that she is the most popular leader in Scotland and is doing a great job of increasing support for Independence.


        • Alex Clark says:

          And this.

          Elmac says:
          28 December, 2020 at 1:23 am
          Well that was fun. There shall be no criticism of our beloved leader on WGD comments without stirring a hornets nest of abuse it seems. So much for polite reasoned argument. Still, it was an experience, and I will probably stir them up again before too long just for the hell of it.

          There are none so blind… seemed to get them going.

      • Alex Clark says:

        I’ve just read this from you on Wings. Pathetic so it is,

        Elmac says:
        28 December, 2020 at 12:03 am

        Just posted my contribution of 11.40 above on WGD. Awaiting the screams of indignation.

        What were you expecting, applause?

    • grizebard says:

      I’m just catching up after an unfortuate diversion, but I also found the slips by that poster yesterday very (inadvertently!) revealing, and I agree with your suspicions. (If she comes back – unlikely now? – we could always ask her, I suppose.) I don’t think such fake flags take their cues direct from Bath but it is instructive that this latest rash of “visitors” and the Bathites all seem to sing from the same songsheet.

      You have to ask yourself, if the Sage of Bath really does believe in independence, why does he and his faithful little band of acolytes (wouldn’t one just like to know their true allegiances!) sound just the same as the fake splitterists? A chorus of ducks all walking and quacking the same.

      Since there is no hope of any alteration in SNP leadership between now and May, and – given the totally cack-handed way the alt-indy project was (mis)handled – no hope whatever (at best) of any assistance from that direction during the election, you would expect that any serious supporter would take a step back and take a good look at the uncanny resemblance, lay aside any personal reservations, and help push for the win without which independence is merely a lost and faded dream.

      You would expect, wouldn’t you..?

  42. Alba woman says:

    I know it might seem a tad unfriendly nay even a tad undemocratic but why do the very decent and informed WGD folk not whizz on by those people who are obviously in the divide and rule game of the anti Indy lot.?

    • Dr Jim says:

      Paul can’t monitor the site in the normal way because of his health, I’m sure if he could he wouldn’t allow them too much leeway with this stuff and if these folk aren’t challenged occasionally they’d be here en masse doing the same things as they do elsewhere then the reasonable folk who are here would leave just as they left the elsewhere site because of this behaviour

      It’s important that readers who don’t post or contribute in the way some of us do have somewhere to go to read what reasonable folk think and to get the information that the likes of Petra and others post links to

      At one time folk used to be able to avoid the nasties on the other site but now that site is entirely the nasties by invitation

    • Statgeek says:

      I’m a tad concerned that any level of criticism is derided in such a fashion. I have managed to stay out of every political party in my life (my choice), and accept that party matters are party matters, but some seem to think the party is more than the objective.

      Sturgeon is a great politician, but I’m still waiting for that starting gun. Until I hear it, I’ll be as doubtful as I feel on any given day.

      It’s not healthy for people to label anyone not being devout to the SNP as akin to WoS or Unionists etc. I’ve had a knot in my stomach since September 2014, and it got twice as bad on the 24th of December.

      So I share a few thoughts, and read a few posts, but I accuse no one of anything, and I always (always!) challenge politicians when unconvinced, regardless of party. Although, it’s kinda pointless with some of the more obsequious Scottish tories. The Stockholm Syndrome has taken, and they are probably lost to begging for more gruel from Westminster.

      To all: If attempting to moderate in Paul’s absence by comments, I suggest moderation in tone also. It’s not helpful.

      • Statgeek, I’m way beyond ‘polite’.
        They are out to ‘finish the job’ which they started 300 years ago. Destroy Scotland.
        It is as serious as that.
        It’s not #politics’, some sort of parlour game that we can put right in five years time when their lies and threats are expsed yet again.
        We are fighting for our country’s very existence now.
        If we fail, although I cannot imagine this happening now, we will be a Northern Colony of England, militarily occupied, amd held in House Arrest, deprived from moving working and settling in 27 countries on our continent Europe.
        I am not prepared to stand for that.
        I am done being ‘moderate’.
        We are ‘fighting’ for our very lives.

      • Alex Clark says:

        Humour me and show me where “any level of criticism is derided in such a fashion” on this website. Those doing the deriding are less likely to be found here than they are on other sites.

        Elmac says:
        28 December, 2020 at 1:23 am
        Well that was fun. There shall be no criticism of our beloved leader on WGD comments without stirring a hornets nest of abuse it seems. So much for polite reasoned argument. Still, it was an experience, and I will probably stir them up again before too long just for the hell of it.

        There are none so blind… seemed to get them going.

        I don’t see any here who make it there purpose to visit other Independence supporting websites simply in order to wind the people who post there up. Can you see any reason for such behavior?

        By the way, did anybody else see a “hornets nest of abuse” as is claimed? Nah, me neither.

        • yesindyref2 says:

          I saw that. Elmac actually admits in that other place that he or she, Lesley or Les, is a troll in the actual old-fashioned definition:

          “A poster who posts with the sole purpose of eliciting a response”

          Which causes disruption, and since disruption is a waste of our time, on an actual Indy supporting blog, it’s a troll who is actively working against Independence – and promises to do so again. Meanwhile trying to curry favour with the inhabitants of that other place by saying “Oh look, aren’t I clever, and helping this blog wage war against the other one”. A person with low self-esteem is my guess. Sad.

        • Statgeek says:

          An example?

          Jack’s response to my post regarding Peter Grant in the previous thread.

          “Are you Iain Macwhirter? Go away.”

  43. Alba woman says:

    Dr. Jim Thank you for your decent response …we have so much to discuss and mull over…looks like the situation is ongoing and has to be dealt with as best we can.

    I am so grateful to Paul for his posts given his health circumstances.

  44. Arthur Thomson says:

    Your comment re Elmac is interesting Alex.

    For my part, I have observed that there have been British Labour types trolling Indy sites for years and that includes this site. Think back a wee bit to those who were ever so partial to projecting comrade Corbyn as a decent sort of chap. They haven’t got around to promoting comrade Starmer yet but give it time. What they have done is made comments designed to undermine confidence in the SNP and its leadership – and not just the FM. They get called out, go missing for a while and then come back to continue their work.

    I have no doubt that the success these people have had in influencing normal supporters of independence is actually zilch. They have no doubt had a little success with the cognitively challenged, however, which explains some of the donkeys we see coming on here promoting the destruction of the SNP because that’s how independence will be won.

    More importantly, from my point of view, is that they are an irritation. I am genuinely interested in the perspectives of genuine independence supporters and come on here to read them. I am totally disinterested in the opinions of Brits pretending to be Indy supporters – or even pretending to be human. If I want to know the details of the brain farts polluting other sites I will visit them ( not going to happen).

    My cryptic message to the dimwit Brits coming on here starts and ends with an F.


    • Alex Clark says:

      Would you expect any less?

      If I was a supporter of the Union and active in one of their parties, especially the Labour party in Scotland then I too would be posting anti SNP and Nicola Sturgeon bile on Independence blogs in order to undermine support for them and Independence.

      It’s a no brainer really that they would do that.

      • grizebard says:

        Yes, but only because they are totally bereft of anything positive to say about themselves and their own policies, and so instead they channel their excess of negativity where they hope (in vain) it will have most effect.

        And in so doing, they condemn themselves by their own actions. Unfit at any speed. Labour and Tory still in union, just two cheeks of the same a[…] part of the body which emits their effluent.

  45. yesindyref2 says:

    Just reading comments elsewhere, and a couple of things strike me.

    1). Perhaps the reason people here don’t criticise “Saint Nicla” for the way the MPs are voting on the deal is because we too realise it makes no odds, and the SNP will be criticised whichever of the three options they take. And the article itself NEVER MENTIONED THE VOTE.

    2). If the UK hadn’t left the EU and Scotland became Independent and wasn’t in the EU for some time, i.e., if Brexit hadn’t happened, then Scotland would be a “third country” to the EU – which would in that case INCLUDE the rUK. So the rUK, without special dispensation from the EU, would have had to charge tarrifs and all sorts of other things to trade with iScotland – the UK was not allowed then to have its own trade deals, or negotiate them as a general thing.

    So it’s not a “slightly good point”, it’s a totally valid point and Scotland does not need to get back into the EU for it to be valid. The (r)UK out of the EU and iScotland out of the EU mean we can make whatever deal we like with each other. Such ignorance is not bliss for a blogger.

    • jfngw says:

      As far as Westminster is concerned you are correct it will make no difference. But I think it is important the EU knows this deal is not to Scotland’s satisfaction and it is not a starting point for any future negotiations between Scotland and the EU.

      A few days ago, it may have been before the final deal was agreed, I thought abstention may have been the best bet but I have altered my opinion. Of course it is only my opinion, I’m no tactical genius or intellectual giant, I could be wrong.

    • Och, yesindyref2, I love your coy naivete:-

      The (r)UK out of the EU and iScotland out of the EU mean we can make whatever deal we like with each other. Such ignorance is not bliss for a blogger.”

      The notion that Scotland out of the EU and the Mighty England Empire as ‘third countries’ would sit down and negotiate any trade deal that we Scots would like stretches ‘ignorance’ not being bliss to the limit.

      Have you missed what’s been happening in the past 4 and a half years?

      They are out to crush Scotland, to grind our nation in to the dust.
      This is not hyperbole, barnstorming, or raging subversion.
      The Brit Nat Jocks freely admit it.
      No Indyref 2, ever.
      UKIM now.

      On Friday I am to be held under House Arrest by Priti Patel and an English Colonial Power.
      Macwhirter writes that I won’t even notice the difference.
      Speaks the man with cash to do what he likes, I fear.
      They are bought and sold for English gold.

      We cannot get whatever we like, despite 62% voting Remain.

      We are England’s pet colony, or so they think.
      David Duguid warns that the only ‘bumpy’ bit may be that we cannot determine the shape of pasta on the shelves, this Friday. This Friday, yesindyref2.

      We lost the vote in 2014.
      Only a material change, like Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will, would spark Indyref2…
      So there is no scenario where Scotland would be out of Europe, and England till in the EU, in the short term strategy of us vile separatists.
      You slip shows when you refer to ‘St Nicla’….

      We are on the brink because England has left the EU.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        Jack, lad, you don’t ‘arf misfire a lot and get the wrong end of the stick with your constant accusations. I expect your intentions are genuine, but in effect you’re like a Jumping Jack in a lift.

        A poster elsewhere who mentioned “St Nicla” posted this: “WGD has written, that its a great deal, because it means that when Scotland is Indy, and part of the EU, England cannot threaten to not trade with us. Which is a good point” and another poster posted this reply: “It’s a slightly good point, but we still need to (a) become independent, and (b) get back into the EU.“. Hence my comment.

        Maybe someone could gently explain the meaning of “Just reading comments elsewhere” to you!

        fx: *sighs* with mild exasperation

      • yesindyref2 says:

        Just noticed this from Jack:

        The notion that Scotland out of the EU and the Mighty England Empire as ‘third countries

        FFS read what I actually wrote in the first paragraph of point 2.. It was about Scotland out of the EU (a third country to the EU), and the rest of the UK IN THE FECKING EU (NOT a third country).

        Jumpin’ Jack Flash it’s a gas gas gas.

        I don’t know why I fucking bother.

        • You bother, because you care, indyref2.

          I am not ‘misreading’ your comments, far from it.

          Why expend energy is setting out a hypothesis that doesn’t exist?
          Scotland out of the EU and Mighty England in?

          And the tired old trope about Scotland depending on England for trade?
          England will trade with Scotland regardless, simply because they have to.
          They are dependent on our food fish energy and so on.

          When Scotland is independent, and much more adroitly than you surmise, the 28th member of the EU, WDG makes the valid point that England will trade with Scotland as part of the EU, and ‘live with it’.
          Your argument that ‘Wee Scotland’ will stand alone for an indeterminate time, and face up to 56 million strong England, and use Coolport, Faslane, Edinburgh Castle, Lossiemouth, and the 18% Grouse Moors taken by slaughter by the Jock Lairds all those years ago, as bargaining chips, is nonsense.

          Day One, send England’s navy, army, and air force packing.
          England will be desperate for trade deals anywhere they can get them.

          Independent Scotland will offer England the same ‘deal’ which the EU offered, in anticipation of our Free Nation having closer ties with Europe than with the English Empire from here on in.

          On the ‘St Nikla’ comment; can you imagine a Brit Nat posting a pro Union tweet, and referring to Johnson as ‘The Fat Owl of Westminster’?
          Yet you refer to her as ‘St Nicla’, embedding the this nasty wee insult on a pro independence site.
          Putting the insult in parenthesis makes no difference.

          I may at times use a scattergun in a lift, yesforindy2, and often miss the mark.
          I am human.
          But I am way past arguing pointless hypotheses, and what if England ….’punishes’ us?
          There is more fresh water in Loch Ness than there is in the whole of England.

          Scotland is a fabulously resource wealthy country with only 5.4 million mouths to feed.

          England has 56 million hungry mouths to feed and only 60% produced in England’s Green and Pleasant Land.

          WE will not be adopting a ‘begging bowl’ gambit when dealing with England, come independence.

          We are in the cat bird’s seat now.

          I am truly sorry if I upset or insulted you.

          I read your submissions avidly, indyref2.

          I am in no mood for too wee too por too stupid tosh.

          O. me miserum, non sum dignus,

          Jumpin’ Jack Flash

    • grizebard says:

      The two countries would indeed be free to do a deal, but that’s assuming goodwill on both sides. Which in the event may actually (need to) exist, but you can just hear BT2 in the meantime sharpening its knives on the threat that if Scotland dares to vote for independence, as its major trading partner, palsy olde England will respond with punitive tariffs instead. (Jock puppets threatening the rest of us on behalf of another country – a shameful thing. All the while happily omitting that this kind of threat works both ways, and we here have the net advantage, but the scare tactic will still work with some.)

      Then just look at Ireland (in the EU), its whole trading relationships post-Brexit are about to swing, however slowly, substantially and irrevocably away from Blighty. In or out of the EU, I suspect we will be safer if we plan to do the same.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        Yes, and currently goodwill is almost completely absent.

        We do have some leverage though – Faslane and Coulport for instance, plus they export more in total to us than we do to them (apparently). £64 billion imports to Scotland from the rUK, £52 billion exports to the rUK in 2018.

        I think we might be looking at the end of BoJo, Gove and others though, with this Brexit deal and our substantial majority in Indy Ref 2 – the end of the Precious Union!

  46. Alex Clark says:

    Not all in Labour believe that they should support the Tories Brexit deal.

    Keir Starmer is facing a high-profile rebellion against Labour’s Brexit position on the eve of the vote in parliament, as prominent MPs including John McDonnell and Clive Lewis accused him of “falling into the trap of rallying around this rotten deal”.

    Labour is likely to contain a major rebellion of frontbench MPs but an increasing number of prominent supporters are urging Starmer to change course. Backbenchers have also raised concerns on private WhatsApp groups that Labour’s endorsement for the deal has been given without the legislation being published.

  47. danhuil says:

    Vote No or abstain, I’m not bothered which. I’d much rather the SNP MPs just didn’t turn up and stayed away, permanently. I suppose they could do that after voting No or abstaining…

    I’m just so pisht aff with the SNP going along with these britnat Westminster games. Because of the numbers the SNP and Scotland will never win in britnat Westminster; I know that, you know that, the people of Scotland know that, so why in the name of wee man does the SNP continue to play a part in this unfunny pantomime?!

    Is it because they’re feart of the anti-Scottish media? That media will never, ever, take Scotland’s and the SNP’s side so there’s no point in being feart of the media maggots.

    Is it because the MPs are feart of losing their jobs? It better bloody not be! Many people in Scotland are willing to make sacrifices to further the cause of Scotland’s independence; SNP politicians must lead by, not just follow, that example.

    For god’s sake SNP! No more talking! Do something!

    • Alex Clark says:

      There will be a time and a place for withdrawing our MP’s from Westminster for maximum effect.

      That is one of the weapons in the SNP arsenal, is that time now or is that a tactic best employed at some time in the future? Maybe on refusal of a Section 30 order after a large SNP majority in 2020 electing them on an Independence ticket?

      I don’t know either but watch this space as I suspect it will happen at some point.

    • A Bruce says:

      I’m with you Dan. We voted NO to Brexshit. Brexshit belongs to the Red and Blue Tories. Let them own it. Our MP’s should grow a pair and walk out. It’s the only one of the 4 options that makes sense. Grab the bloody mace on the way out.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Frustration is very much Whitehall’s objective, which is why they have invested so heavily in bombarding Scots with negativity, FM is MI5 stooge, collapsing health and education, a wheen of alternatives to SNP, dragging out Brexit as long as possible, Vow2, BBC Scotland’s boundless propaganda, the question you rightly pose is how long SNP play along with this?

      Constantly forgotten is that public support for Indy was for years just under the majority needed to win, and I’m dubious campaigning alone would have tipped the balance in our favour until Brexit had begun to bite.
      Yet here’s the irony, Covid – The emergency powers devolved to Holyrood allowed SG to show what they were made of, and they shone. THIS more than anything finally boosted support for Indy over the magic 50%.
      2020 became the turning point for Indy we have been waiting for, and still with the “sunny uplands” of Brexit (looming like a storm off the coast) to take effect.

      The next important step is translating that Indy support into a majority democratic expression of political will of Scots the rest of the world would accept – That’s why London etc are so terrified of the Holyrood elections in 2021, they expect a rout or a plebiscite election, which is why they and their agents are so busy trying to subvert it.
      Our time is coming very soon indeed, we only need hold our nerve….

    • Capella says:

      It is a very important platform for the SNP. Everything is recorded in Hansard and most of it is broadcast to those who are interested, at home and abroad. Why boycott such a useful resource?

      Sinn Fein have boycotted Westminster for a hundred years but NI is still in the Union, though now slipping away on the slippery slope of the GFA + BREXIT.

  48. grizebard says:

    While personally I’m perfectly cool with a nascent Scotland finding it optimally convenient to join EFTA as a quick route back into the international community if that is subsequently judged to be necessary, we must be cautious of how this is handled politically between now and into the leadup to the (hoped-for) referendum.

    Firstly, the main alteration regarding indy in the views of a crucial segment of the voting population is our abrupt unwished-for tearing-out of the EU (not something else). This is the established view of the majority of the people of Scotland, even more so than the votes cast back in 2016. Not any inferior substitute which gives us no say at the top table where it matters, and whose offer to us will be (and remain) relatively unclear. People are looking for the most certain and trusted way forward, not another form of uncertainty and another source of argument.

    (It seems rather ironic, BTW, if you just step back a moment from the argument and take a good look, that the case for EFTA should depend in any way on its supposed compatibility with rUK requirements and dependencies. This is the very kind of influence and control from which we’re supposed to be escaping!)

    The last thing we want approaching an independence referendum is an entirely unnecessary diversion into what kind of international alignment we want post-indy before we’re in any position to actually choose. We’ve managed to suppress or dispose of at least some of the BritNat diversionary issues of last time, and the last thing we need now is to provide them with a brand-new one.

    There are some subtle hardline anti-EU proponents who seem to pop-up every time independence moves up the agenda (hi there, Derrick – escaped Yell and now snuggling among the alt-indy splitterists?) and whatever their gradualist rhetoric, the aim is to never join the EU for some unknown doctrinaire reason or another. Tell that to the population at large when a crucial vote on indy is pending! You might also wonder at the “convenient” appearance of another variety of insidious splitterist at just the right-wrong time.

    • Well said, grizebard.
      No more navel gazing.
      The campaign begins on Friday, when England leaves Europe.

      Indyref2 is sparked to life because England is out of Europe.

      Independence first and foremost.

      • P Harvey says:

        Independence first and foremost

        The one and only goal

      • What odds that the BBC shows ‘The Great Escape’ on Thursday night, and BBC2 weigh in with ‘The Colditz Story’, and .Mrs Miniver’?

        England has become a very dangerous rogue state now.
        Just think what Goebbels could have achieved with TV and the internet.

        This morning I caught the male BBC News anchor observing:- As well as the good news about Brexit and the Oxford vaccine, President in waiting Joe Biden…’

        Brexit is good news, Brexit is good news Brexit is good are sleepy, so sleepy ,so sleepy.
        No sign of Leonard, Rennie, Baroness Rape Clause or the Linesman. I wonder why?

        • Legerwood says:

          It is not just WWII films shown on BBC but ‘the War’ permeates much of their output one way or another. Perhaps the oddest example is the Antiques Roadshow.

          Over the last few years it has become more and more noticeable that just about every episode contains some WWII memorabilia of some description with an accompanying hushed and sombre description by the expert valuing it.

          On Sunday the show was a compilation of clips from past shows. The first 6 or so clips featured items related one way or another to WWII.

          I know things from that time qualify as antiques and/or collectibles but really on just about every episode?

          • Not a show I watch, Legerwood, but I have no doubt that ‘antiques’ from WWI and WWII will feature regularly.

            The BBC has form.

            Spitfires, Cockleshell Heroes, the Dambusters…and a whole slew of Black and White war movies are annual fare…even 75 years after the end of the War in Europe.

            Poor old Anton Diffring played the nasty German Officer in countless films..Albert RN The Colditz Story, and one of this week’s offerings The Heroes of Telemark.

            I seem to recall that he was in fact Jewish.

            I must Google his CV later..

            I’d imagine that The Antiques Road Show’s target audience is viewers aged over 65, like me, therefore war bric-a-brac would be a regular feature.

            There is no doubt at all that BBC is ‘doing its bit’ to repel Johnny Foreigner nevertheless with endless British is Bulldog Best junk.

  49. Dr Jim says:

    It’s perfectly understandable that folk who try to keep up with events and politics around everything that’s going on can get frustrated at times but what should also be remembered is that every one of us here on this blog right now don’t represent the run of the mill average voter who doesn’t keep up with politics in the same way we all try to do, so when we hear Nicola Sturgeon for example repeating herself time and time again she’s not doing it for our benefit it’s for the folk who only pay attention every now and again, to us who are listening all the time we’re thinking out loud “c’mon get on with it” but she’s thinking about the folk who are only hearing it for the first time and they’re the majority not us

    We are the geeks who study the newspapers, we are the geeks who note every word of the opposition and are able to repeat it back, we are the geeks who know which *journalists* are telling the truth and which ones are lying, the same as the politicians who lie and which parties they belong to, Mr and Mrs Joe Public don’t really have much of a clue about all this stuff and most of the time they don’t really care until it’s time to vote and by that time the FM has said the same stuff over and over a hundred times in the hope that most of the people have heard most of the stuff she says maybe once or twice

    The only people trying to convince anybody of the bad stuff we don’t need are the internet warriors whose mission is to convert and divert us in the hope we do the same to the public by simple multiplication, so far those people have failed in a big way, but they have had some success and that spurs them on to do more, we just mustn’t allow them to use personality and character assassination of any one person to divert us from the single purpose, Independence

    The desperation of these folk has become more than obvious, who ever heard of “don’t vote for somebody in order to get what you want” “Harrumph that’ll show em” well no what they’re asking is ludicrous and they know it, ” vote for someone who can never get you anything and they’ll get you Independence” that’s just plain insulting folk’s intelligence and the major clown behind it is laughing his head off at folk falling for such crap

    There once was a Twitter account now removed from the Internet for hate speech by the author and one day the author of that Twitter account posted a picture of his dental receipt and written there was the question of what was the authors employment and the answer given was *subversive*
    is that what’s normally given as a persons employment, how many of us here or people we know who would put *subversive* as their employment

    Our country is bigger than us and it’s bigger than its enemies and if we stand together we win our whole country for ourselves, if we allow the trolls and enemies of our country to prevail we lose our country and ourselves, I say to all of those people who would rob us by their lies “my kilt’s lifted and there’s my Arse now get tae and do one”

    • Precisely, Dr Jim.
      The site to which you refer reproduces reams of Brit Nat junk, to argue that Surgeon and the Bad Bad SNP are fools and gravy trainers.
      The argument at the moment is that when the SNP vote No to Boris Johnson’s Deal, they are by default voting for No Deal because that is the only other option on the table.

      It is argued that we should just accept the inevitable, and vote to leave the EU, regardless…
      This is the kernal of the Independence argument.
      There are more English people than us, so ‘live with it’?

      Let me make my view very plain. I don’t give a damn what crap deal or No Deal which England carves out on trading with the EU.
      The SNP will vote No on Thursday, because that’s what 62% of Scotland voted for.
      To Remain in the EU.

      Ergo it would be a betrayal for the SNP to vote for any Brexit deal, never mind this mish mash.

      We are going for full blooded Independence now.

      While still part of the WM system, there can only be one option; vote down this deal
      The faux corollary is not that the SNP or Scotland would prefer No Deal.
      The warped logic of this blogger is alarming to say the least.

      WE see our future as an independent nation.

      What England does is of no importance to me.

      If the SNP abstained, or voted for this Deal, they would not be serving the needs and wishes of the constituents whom they represent.

      Independence first and foremost.
      I am ‘way past caring or worrying about England, or Bath even.

      The above written in a stream of consciousness rant.

      To summarise, I no longer take into account England and its mass suicide when we fight for our Freedom.

      • J Galt says:

        A small point of fact – this vote is not about leaving the EU or not – that horse has bolted, we left on the 31st January 2020.

        The vote is about whether to accept Johnson’s “Deal” or accept “No Deal” – no other possibility is available in the 48 hours or so left.

        Which of these 2 possible outcomes is best for the people of Scotland should be the only consideration for the SNP members at Westminster.

        • Galtson’s Choice?

          Give us peace, JG.

        • Capella says:

          I don’t agree J Galt. The SNP must vote NO as they have been mandated by the Scottish voters. What Boris Johnston chooses to do next is his affair. He could cancel BREXIT because Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

          Voting NO to this hard BREXIT deal is not the same as voting for NO DEAL, though the Tories are certainly spinning that as hard as they can.

          • Statgeek says:

            I wasn’t really bothered about eh SNP’s vote, given the arithmetic, until I saw that all the sitting parties of NI are voting No. It wouldn’t be a bad thing for all the non-Tory votes in Scotland and NI to be similarly aligned.

        • weegingerdug says:

          No, they can protest about the fact that the Conservatives have reduced Scotland’s options to a choice between disaster and catastrophe.

        • Bob Lamont says:

          “A small point of fact” – “no other possibility is available in the 48 hours or so left” – INCORRECT.
          Perhaps you might learn from this thread I was previously prompted to look up

          As the the Brexit Deal itself, from a man whose politics I despise – Lord Heseltine, European Movement President, said: “We must welcome the news that Brexit does not end in the chaos of no deal with the sense of relief of a condemned man informed that his execution has been commuted to a life sentence”

          • J Galt says:

            Thank you for engaging the point.

            If we have learned anything over the last 9 months, it is that, when push comes to shove, under the UK’s fairly loose constitutional arrangements, the “Executive” can ride roughshod over the so-called rights and prerogatives of parliament.

            If the vote depended on SNP votes there is no way they would be voting against the deal.

            • Bob Lamont says:

              You clearly ignored reading the link posted, your “If the vote depended on SNP votes there is no way they would be voting against the deal” makes that abundantly clear.
              Your consequent reference to “If the vote depended on SNP votes there is no way they would be voting against the deal” reveals all. Galty as charged

        • wm says:

          None of these two outcomes is best for the people of Scotland, having considered this, the SNP voting against is the correct one. As for that other place and the man from Bath, I made my mind up about him being an imposter, the last time I visited his blog about 15 months ago.

  50. Dr Jim says:

    That’s it Jack If the SNP vote for a deal the lunatics would accuse them of ditching their principles and their instruction from us the people when we said loudly and clearly “Scotland wants no part of Brexit” The Taliban leader would’ve loved an abstain vote and remember he’s the one who was screeching that the SNP should be doing deals with the Tories not so long ago

    There are some on that site who have been taken in by his crap no doubt about it but many of them have always been SNP Nicola Sturgeon haters from way back

  51. yesindyref2 says:

    With the apparent inability of one particular poster to realise when I’m quoting others (on Wings in this case) rather than saying something myself, and his constant misrepresentation of what I say and believe in, subsequent attacks and insults for things I didn’t say and don’t think, not just on this article but on others as well, I can’t post effectively on WGD any more, as it destroys the meaning and use of anything I post. Plus it pisses me off big time. And the sad thing is nobody else has stepped in and said “Hold on a wee cotton-picking minute here, that’s not what YIR2 said at all”.

    So congratulations that rabid rat on a string, you’ve succeeded in driving me off WGD, something which around 10,000 Unionist posters have failed to do on any of a good few MSM forums over the years with my monikers. I did pack in here for a bit but decided to give it one last – failed – try.

    Life’s too short. So live long and prosper!

    • Eilidh says:

      I am sorry to see you go but some people interpret what you post in different ways. I myself find a lot of you what you post interesting although to be honest I would rather no one posts quotes or even mentions the blogger who shall not be named or his acolytes (you know who I mean) as it only empowers them. Hopefully you will feel like coming back here eventually

    • grizebard says:

      Please don’t huff off. Among your other contributions, personally I have enjoyed your occasional caricatures, and (I hope) responded in kind. We need a diversity of views, since nobody has a monopoly of good sense. And sometimes that results in robust debate. But it’s worth keepng in mind that it’s among friends.

    • Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 – I think you’re reading too much into a fairly innocuous mistake.

      When I suggested having a national public broadcasting service based in Edinburgh – our capital city – to cover major political events, you reacted as if I had said that Weegies have a nasty accent and drink Irn Bru and I would somehow take facilities away from Glasgow and that Edinburgh isn’t everything.

      None of which I’d said or implied.

      We would all benefit from broadcasting and film facilities being multiplied all over Scotland. We suffer from a complete blackout of cultural and media product which no other country in the world would tolerate.

      So I’m wondering if the stress of waiting is getting to you? Keep calm and carry on is the best plan IMO.

    • weegingerdug says:

      I would just like to say that at the moment the post-stroke fatigue I am suffering plus my difficulties in typing mean that I am not able to moderate the comments as effectively as I might like to. So I would just like to make a plea to everyone to give one another the benefit of any doubt. Not to respond with anger, and to keep things civil. Thank you all for your understanding and cooperation.

    • Petra says:

      C’mon yesindyref2 one particular poster has annoyed you! Take a break and come back. For one, we’ll benefit from your ”military” expertise on here in the very near future 😀. At the end of the day no matter who says what we’re all on the same side here. All battling to free our beloved Scotland.

      • yesindyref2 says:

        Thanks Petra, but it’s about the 5th thread the sneaky illiterate moronic imbecile launched an unprovoked attack on me with his Rape clause Ruth accusations or similar, I didn’t initiate one single one of them, nor even any exchange with him at all.

        Yet it’s me gets tellt to “stay civil” when I can’t ignore it, and reply to his nonsensical chin-dribbling stomachic bile. He’s had plenty of time to admit he got it wrong and apologise, but has no integrity. Well, I never did believe the nonsense about “turn the other cheek” and life really is too short to put up with it. Er hat eine Schraube lockern.

        I’m out for good.

        • grizebard says:

          Nobody’s putting you in the wrong, so why worry? If one individual doesn’t get where you’re at, that’s their problem, not yours. You don’t need absolutely everyone’s validation when you post something, so why let the appreciation of the rest of us be cast aside because you’ve taken heavy umbrage with one dissident?

          Please, take a few deep breaths, relax some, and don’t let things get way out of proportion. We really don’t want you to go, OK…?

    • Statgeek says:

      Yup, I feel you. I stopped regularly reading WoS sometime soon after his Twitter ban, as his tone and style was already grating on my nerves, and it got worse quickly with his content focus. Funnily enough, some of the comments here (as opposed to the blogger or the commenters themselves) are having a similar effect.

      I tune in less, tune out more. Not watched the Beeb since 2017, and that was on the wane after 2014. Was never a fan of political party events anyway, and Brexit has put the tin lid on it.

  52. Golfnut says:

    For those who haven’t quite got their heads round the deal/ no deal nonsense, or indeed what parliament will actually be voting for. Read the whole thread.

    • Alex Clark says:

      Thanks for that, he explains the facts very clearly indeed. Particularly this point.

      Under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act Parliament can delay ratification. But it can’t block it. In addition, ministers can get round the 21 day rule by explaining why the circumstances make it exceptional. Which would obviously apply in this case


      Those that say the SNP are voting for “No deal” by refusing to support Johnson and the Tories in voting for his deal are just stirring the porridge in another lousy attempt at Bad SNP.

    • Thanks for this, Golfnut.

  53. Dr Jim says:

    Apparently there are political things happening in *the capital* today, and we’ve had the weather from *the capital* and how lockdown looks in *the capital* plus some interviews of people in *the capital* and an inside look at a hospital in *the capital*

    So all of you folks in Edinburgh Cardiff and Belfast, that’s you telt

  54. Ken2 says:

    If they can do it for NI they can do it with Scotland.

    Just compromise. Not all the lies. Remember the lying Vow. All the hype but nothing. If people want Independence they have to vote for it.

    If Scotland gets better off so does the rest of Britain.

    The Tories want to drag everyone down with them. They are complete imbeciles.

    • grizebard says:

      Yes, you have to wonder why fundamentally they wouldn’t do it. It’s as if they don’t really care about losing the rest of Ireland, but Scotland is their preciousss. (I wonder if what they fear most is a very effective competitor right on their doorstep. Like BritSteel deliberately trashed Gartcosh rather than sell it on as a going concern.)

      If this Great Union of theirs was so all-powerful, what would they have to lose? It would signify that it was adaptable and flexible to circumstances. Why would we want to leave if we had a vital stake in the deal? That’s a point that I have felt strongly about for ages, it’s the lack of faith in their own project that is the BritNats’ fundamental weakness and undoing. They cling desperately to a fossilised ruin of their own making. It’s like the story of the American colonies all over again.

      • Oh yes grizebard I agree, the U.K. refer to the USA as a great and trusted friend the talk of a special relationship
        It’s all nonsense

        Forty years after American independence the U.K. attacked the USA again because it didn’t like the USA selling stuff to France and the rest of Europe

        Trusted friend. ?
        Special relationship ?

        Back then you still had the so called “ loyalists” those snivelling sneaky gits who fought against and killed their next door neighbours to be on the side of the U.K. and against their own country

        Back then they were called tories as well or kings men we now have them as britnats here in Scotland

  55. Hamish100 says:

    I see the son of Mundell got found out by sending letters to potential postal voters in his area. The electors advised to send their votes to the tories who will make sure they are delivered to the electoral officer.
    Unfortunately for Mundell this is against electoral rules. Surely this deserves a full inquiry. Is this practice endemic with the tories?

  56. Legerwood says:

    When the SNP MPs vote NO to this deal they are in fact saying that the deal is not good enough for Scotland.

    They are not in any way shape of form saying NoDeal is preferable. The fact that a UK Gov defeat tomorrow would result in No Deal is down to UK Gov incompetence at every level.

    Any attempt by anyone to spin a No vote by the SNP into ‘they are voting for No Deal’ should be nipped firmly in the bid. That No Deal is the alternative to this should be laid firmly at the door of the UK Gov no one else.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      There was an excellent thread elsewhere explaining that the parliamentary position is clear, it doesn’t matter at all how many vote against it the majority Tories carry it, even were they to rebel it sits until it is passed. Period.
      This is clearly a political game orchestrated between the dumbest 6 Tory MPs and the solitary Labour impersonator in Scotland…
      I think it was over on today’s postings from Ann on Indyref2, but may be mistaken…

    • Capella says:

      Agreed – as Golfnut’s link to Luke Cooper’s thread confirms. I said above that the Tories were spinning this “SNP are voting for No Deal” meme but. as Luke Cooper says, the Labour Party are also at it. So it is in fact a Unionist ploy.

      • Bob Lamont says:

        Thanks had just gone to look for it 🤣

      • Golfnut says:

        It’s a distraction Capella, there is no deal on the table only an MOI, the bill which goes before parliament will probably be centred on executive power and control with little input or scrutiny from Parliament. That’s why Starmer agreed even before seeing the ‘ deal ‘ to support the ‘ Bill ‘. The SNP are not really voting either for or against the deal, they’re voting against the Bill.

    • jfngw says:

      I see this vote as important for the future integrity of the ScotGov in any post independence negotiation with the EU. How can you not oppose it now but then say you reject these terms when presented by the EU with them in the future, it would make us look like chancers. We need to look beyond Wednesday’s vote, in itself it is pointless whilst still in the UK, but we need to consider the long term.

      As for ‘it will end up as a media onslaught’, what different will that make, it is the normal state of affairs. No matter how they vote it will be used against them. And if the deal turns actually worse than expected then the story will be the SNP did not oppose it.

  57. Petra says:

    Well so far it would seem that the Libdems, DUP, SDLP and Alliance politicians (plus some Labour and Tory politicians) will be voting against the deal (Bill), so it’s not just the SNP at all as some would like us to believe. Caroline Lucas, as one example, should have a word in the buffoon from Bath’s ear about acquiescing with the enemy of the Scots. Acquiesce = to assent tacitly, submit or comply silently or without protest.

    ‘Why I’m (Caroline Lucas) voting against the Brexit deal with the EU.’

    ”As a former senior civil servant in the Department of Trade memorably warned, we have given up a three-course meal and what we’ve got in exchange is a packet of crisps.”…

    ..”And while I understand why some would prefer to abstain, abstention is still acquiescence. It is standing aside and allowing something to be passed into law which is plainly wrong for our country. And there are some things so serious and so damaging to which we should not acquiesce.”..

    ..”This government will win in the division lobbies and this deal will pass. My vote will make no difference to that. But voting against it is how we keep alive the belief in something better, for our economy, our environment, and for Europe too. It’s how we register our support for a world that recognises that only by pooling our sovereignty with those who share our values can we tackle the daunting challenges that face us all.”


    ‘Starmer faces high-profile Labour rebellion before Brexit deal vote.’

    ”It states: “The deal is a substantial downgrade of the UK’s relationship with the EU, and is designed to open the door to rampant economic deregulation – a loss of rights and protections for workers, the environment, food standards and many other areas of life. Future trade deals could now entrench the privatisation of the NHS and other public services. We are witnessing an act of vandalism against our livelihoods, our rights and our horizons. While admitting it was a “foregone conclusion” the deal would pass parliament as MPs are recalled from their Christmas break on Wednesday, the statement added: “This deal will not ‘get Brexit done’: negotiations over trade and regulatory frameworks will go on and on for years to come.”..

  58. Petra says:

    Aye right, we’ll listen to you (Sir) John. Take your advice 😂😂

    ‘John Curtice: SNP MPs could ‘gum up’ Westminster until Tories agree to indyref2.’

    ”The SNP could hold Westminster to ransom until it gets indyref2, John Curtice has suggested. The Strathclyde university academic predicted that the next General Election in 2024 would deliver a hung parliament, giving Nicola Sturgeon’s party significant influence.”..


    ‘Der Spiegel writer takes aim at UK Government ‘clowns’ in scathing column.’

    ..”In Europe, however, people are moving on. “So long, and thanks for all the fish,” reads the cheeky front-page of centre-right German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.”..

    ,,“The big British media have made themselves accomplices with their »reporting« and constantly trampled on fairness and facts, what a f *** ing disgrace.”..

  59. Petra says:

    ‘Brexit: Scotland is the key to what happens with Northern Ireland.’

    ..”That “creative compromise” may lie with Scotland. An independent Scotland welcomed into the EU with open arms would leave England and Wales reminiscent of a headless chicken, cut off from their nearest neighbours, isolated and alone. It would also leave Northern Ireland out on a limb more susceptible than ever to increasing pressure for a move towards a shared or united Ireland. If that were the case, the possibility of the three nations that support EU membership coming together to form an arrangement between Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland could be a worthy alternative.”..


    ”Sammy Wilson and others of the DUP have discovered that Boris Johnson is a lying cheating two-faced scumbag. Had they spoken to any one of the several woman Johnson cheated on and committed adultery with they could have got there quicker.”

  60. LOCH LOMOND flamingo theme park was rejected but guess what ?

    ITS BACK !!

    Those twisters Scottish Enterprise are at it again ready to allow AND HELP the building of a theme park on one of the most valuable and famous green wilderness sites in the whole of Scotland

    Inform everyone you know
    We must stop this again

    • Petra says:

      FGS! Here we go again. Looks as though we’ll have to contact Fiona Hyslop, EN MASSE.

      “The developer has consistently acted in bad faith and clearly has no interest in what the local community actually wants or needs. Scottish Enterprise owns this land and as a public body they are directly accountable to the Scottish Government through the Economy Secretary Fiona Hyslop. She must step in immediately to prevent this exclusive agreement from being renewed.”

    • J Galt says:

      With the greatest of respect there’s no theme park as far as I can see.

      It looks to me to be a good use of land earmarked by the local authority for development that once housed railway sidings and really cannot honestly be described as “wilderness”, my only concern would be that the developer should carry the risk rather than the public purse.

      Creating jobs in an area of high unemployment and deprivation – what fiends!

      Why not just hand out one-way tickets out of Scotland to our youth as they leave school?

      • Don’t give us that nonsense J Galt.
        This is a theme park development at Loch Lomond and should be rejected at all costs
        People like you always go on about jobs for the youth and school leavers when defending stuff like this and there is never ever ever jobs for the youth or for school leavers in stuff like this.

        We want ambition in our youth and our school leavers not cheap paying jobs that lead nowhere or as this case would be , no jobs delivered as promised.

        A theme park should not get anywhere near Loch Lomond

    • Eilidh says:

      What is built on that land is nothing to do with Scottish Enterprise. They committed to sell the land to that company nothing else. What gets permission to be built there has to be agreed by the National Park authority. They will never agree to a theme park same as they didn’t the last time and I would again sign a petition against such a plan just as I did re the previous proposal

      • J Galt says:

        And as there is no proposal for a Theme Park you have nothing to worry about – I would respectfully urge you and others to have a look at what is actually proposed for this ex-industrial (railway) site.

        • Eilidh says:

          I have read it and know there does not appear to be a theme park involved in proposals this time. My comment was more re Terrence Callachans post re another proposal for theme park being built there I should have made that clearer. It may be the new proposals are more acceptable this time. What annoyed me was blaming Scottish Enterprise for what might be built there. That as I said is not their decision. I know a few people who work for Scottish Enterprise including senior staff and they all work bloody hard to bring jobs to Scotland and at least one of them is an Snp voter

  61. Petra says:

    Don’t let the lying Scottish Tories get away with this, folks. And check out the embedded links / videos.

    ‘The Tory litany of broken Brexit promises.’


    ”HMRC confirms that travellers from GB will need to declare cash of 10,000 euro or more when entering NI from 1 January. Declarations can be made online up to 72 hours in advance. Note: this also covers cheques & bankers’ drafts so it’s not just ‘lol who carries 10k in notes???’ Could be legit proceeds of property or equipment sale.”

  62. Petra says:

    Check out Professor John Robertson’s site.


    And Ann’s latest links on the indyref2 site.

  63. jfngw says:

    Looks like Abba fan Jackson ‘Monet, Monet, Monet’ Carlaw has been smoking some Gove dung.

    ‘Sturgeon & the SNP are on the ropes and they know it. Boris’ deal is their worst nightmare.’

    • Dr Jim says:

      Says the man who’s predicted to lose his seat in May

    • grizebard says:

      Har, har, har. Priceless! The Goebbels Big Lie writ small, nay miniscule.

      You just wish these dweebs really believe this stuff, so that the coming plunge in May will be a real shocker for them.

  64. Petra says:

    Horrendous 🙄. FGS keep the border closed, Nicola.

    ‘We’re running out of oxygen’: Doctor makes emotional plea as NHS on brink of COVID crisis.’

    • Dr Jim says:

      It’s a funny story this because Jason Leitch has already said this is not accurate but the only reference to him the BBC made was that Scotlands clinical director *denied* the reports

      No interview with Jason Leitch Gregor Smith or Nicola Steedman or Linda Bauld or Devi Sridhar, the actual experts in charge when in previous weeks the BBC couldn’t get enough of those experts yet now they interview doctors nobody ever heard of and with respect are in charge of nothing

      Is this the media interviewing their own nominated better together experts again to undermine like they do with oil and the economy with Sir Ian Wood or Hugh Pennington, it’s a problem because we know the media do this and we can’t trust them over Covid any more than any other subject

      No regular Covid briefings from the people who count gives the media the opportunity to do their thing and confuse, you’d think surely not but then again they’ve done it before

      • Stephen McKenzie says:

        The BBC UK Network only mentioned Jason Leitch’s comments at the very end of their “close to being overwhelmed” on the lunchtime news.

        Jason Leitch’s comments were then not included in any of the earlier or remaining “close to be overwhelmed” reports by the BBC UK Network throughout the day.

        Taken from Talking up Scotland, one of the Doctors is in the BBC video clip turns out to be the trade union leader of the BMA in Scotland.

        I noticed that BBC Scotland on Monday 28th December, did not go near the “close to being overwhelmed” story.

        So I assume the “”close to being overwhelmed”” was for BBC UK Network consumption only. E.g. we are all doing as badly as each other.

        In my humble opinion..

    • Oxygen plea from doctor …in England

      • Hetty says:

        Yep, that was reported by the medics on twitter, London and SE England are in dire straits, it’s horrendous. The Tories are doing Brexit, far too budy to be bothered about the English NHS, and when it goes down the pan, more privatisation. Terrifying.

    • jfngw says:

      Media being less than transparent with the figures (BBC in particular). It’s pretty obvious there has been a reduction in lab processing over the holiday and possibly people delaying their test as they wanted to celebrate xmas. I would expect a peak of cases and deaths being recorded in the next few days as the system catches up. Why else would the cases in Scotland more than double in a single day after falling each day in the preceding week. Expect the same next week after the new year break.

      Ignore the BBC in Scotland as they are no better than the Sun and need to make the other countries of the UK seem as bad as England. They don’t lie directly, it’s all done by inference.

      • jfngw…I totally agree , there are so many people who ignore advice , many who mixed with other households over Christmas and will have spread covid far and wide we are about to see the expected rise in infection rates

  65. NHS close to being overwhelmed in England
    NOT in Scotland

    • grizebard says:

      Yes, this “England-as-UK” strikes again. The sooner we get a new Covid briefing here the better.

      Medics here though have also good reason to be apprehensive about what’s coming, since on newly-released figures, after a few days of decline, hospital numbers here have taken a steep surge up in the last few days. We’re about now where we were at the end of November (on the way down) and at the end of October (on the way up).

      The hard Boxing Day level-4 lockdown here was well justified. We’ll see how that pans out over the next several days.

      • Legerwood says:

        The trends for hospital cases in Scotland from 4th December show levels rising from 945 to 1092 today with small, usually downward,fluctuations during this period. From the end of October to mid-Nov the level of hospital cases in Scotland was just over 1200.

        In ICU from 5th Dec to 15th Dec the numbers in ICU fell from 64 to 45. From 16th Dec to 29th Dec the cases in ICU rose from 49 to 65.

        You can find the data on trends here

        The situation with this virus can turn on a sixpence but at the moment the situation in hospitals in Scotland is still within the capacity of the hospitals. Even the reporter on BBC Reporting Scotland tonight stated this during her report. She may not be in post much longer.

        In England, particularly London, the situation is dire. Read some of the reports and Opinion pieces in the online Guardian if you want to know how bad.

        Staff in hospitals wherever the hospital is located are not immune to this virus. Nor are they endowed with superhuman strength that allows them to continue working at this pitch indefinitely but God knows they try. Even Covid-19 patients who are not in ICU require a highly concentrated level of care. An overwhelmed system cannot continue to provide that level of care. The result will be and increase in the number of deaths often of people who would previously survived. That is happening now in hospitals in America.

        • grizebard says:

          Part of the problem down south (besides the utterly lackadaisical attitude of the Tory UKGov, that is) appears to be a shortage of nursing staff. The “Nightingale” hospitals are ready but they don’t have enough people to run them. At least partly the reason is very likely as you state, ie. that an increasing number have themselves gone down with the virus, but is it also possible that an additional reason is a steady haemorrhage of EU-origin staff in the long leadup to Brexit…?

        • grizebard says:

          Part of the problem down south (besides the utterly lackadaisical attitude of the Tory UKGov, that is) appears to be a shortage of nursing staff. The “Nightingale” hospitals are ready but they don’t have enough people to run them. At least partly the reason is very likely as you state, ie. that an increasing number have themselves gone down with the virus, but is it also possible that an additional reason is a steady loss of EU-origin staff in the long leadup to Brexit…?

          • Hetty says:

            Medics also reported on twitter that NHS staff in England are not being prioritised for the vaccine. Also that they are very short staffed due to some coming down with Covid and hospitalised themselves. Their Nightingale hosps were closed down, were not even properly equipped anyway, and no staff so the £millions spent on them was a complete waste! Saw photo of old station which was meant to be a nightingale hosp in Manchester, it has no equipment and is fenced off, closed.

          • Legerwood says:

            Definitely the loss of EU medics and nurses in NHS England wont have helped. I saw the figure of 40000 bandied about with total vacancies in the region of 80,000 plus and some reports putting it as high as 100,000.
            The staff at all levels must be under a huge strain not just in England. A friend’s son has just finished his Foundation training and is working as a doctor in a Covid ward. He phones his mum regularly and as often as not just ends up in tears unable to speak because of what he is having to deal with each day. He won’t be the only one

            • grizebard says:

              Yes, bless them all. After this is all over, they should get a medal or some other kind of public recognition.

  66. Hamish100 says:

    Dear IR2
    This blog is getting busier so I must admit I like many others we must miss things or pass them over to get to more recent posts. Even we have disagreed in the past! That’s is healthy.
    I hope you will reconsider after a small break.

  67. Arthur Thomson says:

    The Brits are always at pains to find ways of inferring that Scotland’s covid figures are out of control. They think we’re all daft. The silver lining is that ultimately the truth outs that the Scottish Government is doing a good job in hugely difficult circumstances and the media are yet again exposed as liars.

    It’s the same basic process as Brit claims that the Scottish Government is failing in health, education etc – only to be refuted by public appreciation of the actual facts.

    You’d think the Brits would learn but I suppose it’s deficiencies in their education system that make that impossible.

  68. Hetty says:

    Only reason the Labour (HQ’d in London) branch in Scotland are voting against the ‘deal’ is because they are attempting to garner support from their ever more dwindling voters. If Scotland did not have an election coming up, they would vote for it, they take their orders from their London masters. Starmer must have had a word with them, knowing they are so going to the dogs in May ’21.
    It’s a done ‘deal’, Labour are fooling no one with their faux rejection of it.

  69. malkymcblain says:

    Completely OT

    Covid update from down under… plus it’s always good to see and hear Scots living abroad excelling in their Field. Dr Norman Swan. Watch.

  70. Dr Jim says:

    Michael Gove says “Yes there will be bumps in the road along the way but most importantly we will have sovereignty over our own laws and our country”

    What better advert could you have for Scottish Independence

  71. Dr Jim says:

    The Daily Express admits the EU would welcome an Independent Scotland and have openly declared Nicola Sturgeon would be offered the presidency in Scotlands first term but in the Daily Express’s stupidity they’re trying to spin it in such a way that Scotland won’t be offered this if the FM votes no to the Tory deal

    In other words do what England wants now and we’ll still rubbish Scotland later

    The Daily Express like their Tory masters just stink up the place

  72. gullaneno4 says:

    My Ossie/NZ distant relatives just cannot believe how crazy the UK is to leave the EU.

  73. jfngw says:

    I’m always astounded by the pop-up groups the BBC always manage to discover when they want someone critical of the SNP, they disappear when they start criticising the UK Gov (bye-bye SFF, your usefulness to the government funded organisation is no longer required).

    • grizebard says:

      How true. Whatever happened to former regulars and reliably-antsy “representatives” {cough} of independence on Colonial BBC: Cat Boyd, Angela Haggerty, Alex Bell and Loki, for example? (Though the latter continues to haunt us in the filler on channel 9.) Served their purpose then discarded when found wanting for the intended purpose.

    • grizebard says:

      I’m sure we can all think of several once-familiar faces on Colonial BBC who were reliably-antsy “supporters” {cough} of independence but have long since not appeared in front of their cameras presumably for not delivering on expectations.

  74. Jacksg says:


    There is a Scottish government briefing on covid at 3.15 today BBC Scotland.

  75. Capella says:

    Scottish Parliament discussion on the BREXIT deal on now. Mike Russell and Mike Nelson, Head of EU Directorate Scottish Government on now.

  76. Hamish100 says:

    Ian Blackford speech in HoC cut off on bbc news- again.

  77. Capella says:

    The debate in the Chamber on the Trade and Co-operation Agreemnt Between the UK and EU is at 1.30

  78. Dr Jim says:

    Tory MP Sir Peter Bottomley the Father of the House of the Westminster parliament reckons that we in Scotland should learn some *HUMILITY*
    He said that in reply to Ian Blackford amidst Tory Labour and Speaker Lindsay Hoyle’s laughter when Ian Blackford said Scotland would choose Independence and return to the EU

    Tory MP Liam Fox threatened Scotland over trade with England if Scotland chose Independence not realising that when Scotland rejoins the EU, to threaten Scotland with such action is to threaten the EU and of course the Tories have planted England in the position of NOT being able to threaten anybody anymore by withdrawing from the EU and such an action would attract heavy penalties by way of Tariffs on them if they even considered such stupidity

    Liam Fox also neglected to think about the energy supplied by Scotland to the North of England keeping the lights on there, post Independence England would have to pay for that energy not just transfer it as they do now

    So let’s all show some *HUMILITY* as we leave England to it’s own devices, and if we’re still wearing masks by then at least we can laugh behind them so as not to be as ill mannered as the Tories are today

    • grizebard says:

      The “threaten trade” ploy is going to feature, you can be sure of it. But as you say, with Blighty out of the EU it’s not going to have the same force. Though it does illustrate, as it did of late with Ireland, that it’s good to have a bunch of real friends when a bully’s around.

      What kind of supposed friend is it that continually mocks us, denigrates us and threatens us? Hopefully enough people this time will see through the nasty bluster and shove this damned Union.

      I’ve been ruminating over something I wrote in response to Ken upthread, and I’m beginning to conclude that nothing has changed in the English Establishment view of us over the last three plus centuries: the reason they want to hang on to us is because they fear us as potential competitors. Previously it was military, now it is economic. The routine neglect we get isn’t entirely accidental, they want Scotland to langish economically because otherwise we would begin to threaten their hold on power. They are happy to bleed our resources, but only so long as they can control and benefit from them. What positively appals them is the thought of having a serious autonomous competitor wealthy in both education and resources right on their doorstep. That’s where the routine denigration and the “too wee…” slander is coming from, they’re actually very afraid of us.

      • Dr Jim says:

        I’ve often argued that’s why Scotlands population growth was deliberately suppressed, can you imagine given the divisions in voting preferences between Scotland and England that if we had grown even say to around 35 million that if we really were equal countries would that not mean that Scotland would have the majority of MPs and be entitled to be the government of the UK

        It’s not difficult to imagine England going berserk at the thought of that, but of course if we had that sort of population they would have had to let us go a long time ago for fear of that happening

  79. gullaneno4 says:

    Not a great fan of Blackford but I thought his speech was pretty good

  80. Petra says:

    ‘We will be back We are Europe.’

    ”The European Movement in Scotland have released the video below which we think is extremely important along with the link to sign the petition.

    In the days ahead get your friends and family to sign to help give the campaign ahead a great start. The petition is backed by academic Kirsty Hughes, founder and director of The Scottish Centre on European Relations

    The European Movement in Scotland is the foremost and longest-established pro-EU, pro-Europe, non-party political campaigning organisation in Scotland. This in a non-party campaign and the supporters of any party can and should sign if they believe Scotland’s interests are best served by regaining our membership of the EU.

    Sign the petition.”


    First Minister:- ”The Scottish Government has lodged a Legislative Consent Memorandum (LCM) with the Scottish Parliament, recommending that consent cannot be given to the UK Government’s “inadequate and damaging” Brexit deal with the EU.”

    • grizebard says:

      So is Kirsty now coming off the fence over independence as the only practical route back? (Maybe it’s just me, but until now, I have always had the impression that she somehow hoped the UK as a whole would change its collective mind, eg. via a 2nd EURef.)

  81. grizebard says:

    R4 news just announced that the EU agreement has been flown over here by the RAF, for signing. Whit? The mind boggles. History once again repeated as farce. Is the flight perhaps going to be met by BoZo the Clown and waved in the air for the benefit of the cameras? {rolls eyes}

  82. grizebard says:

    R4 news trumpeting the “great success” of the Oxford vaccine. Tough if you’re old and get it, because it’s only 62% effective for you. Oh, and because another virus is the vector, your body immunises itself against that as well as CV-19, so they have to delay the booster for quite some time. (Or maybe use the Russian one, as some have suggested, which uses two other viruses as vectors.)

    Better than nothing, of course, and eminently transportable, but hardly as earth-shaking as the BBC would have us believe.

    • ArtyHetty says:

      I would have thought it would have been lauded as a ‘UK’ vaccine…they really are touting the ‘Oxford’ bit. If Scotland developed a vaccine, say in Edinburgh, it would most certainly not be called the ‘Edinburgh’ vaccine.

      • Statgeek says:

        I thought that researchers from all across the UK were ‘drafted’ to Oxford to work together (e.g. Dundee)?

        Could be wrong, but that’s what I heard back in the early days of Covid.

  83. Legerwood says:

    This is a link to a Guardian op/ed piece published yesterday evening online about Scotland and independence. For once comments were allowed. Worth a look. Sorry cannot archive on my mobile

  84. Statgeek says:

    Just noticed the Beeb have a ’20 stories of 2020′ in the Scotland page. Not one of them talks of Brexit / Johnson. Not one. Not even about his little camping expedition. It’s a 20 reasons to be dour, and anti-SNP, but they squeezed in a story about the RAF.

    I think that either spells out the Beeb’s coming focus, or it highlights how unionist the average Beeb reader is nowadays. Ho hum!

  85. grizebard says:

    Oh jeez, now we’ve got Hancock (the presentday comedian) now flag-waving in the House of Horrors and harking after WW2 and the code-breakers.

  86. Capella says:

    Watched the debate at Holyrood. Some fiery speeches from the SNP from Nicola Sturgeon, Stewart Stevenson, Bruce Crawford and Mike Russell. Joan McAlpine put the European Committee objections to the Tory “Agreement”.

    Patrick Harvie was also very coheernt and and made a strong case for independence. Even Richard Leonard stepped up to the plate.
    But ,oh dearie me, Ruth Davidson was woeful in her attempt to defend the indefensible.
    One frisson of shadenfreude was when Ruth Davidson referenced Wings Over Scotland in her attack on the SNP. A telling moment. How shameful.

    Nicola Sturgeon won the vote of course with Richard Leonard’s amendment. 92 for 30 against and one abstention.

  87. Hamish100 says:

    Aye WOS used to support unionism. Even today some on there support Gove over Blackford such is the twisted perception of their world!
    I do wonder if MacCaskill as a MP writing for that blog once more knows what the quagmire he is got himself into?

  88. Capella says:

    Ian Blackford in Westminster and Mike Russell in Holyrood both referred to our dual citizenship with France until 1903. I didn’t know that. Anyone got the detail? Where is Robert Peffers when we need him.?

  89. Petra says:

    Just listen to LBJ throwing far-fetched statistics about … again, coming out with the ”Scottish Nationalist Party” slur … again and Lindsay Hoyle, Speaker, doing nothing about it other than trying to shut Ian Blackford up … again.

    There’s talk on that other site, initiated by MacAskill, about our MP’s walking out of the Commons. Note that he didn’t do so today. Any views on a walk out, for or against, and if so when would be the right or most effective time to do so?

    ‘Boris Johnson warned by Ian Blackford after getting SNP’s name wrong AGAIN.’ Hoyle


    We’ll have to get a move on and spruce up our usage of our Gaelic or Scots languages 😀.

    ‘English ditched as the official language of the European Union.’

    ..”Every member state has the right to choose the language in which they want any translations, and according to European and Scottish affairs correspondent Udo Seiwert-Fauti, Malta has chosen Maltese, Cyprus opted for Greek and the Republic of Ireland has chosen Gaelic.”..

    • Petra says:

      From February 2019 but still worth a read.

      Udo Seiwert-Fauti:- ‘How the Scottish Parliament has changed the nation’s identity.’

      …”The Parliament has reached a level recognised in Europe and the world, while some parts of the Scottish media still have problems keeping up with the pace of this modern and forward-looking institution. While some colleagues in Scotland and the rUK still see Holyrood as a smaller version of the London House of Commons (which it is not, remember the representational voting system), Europe and the world regards it as well-established, delivering bills, laws and work on a very high European level…”

      ..”Could Scotland join the EU? Do not even discuss it, the answer is very clear: YES! Holyrood has made it possible to create and establish Scottish hubs in Brussels, Berlin and soon Berne. It might be strange for an unbiased and impartial journalist to also confirm this: Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is a wee bit of a star in Europe. Europeans – and certainly Germans – know what to expect when she arrives to fight for Scotland. Even the United Nations have finally realised it.”..


      Udo Seiwert-Fauti:- ”Whatever Brexit happens there is one consolation for all of us. Meeting “Scots abroad”, quoting this famous McCalmans song:

    • Legerwood says:

      No walk out. If you are not in the room you cannot influence events or show that Scotland’s influence is negligible.

      When the SNP MPs walk out of that chamber it will be with heads held high coming home to an independent Scotland.

      A short, dramatic walkout such as they did to highlight the power grab can be effective but the greater part of its effectiveness is if it is used sparingly. Much of the effectiveness of that walkout was that it was swiftly followed by the Continuity Bill and the subsequent court case. The judgement showed quite clearly that power had been taken from the Scottish parliament and showed too the lengths the UK Gov went to in order to take back the powers.

      The UK Gov won the case, a rare win in court for them, but the Scottish Government won the argument. The next time they say a power grab is taking place people will know they are not crying wolf.

      Staying put is not easy but not being there would be worse.

      • Petra says:

        ”No walk out. If you are not in the room you cannot influence events or show that Scotland’s influence is negligible. When the SNP MPs walk out of that chamber it will be with heads held high coming home to an independent Scotland.”..

        Thanks for responding to the question and totally agree with you, Legerwood.

        • ArtyHetty says:

          Well said indeed Legerwood. Walking out now would just give the unionists the opportunity to silence the SNP and Scotland. Staying put, they can’t do that, it must be quite frustrating for the BritNats. Tough.

      • Bob Lamont says:


      • Tam the Bam says:

        Well said Legerwood…..the next time I see the SNP MP’s walk-out of that place…I dont want them to walk back!

      • grizebard says:

        If you walk out, you can’t jam up proceedings there. I’m all in favour of jamming up proceedings there. Constantly. Prodigiously. It’s called “taking back control”, or something.

  90. jfngw says:

    Will the next ‘wee blue book’ be the Tory manifesto, seems to be a site promoted by Ruth Davidson now! You have to laugh sometimes.

    • jfngw says:

      It pains me to write this but this Brexit deal puts a spanner in our works even when we gain independence with regards to fishing. It is unlikely WM is ever going to willing accede to our independence so we are going to have to take it. The problem is we then will be asking the EU to recognise as an independent country, our negotiating hand of ‘if you recognise us we will respond by throwing your fishermen out of our waters’ isn’t a strong one. Westminster sow their seeds of destruction to bloom even after you leave them, they are a malevolent force.

  91. barpe says:

    It would be interesting to see the reactions of the Bathistan Chronicles followers to be used by Rooth the Mooth in a Holyrood debate – but I wouldn’t want to risk an infection by even dropping in to that sewer.

    Gave up on the fake Rev some years ago, and feel all the better for it (the only event I ever thought was a good thing about Dugdale was lightening his ‘personal finances’ in court!!).

    • weegingerdug says:

      He was also being cited approvingly by right wing Tory arch- Unionist & latterly Brexit Party MEP Brian Monteith in an article in the Scotsman a few days ago. Make of that what you will

    • Tam the Bam says:

      Aye!….’personal finances’ my ****.
      Back in the day when he had a focus on Indy…I contributed several times.
      His Trumpian narcissism however took him off on a wayward tack after the Dugdale case.He could not let it go.I sensed then things were not going to end well.

      So Barpe…he hasnt had his ‘personal finances’ lightened whatsoever…. but I would hazard a guess that his ‘Indy-fighting-warchest’ is considerably lighter!!!

      Never again!

  92. jfngw says:

    Time for someone to make a departing gift for the Mooth, a tableaux of all her promises and the resulting reality. Maybe in the form of the Bayou tapestry, but it probably needs to be a good bit longer to encompass all the deceit. Maybe she could wear it as her robe, a fitting tribute for her London masters to her betrayal of Scotland.

    • Tam the Bam says:

      I think Nicola announced all the Mooth’s ;tableaux’ of catastrophies today at Holyrood jfngw!

      • jfngw says:

        Yes but hardly anyone will have seen more than the highlights the media chose to select, I was looking for something more physical. Zarkwan (Colin Dunn) is good at this type of thing, I think he has most of them already stored away.

  93. scrandoonyeah says:

    If you want your blood to boil watch Brexiteer Mark Francois in his Commons speech on youtube. A very nasty piece of work.

    It is posted by Maximillien Robespierre

  94. Petra says:

    Dougie one of the brass neck brigade.

    Douglas Ross MP:- ”No amount of spin from the Nats can hide that after months of warning against a No Deal outcome, that is exactly what the SNP will vote for on Wednesday.”

  95. Petra says:

    ‘On the Brexit Deal and Erasmus the SNP appear clear and decisive, and Labour contorted and confused.’

    ”It has been a good week for the SNP. On two major issues – due to their own clarity of thought and the errors of others – they have banked clear political wins. On both issues the Labour Party by contrast looks contorted and confused.

    First the UK-EU Deal.

    Here Labour was making noises that it would back the Deal long before it was even agreed, and Starmer stated for certain he would whip Labour MPs to back it before the text had emerged, and Labour’s MPs are going to march through the Aye lobby knowing full well that the one day allocated to scrutiny of the Deal is deeply inadequate. By contrast the SNP waited until it was clear how Labour would behave, and then stated their MPs will vote against the Deal. The SNP’s argument is simple and clear: this Deal is not a good Deal for the UK or for Scotland, and as there is no danger of No Deal, we vote against. That has left the only Labour MP in Scotland, Ian Murray, tying himself in knots.”..


    Nothing would surprise me. This Third Reich crew think that they can do what they like.

    ‘How could Priti Patel reintroduce the death penalty?’

    ..”So, aside from the many philosophical objections to the death penalty, what practical problems will Ms Patel’s scoping exercise into the establishment of a post-Brexit bloody code need to address?”..

    ..”Many of the problems that apply to Northern Ireland would apply with equal force to Scotland. Criminal justice is a matter within the competence of the Scottish Parliament, and there could be no serious question of Westminster legislating to reintroduce the death penalty into Scottish law.”..

  96. jfngw says:

    It was no mistake BBC Scotland not covering the debate today, they knew their old colleague would be torn to ribbons. What they wanted was to be able to present their edited version, which with careful editing can be made to look like she gave as good as she got.

    Don’t know if that was before or after they read the eulogy from the Ruth Davidson twitter account.

    • Tam the Bam says:

      …..and Editor-in-Chief?….yup…you’ve guessed it…….Glenn (I am a lineman..sorry…liar.. for the County) Campbell.

  97. Petra says:

    Dearie me 😀. Intellectual crisis? 😂😂😂

    Glenn Miller:- ”That’s another argument though and whether you like what they say or not, it shows the Yes movement is more than just the SNP. I don’t think Unionism as it stands in Scotland is capable of that level of discussion.”

    David Leask:- Unionism is having a hard time right now. I’m a linguist and a reporter, not a political expert. But it’s clear the No side is losing its hegemony & is in a bit of an intellectual crisis. With cybernats, behaviours were always worse when Yes was losing. Same with cyberyoons.



    ..”Not much reported but in the small print of the BBC report clearing Andrew Marr of bias just because he used the wrong data to lie to viewers, is a requirement that he and his staff get help.”..

  98. Petra says:

    ‘British sovereignty run by Europe.’


    Katharine Parker:- ”Holidaymakers or online shoppers who buy items from EU that are valued at more than £390 will have to pay customs duties. VAT and handling fees may also apply on some items, while parcels may be held up in post offices until all fees have been cleared.”

  99. Petra says:

    Check out Ann’s latest links on the indyref2 site.


    Check out Professor John Robertson’s site.

  100. Golfnut says:

    Read all of this thread.

    A lot more to surface.

    Parliament of course will have little chance to alter any of this.

  101. Golfnut says:

    Following on from my comments yesterday, this is what the SNP MP’s are voting against, Labour are desperate to bury their complicity by accusing the SNP of voting against a deal.

  102. Hamish100 says:

    Hope our regular contributor Welsh Sion is ok.
    Still have a guid Hogmanay everyone.

  103. Millsy says:

    I hear that an EU spokesman ( Douglas Adams ? ) added a final line to the UK/EU deal .

    ”Goodbye UK and thanks for all the fish ! ”

  104. Golfnut says:

    Insight after the fact should be a criminal offence for the media for what was blatantly obvious to many, never the less worth reading.

  105. Ken2 says:

    The UK fishing policy. To throw back dead fish. They wasted £Billions of fish for years. Instead of using larger bets, Westminster policy ruined the fishing industry. The SNP wanted no part in it. It was the SNP negotiation which resulted in increased quotas to use larger nets. Richard Lochhead.

    The Tory total incompetents will be voted out.

  106. Capella says:

    I just heard R4 announce that hospital admissions have reached 23,000? in England and Scotland. That’s new. They usually call it the UK. Has NI already left? And what about Wales?

    So that is probably 1,000 in Scotland and 22,000 in England.
    I may have got the numbers wrong but it hardly seems to matter when the public service broadcaster can’t bring itself to convey any meaningful information in this deadly pandemic.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      They keep swapping reference points to create confusion, but England and Scotland is certainly a new tactic, but you see why – As ever it’s about diluting England’s bad news for English listeners – As the previously used Welsh smokescreen no longer works in their favour, go with whoever is lowest…. Next week it will be IOM ?
      The media have been complicit in London’s disinformation campaign throughout, that’s why the Tories were livid over the FM’s Covid briefings, many in England were watching them to get straight information to extrapolate the best case scenario for England…

    • Legerwood says:

      According to the Daily data released yesterday by the Scottish Gov there were 1133 people in hospital in Scotland on 30th Dec with recently confirmed Covid-19. The previous day it was 1092.

  107. Capella says:

    RT has been digging into ONS stats. Curiously, deaths in English care homes are lower than usual although excess deaths are up.

    Hundreds more dying at home in England & Wales during Covid-19 pandemic than normal year, UK govt stats body says

  108. Dr Jim says:

    Over 18000 excess deaths have mysteriously occurred in England from old age and other age related illnesses compared to every other year and sooner or later the ONS will be forced to release those numbers, but as with all things *British* if it damages the current government they’ll suppress this information for as long as they can until the general population begins to forget how bad things actually were then they’ll pick the opportune moment like a Royal baby or a much loved celebrity demise to use as cover

    I reckon it’s why the Scottish government has meticulously recorded as accurately as they can the real figures in Scotland so that unlike England it won’t come back to bite them when the elections come round so the *Union* party can’t use statistics like this to throw at Scotland, of course when Scotland does it’s own public enquiry into the pandemic the figures from every corner of the UK will just have to be exposed for comparison

    Well it would be only logical

  109. fergusgreen says:

    If anyone is interested, Scot Goes Pop is crowdfunding an opinion poll on Scottish Independence:

  110. Capella says:

    The best antidote to BBC and MSM misinformation about covid figures is, as always, Prof John Robertson’s site. He has several articles every day pointing out how devious the media are. Worth reading through his December output if your blood pressure is a bit too low.

    • Stephen McKenzie says:


      Here’s another site that is very quick in producing daily stats on Covid Stats in UK nations and is not something that you are likely to see on the BBC!

      • Capella says:

        Thx Stephen – that’s an interesting site. 🙂

      • Petra says:

        Yeah thanks for that Stephen. Interesting right enough.

        ..”The Office for National Statistics also produces a weekly report on the number of deaths registered in Britain that mention Covid-19 on a death certificate. This figure, which includes deaths outside of hospitals, is many thousands of deaths higher than the reported daily death toll.”..

        • Bob Lamont says:

          Is the greater problem that Scots have recognised the scam for what is is and there is no recovery path beyond wealth that saves them.

  111. Some of us, who have been involved in the formation of The National Yes Network, have been working on a set of principles by which we work as local Yes Groups and how we interact with each other across the county. We believe that we really ought to be concentrating on what unites us, rather than what divides us. Below is a draft of what we’ve come up with so far.

    The following pledge relies very heavily on an adaptation of the “Indy pledge” and NYN thank the original author for their work.

    “The National Yes Network is an inclusive meshwork that values all people equally and does not discriminate on the basis of race, colour, gender, religious beliefs or non beliefs or sexual orientation. We will promote this inclusiveness in all our expressions and actions

    We will work with respect for all people and groups, regardless of politics or differences of opinion.

    We are a peaceful grouping and apply peaceful means of achieving independence for Scotland.

    We will promote a positive vision for Scottish independence.

    We are an open grassroots movement and work with the utmost transparency in our ideas and actions with our main aim and focus being to provide individuals and groups the ability to access that which they need. This will be achieved mainly by providing contact with other networked groups.

    We are a broad and diverse movement, and expect individuals to take responsibility for their own actions and contributions to the campaign for independence.

    We believe that the dynamic of the grassroots movement is the key to success. It is our aim to facilitate the grassroots movement not to instruct them. As we work towards independence, we will enable and encourage fellow members to develop their own skills and talents by encouraging collegiate practices.”

    I wish to draw everyone’s attention to the penultimate paragraph. “We are a broad and diverse movement…..”. To my mind that means that I have to accept that I will not share my beliefs with everyone else in the movement. That’s just being pragmatic and I think the Yes Movement could do with a healthy does of pragmatism. We have to be able to work together, based on our shared belief in Independence.

    Our movement is enormous. Hundreds of groups exist, with varying levels of activity. We are educated. We are capable of critical thought. We have a wealth of bloggers with a wealth of opinions. Some grate with us, but touch others.

    Without doubt there will be a place for Wee Ginger Dug, WoS, Bella, Jeggit etc etc in the months ahead. If a new Wee Blue Book arrives and it’s as good a tool as the last one, don’t go dismissing it on the basis of who wrote it.

    So I appeal to all that will listen. If you read something you disagree with, there should be no wrong in saying so, but please keep it courteous and if you feel you can’t do that, then please take it offline.

  112. Arthur Thomson says:

    You’re spot on regarding the covid stats Dr Jim.

    The Brits lie as a matter of routine – it’s as close as they get to a principle. Nicola and her team know that the truth is their friend. It is hugely frustrating to watch and listen to the BBC etc deliberately spreading lies and confusion. But it is refreshing to see a Scottish Government working on the basis of principle in the genuine interests of the people.

    Each day I listen for Scotland’s stats and hope out loud for positive news. Nicola and the innumerable others in Scotland, who are giving their all, deserve whatever positivity they can get. I hope the Brits get what they deserve.

  113. Somqe of us, who have been involved in the formation of The National Yes Network, have been working on a set of principles by which we work as local Yes Groups and how we interact with each other across the county. We believe that we really ought to be concentrating on what unites us, rather than what divides us. Below is a draft of what we’ve come up with so far.

    The following pledge relies very heavily on an adaptation of the “Indy pledge” and NYN thank the original author for their work.

    “The National Yes Network is an inclusive meshwork that values all people equally and does not discriminate on the basis of race, colour, gender, religious beliefs or non beliefs or sexual orientation. We will promote this inclusiveness in all our expressions and actions

    We will work with respect for all people and groups, regardless of politics or differences of opinion.

    We are a peaceful grouping and apply peaceful means of achieving independence for Scotland.

    We will promote a positive vision for Scottish independence.

    We are an open grassroots movement and work with the utmost transparency in our ideas and actions with our main aim and focus being to provide individuals and groups the ability to access that which they need. This will be achieved mainly by providing contact with other networked groups.

    We are a broad and diverse movement, and expect individuals to take responsibility for their own actions and contributions to the campaign for independence.

    We believe that the dynamic of the grassroots movement is the key to success. It is our aim to facilitate the grassroots movement not to instruct them. As we work towards independence, we will enable and encourage fellow members to develop their own skills and talents by encouraging collegiate practices.”

    I wish to draw everyone’s attention to the penultimate paragraph. “We are a broad and diverse movement…..”. To my mind that means that I have to accept that I will not share my beliefs with everyone else in the movement. That’s just being pragmatic and I think the Yes Movement could do with a healthy does of pragmatism. We have to be able to work together, based on our shared belief in Independence.

    Our movement is enormous. Hundreds of groups exist, with varying levels of activity. We are educated. We are capable of critical thought. We have a wealth of bloggers with a wealth of opinions. Some grate with us, but touch others.

    Without doubt there will be a place for Wee Ginger Dug, WoS, Bella, Jeggit etc etc in the months ahead. If a new Wee Blue Book arrives and it’s as good a tool as the last one, don’t go dismissing it on the basis of who wrote it.

    So I appeal to all that will listen. If you read something you disagree with, there should be no wrong in saying so, but please keep it courteous and if you feel you can’t do that, then please take it offline.

    • Capella says:

      These are noble aims kiltedsplendour. However, I forsee a problem. I notice you have omitted the protected characteristic “sex” from your list of non-descrimination groups but have included “gender” which is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Is this an oversight or intentional?

    • Dr Jim says:

      Well that all sounds lovely I’m even singing Kumbaya but if you believe for one nano second that certain people you mention are on the side of Independence then I’ll book a holiday to wherever you live because it must be a place I don’t know about where everyone is happy all the time and everyone is compelled to tell the truth by Wonder Woman’s magic lasso, plus the only people who actually read the wee blue book were internet geeks like us and truthfully half of it was nonsense anyway which I’m overwhelmingly pleased that the general population couldn’t be bothered looking at, it’s very appearance was bad for us as is the banned for hate speech foul mouthed internet twitter account clown who wrote it is now, fortunately his behaviour doesn’t reach the general population much to his chagrin and brobdingnagian self importance

      Independence will be won by the people deciding for themselves on the basis of the behaviour of politics and politicians and it will be won organically amongst the population by themselves for themselves and once a population feels secure and confident in the politicians who represent them Scotland will win, because that’s the sustainable long term way to win

      No matter how many groups you set up or talks you have this is Scotland a suppressed nation for three hundred years and you can’t convince people by trying to convince the already previously conned it makes them suspicious and they don’t like it, Scotland is within touching distance of Independence right now because the people are seeing it and you can’t live it if you can’t see it

      So flags and banners are nice and fun for all but that’s not what convinces Mr and Mrs Joe and Jean public, we’re at as much as 58% right now for one reason and one reason alone and the more the Union party attack that reason the more support will rise, there will not be a campaign like the last one, there will be no need and Westminster will not be allowed to run it again like they did last time, Scotland’s FM want’s to “win a referendum not just hold one” she’s done the homework

      Please don’t take this as me being abrasive it’s just that like the general public I’m Scottish and suspicious

      • And you’ve just highlighted the problem. You have a list of those you won’t have any involvement with. They probably do too. Everyone needs to get pragmatic and stop this sniping at each other.

        • Hetty says:

          Dr.Jim’s comment is pragmatic, it is not sniping! He points out where we are at now, how it came to this point, and what will work best to secure independence for Scotland, given the long road it’s taken so far!
          Dr.Jim is a valued contributer here, he makes astute comments in his own style,
          how dare you attempt to discredit his input.
          What I would like to know is, if your ‘movement’ or ‘network’ or whatever you call it, is so ‘transparent’, then you would not have a problem identifying yourself. Maybe this is not the place for your ‘movement’, twitter will give you a wider non ‘sniping’ audience, no?

    • grizebard says:

      You are basically right, of course. We do all need to keep the big picture in mind and work together towards that common end. That’s a theme which most of us here, under the positive influence of our genial host, have been consistently urging and promoting. Alas of late it has been anything but that theme in certain other places, so I hope you might forgive a degree of scepticism from some on here about your chances of success. All I can say is if you can succeed, good on you, but with at least one individual and his purulent website of now-doubtful allegiance, you’ll have your work cut out.

    • Petra says:

      Interesting kiltedsplendour and that’s some map. It fair cheers me up, and others no doubt, to see such a vast network of Independence supporters 😀. Fantastic.

    • ArtyHetty says:

      Would have thought those ‘principles’ are a given, nothing new there, the yes movement pretty much abides by actual decent ‘principles’ anyway. Not even sure the next referendum should be headed by anyone or any particular faction, (or ‘network’!) neither is it necessarily going to be called the ‘yes movement.
      It won’t be a repeat of last time, that’s for sure, which gave ‘no’ a voice. Scotland is a diverse and outward looking country, and that is evident by the way that the First Minister of Scotland talks of inclusivity, not exclusivity. Yes groups will ‘unite’ and of course they have the same goal, it would be daft otherwise. What is this ‘dynamic of the grassroots movement’ anyway?
      No time for a talking shop, it’s pretty much at the stage of holding a vote with a simple question. Crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s is where we are at.
      The ‘positive vision’ for independence is already established. All that is required is to share information, and actual facts, and ensure that the BritNat lies are countered at every opportunity. The groundwork is done, the genuine people who support independence don’t need to be told how to conduct themselves, unlike those who oppose independence.
      What we will see however, are agent provocateurs, guaranteed, online, on the streets, it’s a known tactic by those who want to thwart democracy in order to control the resources of other countries. Maybe put your efforts into keeping an eye on that, rather than coming into WGD and dictating your rules and making demands, that’s suspect just for starters. As for any ‘wee book’, we can all make our own minds up about how relevant, genuine,or valid that would be.
      Do send us a link to your website, what is it called, national network for yes? Why not Scottish network for independence? Anyway, be great to have a reckie at your NNFY, a network, sounds very underground.

  114. An oversight and that’s why it’s a draft at the moment. The intention is to get buy in from the movement and get Yes Groups talking to each other, sharing resources etc etc.
    Your input is appreciated and I’ll feed that back to the group working on it. Incidentally, all of the individuals involved in NYN, including myself, are “interim”. We need more groups and individuals to step up and take part. Next meeting is 10th Jan, if of interest?

    • Capella says:

      Then you need to think about what you want to happen because there’s no surer way of being torn apart by the gender wars than using gender when you mean sex. I know it doesn’t sound polite – but it is the legal term and is defined in law. Gender isn’t. Nobody can define what it means.

      • I think you’ll find that I’m well aware of the gender/sex issues. I have my own opinions on them and I’m well used to getting called all sorts of names by those who disagree. It is ultimately an irrelevance to the constitutional issue we all agree on and is one of a number of issues that only serve to highlight our divisions. That’s not what I’m interested in and most certainly won’t hold me back from working with those whose opinions I don’t share on anything other than independence. That’s what broad churches are.

        • Bob Lamont says:

          Then WHY is your site a bricked wall, would it would be reasonable to say your location is Brainlesstree Essex ?

          • ArtyHetty says:

            Aye, sounds about right Bob.

          • Would it be reasonable to say that you are being extremely sceptical about something that you haven’t taken any time to investigate further?
            Have you done to achieve our shared aim of independence? Carping from the sidelines doesn’t count. I know what I’ve done and I accept that I’m capable of doing even more, but no one is perfect.

        • Dr Jim says:

          Just because certain people say they support Independence for Scotland doesn’t make it so, the blogger you just defended by dodging the question is a past master at telling people what they want to hear and making a nice pile of cash out of them for doing it, just like George Galloway supports Independence for every other country in the world that doesn’t have it except for Scotland then five minutes later he’s paid to support something else and he does it with great enthusiasm, Nigel Farage has made a nice living out of that behaviour, Boris Johnson became a Prime Minister by punting something he didn’t believe in for money and a personal bet, for the right amount of money you can get most people to say they support all kinds of things and right at this moment money is being sloshed all over the Internet to encourage folk to *get involved* in Scottish Independence, Scottish politics are where it’s at at the moment, we’re trending, pick a side and get blogging posting criticising abusing even Kezia Dugdale was paying out so much a word at one time to those who would troll the FM on behalf of the Labour party

          Actions speak for themselves, words mean nothing without them, websites and anonymous bloggers from foreign lands who don’t have a vote in Scotland must be at least slightly suspect as to motive no?

          • What question did I dodge? The website is a work in progress and not something that I’m specifically involved with, so I can’t answer that question.
            Nothing wrong with being opinionated either. Those that aren’t also tend to be dead behind the eyes.
            I try to be conciliatory. I have no beef with you. I’ll defend anyone’s right to have an opinion, even when I disagree with it. That includes prominent bloggers across the whole movement. You may choose to see that as defending WoS, but I frequently disagree with the site as I sometimes do with Paul’s opinions. What I don’t do is start questioning their credentials as Yessers and I’m afraid I see far too much of that BTL on both this page and WoS. That’s why I commented, because I believe that the way forward is to emphasise that which we share and put aside issues that cause us to bicker unnecessarily. Bickering is never constructive.
            Like I said to ArtyHetty, give NYN a chance. Ask questions, because that is only natural, but don’t just carp from the sidelines. Make the movement more like you’d like it to be, by actually engaging with new initiatives before you jump to conclusions.
            Have a great 2021.

        • ArtyHetty says:

          ‘I wish to draw everyone’s attention to the penultimate paragraph. “We are a broad and diverse movement…..”. To my mind that means that I have to accept that I will not share my beliefs with everyone else in the movement’.

          Take a look at what you said earlier, this broad church of yours sure seems just a tad opinionated. You must think we are all zipped up the back.

          • I try to engage with fellow Yessers to highlight a Yes Movement initiative about which you may not be aware. You choose to go straight to scepticism and critique. I make an effort and you try and shoot me down. I don’t think that’s very constructive.
            I, and others involved in NYN, are appealing to Yessers to get involved. That very much still stands for your good self and other sceptics on here. Why don’t you get onboard and help to shape our direction? I guarantee you, assuming that you are more than just a keyboard warrior, that you’ll find people you know and respect who are already helping to shape the direction of NYN.

  115. Arthur Thomson says:

    On Tuesday St Barts hospital, London had 638 covid patients and 139 in ICU. Today Scotland has 1174 covid patients and 70 in ICU.

    That rubbish Scottish health service isn’t doing too bad me thinks.

    I will never forget scumbag Johnson’s negativity about the SNP’s governance of health in Scotland.

    Those who voted for the British nasty party are already facing the consequences of their actions and they are nowhere near the eye of the storm. When unemployment kicks in there is going to be bedlam.

  116. Arthur Thomson says:

    Circa 50K cases and 850 deaths in England yesterday – assuming that they are being even remotely truthful.

    The Brits surely know how to handle a crisis.

    Imagine how it must have been living through WW1. What lies must have the Brits been disseminating? Nobody will ever know the truth about England’s covid casualties.

  117. yesindyref2 says:

    Jesus wept at the negativity “You’re not one of our gang so sod off”.

    I have no personal view about The National Yes Network, but its launch was featured in an article in The National just last month, 25th Nov:

    and from its pages this is a VERY useful user map, even if in its early stages:

    Rome wasn’t built in a day, and then the Barbarians destroyed it, Historically there’s a fair chance they were Celts kicked out of Germany. Nothing changes.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      You can access that map via this page:

      I suspect a LOT of work has gone into that map – if it’s theirs. Click for your local YES group.

      • ArtyHetty says:

        There is nothing to see, just a map, and bad design.

        • yesindyref2 says:

          It’s not just a map, it’s an interactive map.

          Try clicking on any of the symbols, and it gives more information in the left-hand panel. Some just have the URL for the YES group facebook, twitter or website, some have more details. It takes time to collect and enter such information. It also has all the pro-Indy websites around the map – click on them and the same thing happens.

    • ArtyHetty says:

      People are quite right to question folk who turn up and making demands and citing rules,and, ‘work to unite not divide’, hm hm. I smell something off..

      • Instead of spouting off about something that you don’t know a lot about, how about asking how you can help to make something better. How about finding out who is already involved and why? You’ll be made to feel welcome, as are all who support Independence.

      • I also made no demands. This is about creating and strengthening links between local Yes Groups while respecting each groups right to autonomy.
        Are you in a local Yes Group? If not, can we help you locate one nearby or set one up?

      • yesindyref2 says:

        “I smell something off.”

        I suggest it’s time for your annual shower.

  118. Hamish100 says:

    YIR2 – Glad you are back on WGD.

    The National Yes Movement is to be welcomed as a suitable structure is necessary so we don’t duplicate effort.

  119. diabloandco says:

    Paul, may 2021 bring swift recovery to you and for all of us a healthy , happy year.

  120. Arthur Thomson says:

    All the best for the new year to all who genuinely support Scotland’s return to independence.

  121. Paul, Thank you for yet another incredible year’s work.
    Look after you and yours.
    WGD is looking down from Doggie Heaven smiling on us all, I’m sure. Rest up, mon brave, and ready yourself for an incredible 2021.

    A Guid New Year, Duggers.

    I’m about to uncork a wee bottle that has lain tucked in the cupboard for the thick end of nine months now.

    • malkymcblain says:

      Mae aw yer lums reek briskly duggers.

      21 will be a vintage year 🤞 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

  122. Hamish100 says:

    Happy New Year. Full of potential and promise if we make it so for our country.

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