If you really believe that the biggest enemy of the independence cause is the SNP leadership and a substantial chunk of the party, if you really believe that the only way to attain independence is to overthrow them and set up another party, then you have given up on any realistic chances of attaining independence for decades to come. That is the unarguable consequence of your own logic. You will have consigned Scotland to a Tory dystopia for the foreseeable future.
Your tactics are going to result in a much longer period of time before Scotland ever manages to win back its independence – if we ever do because by the time that (if ever) this new party is in a position to win support Scotland will have been gutted by the Conservatives. You will have committed the errors that indy fundamentalists have constantly accused the Scottish left of – of putting other issues before the goal of achieving independence.
You might believe that the SNP has been taken over by careerists and opportunists and that’s why it’s not making progress toward our goal. There is indeed abundant evidence of careerism and opportunism among sections of the party. Sadly that’s inevitable in any political party which has been successful electorally. If you want to wipe out the SNP and start afresh with a new purist party purged of careerists, you will enjoy the best part of a decade in the electoral wilderness before your new party becomes established – if it ever does. In the meantime the Tories will continue to crush Scotland. Untold damage will be done, and Scotland will be without a strong voice to resist because you’ve been spending your time and energy attacking the one Scottish party that Westminster fears.
However as soon as your purist party starts to become successful, as it must do before it can achieve the aims you have for it, then it too will start to attract its share of careerists and opportunists whom you will accuse of being comfortable with the status quo. Then we’ll be back at square one having wasted a decade or more and a new generation of indy fundamentalists will be demanding a clear out of the opportunists and careerists in your no longer quite so purist party.
This is not Estonia in the dying days of the Soviet Union. What worked for the Baltic states is not going to succeed in the very different political and historical circumstances which prevail in Scotland. Proposals to “dissolve the union as soon as possible” are doomed to failure – unless, and this is an important caveat, we exhaust all other avenues first, and crucially are seen to have done so by both the Scottish public and the international community. If we cannot take both majority Scottish support and international opinion with us at every step of the way, we will lose.
It is a comforting straw man argument to claim that those of us who resist jumping the gun are saying that the only path to independence is to keep asking nicely for a referendum. However demanding a referendum with a Section 30 is a vital first step, one which cannot be skipped over no matter how convinced you might be that Johnson will never agree to it. I have consistently argued for years that there are alternative routes to independence, nevertheless it remains a political imperative that first we must demand a Section 30 order from Westminster following a Scottish election which has been convincingly won by pro-independence parties standing on a manifesto explicitly demanding a referendum. And that’s not a conditional manifesto commitment either, such as a we had in 2016 – a mandate which in any case was fatally holed below the water by the SNP’s huge losses in the 2017 Westminster General Election.
However the truth is that no “mandate for a referendum” is worth anything if there is not majority support in Scotland for independence. It is only within the past few months that we’ve seen such support. Pointing to previous SNP mandates and demanding to know why there has not been a referendum yet is merely to demand to know why we’ve not had a referendum that we were likely to lose. The point of the exercise here is not to get a referendum, the point is to win it.
The only way, the ONLY way, that a unilateral declaration of independence would have any chance at all of success is if Scotland first pursues and does to death all other alternatives. The first of those steps is to achieve similar political conditions which resulted in the first referendum, and to dare the British Government to refuse. It’s their refusal which legitimises other courses of action. That is the point of a demand for a Section 30 order that the those who bewail that Johnson and the Tories will never agree to a Section 30 order are missing. The Conservatives’ refusal of a Section 30 order following the clear and unarguable demand for a referendum by the people of this country in a Scottish election is exactly what we need in order to legitimise other strategies.
We can best achieve this by refusing to concede that Johnson has any moral or political right to refuse, by insisting that he must agree if the UK wants to continue to call itself democratic. This is because we need to ensure that Scottish public opinion and international opinion are sufficiently angered that they will back subsequent action, action which may even have to include a mass campaign of civil disobedience. This is such a simple point, it’s really peculiar that so many people are so blind to it.
We cannot simply assert “Oh well Johnson will never agree to a Section 30 order”. We have to have the fact of his refusal of a Section 30 order. It’s only after that has happened – and not merely when we have asserted that it’s going to happen – that successive steps gain political legitimacy in the eyes of a majority of the Scottish electorate and the international community. To believe otherwise is wishful thinking. It’s to assume that all of Scotland is already as convinced of the need for independence as you are and as willing to support a route to independence other than the route mapped out in the Edinburgh Agreement. Well they’re not. We have to make sure that they become so. I’ve yet to hear anything from those who demand UDI or immediate action which is going to do that.
To believe that the international community would recognise Scottish independence if we do not first exhaust the Section 30 order route and go directly for a plebiscite election or UDI is frankly delusional. Because the very first thing that they’ll ask is – why did you not demand a referendum from Westminster like the last time? And then all that the Scottish government could reply would be “Well we didn’t think that they’d agree.” To which the obvious retort is “How can you know that if you didn’t ask?”
There are no short cuts here. Before any unilateral declaration of independence can succeed it MUST be preceded by a ballot in which we achieve a majority explicitly for independence. And that ballot in turn can only have legitimacy in the eyes of the Scottish public and the international community if we have first demanded a referendum from Westminster and Westminster has given a refusal. “Well we all know that they will refuse” just isn’t going to cut it.
This is all the more the case because the Conservatives are currently showing every sign of cracking. You don’t start to air discussions about gerrymandering the ballot if you are convinced that there will never be a vote. You don’t start to talk about the secession of parts of Scotland if you are convinced that independence can be resisted forever. These are not political giants we’re up against here. They are small men and women with limited visions and limited horizons. Yet there are people in the independence movement who are more convinced of the ability of the Conservatives to resist Scotland’s democratic rights than the Conservatives themselves are.
A macho fantasy of Scotland’s struggle for independence, skipping vital democratic steps, is not a path we need to take – far less is it the only path we need to take. Indeed it’s a path that we have a moral responsibility to avoid. Arguing that it’s the way we need to go is playing into the hands of the British state and British nationalists. It’s setting the independence movement up as an undemocratic force which it is legitimate to resist with British nationalist violence like that we saw so recently in George Square. It destroys our credibility amongst the very people whom we need on our side right now – that section of Scottish opinion which is neither convinced of the need for independence nor convinced of support for the UK. It is gob-smackingly stupid.
God knows I have mountains of disagreements with the SNP. The party has committed numerous errors in policy and in judgement. There are people who are more interested in briefing against their rivals within the party. There are rampant egos in the SNP that seriously need to get a grip of themselves. But the fact remains that Scotland’s only chance of independence remains through the ballot box and through the SNP.
Put it this way, if you are in despair your options are either to give the SNP one last chance, one more term in office in which it can deliver a referendum and deliver independence, or you really are throwing away any chance of independence for many years to come. You can either summon up any benefit of the doubt to give the SNP and allow them to prove you wrong, or you can have the certainty of knowing that we will not achieve independence until well into the 2030s if at all – a self-fulfilling prophecy that you will have helped to bring about.
To decide at this juncture that we must make it our priority to bring down the SNP, when we have majority support for independence and the SNP is on course to win a majority at the next Scottish elections on an explicit platform of demanding a referendum is to stare victory in the face and then throw it all away. When we start to attack the only party that can deliver a referendum, we are doing the Conservatives’ job for them and we are ensuring that there’s no chance at all of independence for a generation or more. Michael Gove will be loving it.
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Wee Ginger Dug 
When all’s said and done, there’s a growing perception that something’s not ‘right’ in the upper echelons.
To refuse to recognise and address that fact is patronising, and leaves a vacuum that is being filled.
Much of the blogpost is shooting messengers; the SNP are in a position to fix this, but choose not to. That in itself should be a cause for concern.
No, this blogpost is demanding that critics provide an alternative plan that’s realistic. Something which they have so far failed to do.
On that exact point I failed to get an answer from the Wings team. I was told many, many times what they didn’t want but not once did I receive a credible alternative.
When you loose the ground hard won over many decades you do not “bounce back” at the next election. In fact it may end any chance of attaining Independence.
I also have plenty of issues with the parties behaviour. However a division now is akin to giving up on the future of our children.
If a fraction of the energy “wingers” put into attacking the SNP was put into attacking Unionists we would be home and try.
Cross the line together – If you don’t like the SNP after Independence then kick them out.
Independence First. We do not get to do anything else for Scotland until that line is crossed.
Paul,
I am an admirer of your work and have the utmost respect for your efforts in support and pursuit of The Cause.
I agree that we must vote SNP at the next election and do so in both ballots. There are many reasons for this but the most important are that you maximise unity, maximise the popular vote (in both Constituency and Regional List) and give an unambiguous message of support for the party that has been for Independence for the best party of a century.
However, I do part company with you regarding Section 30. The Holyrood mandate of 2016 was refused by May in 2017 (“now is not the time”) and again by Johnson in 2020 (“No!”) after the Westminster 2019 election. This was despite the “material change in circumstance” manifesto commitment in the former campaign and the issue of Independence being front and centre in the UK general election campaign of nine months ago. The SNP won by a landslide each time.
We have a legitimate Parliament in Holyrood that represents all of Scotland and only its residents. That parliament has already voted in favour of a referendum. The Westminster Parliament has 91% non-Scotland representation yet they continue to hold a veto over our country’s self-determination. We should expect them to do the same in the future. We are generally a law-abiding people but Westminster should not be in control of our destiny. By continuing to request Westminster’s permission we are tacitly accepting that they do.
I am not a fan of unilaterally declaring Independence without the support of the people. However, I do think that we should simply hold the vote in Holyrood (again) to suspend the Union pending a popular plebiscite. The endorsement of a subsequent confirmatory (and binding) referendum would restore full self-government to Scotland. So not UDI but a fully democratic process with engagement and backing of both Scotland’s political representatives and its people.
You know, maybe it might come to that. There is a process that we must go through first, and that starts with a demand for a Section 30 order being in the SNP’s manifesto. Give them an overwhelming majority in the next Scottish elections specifically on that demand and defy Westimister to refuse to agree to that democratically expressed will of the people of Scotland.
Will they, won’t they?
Well, who cares because there will be increased anger in Scotland if that demand is refused and then further measures are possible with the support of the people who are being denied their democratic rights. That is not a Plan B, it is still Plan A. There can only be one plan and it is the road that leads to Independence. We are on that road now.
Seriously Alex, a mandate to ask for a Section 30?
I have got to believe you are joking.
I think Craig Murray’s plan, based on multiple successful seccessions from the British Empire is the way to go. I too agree with duncanio – you do great work- but I fear the SNP movement has been infiltrated by those who do not wish the movement well. British Intelligence did this in many, many countries to throw dissension and strife into otherwise goodstanding freedom/independence movements. So why think it wouldn’t happen here? The trick is how close do they get to the leadership, or how they influence it. Other issues aside from Independence are distractions.
Craig Murray’s plan has no hope in hell of succeeding unless it is preceded by a) a demand for a Section 30 order which is refused, and b) a clear and unambiguous vote from the people of Scotland (whether that’s a plebiscite election or a referendum without a Section 30 order) which proves beyond any doubt that a majority of people in this country want independence. “Just declaring independence as soon as possible” is a recipe for a Catalonia type of situation.
Excellent article Paul. In complete agreement with you.
On the subject of realistic plans, maybe you can explain what is realistic about being absolutely committed to the Section 30 process. Maybe, after years of asking, you’ll be the one who will attempt to explain how that process can possibly work.
But I doubt it. You’re far too busy misrepresenting those of us who see the Section 30 process for the British state’s deadfall trap that it is. Too busy cobbling together straw men about a “macho fantasy of Scotland’s struggle for independence, skipping vital democratic steps” to address what is actually being said.
While you busy yourself with accusing others of putting Scotland’s cause at risk that cause has already been brought to a parlous state by those you defend. You fabricate ludicrous conspiracies to “bring down the SNP” rather than address the perfectly valid criticism and concerns of those who have watched in growing despair as the fight to restore Scotland’s independence was driven down a blind alley, parked and abandoned by the very people we elected primarily to pursue that objective.
Don’t give me that crap about the polls showing record levels of support for independence. I am not stupid! I see perfectly well that there is nothing connecting that public support to the formal democratic process. There is no means in place or in prospect by which that support might be translated into an expression of the democratic will of Scotland’s people.
Putting that means in place is what we elect SNP governments for. It is what we expect them to do. It is what we ALL should be demanding that they do. But you are too busy shielding them from the frustration and anger that their failure has engendered.
What will you do when that anger reaches such a pitch that even you are obliged to abandon hope of drowning it out with that pathetic ‘Wheesht for Indy’ drum?
When you can spare moment from your hectic schedule of denouncing the politically impure and trying to suppress the voice of dissent, reflect on this! It was that voice of dissent that brought Scotland’s cause to top of the political agenda. It was that voice of dissent that gave birth to the Yes movement. It is that voice of dissent which put the SNP where it is. The party responds to that voice with lies about what it is saying and dismissive orders to sit down and shut up at its peril!
…and the private shouts “ignore the General, follow me!”
A dozen privates not even in our Army are also screaming the same call.
Members of the SNP will resolve issues for the SNP.
Which seat are you standing in?
Do you also have a list Party?
It’s not about me. Don’t try to personalise this. You’re not even very good at it.
It’s always been about you and your great big ego. You’ve also been running Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP down for years now, trying to turn people against them, and then had the sheer audacity, more recently, to demand that everyone support them 🙄.
well said. You keep saying what I’m thinking!
Great minds think alike Mary 😀.
Julia, the General has already said there will be no “wildcat” referendum and has insisted that a Section 30 is imperative.
Has the General changed her opinion on this?
She did mention taking a different route in January Breastplate which Joanna Cherry lauded. Sorry I can’t find the Cherry video to that effect.
Petra,
It is quite clear that she has not changed tack if you bother to read the link that Alex Cross posted above.
You asked me to “keep up” on another comment but I would suggest you follow your own advice but to help you along I will post Nicola’s very own and pertinent words from Alex’s link;
She told MSPs that a new draft Bill will be drawn up setting out the timing and terms for a new independence referendum, as well as the question to be asked to voters if it is given the green light by Westminster.
The first minister added: “Then, at next year’s election, we will make the case for Scotland to become an independent country and seek a clear endorsement of Scotland’s right to choose our own future.”
I’m sorry I have to walk you through this but take note that Nicola still seeks permission.
So again Petra, keep up!
That statement means that she seeks an endorsement from the Scottish electorate.
Of course Paul, if given the green light by Westminster.
Nicola has been explicit about seeking Westminster’s permission, she has not been explicit about changing tack.
We can infer to our heart’s content what we like but unfortunately reality will win the day.
If Nicola does change tack as I think she should then we will be under no illusion when exactly that happens.
You’re always a little ray of sunshine Peter.
If you could get off that self-righteous high horse you’ve been occupying for the past god knows how many decades, you might just grasp that the point of a demand for a Section 30 order is to ensure that subsequent steps towards independence gain the required political and moral legitimacy in the eyes of the Scottish people and the international community. If a Section 30 order is to be refused it has to be proven to be refused. I don’t know what steps Sturgeon will take subsequent to that – there are plenty she could – but she’s not going to talk about them until after the fact. What I do know is that she’s well aware that if she does just shrug her shoulders and say “oh well we just need to keep asking” it’s all over for the SNP and for her career. You’re doing plenty of mischaracterisation of your own here.
But no, you’re far too busy bumping your gums about dissolving the Treaty of Union to engage with political realities. That’s your macho fantasy. You may not like that description but that’s precisely what it is. It’s a political nonsense bereft of any understanding of strategy in the real world we actually live in. I’m not in the business of making you feel good about your fantasies Peter. You’re clearly upset by it. Tough.
As for “misrepresenting” – have you seen social media of late? There are far too many supposed independence supporters who are spending all their time and energy attacking the SNP precisely at the point where we are on the cusp of ensuring that independence is the settled will of the people of Scotland. There are those who are investing their energies in new parties which have as much chance of success as you do of ever understanding someone else’s point of view. All that they are achieving is to weaken and damage the wider cause. Nothing that they are doing is likely to convert no voters to yes – and that and that alone is what is going to deliver independence. All it’s doing is to put undecided voters off because what they see is an unpleasant toxic shitshow of independence supporters attacking one another.
You can get back to your glorious self-righteous isolation now. I’ll get back to the serious business of making arguments that will actually bring people over to support the idea that Scotland needs its independence.
Achieving national independence is not easy. It’s certainly not helped when some people decide that the overriding priority is to weaken and undermine the one political force which is actually capable of delivering it. And it’s certainly not helped by people like you who long ago decided that he was the only person who was right and everyone else was wrong. You’re not part of a movement Peter, you’re a one man band.
Don’t presume to explain the Section 30 process to me, sonny. I understand the reality having never been taken in by the fantasy “gold standard” version peddled by preening, self-important dullards. (https://ihavequestions.scot/2019/07/30/section-30-is-not-scotlands-salvation/)
I am quite content for you to imagine I am a “one man band”. I don’t follow the mob. Unlike yourself, I’m not in it for the ‘likes’. And I won’t be silenced by ineffectual wee wannabe bullies like you and your ‘Wheesht for Indy’ sycophants.
Calling someone else a bully is pretty rich coming from you. It’s richly ironic that you’re complaining now about being told to wheesht for indy. I don’t recall you rushing to the defence of RISE in 2016 when its supporters were complaining that left wing indy supporters were being told to wheesht for indy.
You self evidently do need to have the Section 30 process explained to you as it’s apparent that you have no grasp at all of political strategy, “sonny”. Just as you have no grasp at all of manners.
Please! No ex British colony ever required a ‘Section 30’ for its independence, so what on earth makes you think Scotland requires to vault that particular hurdle imposed by the colonial power? A majority of Nationalist representatives elected to a colonial nation’s national assembly was sufficient to end British misrule anywhere, despite the latter’s grumbling and ongoing deceit. On that basis Scotland is already de facto independent, today, and has been for some years. What are the National Party elite waiting on – colonial pensions? Scotland, unlike most ex colonies, is also signatory to an international treaty (of Union) from which it may lawfully withdraw, much as any signatory party nation to any treaty may do, and more especially when the other signatory party is persistently dishonorable in its behaviour, and the treaty is no longer in its (Scotland’s) national interest. A majority of Scotland’s national representatives hold Scotland’s political sovereignty, no-one else, therefore it is they who are holding Scotland within the UK, and all under the red herring of this ‘Section 30’ nonsense.
Oh for gods sake can you not read? If you read and understand the article you’ll see that I am saying that I fully expect a Section 30 order to be refused. I am categorically not saying that we need a Section 30 order in order to achieve independence.
Paul,
That is exactly what Nicola has said, surely you can’t deny that?
She went further than that, she ruled out a “wildcat” referendum.
It is commendable that you have softened your position regarding a Section 30 since we last spoke, can or should we expect Nicola to do the same?
She has Breastplate. Keep up.
”Don’t personalise it ” claims Peter … then does just that himself in his puerile attack on the writer of this blog .
Does one detect a little whiff of jealousy in this ad hominem rant , Peter ?
Peter – You wrote in your blog, which you linked to: “So, to summarise – the purpose of Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998, is to afford the British Prime Minister the legal authority to unilaterally and arbitrarily alter the powers of the Scottish Parliament. So much for the ‘most powerful devolved parliament in the world”.
The Scotland Act 1998 is domestic legislation. The GFA is an international treaty. Both of these form part of The UKs Constitution. Where there is conflict in the constitution, Laws which relate to an international treaty take precedence.
S30, is therefore “required” to initiate the process of Indyref II. Consent can not be unreasonably withheld if the referendum is not repeated within 7 years and support for that referendum can be clearly demonstrated. Therefore a refusal could be reversed with judicial review.
Well, that’s my opinion. Mr Keating’s case may make things crystal clear, or, may not. We’ll see.
Your fallacy is right there at the start. No-one is “committed to the S30 process” in the permanently-stalled sense you evidently mean. All that is being done – and must be done – is testing it in full public view. Either it will deliver per precedent as it properly should, or it will be demonstrated to be an abject failure, in which case other avenues will be validated both to the people of Scotland and also to the world at large. The only people who seem to think that the S30 process is a bust flush with no consequence are impatient or reckless people with strategic myopia. (All this “Plan X” nonsense, as if it’s a menu choice from a kiddies book of indy plans.)
You may yourself be sure which outcome is certain, and I may have my suspicions, but it has to be demonstrated to the many of our fellow citizens who are as yet unconvinced, and need to be.
Then we move on. Together as a people, as we must if we are to succeed.
When you choose wrongly
Don’t continue to advocate your choice long after it’s been sunk
Alternative:
Sort the governance of the SNP.
There is something seriously wrong in the SNP NEC.
We, the members, have taken our eye off the ball.
We have taken too much on trust and failed to check details.
This can be put right if we address the NEC problem by being more careful in our choice of NEC members at the conference next month.
There must be a review of unconstitutional NEC decisions and conflicts of interest. Where appropriate, resignations must follow.
Controversial policies that distract from independence must be ditched until independence, irrespective of their merits. This is not the time to expend political capital on non-independence issues.
If we carry this baggage into the election or an independence vote it will be easily weaponised against independence -particularly among women and those who have a strong belief in free speech.
Note: I have been careful to say nothing about the merits or otherwise of these controversial policies.
It may be quiet ‘in the real world’ now but the British want to save this for later.
They will make sure that it will not simply fade away.
We have a choice; either put our house in order now or face this mid campaign.
Aye!
You and all of us will be very lucky if the Dear Leader and her texting Hubby will even allow a SNP Conference next month, for fear of facing the music and being obliged to reform the NEC. That likely prorogation in itself should give the WGD pause for further thought.
This is not a case of impatient juveniles, lacking the mature wisdom of WGD, hacking away at the SNP and so destroying our best vehicle to attain independence. The SNP qua party is just fine; it has a lot more ballast other than the Murrell household and will right itself in short order when they are, or at least he is, removed. The leadership is the problem, but WGD is vilifying those who point this out as SNP destroyers.
WGD, I notice some welcome trimming of sail; you begin to understand that the Murrell clique (claque) have no appetite to really take on the British State, although you are not quite ready yet to say so. Nicola in particular is much preoccupied with managing the fall out from the Alex Salmond fit-up scandal that shows no sign of abating; protecting her über-gradualist acolytes (I still cannot believe a gone-native Jock like Pete Wishart actually announced his intention last year to become Speaker of the HoC !!); promoting her downright weird gender policy obsessions; generally staying in power. Independence comes pretty far down the list, from what we observe.
Why for instance not a word yet from her on the truly scandalous Internal Market Bill with its devastating impact on Holyrood’s powers? How can any FM truly dedicated to Scotland’s interests stay silent? By now Alex Salmond would have laid down a stern warning that the day this abomination becomes law, all SNP MPs will be called back to Scotland permanently, to participate in a Constitutional Convention, along with the other elected delegates of the Scots: MSPs, ex-MEPs, representative Councillors, delegates from the Islands etc. Nothing stops us debating what constitution an Independent Scotland should have? That doesn’t pre-empt other avenues. Why zero action? Why is she like a limp noodle?
The problem, WGD, lies in the careerist, managerial SNP leadership who regard those who truly want independence as irritating oiks, to be shunned or outright traduced and disarmed. Her mantelpiece is full of mandates but she simply has no stomach for the confrontation that will inevitably come. WGD, you’re beginning to see the light but you are not quite there yet!
”The SNP qua party is just fine; it has a lot more ballast other than the Murrell household and will right itself in short order when they are, or at least he is, removed.”
There’s an investigation in progress and when the Court rules that particular documents can be released, and that includes from Alex Salmond, we’ll have a better idea of what’s been going on. People demanded, rightly, that Alex Salmond should be considered to be innocent until proven guilty but here you are, hypocritically and unfairly, having condemned people totally out of hand.
”How can any FM truly dedicated to Scotland’s interests stay silent?”
Let’s see what happens tomorrow.
As to what Alex would do. Just as you make assumptions about Nicola Sturgeon and her husband you also postulate on what Alex would be doing right now. You don’t know what Alex would do at all, for example like me did you think that he was squeaky clean to find out that he was not: Fact. I’m totally scunnered with all of this I know what everyone has been up to, I know what they are thinking about and what they will do. It’s all bl**dy guesswork on your part and the last thing that we need, imo, when Scotland is facing the greatest of unprecedented perils in over 300 years.
Where exactly is this “growing perception” you speak of? Is it of any relevance when the silent majority are turning in great numbers to support the SNP and in turn the idea of Independence.
Who is filling the vacuum you speak of, where is this vacuum?
All I can see is increasing support for the SNP, you must be tuned into a different channel from me.
There is the problem. All you can see! Try looking behind the polls. Try looking beyond the rhetoric. There’s nothing there! It’s hollow! The rhetoric doesn’t lead anywhere and the polls aren’t connected to anything. Wake the fuck up before it’s too late!
I can’t wait to hear Nicola Sturgeon announce a date for Indyref2 if for no other reason to get shot of people like you, Peter, or at least shut you up. You’ve done nought to promote the Independence cause rather, in fact, have been totally detrimental. What a legacy, eh?
I fear you shall have along wait.
Peter – “There is the problem. All you can see! Try looking behind the polls”.
Well, if the polls are wrong… nobody’s plan A,B,C or D is gonna work. Not even Baldric’s cunning plan, because the Scots don’t want independence at all.
This is first-class stuff from WGD, because it opens up the debate, but it doesn’t deal with the problem that the SNP leadership does not in fact want a referendum. As Paul’s analysis stands at the moment, the SNP manifesto will say “we will *demand* a referendum”, and they’ll *demand* one, and Johnson will say No, and the SNP will say, Sorry, lads and lassies, next time…
We need to put the SNP leadership on the spot. We need there to be, in the manifesto, a concrete and verifiable commitment to some course of action that challenges the UK government. A statement that ‘We will hold a referendum on this named date’ (and contingency plans to prevent it being cancelled by Covid) would do it. But it must be concrete and verifiable. And such a statement in the manifesto would be the price of our vote. No commitment, no vote, and a change of leadership.
I don’t see the leadership moving for anything less than this. (And by the way, Paul, I don’t say we need to scrap the whole party and start again: that’s an unjust accusation on your part. I say we need to change its leadership and its direction.) If they move, we’re back on track. And if they don’t, we’ve lost nothing.
I know you believe that the SNP leadership doesn’t really want a referendum. You’re wrong. The SNP leadership doesn’t want a referendum that it’s going to lose. That’s a very different proposition.
No, I’m not wrong. I’m right. And of course, it doesn’t want a referendum that it’s going to lose either.
I saw your list of reasons Derek. I replied to them on the previous thread. They’re either specious, suppositions on your part, or are have other more plausible explanations. You don’t have a smoking gun, you don’t even have remotely convincing circumstantial evidence to prove your contention that the SNP doesn’t want independence.
I didn’t see your reply on the other thread until now. It’s much more informative – although I still don’t agree with it – and merits more extensive discussion than is appropriate here. I’ll post that on anohter site, or maybe privately to you, and put a summary here.
Naaa, let’s not bother.
Derek I’ve already spent far more time on this than it warrants. I really have no interest in continuing this discussion with you. You’ve already made your mind up. That’s fine. I still think it’s a nonsense.
Telt! But will you listen? Why do I think you won’t? 🙂
“The SNP leadership doesn’t want a referendum that it’s going to lose.”
Aye…no point calling it if you are going to lose it.
Then explain the process by which the leadership hopes to take the cause from where it is now – stuck in a dead-end alley – to a free and fair referendum that is even capable of being won. Explain it step by step. But if the first step is a request for a Section 30 order then forget it! Because you just stepped off a precipice while shouting at those trying to warn you to shut up. What kind of fool does that?
Oh I see – I’m in the wrong because I’m not listening you when you’re telling me to shut up, but you’re the one who’s maligned because you won’t be told to “wheesht for indy”. I see how it works for you now Peter. Hypocrisy much?
You just told me in your last post to “wake the fuck up” you’re the dinosaur here and who do you think you are that that gives you the right to warn the WGD to shut up on his own blog?
Or else what? That make’s you a bam, throwing your weight around in an attempt to bully others.
I think your ego has been bruised by your failing blog and the success of WGD in comparison, your views will be proven to have been wrong. I would like you to “shut up” and as you told me you need to “wake the fuck up” to the damage that your expression of fake outrage and bile can do. Away and drown in your own despair, you are really quite irrelevant in the scheme of things.
Only in your own head are you Gods gift to Indy blogging LOL. Get real you fanny.
Support for independence rose from 45% at Indyref 2014 to 55% and climbingnow.
Quite a dead end, that.
“A statement that ‘We will hold a referendum on this named date’”
Weren’t you paying attention when the FM announced she would produce a draft bill giving the question to be asked in a referendum, the timing of that referendum, and the terms of that referendum before the conclusion of this parliamentary term?
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-referendum-bill_uk_5f4e5469c5b6cf66b2bd7936
Yes, I was paying attention. But I want to see it in the manifesto. £50 that it won’t be there?
Excellent, one of their better songs.
That’s £50 that the date of the referendum won’t be in the manifesto.
I’m not going to facilitate childish betting. So forget about it.
Give your spare cash to charity, plenty people need it thanks to UK EngGov austerity with bells on!!!
Under normal circumstances, I would be very, very surprised. The point of drafting the bill before the election is so that a vote for the SNP is implicitly a vote for the bill. It would therefore be remarkably stupid not to place passing the bill as a manifesto commitment as it would weaken their case.
On the question of a specific firm date… well right now there’s a fair chance any future plans are going to be written with maximum flexibility, given that we have no effing idea when the world’s going to get anywhere near “stable” again.
Another point, the membership of the SNP will choose its leader. Are you a member?
No, I resigned, which may not have been a wise move. Are you saying that party leaders don’t pay attention to election votes?
Glad to hear you have resigned, you obviously weren’t committed enough. We will manage fine without your defeatist attitude. Is it your intention now to attack the leadership of the party that you were formerly a member of relentlessly? Is that out of spite or just because you don’t agree with them?
In fact, I’d like all those that don’t believe the SNP will lead us to Independence to leave.
Why there are any left with that view still in the party beats me, as they obviously don’t believe in the party why are they still there? So maybe best they go and form a new Independence supporting party and win some list seats.
Wouldn’t you agree?
Oh, the “spite-ists”. They were going to help out the SNP via the list, but now they spend all their time and energy demanding that “Nicola must go”. Even though they’re no longer members, if they even were. Duh. And they don’t even have a leader of their own whom any normal voter knows from Adam. Roll on next May, not only to take a big step forward with the SNP (warts and all), but also to see these useful-idiot splittists get the electoral verdict they already clearly anticipate.
From where did you get your long-distance mind-reading crystal ball? I could use one of them.
On second thoughts, never mind. Yours appears to be seriously defective.
Disrupting the leadership of the SNP right on the cusp of the most important election in years, all on the urging of a miniscule unrepresentative minority of malcontents who have no coherent plan themselves, just grumbles, would be a recipe for snatching disaster from the jaws of victory.
And that’s so staringly obvious there’s no need of a crystal ball. Just a modicum of common sense. As is Paul’s article from start to finish.
Please tell me what the SNP will do after this election to further independence. Base your answer on their track record since 2014.
That’s a nonsensical way to frame a question. “Base your argument on the response to a particular set of circumstances on the response to an entirely different set of circumstances.”
OK. Base your answer on whatever you deem appropriate. But tell me what the SNP will do after this election to achieve independence.
I’ve already spelled out a number of plausible routes. That’s the entire point the piece above. I do not possess the power of mind reading so can’t tell you which one the first minister will choose.
That’s the problem, Paul, there’s a limited supply of crystal balls, and they’re all in the hands of the refuseniks. If they would only stop staring into them and instead read plain good sense as encapsulated in articles such as this one. But then their interest doesn’t seem to be particularly devoted to actual understanding. Blind faith in negativity conquers all.
Growing perception ?
I don’t think so
And as usual the smallish number of people saying this provide no proof
You have a gut feeling
Fair enough
We are all a bit nervous about what’s ahead
But pulling the rug beneath the feat of the people you want to get you there is plain daft
There is “something not right” in every political party. Without over 50% of the population on board for Independence, the SNP do not have a mandate to declare UDI and calling a snap Referendum will be decried as not being the will of the people. The thing that scares me the most is what do you do once this infernal Internal Market is passed and we cannot resort to the courts. In the meantime the SNP are our political wing and only through them will we get independence. They are confronting the reality every day whilst we have the luxury of “knowing it all” from our armchairs.
Leave the accusations etc. for the day after we achieve our Independence and make your feelings known by how you vote in the subsequent election.
“The thing that scares me the most is what do you do once this infernal Internal Market is passed and we cannot resort to the courts.”
Resort to the Court of Session anyway, and see if it has the backbone to defend its privileges as laid down in the Treaty of Union, and thereby trigger a serious constitutional crisis?
That could itself lead to something interesting…
It is already being challenged by lawyers in Court by all quarters. Against Brexit. The Tories are acting illegally having their decisions challenged in Court, frequently. Having to back down every time. The Tories losing ground and support. The Tories are going down big time. The incredible mess and shambles. A rumble.
SNP/SNP/Independence all the way. To get out of the complete Tory mess and shambles. It is obvious. The majority know it. They just have to vote for it.
Reblogged this on Ramblings of a now 60+ Female and commented:
Common sense and hope as always, Paul.
Not how I read it, but that’s neither here nor there.
It does still leave the question hanging of why there are these critics, and why the SNP seem unwilling to address at least some of the questions raised.
As much as critics can ‘put up or shut up’, then the SNP leadership can recognise that the criticism – however unjust they think it is – exists and do something to address it. It’s not beneath them to do so,
I have no skin in this game; I’m Scottish but no longer elegible to vote. I’m saying what I see
The fact this situation has arisen in the first place is a failure of leadership within the SNP. I have always said that they should be doing more to reassure the grassroots. However throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not a productive way to deal with things.
Is sticking with a leadership that has failed the grassroots a good strategy? Have the lessons been learned to stop it happening again? If they’re refusing to engage and address problems – one that you yourself see – I would have some doubts whether anything has changed.
Recognising failure and acting to resolve – at least in business – is good management; hoping an issue ‘goes away’ (I look at the current harassement enquiry), less so.
The fact is that the current leadership has been successful in some very important respects – it’s been successful in bringing about a Scotland where there is majority support for independence and where most people believe that Scotland is perfectly able to deal with an international crisis of the magnitude of the current pandemic. Those are not achievements to be sniffed at.
Where the SNP leadership has failed is to successfully maintain trust with sections of the independence movement, however polling evidence strongly suggests that those sections of the movment are confined to social media and are electorally insignificant.
The increase in support for independence has been brought about almost entirely by the sheer scale of incompetence of Westminster. That support for independence, even under such unique circumstances, is only around 53/54% is down to the lack of commitment from the SNP’s leadership. Voters are not taking them seriously. Do they act as a Governement in waiting? What actions have the SNP leadership taken to address the biggest reason for lack of overall support for independence, namely the 60+ age group, which is still at the level it was in 2014. Others are doing some fine heavy lifting but without commited leadership and support from the SNP, the end result is a feeling of a lack of seriousness on the part of the SNP leadership. That’s hardly surprising considering that blocking Joanna Cherry from even contesting a seat in Scotland, when her proven legal skills are exactly is what is needed right now, stinks of a power game by NS/PM.
As for the pandemic management, the excess deaths rate per million for Scotland & England are close at 915 / 996 and much higher than comparable countries – Sweden 550, Germany – 147.
https://voxeu.org/article/us-excess-mortality-rate-covid-19-substantially-worse-europe-s
The problem isn’t the SNP party, it’s the current SNP leadership. A change of leadership isn’t creating a new party, it’d be taking it back to what is was six years ago and it’s fundamental and commited goal of independence. It’s the current SNP organisation and specifically it’s leadership that’s an aberation, not the SNP party itself. Actions speak louder than words and their actions speak for themselves, loud and clear. But it has nothing to do with independence. That’s the problem.
https://archive.is/mvF2K
Quite the reverse, it’s the perception amongst the Scottish public that the Scottish Govt has handled the pandemic competently which has produced the rise in support. Claiming that support would be even higher if only XYZ is an unfalsifiable proposition. It cannot be proven, and it can’t be substantiated either.
Here you are trotting out British nationalist talking points. Scotland’s management of the pandemic can only be compared to England’s since it’s the Conservative govt in Westminster which controls the financial and economic powers which are needed to develop a response to the pandemic.
Deciding that right now is a good time to start a civil war within the SNP is a recipe for failure.
”A change of leadership isn’t creating a new party, it’d be taking it back to what is was six years ago and it’s fundamental and commited goal of independence.”
It’s all very well for people to keep squealing ”get rid of Nicola Sturgeon”, but who do you suggest should take over from her, Ian? It seems that no one has even considered this issue, as far as I can see.
I imagine at least some of those who want to “get rid of Nicola Sturgeon” imagine that they see the perfect replacement every time they look in a mirror?
You talk of failure but I see the complete opposite. If Scotland is to become an Independent country then it needs the backing of the ma=jority of the people who live in Scotland and that is what we did not have in 2014 so we lost.
It is only now that the majority are expressing their wish for Scotland to become an Independent country, that has happened under the leadership of the SNP whether you like it or now.
That is not a failure of the grassroots, it is a success. Unless your point is purely ideological because you disagree with the SNP leadership of course. Maybe that’s what you were trying to say. SNP BAD. Get back in the queue there are plenty saying the same well in front of you.
1971Thistle
You are obviously a jags supporter.
Where’s your faith?
John Lambie would give you are kickin and Bertie Auld …..
Everyone has critics
There’s no need to answer critics on WOS they answer their own questions
Saying what you see from some far off place ?
The thing is may I suggest you are are only saying what you read
Don’t be led by the propaganda
The entire narrative around the need for serial investigations and subsequent purges is being pursued with vigour by those within the movement who cannot reconcile purity with purpose. It is I have long suspected driven by the security services and their various friends and fellow travellers. The common answer to any pragmatic warning such as yours is that we need to be sure that our leaders are pure and the party transparently driven. Woke has become synonymous with outsiders and the ongoing damage the agent provocateurs are doing aided and abetted by some within the movement is growing. It remains the case that this is right out of the CIA/MI5 playbook.
No person is pure
So no leader is ever going to be pure
I understand what you have said in your post. I understand the rationale..to a degree. What I agree with on is that the SNP haven’t got things right all the time. Yup. There handling of the MSM has been pitiful, subservient and disrespectful to the name of Scotland.
When you, and others advocate the waiting for the section 20 order to be continually denied..when do you feel is a time where you say is “Enough”?
If you’ve read the article, you should have realised that only one denial is enough to legitimise a subsequent step. I’m not sure where you’re getting the “continual” from. We only need Johnson to refuse a demand for a Section 30 order following a Scottish election just the once in order for the Scottish public and the international community to accept the legitimacy and the need for alternative democratic action.
I do wonder if NS has holed that below the waterline. Her decision (in my opinion, deeply unwise) to place indépendance on the back burner until the economic effects of COVID unwind, make it very easy for any UK PM to say “At some point in the future, but now is not the time – as the FM will agree.” No S30 refusal, but an open-ended opportunity to delay.
I understand the COVID thing plays well, but that was not ideal.
If I were NS, I would create a COVID champion within the cabinet to lead ASAP. As party leader, her job must be to be the face of the election campaign. If she remains the ‘face’ of COVID, she will be criticised for taking her eye off the ball for ‘electioneering’; it’s a burden the opposition don’t have.
You have this arse over tit, frankly. It is precisely because Nicola is being seen to lead the country through a serious crisis in such a professional and convincing manner that at last there is a majority for independence. People can see that with even the very limited autonomy we already possess, our government can function sensibly and effectively, and do so better than the UKGov, our previously assumed “betters”. Furthermore, her success is in part driven by a public appreciation that (unlike Trump in the US and the Tories here) she is doing so following the best available advice and deliberately choosing not to politicise it for her own narrow ends. That’s PR Gold.
Funny how we are seeing a barrage of supposed supporters who all mysteriously desperate to urge us to do the very thing that the Tories want, to decapitate the SNP when they are on the verge of a historic win next May. Stupidly self-defeating or something else entirely..?
Something else entirely. Bacon rolls.
Sorry, I think you’ll find I don’t have this arse over tit. Just give it a wee bit of strategic thinking is required.
If you really think she’s not been politicising this, then you’re utterly naive.I fully believe she has, and that she was right to do so; she positioned herself against Boris and came out smelling of roses – a good job well done; As you well note, it’s done her profile no harm – but that’s coincidental, not political? Spare me.
She has tied herself – and her reputation- firmly to the mast of COVID – fine. I’m sure she’s enjoying what the polling tells her, but knowing when to move on is important.
There’s an election coming, and by saying “I need to run the COVID “, she eliminates herself from leading the party in an election campaign. Her opponents will have her for toast if COVID’s still an issue come election time and she changes horses. It would be an utter PR disaster.
Her job is to LEAD the party (ultimately to indépendance). She can’t do that and run the COVID repárense. However, she needs to – very quickly – pass the baton. If she can’t find anyone capable to delegate to within her cabinet, that’s a serious concern. It smacks of a lack of talent, a lack of trust or a fear of being outshone.
She’s the leader of the SNP; leaders find the talent and make the best of it. That’s not what she’s doing.
Zero skin in the game; just see some clear – understandable – errors
You have the strategic insight of an amoeba, but you’re not stupid, which is an interesting dissonance. And delivered bright and early from down south, presumably. For someone who supposedly doesn’t have any “skin in the game”, you’re ‘strordinarily keen to help us out. But we can see you coming. We know whom we trust, who has our best interests at heart, and it ain’t you.
There’s another website where you will feel quite at home, but then it is crowded full of empty-headed moaners who are not taken seriously by the indy movement, which doesn’t suit your purposes, I suppose.
Here’s another Paronimia Android “delivered bright and early from down south” – do you hear yourself? Jeez.
Actually from over the North Sea, but you have your wee paranoid fantasy. I live and work in Belgium, Scottish born and bred FWIW. Apologies for sharing my opinion. I might have no skin in the game but I can worry about what’s going down in the country; I still have family there
It’s fine to disagree – but you don’t have to assume that everyone that does is out to get you from ‘down south’. That way lies the padded cell.
As for the communications strategy thing, don’t tell my clients I’ve been winging it for 20+ years. They haven’t noticed – it’s only you.
So if I’m hearing you right, your complaint isn’t that she’s doing a bad job over COVID, but that she’s doing a good job over COVID for political purposes…?
This reminds me a little of that time Baron Foulkes of Cumnock complained that the SNP were deliberately serving the public better than the Westminster government “deliberately”…
Good grief. Have you not heard the accolades for her handling of the pandemic from all over the world. This virus cannot be controlled just because you want it – she has introduced the measures that should have worked but we have a section of the community who are just downright brainless. But more than this she has treated us like adults, she has also great compassion and to be frank she just makes you feel better. I have lost count of the people who have praised her and said “thank goodness for Nicola” or “I will wait to see what Nicola says”. So leave all the machinations to that bunch in WM who are the reason thousands are turning to the idea of Independence. They are doing a great job. Oh and BTW, she has not had to position herself against Boris, he is doing a fine job of showing how incompetent he is himself.
Read what I wrote – the words and stuff. Put aside your kneejerk reaction that there is only one true way and read it
I didn’t say she had done a bad job – i said it’s NOT her job. She’s leader of the SNP, not leader of a crisis team. Leaders pick talent and delegate to it; they don’t accumulate jobs and acodales
What if there’s another problem – I dunno, the internal market legislation – will she front up on that too? At the same time as the election campaign?
It paints her into a corner, and her advisors need to tell her that.
”Her job is to LEAD the party (ultimately to indépendance). She can’t do that and run the COVID repárense.”
Oh really 1971Thistle? She led the party following Alex Salmond’s failed Indyref1 attempt (when he then bailed out and left her to it), Brexit, through further numerous challenging issues (too many to mention on here) and of course this Covid crisis. She’s basically working her backside off for us 24×7. I wouldn’t underestimate her capabilities if I were you. It would also seem that outside of the wee Scottish social media bubble that she’s actually held in high regard worldwide.
‘Nicola Sturgeon listed as one of world’s most eloquent leaders.’
”Nicola Sturgeon has made it into the top five of a new list of the world’s most eloquent leaders.”..
..”Three of the leaders named in the top five are women – with German Chancellor Angela Merkel named as the second most eloquent leader, ahead of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in third place and Canada’s Justin Trudeau, who was ranked fourth.”
http://www.thenational.scot/news/18617162.nicola-sturgeon-listed-one-worlds-eloquent-leaders/
I’m not sure saying that NS is deliberately choosing not to politicise COVID situation, then saying her actions are PR gold really sit well together.
You’ve changed your name from 1971Thistle to 197iThistle in less than an hour. Just a typo LOL
Fingers thicker than my skull, and that’s saying something. Where’s autofill when you need it (for once)?
Looks like you might also have changed your ip address between 5pm and 5.03pm as the wee coloured thingy changed too.
Difficult to type an i instead of a 1 on a UK keyboard. Are you a real person LOL
Probably, but a robot all the same
Another curtain twitcher
Oh for FFS; maybe you should change your handle to Marvin the Paranoid Android. “He disagrees, he must be a spy/saboteur!”
“Look, he’s changed his IP address, we have him bang ro rights”. If it’s changed, I’ll take your word for it.
I use the same handle on every other fucking Indy forum; only this one are the fucking terminally paranoid out and about.
Covid is here and now
So of course Indy campaigning is back burner
You can’t get Indy without campaigning
Why change your nom de plume 1971 to 197i?
The First Minister will make her own mind up. She has shown leadership. Why change? Who would benefit? Oops I know.
It was probably just a brain fart. God knows I’ve done far worse.
As long as you cleaned up afterwards…….
“We only need Johnson to refuse a demand for a Section 30 order following a Scottish election just the once in order for the Scottish public and the international community to accept the legitimacy and the need for alternative democratic action.”
He’s done that once already. So has May. Nothing happened.
”There handling of the MSM has been pitiful, subservient and disrespectful to the name of Scotland.”
You should think of listening to the Dugcast with Lesley Riddoch, Dave.
You say that WM wont be able to refuse then go on to say that they wont be able to refuse if we win another mandate. We have had mandates and they have refused, quite explicitly and clearly stated that they wont agree to it in the future. Why are you convinced they will reconsider next time? As for the international community, what are they doing to support Catalonia? What if any agreements the UK make with EU include not getting involved in our domestic politics?
Eh that’s not what I’ve said at all. In fact what you seem to be saying is the exact opposite of what I’ve said above.
Catalonia is in a very different constitutional position from Scotland. Scotland has an internationally recognised right to pursue independence. The British state has already explicitly recognised that Scotland has the right to independence – that’s what the Edinburgh Agreement meant. Therefore if the same political conditions are created in Scotland which brought about the Edinburgh Agreement, and the British Govt then refuses to respect Scotland’s democratic choice to hold a referendum, the international community will accept that Scotland has a right to pursue independence by other means.
The above comments fail to understand the clear message, in the blog, that the SNP are the only route to independence, in the near future
What happens after independence will be decided by the people of Scotland only!
Everyone will then have the opportunity to vote for the government and policies they want
To miss this opportunity next year will mean decades before another chance appears
Get behind the SNP and stop doing the work of the Conservatives, for them!
[…] Wee Ginger Dug Throwing it all away If you really believe that the biggest enemy of the independence cause is the SNP […]
The problem I see is that people either attack Sturgeon for everything, or they defend her from everything. It’s one extreme of another.
But she isn’t perfect, she makes mistakes, she’s one of the few politicians who actually admists it, and if we can’t point them out so she can make amends, even apologise, who else will?
But make some fairly mild criticism and you’re accused of being a “yoon”. Well, in the words of the song “I don’t care” and “who wants to fit in anyway?”, because I’m not in this to make friends in an echo chamber, I’m in it for Independence and for that it’s better to make friends with the undecided and even (current) NO voters.
But please WGD, keep this as a haven from the Sturgeon wars for non-participants, which is surely the absolutely vast majority of SNP suppoerters, let alone YES ones.
That’s what I am trying to do, however when segments of the independence movement start to loudly call for the SNP to be overthrown, it’s important that the rest of us have arguments and support.
I know, I read your article.
The problem is that anyone who disagrees or poijngts out errors gets blocked from a certain other place, so, bored out of their brackets repeating in rote “Sturgeon must go, the SNP is bad”, the roters are invading other spaces to try to get some discussion about their pet subject – which isn’t Independence any more.
“Klingons on the starboard bow”. “Wipe them off, Jim”.
Yeah I get that it pisses you off – imagine how I feel!
Indeed 🙂
It seems to have become a kind of cult. They have to proselytise, spread the True Religion.
But I don’t think it’s simply down to a mere curdling of impatience by some hotheads. There appears to be a definite correlation between the rise in support for independence and the outbreak of this kind of superficially-irrational dissension. You might think it would be a very easy ask to give the SNP the full support needed to make a historic breakthrough next May, just a few months away now, but it seems to be the very reverse. The nearer we get to the election, the more these people of whom we have never heard before pop up to respond to very level-headed articles like this one by Paul to try to negate them. This is not accidental.
Latest, YouGov, Scottish sub-sample (140) just released (field work 23rd – 24th Sept.)
Con 21%, Lab 22%, LibDem 4%, SNP 46%, Brexit Party 2% (some loonies just don’t give up!), Greens 3%, Other 2%.
This is the lowest figure for the SNP for a while. Who are the Others? ISP? A putative Wings Party?
I agree with the sentiment of the article. Those in doubt, resulting from the stench from Party HQ should hold their noses and stick the course. There’s only one vehicle that can realistically deliver Independence. Mundell, the “alphabet sisters” and the Wokoharam faction can be dealt with after we pass the finishing line.
Campbell and Murray (and I have a great deal of respect for Craig Murray) claim powers of prophesy that they don’t possess. If Sturgeon is going to demand a S30 order, then I trust her to take decisive action if it is denied (the alternative would split the Party and / or lead to her being ousted as leader).
As Paul so pertinently identifies, we ain’t up against geniuses here. 55% of folk support Indy and the only tactic the opposition can think of is to ramp up the Union Jackerie. If your message is toxic turning up the volume can only be counter productive.
Subsamples really can’t be relied on.
That’s true, but the 2% Other phenomenon is a recent and recurring aspect of YouGov sub-samples. The question of who are the “others” is a legitimate one. The list of named political parties is comprehensive (it includes the Brexit Party FFS). If the Others isn’t the ISP or putative Wings Party, then who are they? I’m on side here, a vote for “Others” really is a wasted vote (if it’s ISP).
The Scottish Socialists, Solidarity, Ukip still has a residue of support, George Galloway’s party, the BNP or whatever far right party the fascists support right now, the Women’s Equality Party, the Monster Raving Looney Party. There are plenty of alternatives other than the ISP or a putative Wings party.
If the SNP/SG continues to play by britnat Westminster’s rules Scotland will never regain its independence. Sooner or later [and it must be sooner or all momentum will be lost] the SNP/SG must defy Westminster’s anti-Scottish rules.
Meantime I believe the SNP/SG has nothing to lose and everything to gain by withdrawing all SNP MPs from the Westminster cesspit the day after England’s MPs drag Scotland out of the EU against its democratic will by these English MPs voting through their xenophobic britnat brexit.
I hope to see independence sometime soon, and as you say the SNP are part of the vehicle to achieve it, post independence, the SNP could very well self-destruct, so why not stay focused on the goal ? ignore the distractions
You’ve got more patience than I have Paul and I’m grateful for that. You have spelled out the rationale, whereas I just think stuff them because they are an irrelevant flea bite.
I don’t doubt that there are a number of people who think it’s clever to be publicly opposed to the SNP. The motives of the Brits amongst them are obvious and more helpful than unhelpful in my view. If they think they are doing a grand job promoting deceit then I am cool with that because I have no doubt that the populous is getting increasingly turned off by deceit, especially in these difficult times. The motives of those who lay claim to be committed to independence are another matter. They will be many and varied but I will not take them at face value and nor will I speculate about them. I will ignore them because it is their actions – that is, their public denunciations of the SNP – not their motives – that are important right now.
However, I am very definitely circumspect about it all. I don’t feel – and I use the word “feel” deliberately – that they have the power to derail Scotland’s independence. The more they huff and puff the more they will be viewed by the public as a collection of madcap extremists on the fringes of rational thinking. So, I’m not convinced that they are worthy of serious concern, though I admire your determination to respect them by appealing to their better judgement.
Perhaps surprisingly, I do actually think that their behaviour has a potential to be a positive in an obtuse sort of way. We all know that the Brits’ modus operandi is to be aggressive, insulting, threatening and generally nasty. I don’t think it does any harm at all for them to see that there’s an equal and opposite element in the independence movement.
That leaves the way open for the public to see even more clearly that the Scottish Government is the voice of reason; the voice that doesn’t degenerate to the the level of raw anger and emotion, even when times are tough and doesn’t bend to the will of those who make daft or unreasonable demands. That is exactly the kind of reassurance that the populace needs to get them behind “their” government – a government that is committed to Scotland’s independence. That is what has to happen for us to succeed. The populace have to find the confidence to believe in what the Scottish Government stands for or they will be too fearful to back independence.
The SNP putting the “extremists” in their proper place is a necessary part of the process. It’s a pest but I suppose it was an inevitable event. I am confident that Nicola will do it in the nicest possible way.
Let’s take it in our stride.
..”The more they huff and puff the more they will be viewed by the public as a collection of madcap extremists on the fringes of rational thinking.”
Spot on Arthur. Great post.
Arthur. How you can have confidence in Ms Sturgeon after the Alex Salmond debacle?
No political leader with any nous would have gotten that close to the stitch up!! Anyone with a working brain would have realised that in the event of AS being proved innocent she would be toast and her hubbie likewise because all roads appear to be leading to them.
If she handled the tricky lead-up to Indy Ref 2 in the same gormless way then it would be a disaster for the movement.
She is simply not a strategic political thinker but rather someone motivated by her personal belief system and therefore highly vulnerable to being manipulated by the British government and their agents (Leslie Evans).
Funny. You got no reply.
If you want to continue a “why is Sturgeon so bad” conversation, you’re in the wrong place.
Does that mean you’re being censored? I no longer care.
“She is simply not a strategic political thinker” {laugh – but in a mocking way}
Now I’ve heard it all.
Look in the mirror, Mr. Impatient. In the real universe as opposed to your weirdly inverted one, she is manifestly leagues ahead in that respect compared to the blinkered nit-picking of the useful-idiot zoomers (and the sneaky BritNat promoters behind them), who stamp their little feet and demand instant action with nothing – absolutely sweet FA – of an alternative to offer.
Mercifully, ordinary people – real voters – are increasingly beginning to see what you can’t, and thankfully there’s a lot more of them than empty rhetoric peddlers like you.
Let’s wait and see if there was a ”stitch up” and if there was, was Nicola Sturgeon actually involved. ”Appear” is not good enough. We’ve gone from she WAS involved (dropped now) to questioning when she became aware of the accusations that were made against Alex Salmond (the Cluedo article 😀). Sad to see so many people going along with the perpetual oscillating innuendo, rumours and gossip that’s being spewed out on a conveyor belt around-the-clock from some quarters.
Independence is not about the Independence I want or the Independence you want. It is about what the majority of the people living in Scotland want.
Right now, we do not get the government we voted for and that has been the case for decades. It is typical for Scotland’s voters to choose a totally different political party than the rest of the UK does and yet we have to be governed by them regardless of our wishes.
That is what has taken us out of the EU, that is what is responsible for the banking crisis and a decade of austerity. We did have some choices in certain ares because of devolution. We chose not to impose tuition fees on education of our young adults.
We choose not to force the elderly to sell their home to pay for care in some privately run care home. We chose not to tax the sick by making them pay for their medicine or do without if they couldn’t afford to pay.
That to me is what Independence is about, the right to chose a governemnt to represent the people fo Scotland every single time and not just now and again.
The right to pick a government that will prioritise the rights and needs of the people rather than dranconian measures such as Universal Credit and the Bedroom tax that impoverish them.
I really don’t care or give a toss about the SNP or the leadership or the GRA Bill or the Hate Crime Bill.
All of that is meaningless without the power to chose our own government, I only care about winning Indeoendence and whether you like it or not, the route to Independence is by supporting the SNP and giving them the power to fight on our behalf.
WGD said this before, this isn’t a sprint, it’s a marathon, it doesn’t matter when we cross the line only that we cross it in fist position. It’s not rocket science, we need the majority os Scots to want it. Let’s concentrate on building that support instead of arguing semantics.
I really should have proof read that before posting lol
I feel your pain Paul, you must be really pissed off with the naysayers and like, only now at this juncture do we have regular polling above 50% for a yes vote and that is down mainly Nicola and her impartial and professional daily briefings on COVID and that’s despite the continued anti-Scotland MSM. That other blog used to be the place to go, even contributed in the past but no longer, cant abide whats happened to it and wont be changing my mind re voting for the SNP to get us over the line.
Agreed. Every proper procedural step must be taken, without shortcuts, without assumptions, as no one has a crystal ball.
Things happen, unexpected things, good and bad, that can influence the outcome.
The Boris Johnsons of the world come and go. Political parties change over time, new generations replace old.
Stay the course, stick to the plan, one step at a time, and the entire world will support and celebrate Scottish independence.
It’s coming.
The days of empire and snobbery are drawing to a close.
Excellent synopsis, but colour me unsurprised that the first comment out of the starting blocks is precisely what you highlighted. Less than a minute from publication at a guess, users who have never been seen before or rarely comment suddenly get an adrenalin rush and an urge to contradict logic…
While those of us of a retired disposition were watching a dragonfly whilst enjoying a cold beer, the professionals were on a hair trigger, rather like HYS on the BBC Websites.
Cheers Paul, an excellent summary of the game afoot, brilliantly illustrated by the usual and unusual suspects…
Yes Bob, my thoughts also. It was too slick in timing to be some random reader. This one was primed and ready for action. And wasn’t alone.
👍 Yeah, noted the backups also.
Possibly the best article I have ever read on this blog.
It addresses directly and clearly the fear that many many people like me who are committed to independence have.
That a bunch of selfish self absorbed self important and self serving people on both sides of whatever side issue is more important than fighting for independence this bloody week will rip apart the only viable political vehicle we have capable of delivering it.
That people who have lost patience, when patience is our biggest requirement right now, will allow their anger at the SNP and it’s perceived slowness to blind them to the fact that we are as close as we have ever been to a real chance of winning, which can be destroyed at a stroke if these people are not prepared to accept the reality of what we need to do.
Well done Paul … a great article which says everything that needed to be said.
Couple of things, there are some in the SNP that need to distance themselves from social media, they are either baiting people or responding to being baited and then lose the plot. They need to grow up (one is closer to retirement than many on here), they are politician’s or prospective politician’s not just members of the public.
Those punting other parties seem to be oblivious to the fact Westminster will try and use this against a referendum, claiming only votes for the SNP count. It’s perfectly clear what they will do and how the media will push this agenda. They have let their personal agenda’s or grievances take precedence over independence.
You have visited this topic a few times Paul and you are correct. We need the SNP and we need to pass all of the democratic steps. UDI may in the end be required but not yet and not until we know that the majority of us do support self determination.
We have to remember that the SNP is a political party doing well when you look at the opposition. People play games in every organisation, that is life and is human. Utopia will never exist.
A vote that you will loose is crazy.
Paul, I said something very similar to your comments here on a Facebook page around ten days ago and have made up my mind even more, that I am, ‘Just a soldier’ in our battle for independence. No personal political ambitions, but willing to keep on fighting, until I can’t do it anymore. It’s the BEST I can do and I’ll settle for that, as long as it helps make my country free. Just wish our fellow nationalists would keep their eye on the prize and use the present time to prepare themselves/ourselves to be the best soldiers for independence we CAN BE!
A first class article that hits the nail right on the head.
Channel 4 yesterday reported that the Trump election campaign in 2016 ran a very sophisticated disengagement operation to dampen likely opposition voters. I’m beginning to think that what we’re seeing here now is a kind of amateurish equivalent. Getting online to reach those (especially younger) folks who are not reachable through the usual media propaganda outlets, and as above, if you can’t win them over, at least manage to get them not to cast their vote come next May.
There’s just too many pop-ups these days preternaturally keen to stoke disaffection and urge people to reject the only viable next step to furthering independence. They can’t all be that tactically inept.
A lot of good posts here in amongst the DRoss. All everyone need understand is that Independence must be the undisputed will of the Scottish people for it to be accepted. Not just by the International community but more importantly by the people of Scotland themselves.
We really don’t need a civil war, we can win this democratically and prove that it is the will of the people, then there can be no dispute whatsoever.
While keeping the current leadership guarrantees indy will never happen. Ever. SDo why is it indy supporters are your problemk now?
That’s unmitigated bollocks Eddie.
eddie put down the bottle now before you make a fool of yourself.
Oh, another disengagement pop-up. It’s getting so obvious. This one is pathetic, not even trying.
The convention that the UK parliament will ‘not normally’ legislate on devolved matters without consent is now almost a joke as they attempt to take control of all legislation.
I believe Mr Gove at the finance committee meeting has given assurances we can trust them not to break an agreement. Oink, oink, flap, flap, ooft.
These malcontents give out the stench of the classic Brit.security tactics emanating from their every pore,I am into to my seventh decade and have ALWAYS voted SNP, so WGD to not be distracted by this sad coterie of naysayers and just tell them to “Foxtrot Oscar”,cheers keep up the good work.
A word on the self righteous internet naysayers for the purity party
They’re liars and damned liars, because what they’re doing is exploiting the dead time that Covid has given them to subvert, it’s like a hobby for them, and one in particular, and we all know who that is, he even listed Subversive as his occupation for God sake
Now I don’t know most people, nobody does, it’s an expression people use when they want to make a point, but I do have a lot of life experience of *people* and I also have a doctorate on people behaviour that I never bang on about because it’s mostly irrelevant except on this occasion when it’s not
Most people wake up in the morning to begin their day with very little going on in their heads as they go about their morning rituals of tea or coffee toast or cigarette, and that take around 15 minutes before the human brain begins to formulate other things, if the first thing that enters a persons head is how can I go about destroying another human beings life which will lead to the destruction of a nations dream then there’s something seriously wrong with that person, and again we know who that is
The so called purity of party pointers out of things wrong, selfless little souls that they are only wanting what’s best for the rest of humanity they say by destroying something and insist that burning the village to save the town is the only way to save ourselves from future bad people, bad people of course being the ones designated by these purity people without consultation with the rest of us are dictatorial bullies in every way as bad as the Tories we’re trying to get away from
It’s the promise of the Disneyland politics we should be getting they say and the snow queen isn’t perfect, so all is lost we must divest ourselves of the evil that is the current snow queen and replace her with….. what, because they can’t and won’t answer that question because that question was never the point it’s the destruction that’s the whole of the motive
Don’t let these people try to sell us the notion of Disneyland politics because we none of us live in a fantasy world, we live in a world dominated by the same kind of people who scribble column after column up to three times a day of bitter divisive hate for their own personal reasons, don’t make those reasons yours, are you that person? did you think like that when you woke up this morning, well of course you bloody didn’t, normal people don’t
Right now Scotland has Nicola Sturgeon as FM and she to our luck is rated one of the best in the entire world at the moment so people like her don’t come along every day like David Cameron or Theresa May or Boris Johnson or Michael Gove or some head case on the Internet with delusions of grandeur and an ego so impossibly monstrous you couldn’t get it through anybody’s door who only last year was advocating she should do deals with the Tories and now claims she’s everything but a spy for intergalactic aliens on a mission pre invasion of earth to consume us to supplement their meat diet
Nicola Sturgeon is the FM, she has the job and she’s doing it with one hand tied behind her back, what she doesn’t need is this nonsense that some are falling for labeling conspiracy theories as more important than the job at hand
Kenny Dalgliesh nor Jimmy Johnson and Jim Baxter are waiting in the wings to come back on as a sub to do the job and save Scotland, it’s not going to happen, if you really want Independence for Scotland that’s where the focus should be, not on who whispered something to whom who told Ethel and Ethel told Barry, who the hell gives a shit about that, we’ve got a politician running our country not a freaking agony aunt, get off her back and concentrate on what we can do to help
Like she says on Covid, solidarity and we’ll win
Apologies for ranting Paul
Excellent rant Dr Jim. 🙂
That’s your best rant yet, Dr Jim 😀. Absolutely brilliant.
They screamed their conspiracy theories on Wings. They are blinded by hatred as developed as in any cult.
They discovered that all the rationale, sensible people moved elsewhere.
Now they arrive as dedicated missionary zealots to convert all non-believers that we must burn down the house to cleanse it.
What next? Heresay if you disagree.
Is this going to be the future of the movement – the Wings disciples turning up on blogs demanding we follow the true path of hatred.
We have heard over and over what you don’t want.
You destroyed one site now it is the chance of Independence. I won’t be blaming the SNP. The future of Scottish generations is threatened by blind destroyers.
Please go away and let us work for a positive outcome.
They achieved their goal – solely that of destroying a really good journalistic blog , it would not surprise me if some of the newcomers were not Scottish ‘journalists’ attempting revenge on the man who once pulled them up on every little lie and laziness.
Agreed. Some people in the Independence movement it seems are determined to undermine the hopes of victory in the next Scottish elections and more importantly in any future Independence referendum. When I hear talk about removing Nicola Sturgeon then all sense of reality has truly gone. To my view, without Nicola Sturgeon in place as FM no near future Independence victory will be forthcoming and Scotland will be firmly shackled to this horrible Union for the lifetimes of the majority of people reading this blog/article. History has taught us united we stand divided we fall. There are so many divisive voices out there within the Independence movement each seeking to influence others in whatever capacity they can. And it is a tragedy that sometimes one no longer recognises friend from foe. It is this “parcel of rogues” mentality that managed by hook or by crook to entangle Scotland up in the Union in the first place. From my point of view I have a simple vision it’s to be a citizen of an Independent and vibrant Scotland at all costs. So what if someone whispered in the corridors of power against someone else or someone sent an email to someone complaining about someone else. Let the SNP address this internally and not publicly as some members of the SNP have done. This is irrelevant, a sideshow to the narrative and the destination. An Independent Scotland will never be that utopian vision i.e. a place where people do no wrong and no crimes are ever committed that is not human. But it can be a vision of a modern and inclusive European country that should seek to do good in the world. And I hope it happens.
You are absolutely right, There are those that wish to divide us and really really wish the SNP to get rid of Nicola Sturgeon because she is the greatest threat to the Union. They know it and we know it. Ignore the bacon rolls telling you otherwise.
Paul, your article is “right on the money” …. we are so close to our goal of Independence that it would be lunacy to “blow it” with a Civil War within the SNP …. as a few Bloggers have stated ” snatch defeat from the jaws of Victory”.
Have there been mistakes & errors by the SNP in general and NS in particular ? …. yes and they have been documented (rightly so) … and Nicola has implemented polices which I struggle to get my head around ….. but by a Country Mile she has been the best Politician in Scotland.
As you stated, the SNP is the ONLY realistic vehicle available to achieve Independence for the foreseeable future and those who TRUELY believe in that goal must utilise it …. there can be “a night of the long knives” within the SNP after Independence is achieved.
It was always my belief that the SNP would fracture after Independence was achieved …. maybe not immediately but after the transition period giving stability to the reborn Scottish State.
I see that as the natural state of affairs …. giving birth to a left leaning, centrist & right leaning parties.
However at this moment we MUST keep the support for the SNP to achieve the common goal.
If Nicola reads your blog ….. and I’ve every reason to believe she does (or is briefed by a staffer) ….. then she must “set in stone” a manifesto commitment “that a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Referendum on Scottish Independence” ….. with a Section 30 Order … or without if denied. .
So
Step one
ask for S30 …Westminster refuse
Ask them again …they refuse..now is not the time
Ask them again …Westminster refuse again
Ask them again …Westminster refuse again
Step 2
Hold an election SNP win
Step 3
Hold a referendum SNP win
OR
Don’t hold a referendum because the Conservative party the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrat Party refuse to take part
Declare Scottish Independence because Westminster has refused time and again a S30
and have then boycotted a Scottish independence referendum even though SNP has had a majority in elections year after year
Yep
Britnats ,MI5 and the Britnat sleeprs in the SNP have started the divide and conquer strategy.
Any one who has had the time to see the FM covid daily briefings will be in no doupt the contempt she has for the unionist media and her determination for Independence She is going to provide a mandate as stated upthread to commit to a referendum in the next parliament but has got ask for the expected refusal of S30 then one step at a time to be able to ensure international recognition.
Also to those saying that the FM has to commit to a set date for a referendum is ludicrous. That is a trap that the unionists want her to fall into.
The FM will know to state the obvious that if the SNP/Greens get a majority at the next parliament and decide to put a referendum on the back burner politically they would be finished.
So keep your spirits up Paul. The fight is on
I have a very strong feeling the International recognition work has already been done Ally, if anybody thinks all those visits abroad by the FM were for sticky buns and coffee they seriously misjudged her and very soon there’ll be a queue forming at Bute House of International visiters looking for a wee chat with the only politician in the UK they actually like and have any respect for
Once the UK exit from the EU is complete officials from any country in the EU are entitled to their open opinions on the UK and are free to discuss whatever they wish with Scotland
I’m really looking forward to that
I so wish I had written your blog – it’s embarrassing to be beaten by a dug – but I totally agree with your thoughts. Ignore the ones who disagree and keep up the good work!
Thank you Mary
Wee Ginger Dug
Excellent post.
Put your family and health first
then Independence.
Argue over other issues later
Hi folks,
I would like to contribute to Pauls recent article. I read WGD every day and try to follow his thinking .I believe our First Minister has made mistakes in the recent and distant pass but I truly believe she is going to enable independence for Scotland, she is a lawyer and analyses every move the MSM and Unionist politicians make. She is meticulous and calculated but caring in her attitude for Scotland. She is feared by the Unionists and they can.t seem to lay a glove on her “despite bile and lies thrown at her every minute of the day” She is respected by the Global media and by the EU, and that terrifies Whitehall. Independence for Scotland is natural and is nearer today than any other time we can remember. Paul I thank you for your informed writing and making sense of current events. Please folks remember the darkest time is just before the Dawn.
Great post John, hope you will post more often because I want others to see that there are a lot more than the few that do post positive messages on WGD. We need all the help we can get 🙂
Thank you for that Alex, as I said, I read WGD every day and all the comments. My thoughts and beliefs are that our time is coming very soon so why blow it on infighting and disharmony. Our First Minister is cautious and at times hesitant ,but these in my opinion are strengths, she has waited for this moment as we all have for many a year. I looking forward to a substantial yes vote knowing that possibly 65% or higher of my fellow Scots “have taken back control” .
Great to see you posting on here John. Don’t make it your last 😉.
This is a terrific article, but I saw something earlier, maybe yesterday (can’t remember who, I think it was a senior SNP member) saying that the SNP should lance the boil of the festering Alex Salmond case, release all the information being requested, sack the people involved if appropriate, apologise if necessary, clear the ground and move on.
Failure to do so will leave a lethal weapon in the hands of the British state. You can bet your life that they have all the necessary information and in the event of a new referendum or election they will wait till the optimum time to release it. Like a couple of days before voting when all the unionist media will be blasting it out at full volume. Like they did with The Vow.
Now that Nicola is riding high in the polls this would be the best time to come clean about all the shenanigans with the Alphabet sisters who seem to have been committing perjury to try and convict an innocent man. If the SNP would just come clean about this it would undoubtedly cause ructions but most reasonable people would recognise honesty when they see it and in the long term the contrast with the unionists would work to our benefit.
If on the other hand they just keep trying to cover it up and push it into the future they are giving the unionists a media weapon which could be used with devastating effect against us. Especially if all the goodwill towards Nicola regarding her conduct of the Covid business is in the past. Does anybody seriously think that Westminster is not looking at all possible ways of stymieing our movement towards independence, and that they would not be capable of stooping as low as this?
It’s not the SNP who are holding documents, it’s the courts who have control over this and they are holding documents from both sides and will only release them when they decide and not as the conspiracy theorists claim, some stitch up by the SNP
These people are making use of the publics lack of knowledge on the subject to amplify their own cause, it’s what subversives do
Indeed. The Courts ruled that some documents could not be released and they did this at the time of the Court case(s). If the SG releases them then they would be held in contempt of court. Not a good look for any Government.
Recently the SG said it was prepared to release certain documents that were not covered by the embargo but it was reported that Mr Salmond had threatened to go to court to block their release.
I thought Alex Salmond offered to go to court to seek the release of papers provided the Scottish government paid the costs rather than go to court to block any release of papers?
Can you provide more detail of your claim?
12th Sept
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/alex-salmond-blocks-release-probe-22669207
And from 15 September
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18722237.salmond-threatens-government-legal-action-block-release-documents/
Various media outlets carried these stories. As I said above “reported”
Linda Fabiani was interviewed on BBC Reporting Scotland last night and mentioned Alex Salmond as being one of the people who was holding up the enquiry. You won’t hear about that or find the articles that you’ve posted … ”elsewhere” … Legerwood. It’s called propaganda by omission. Used to manipulate people 🙄.
And this from Philip Sim…….
”No punches being pulled by MSPs on Holyrood’s Salmond inquiry – Linda Fabiani says they’re “completely frustrated” by a lack of evidence “and quite frankly obstruction” they face, with “responses still outstanding” from the government, SNP chief Peter Murrell and Salmond himself.’ https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1310909160654020612
“”You won’t hear about that or find the articles that you’ve posted … ”elsewhere” … Legerwood. It’s called propaganda by omission. Used to manipulate people 🙄.””
Maybe I need more coffee this morning, Petra but I have no idea what you are trying to say or point you are trying to make.
Without saying too much Legerwood, ”elsewhere” is the key word.
Oh God, I think I am going to have to start taking my coffee intravenousl.
Forget about the coffee. I thought that you and I were on the same wave length 😀.
Thanks, all a bit strange.
Most people in Scotland don’t give two monkeys about this, They have mouths to feed and bills to pay. They really don’t care, it’s only a tiny minority that read blogs like this and others who pay any attention.
By all means get “it” all out in the open, whatever “it” is. It will make no difference whatsoever, our adversaries the Unionists believe otherwise. I think they’re onto plums.
Oh, the jackals of the BritNat Dead Tree Scrolls were positively salivating in anticipation of the Salmond trial, and they were completely boondoggled when it turned out to be a one-day wonder and was then completely sidelined by the Covid crisis. Now they and their online proxies are investing their thwarted hopes and frustrations on the subsequent inquiry. It’s almost as pathetic as the BritNat trolls on SGP taking great pleasure in trying to gaslight us that healthcare in Scotland is a bust. What kind of friend is it who is always trying to “prove” you’re incapable, and takes evident pleasure in your every difficulty?
Absolutely. terrific… “…I saw something earlier, maybe yesterday (can’t remember who, I think it was a senior SNP member) saying that the SNP should lance the boil of the festering Alex Salmond case, release all the information being requested, sack the people involved if appropriate, apologise if necessary, clear the ground and move on”
You are suffering from a severe case of arsinface 77, it is not incurable but without treatment may exacerbate your condition. Please contact SERCO TEST AND PROTECT UK LTD (Tory Party approved) as you are in England for early intervention and billing. Current call waiting time is approximately 3 years… Beep
“arsinface 77” hahaha I nearly wee’d myself 🙂
Chapeau, Bob! (This one was an original, I presume?)
Divide and conquer is a popular tactic.
To be honest I’d have been more surprised if they hadn’t tried something like this to break the Independence movement apart and get it fighting among itself.
On the plus side. Definitely means the opposition is getting scared enough to break out the dirty tricks playbook again.
So even stuff like this can be a sign of hope. Silver lining and all…
Yes, and what terrifies the BritNats most of all, both here and down south, is that the recent surge in support for independence lies substantially on her slim shoulders. (Hence all these pathetic deposition attempts, not to forget the frantic goalpost-moving and mutterings about delaying the election.) So we need to give the SNP as substantial a vote of confidence as possible next May. And if we all do, I – as something of an impatientista myself – am confident that things will get very interesting indeed. (In fact, the way things are shaping up, they likely will warm up well beforehand anyway.)
Sorry, this was intended as a reply to john mclaughlin upthread.
Totally agree grizebard.
Neatly done. A timely post.
Hey Macart, good to see you posting. When will you get back to work in persuading the undecided? I would like to hear more from you 🙂
Been a long summer Alex. Haven’t had much time online due to personal issues, but have been chatting to folks offline on the current state of the UK. Mainly people who don’t do social meeja, the digital realm in general or are in any way political anoraks.
They’re not happy is probably the most diplomatic way of framing their opinion. Brexit, devo power grabs, austerity legislation, covid. It’s not the bill of goods they were sold six years ago and now they’re beginning to take note.
Yes Ally, they are obviously intent on divide and rule. They probably imagine that they can drive a wedge – or even better from their point of view – wedges. Fortunately they are wasting their time and energy.
All they are actually achieving is to help to separate the wheat from the chaff and that is no bad thing for us.
At this stage in the process we really don’t need to be associated with loud mouths and failures. When we were treading water they filled a gap. They provided some interesting, entertaining moments. Now they are just petulant fools.
Cynicism probably best describes my attitude towards them. My interest is in independence, not feeding the delusions of people who imagine that they are owed something because they are special – British special.
“If you really believe that the biggest enemy of the independence cause is the SNP leadership and a substantial chunk of the party, if you really believe that the only way to attain independence is to overthrow them and set up another party, then you have given up on any realistic chances of attaining independence for decades to come. That is the unarguable consequence of your own logic. You will have consigned Scotland to a Tory dystopia for the foreseeable future.”
But wouldn’t this be the best scenario for a blogger who gets by on pro-indy donations? Isn’t it in the direct financial interest — not to mention self-publicity interests — of such a blogger to argue conspiracy theories and make the SNP look as terrible as possible, regardless of whether of not it’s true?
Question
Does this help Independence?- yes, I’m in
No- cheerio.
It’s simply a fact that the Independence supporting side have next to zero access to the media in order to get out message across.
Support has increased for two reasons, the first being that the majority who voted Yes in 2014 have not gone away but the biggest reason for the increase in support is the fact we have Boris Johnson in charge at Westminster and Nicola Sturgeon in charge in Scotland.
No one can fail to have noticed the difference in competence between the two of them. Sturgeon is totally in charge of her brief, she has read the papers and knows her stuff, Johnson, on the other hand, is…still a clown hanging from a zip wire waving Union Jacks.
The people of Scotland have awoken to that fact and it is precisely for that reason that the British State want to be rid of Sturgeon more than anything else. She is the greatest danger to the Union that it has ever faced.
So they are pulling out all the tricks they can and especially on social media and blogs such as this simply because that is where we have the upper hand.
You know what I think though? It has become all too obvious and they are wasting their time. Too little too late, Independence is now certain. Just a matter of time.
..”No one can fail to have noticed the difference in competence between the two of them. Sturgeon is totally in charge of her brief, she has read the papers and knows her stuff, Johnson, on the other hand, is…still a clown hanging from a zip wire waving Union Jacks.”..
He doesn’t have a bl**dy clue.
‘Boris Johnson apologises for north-east England lockdown gaffe.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/18756453.boris-johnson-apologises-north-east-england-lockdown-gaffe/
Nicola Sturgeon Is a highly intelligent,highly experienced politician. She understands the divide and rule tactics of perfidious Albion and those other folk orbiting Scottish and Westminster Politics. She is engaged in a prolonged and onerous campaign….I really do not envy her dealings with this world.
Support and encouragement is what we all need and so particularly at this moment, does Nicola Sturgeon.
Totally agree Alba woman, she must feel like she is carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders right now. She has handled everything mightily impressively to my mind so far nut it must be tough going. Johnson bottled out weeks back as he didn’t have what it takes.
She is a real leader he is a clown that will soon be gone as even his own side see the mess he is making of everything. Clown.
Great commentary. But what if Nicola is fallible like the rest of us and isnt messianic and has no idea how she will lead us to the promised land…what then.?
If you really think this is a “great commentary”, you would already have realised that the answer lies within.
A more subtle try than your pals, but still no cigar.
Wait to the river Clyde parts…. or take the squinty bridge home to Pacific quay. Lol
PLAN B! LOL
Well, THAT post should be worth a few more “National” articles, Dugsy!
Not entirely sure what you mean by that. I didn’t write it in order to keep The National happy.
Just an ordinary voter who has voted SNP for the last 28 yrs, I stopped voting lab after the first Iraq war. Principles I guess, I will struggle to vote for a party that was willing to put a innocent man in jail, I thought Scotland would be better than that. I will continue to vote for other parties that support Independance. Sometimes the ends don’t justify the means and principles matter unless we don’t wish to actually build a better country from the beginning
What on earth are you on about? No “party” was “willing to put an innocent man in jail”. That’s why we have trials, dummy. An accused person is put on trial and judged innocent or guilty. That’s a jury’s decision, not any “party”. If it’s the Salmond trial in particular to which you refer, Alex was declared not guilty of all major counts by a jury of his peers (incidentally many of them women).
In effect what you are saying is that someone in a position of power must get a free pass, unlike the rest of us, just because you’re a fan. Seriously? Would you have predatory rapists or kiddy-fiddlers escape justice just because they’re influential or popular? What possible fantastical world do you inhabit?
Gie us a break, Nirvana believer.
The man’s a dummy is he? A Nirvana believer? Perhaps he would like predatory rapists to run free around auld Scotia with his trousers at his ankles? For having the temerity to state what exactly?
Its amazing how a large majority of the posts mirror the opinions of the bloggers, Wings is the same. I’ll be voting SNP in may regardless but It will be interesting if anyone here will be having a change of heart about the investment of so much control in a small group of people at the top of the SNP in a few months time.
And what party is not like that? (Oh, maybe the ones with 5 members.)
Ultimately if party members don’t like their current leadership, they change it. That’s how it works. Simples.
Don’t like it, start your own. And take your chances with the voters just like all the others.
I said I would vote SNP regardless. Its never in been in doubt. I’ve been doing it since I was 18 years old, in every election for the past 31 years. My mither and faither did as well, my brother and sister do. Aunts and uncles, everyone on the on the Aberfeldy side my side at least. I go to the wings blog. He’s a good writer like this blogger and seems to be in the know. I’m not keen on him, the anti-gaelic pish sticks in my craw actually, scrapping all the time, not above peddling the false odd false argument to pursue his target. I don’t know him but I don’t trust him and I have no real reason to mistrust him despite calling him a turncoat a few times.
I definitely trust the wee ginger dug, no sure why I just do.
I’m a bit like that I don’t really trust bosses or leaders or folk with followers like wings who parrot his pish. I’m not really impressed with this one for a whole range of reasons. Do I think she is gulity of what she is being accused of? leading us up the garden path etc, too cosy with the arrogant entitled classes of msm journalists and lawyers? Is she feverishly plotting to preserve her and her cliques positions while having no real desire to lead the SNP and the wider movement in the direction we want? I have no idea, Sounds a bit wild. I would dearly hope not. I am more worried about stuff like preparation, institutions, bringing the movement together, promoting the most able people into ministerial positions, policy programs that look like they are designed to not scare the important folk too much. I think the SNP leadership has failed us a wee bit on that. Do i think we should take out the guillotin? Nope. I havent been active in ages ‘but I doubt its any easier for the party members to involve themselves in policy making.
I don’t see where the absolute faith is that some folk on here espouse. look how popular we are? Aye maybe but I prefer a wee bit of skepticisim, they are paid well enough they can take it.
Oh aye, and it is still Nicola Sturgeon’s baw whatever anyone says. i hope for her sake that what are I suppose still rumours aren’t true. Either way i do not think that it will upset us too much we will get there despite everything because this cause is in the right.
Umm, have you considered that in a democracy with the Rule of Law at its heart, political parties don’t actually put ANYONE in jail whether innocent or guitly, that would be a judge (or sheriff), and in that case, after a jury had ruled on his innocence or guilt on the basis of evidence and arguments, according to that same Rule of Law?
Mmm, I think guitly people should be made to walk the plank, but that’s just me.
And your point exactly is…? (?)
If you’re talking about my post, it was directed at Gillies MacBain.
Indeed, mine likewise. (It’s just the nested layout.)
This just gets better and better. A “party that was willing to put a innocent man in jail”?
Are you for real? What evidence do you have that any party wanted to put an innocent man in jail. It’s a laugh a minute on the blog WGD at the moment, look at the state of the doubters hahaha.
Aye and George Galloway is sitting back stroking his bearded cat pleased with himself and his chums work
”I will struggle to vote for a party that was willing to put a innocent man in jail.”
And you know that for sure Jonathan? There’s currently an investigation being carried out looking into this issue. May be better to hang fire and wait for the outcome.
Lolz. You’re wasting your time C avery. We aren’t afflicted with the cringe.
Yes, The Cringe is a virus whose prevalence is exponentially diminishing. It’s mostly only lingering now amongst those with weak constitutions.
🤣
Thought to rephrase that second sentence then realised it was totally unnecessary…
I got it in the end 🙂
That’s pretty darn funny! Perhaps my use of Party was the wrong way to describe it… But definitely individuals would have been quite happy. I guess the innocent man can thank his lucky stars that the Scottish Court did its Job. As for Utopia no I’m too much a realist to inhabit that.
GOT TO BE TORIES WHO ARE THINKING THIS WAY
OR EVEN WORSE LABOUR
Channel 4 exposes Donald Trump and Cambridge Analytica over the use of Psychographics and proves conclusively he’s still doing it, and that’s good, but they don’t mention Theresa May and her government who were doing it too or Dominic Cummings who is using it right now and is more than definitely embedded in the Covid App the UK is now using and that’s why it took them so long to make it available, because everything the Tories do has to have a commercial value so it can be sold
If you don’t know what Psychographics are it’s the collection of all data you input into your computer laptop or phone pertaining to your life, from the food you pay for with your bank card to the curtains you bought for your bathroom and every preference you click on the Internet, they know how you vote and intend to vote then they target information at you specifically to make you change your mind or even put the fear of God into you just as Trump is targeting black Americans right now in an effort to make them stay at home and not vote
This is what the subversives are doing right here and now on the internet, they’re sewing badness by confusing unimportant to the general public issues with lies and attempting to attach huge importance to things that can have no affect on peoples lives to try to prevent rational thought and to drive a hate agenda and there’s nothing new in this, newspapers have been employing this tactic for decades and that’s where the internet warriors learned it from, so when you see the Daily Express or Daily Mail front page and wonder what the hell, now you know where you’ve seen it before
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing but a lot of knowledge can be far more dangerous when folk use it against you
Yup, the only weakness they have found is the Salmond Affair, and it’s turned out to be a bitter disappointment for their horde of leeches, there’s been so very little blood to draw.
For most ordinary folk, it’s simply a question of physical and economic survival, they have no time for destructive parasitical troubleseeking. People are reaching for a Higher Rock, and they have found a trustworthy one. Amen.
Neither the SNP or Scottish Govt are beyond criticism; nobody is. However, the level of vitriol coming from some sections of the “independence movement” appears at the very least in danger of aiding the enemies of independence by allowing them to “divide and rule” us. Let’s remember what it is that unites us first and foremost.
I agree with this broadly but am concerned that we have the democratic channels we need in the SNP to effect the kind of change that many of us think may well be forced on us in a matter of 3 months or so.
This point is pish actually I retract it apart from the part that I agree with the previous poster. It won’t be down to the members and I probably don’t merit much of a say anyway to be entirely honest.
Excellent! You have succinctly expressed what I have been struggling to articulate, thank you!
Labour MSP Alex Rowley agrees with the Scottish government that the Brexit bill is indeed a power grab and Holyrood should not stand for it
It should be noted that the only time in recent years that Labour’s numbers went up in Scotland is when they had no leader and Alex Rowley was the spokesman, he’ll get into trouble for agreeing with the SNP ….Again!
I just watched Channel 4 doing their expose on this. What immediately came to my mind was the utter hypocrisy of channel 4 and all other tv channels, newspapers etc that have been – more primitively but no less determinedly – doing the same thing in principle, from day dot. I am reminded of when I used to analyse data using punched cards as compared to today’s powerful computers. The tools were light years apart but the goals were the same.
I think the only saving grace is the same as with msm, they just can’t help allowing their conceit to overwhelm their judgement. Their ‘nothing succeeds like excess’ approach is most likely to boomerang on them. The British system will, of course, have to be world beating i.e. half baked.
Call me an optimist!
It looks like the shiny new ISP cover has been blown as its co founder declares support for Donald Trump, of course the party has immediately distanced themselves from her so that the world beating Internet branch can keep on punting them as the saviours of Scotland on the list vote, yeah like that was their real intentions, and do up the top button at the back of my head while you’re at it
Blimey, that’s interesting, taking the people of Scotland for freaking fools eh…
It’s amazing that some people can find so much to gripe about (tear apart) in relation to SNP politicians, many of whom have been in the public domain and under scrutiny consistently for years on end, and yet the same people expect us to vote for individuals that we know absolutely nothing about 😀.
‘Independence for Scotland founder backs Donald Trump in US election.’
http://www.thenational.scot/news/18756365.independence-scotland-founder-backs-trump-us-election/
Excellent article.
I thought of a great sketch when reading this, by the brilliant Dave Allen. It’s sort of related. There’s an open top old fashioned ministerial car full of Russian (?) politicians dressed in furs, obviously rich, trying to escape a marauding mob of people unhappy (!) with them, so the mob drag the rich furred guys out the car, take the furs and jump in the fancy car, yeah! That put paid to the nasty oppressors and oligarchs! Oops, drives round the corner only to meet a marauding mob who want to take down the elite regime, and attack them! It’s very funny. Be careful what you wish for eh.
Could never find the clip on youtube sadly.
I remember that clip. Very funny
There’s another well kent indy blogger who would do well to get of his high horse, read and understand your words of wisdom here, Paul.
Bravo sir!
`As in Scottish football it seems like an “Old Firm” mentality has developed between WOS and WGD readers and contributors.And so with rabid supporters spouting intolerant personally insulting responses to persons they do not know, occasionally implying that they are WOS followers, and by implication….anti-SNP.
If contributors here, two persons in particular, are truly serious about unity of purpose towards gaining independence, then read back and reflect on just what you have written here in your responses to contributions.
It’s becoming a serious problem. There are a lot of people who have been banned from “the other place” and who have taken refuge here. The people that they were having disagreements with have followed them intent on pursuing their arguments. It’s getting pretty tiresome to be honest.
I am not one of those although I have a posts deleted on Scot goes Pop and Labour Hame unfairly I would contest. I post rarely and only on articles I find interesting. Your article and indeed the blog is.
Not surprising. If they really want to keep hammering that wedge into the indy movement, they have to keep pushing their message. Can’t do that in the echo chamber that “the other place” has become.
If it were me, I’d just mercilessly ban the lot of them from here. I find I’m getting less forgiving as I get older.
In that respect, you’ve got far more patience and compassion than me 🙂
Not all of the former contributors to WOS were banned, some made their way here voluntarily, finding the ambience far more agreeable.
On the topic, there’s also a loner (with a puerile name intended to convince he’s genuine) trying the same miserable thing over on SGP. According to him, we’re the “Nicola Fan Club”. Whit, just because we choose to “accentuate the positive”, which is what most ordinary people are looking for right now, not niggly wee theoretical squabbles?
I don’t think there’s many people on here who are not acutely aware that the SNP as a whole is far from perfect, and on notice. We expect all of them to live up to our high expectations, and get coherently on the offensive before too long. But surely by both word and deed Nicola has earned her place in our esteem, and more importantly, in the esteem of many former “no’s”. Who but a small-minded rabble-rousing ingrate or fake indy supporter would deny that?
Polling numbers and anecdotal evidence from around the country supports exactly what you say grizebard
I left WoS a good while back when it became so obviously anti independence/anti snp/anti Nicola Sturgeon. It also became very misogynistic. I also noted that although there appeared to be a lot of btl comments, they were the same few commenting/fighting continuously amongst themselves.
I’ve been reading WGD since before the first indyref. What Paul writes is very much what I think/believe. He says it all so well and with some humour thrown in. He has a gift with words. Like someone else here has said we are very lucky he is on our side.
Today’s article has attracted quite a number of “newbies” btl and all of them spouting the WoS mantra. Go back to where you came from please.
They are scared. And we are winning
I predict you’re going to be a very busy man whether you like it or not as things heat up Paul
You’ll have to employ yourself as staff
Paul, sometimes when things get that tiresome – and for me, somewhat aligned with your article above, I too have found the last few months of theoretical dead end debating ‘tiresome’ – I’ll admit that the zeal of one individual on social media, declaring they were inspired by ‘the other place’, was expressed in a way which left me naughtily self-indulgently laughing long and hard.
This person, God bless them, said that Nicola Sturgeon should be ‘ousted’ and replaced with a ‘Lawrence of Arabia riding into Aqaba’ type of leader. I laughed like a drain because, apparently, Lawrence accidentally shot his camel through the head, was thrown off, rendered unconscious and knew nothing until it was all over!
Unity is essential and yet you refer to WOS as the other place.
Read the Daily Mail and the Daily Record, and believe neither was the advice I received at school.
And so reading and commenting on both WGD and WOS shouldn’t be decried as disloyal.
And is the requirement of unity such that the shortcomings of an organisation, political, or religious must not be addressed.?
And- please don’t yawn – the Salmond stitch up, GRA ideas, sex/gender stuff has caused my wife and me to leave the SNP after some +30 years.
We will both campaign for independence.
WoS is not here, so it is “the other place”. And nobody here has any objection whatever to where you choose to post.
A bit rich though, if I may say, a frequenter of that nest of splitterists coming here to preach “unity”.
As for the SNP, the party is ultimately the sum of all its parts. I don’t discern any significant portion of the membership pushing for any of the things in your wee shopping list of pet hates, so I don’t see your problem. There was no collective torch-and-pitchfork mob going after anyone. (I think I would have noticed.) As for the GRA, that’s (wisely) been quietly shelved by the powers-that-be, but the grumblers of WoS do need a handy shoogly peg on which to hang their over-inflated grievances, I suppose.
As to continuing to support independence, I wish you both well in your endeavours, though I suspect you will be ploughing a lonely and unproductive furrow by ignoring the SNP. But that’s your right and your decision. Infecting the public though with your evident disillusion can only work against.
Well that’s it, almost with a whimper not a bang the UK ends. The Infernal Market Bill passed its 3rd reading and is on its way to the Lords, back to the Commons I think and then off for Royal Assent. At which stage clause 45 – an ironic number that perhaps comes in 3’s with it being 3rd time lucky – destroys the UK and the rUK.
I’ve never really been anti-UK, been supporting Independence far too long for that now. My heart bleeds for the people of the rUK – and us if we don’t manage to escape.
Not so much “ends” as such, of course, but lights a medium-length fuse. Which leads to many barrels of black powder which have been slowly accumulating since 1707.
There’s nothing quite like an ignorant self-entitled fool with a lit match in a room full of the black stuff, is there…?
‘Is Boris Johnson Risking Another Constitutional Conflict with the Queen?’
..”If MPs vote for the Bill, as is expected, it could force a constitutional crisis, with the Queen well within her rights to refuse to give the legislation Royal Assent.”..
If the Queen refuses her consent another document is produced headed abdication, she knows that so she’ll sign whatever’s put in front of her for the preservation of her reign and her most important duty, her family
And, eh, let’s not forget the loot Dr Jim 😎 😀.
…which is what it has always been about!
👏👏👏
Very well put Paul, Puritans have always been the curse of Scotland
Well I think the Dug excelled himself today, a call to unity managed to attract a divisive rabble of divisivers, predictably first to comment with the usual divisive drivel with the intent to cause division, big fat fail there guys, but entertaining.
Before I go to bed, I’d just like to address some comments I noticed on Twitter. Some people are saying that this blog article is “drivel” because I “hadn’t even read the article it purports to rebut”.
This is a reference to a piece which appeared on WOS on Monday. And yes indeed, I hadn’t read that piece before I wrote my own article. That’s because this article isn’t an attempt to rebut what was published on WOS. If indeed I had set out to rebut that piece I would have addressed the specific points that it raised.
My piece was written in response to comments I’ve seen over the past few days on Twitter and on Facebook, but it was primarily written because of a comment on this blog yesterday which claimed that the SNP don’t really want independence.
But apparently some people on Twitter understand my own motivations better than I do.
Comments like ”drivel”, from the social media psychics, will be the least of your worries over the forthcoming months Paul 😀, as you’ve now become the number one pro-Independence blogger that’s proving to be a real threat to the Union, imo.
And by the way I’ve spent so much time reading through and answering posts on here that I haven’t had the time to comment on your article. To my mind it’s the best one yet and that’s saying something as they are all brilliant. All I can say is thank God we’ve got you on our side.
Aye, they understand everybody way better than people themselves do. It’s a wonderful gift. It’s odd though that it seems to make them all so annoyed…
”…some people on Twitter understand my motivations better than I do .”
Of course they do , Paul . There has been a run on Amazon lately of The Great British Crystal Ball , all with a wee union fleg on the arse .
This will explain the current plethora on this site of comments which claim to
a) know what all of the people of Scotland think on every issue under the sun , and particularly their distrust of the SNP and Nicola
b) have insider knowledge as to the workings and motivation of Nicola Sturgeon’s inner most thoughts and feelings
c) know EXACTLY what the hierarchy of the SNP had for breakfast and how they are stitching up the Independence movement by pretending to want Indy
d) are convinced that a new party of independence will spring fully formed from the loins of an ex-pat Scot in the suburbs of Bristol which will lead the way to the promised land of Independence BUT only after the vile creature that is Nicola Sturgeon has been exposed as a FEMALE who wants to convince a MAJORITY of Scots that independence is only possible if won legally .
Don’t expect it to get better anytime soon. In our world, which is their world too, calls for unity, using humour to highlight hypocrisy and lies both collective and individually is a stark contrast to the doom and gloom from the msm.
Phantom Power:- ”That’s it. Internal Market Bill goes through. The Scottish Govt refused consent and the UK Govt simply ignored it. Devolution in Scotland is over and will now begin to be rolled back. Hope the SNP have something more planned than fine speeches. It’s independence or nothing now.” https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1311051853162057728
…………………………………….
Mhairi Black (16:54pm) and then, surprise, surprise, the speaker shuts her up.
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/8c742125-9e67-4911-b721-907e367b0000?in=16:54:33
Ian Blackford 19:35pm.
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/8c742125-9e67-4911-b721-907e367b0000?in=19:35:18
Watch the skies tomorrow folks because the fan has been hit by the S**T and it’s about to get noisy
They’ve been provoking the FM to see how far they can get away with it, they’re about to find out
FGS don’t keep us in suspense, Dr Jim 😲.
Johnston and the Tories will be gone. Any support dropping like a stone. The Tories are in complete mess. Complete and utter incompetence. They do not have a clue. TheTories in complete disarray. The Courts have to have a say, on a daily basis, in sorting out their mess. Completely illegal Gov. They have to back down every time. Trying to treat people like fools.
They can maybe pass a Law. False rhetoric. Entirely different thing to implement it. Wasting public monies on a colossal scale. The reason they are in politics to line their pockets. Disgraceful.
Support for SNP/Independence rising. If and when people vote for it. Getting higher. Then the time comes to go for it. The time is nigh. One campaign at a time. Through the Ballot box.
Ireland went too soon. A complete and utter murderous mess and shambles. 5 years. Westminster illegal Partition 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928. Ireland could have gone through the Ballot Box. The people would have voted for it. Home Rule/Independence. Instead of jumping the gun. Peaceful transition. Instead of major strife. A bit of patience. A couple of years, to get over the pandemic.
Brexit will never happen. Never agreement. The Tories will be gone. Others will have to clear up their gigantic mess. As usual. They had to get rid of Thatcher for closer ties with Europe to aid the economy. Colossal failing, falling support. Violent social unrest and strife.
The violence of the Thatcher/Tory/Labour year’s. Killing off people. Vote unionist to die younger. Not likely continuing to happen soon.
They predict the collapse of the SNP. More likely the collapse of the Tory/unionists. Guaranteed.
Brilliant speech as usual from Mhairi etc. Setting it out straight. The illegal Westminster legality.
So many excellent candidates and good folk. Great, on to victory. Overcoming injustice. A good position (SNP) to be in.
And on Twitter Ken.
Mhairi Black MP:- ”It took us 300 years to get our Scottish Parliament and 20 years for Westminster to put a bulldozer right through it. #InternalMarketBill.” https://mobile.twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/1311006155414609933
………………………………
Phantom Power:- ”Act of Union/Alien Act and how Scotland was coerced into political union – many still unfamiliar with the circumstances of how our nation, founded before any other in UK, lost its independence. https://mobile.twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1310686938249166850
The latest from Professor John Robertson:-
https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/blog-feed/
…………………………………
The latest from Ann on the Indyref2 site:-
https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/links-wednesday-30-september-2020/
All the doubters, all the naysayers are doing exactly what they are accusing the SNP hierarchy of doing – shutting down independent thought and sidelining those that don’t agree with them, then again aren’t they Lib Dem voters, you know the group that will not allow Scotland independence no matter what.
Fab post Paul but as usual when you comment on this subject which is rare it stirs up a hornets nests and the comments section here is invaded by loads of people never seen here before. It was notable that the Nazgul had been summoned within minutes of your post so someone elsewhere had them primed. Anyone who seeks to destroy the Snp at the current time when we have growing support for Indy and the best chance ever of winning an Indy ref which we will get are not only thick but nuts.I can only conclude to a large degree they are working for the other side or the ego of certain other bloggers and they seek to bind us in the darkness of the so called precious union.I am not an Snp member and probably never will be nor do I count myself as part of the grassroots Indy moment as I don’t go on marches etc but the ultimate power is with the electorate and I will continue to vote for the Snp the only party that has a chance of getting us Independence. The naysayers can go crawl back under the rock from which they came
well said Eilidh
👍👏👏👏
Everyone just has to vote. It takes approx one hour every few years. So simple and practical. There for the opportunity. Keep informed. All the rest is a sideline. Important but not absolutely necessary.
There are enough good people. To follow their ethics and desires. For equality etc. Put their money where their mouth is for support. Give some active support. Sometimes little, sometimes large. Depending on the circumstances.
The illegal Barnett Formula. Illegally devised by Thatcher secretly and dishonestly to take revenues and support away from Scotland. To fund London S/E to keep her in illegal power. It made her and her cronies millionaires. Ruined the economy. Unemployment 15%. Interest rates 17%. Social disorder, violence and strife. Poverty. Public monies illegally wasted. Liars always get found out.
The UK one of the most unequal places in the world. Illegal Gov. Laws not enforced or broken.
Going that way now but can be prevented. If people vote against it. Not too late at all.
A great article – spot on in its analysis. Stick with the SNP until independence, after that do what you will. I certainly will reassess my voting options once we have independence.
If Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want independence she’s making a spectacularly bad job of preventing it. Support for independence climbs, her personal rating climbs, SNP support climbs and support for Holyrood v Westminster climbs – all under her watch. Time to go eh?
Completely off topic, but I know some people here do read some of my tappings on the keyboard.
My mum had her cataract operation on Monday and now we are regularly dosing her with eye drops and she has to wear a plastic transparent eye shield for a fortnight. Check up planned for 5 weeks.
Thanks for all your support to date.
Best wishes for Mum’s recovery
Great WS and it won’t be too long before she (and you) reaps the benefits.
All the best to your Ma for a speedy recovery, WS. Just keep up with the eye drops!
👍
This is an example of where the focus should be instead of Nicola.
“Pritti Patel wants to build a gulag for asylum seekers on a barren, volcanic wasteland far from humanity. Someone suggested her soul would be the perfect venue.”
Excellent article Paul – porbably the most powerful WGD article ever.
Thanks for grasping the nettle. It needed to be said. Something indeed seems not quite right at the heart of the SNP right now (no smoke without fire as they say), but we really have to stick with it for now. I would say that there appears to be a massive conflict of interest when members of the same family are in command of a party. Why do all politicians seem to love forming dynasties?
I do believe that in her heart Nicola Sturgeon really wants independence, she just doesn’t want to loose another referendum and with many others she may believe that we are not (quite) in a position to guarantee success yet. Recent opinion polls are encouraging, but they are not that good (after 6 years), certainly I wouldn’t launch yet another suicidal highland charge on that basis.
However, favourabe conditions wont last forever, and although gradualism has reaped many benefits thus far, there will come a time when Nicola and her team have to be brave and throw a little of her gigantic caution to the wind. I would like to see a much more combatitive SNP/SG, taking on WM and their MSM poodles. There seems to be a real fear within the snp of not frightening the horses and placating a hopelessly hostile British nationalist press: Why? – what’s to lose? I think the majority people are now ready to see far more assertive action on Scotland’s behalf. Empty rhetoric and tough words wont cut it any longer (listening Ian?). We want to see some real action.
NS appears to be very risk-averse. As a competent politician and crisis manager she has done a great job getting us thus far but we need a bit of Salmondesque risk taking now before WM closes off all the exits completely (as they will do given time).
I am willing to give the current SG one last chance, but I expect to see big moves before and after the next Holyrood election. I would consider giving my second vote to another indepedence party, but only if big hitters like Alex Salmond or Joanna Cherry get involved. The current alternatives are so lightweight they just wont cut it IMO. You need real charisma and gravitas to shake the tectonic plates of Scottish politics. I think AS and JC may be holding fire for now, waiting to see if and when the SNP/SG finally starts moving. If NS wins a big majority in 2021, support for YES continues to increase and she still does nothing, then all bets are off. I hope it wont come to that. Better to go down fighting than throw it all away and forever be despised by Scotland. The Covid-19 pandemic represents both a risk and an opportunity IMO.
Luigi says:
September 30, 2020 at 11:11 am
You nailed it Luigi. I agree with every word you`ve written.
I fully respect your opinions WGD.
However, a section 30 heas already been asked for and repeatedly refused. The refusal could not be clearer, over and over again. So that avenue is now dead and as you put it, fully exhausted. The ridiculous notion that a political party which has always stood for independence, and has it as its number one policy now needs to have another electoral win before pursuing independence is frankly silly. Take a look at what is being done to Scotland. No respopnsible government can sit back and say, well, our country might be getting trashed, but we simply must wait until May 2021, before we can pursue our CLEARLY stated policy objectives.
The Tories did not seek an electoral mandate to remove powers from the Scotland bill, they didn’t seek a new electoral madate to remove powers from Scotland and completely trash devolution across the UK in the internal market bill. No, you see they understand, that sometimes a government has to take action in order to pursue their clearly stated objectives, whether it was explicitly stated in their manifesto or not. The Tories will argue that what they are doing is NEEDED for their brexit manifesto commitment. QED, indepoendence is needed to keep Scotland in the EU.
This thinking that somehow we must sit back, whilst Scotland and its parliament, laws and rights are removed, because it isn’t or wasn’t clear that independence was the SNP aim, is in my honest opinion, akin to dancing on the head of a pin. It is piddling nonsense. No other government would do so.
Everybody in the entire UK knows that independence is the goal of the SNP. There is no doubt. Indeed, the only notion of doubt is one created by the leadership of the SNP itself. The Tories never demanded a new electoral win, no, it was the SNP who INSISTED that they would need it. Nobody else.
I have watched over the last six years as the SNP have created barrier after barrier to independence. An example? All my life, it was understood that ALL that was required for independence would be a pro independence majority elected to the house of commons. Even Thatcher understood that. That was achieved many, many years ago, but what did the SNP do? They themselves (nobody else) insisted that that electoral benchmark was insufficient. That’s right, the SNP themselves, not the Tories, not scotland in union, but the SNP. Over and over again they have created for themselves near impossible hurdles. We are now in the ridiculous situation, where the SNP could win every single seat at Westminster, but we still could not be independent – all due to pronouncements by Nicola Sturgeon herself.
As regards new partes, I too fully share your concerns, in every way you state, but the only reason that has happened is because of the continual dithering by NS. It is on their heads.
As regards UDI, I agree with you, that is absurd, but also legally impossible, since Scotland is in a voluntary union with England. It does not need a unilateral declaration of independence, it merely needs to decide either the treaty no longer works for Scotland (it doesn’t), or that the treaty has been breached by the other signatory, England (it has). Last night at Westminster, the Tory government, with its internal market bill, not only breached international law, but the treay of union itself, as confirmed by Joanna Cherry. QED the treaty of union, an international treaty, with no provision for amendment, is finished. In essence, legally, Scotland is no longer part of the United Kingdom.
Unless somebody can find a legally binding agreement which means Scotland is still subject to English rule, then we are already independent by default. sadly, however,I fully expect our FM to now tell us, this is irrelevant, and breaching the union treaty does not end it, and only a section 30 can be our next step….sometime after May 2021, mibbes. Dither, dither, dither.
Meanwhile Scotland burns, and indy supoporters look on in dismay.
”I have watched over the last six years as the SNP have created barrier after barrier to independence.”
The barrier to independence RL has been the Scots themselves. It’s only in the last few months that we’ve witnessed consistent support for Independence. If we’d gone for Indyref2 in any year between 2014 and now we would have lost, imo.
You also say, ”All my life, it was understood that ALL that was required for independence would be a pro independence majority elected to the house of commons. Even Thatcher understood that. That was achieved many, many years ago, but what did the SNP do?”
They’ve, the SNP, no doubt taken into account that attempting to pursue an (any) alternative route to achieving Independence, that excluded proving that a majority of Scots support Independence, wouldn’t work. Wouldn’t be recognised by the EU or the International community, could lead to multiple lawsuits and even civil war.
”Meanwhile Scotland burns, and indy supporters look on in dismay.”
Well RL this isn’t just about one woman or one political party for that matter. There are hundreds of thousands of us. The majority of whom, instead of looking on in dismay, should be playing their part, should have been playing their part over the last 6 years, to ensure that Westminster could see that support for Independence was going right through the roof. We didn’t have to do too much either, just convert one other person to get us over the line, however data informs us that the ”dismayed” Indy supporters couldn’t even do that. And what we see now, FGS, is a concerted effort to to get rid of Nicola Sturgeon and discredit the SNP altogether when we’ve never been closer to winning. If that works out for ”them” the next ”looking on in dismay” experience that they’ll have is when the Unionists are ruling the roost from Holyrood due to us losing Indyref2 and laughing their heads off knowing that we and we alone, not Nicola Sturgeon, shot ourselves in the foot.
Agreed!
Agreed
In response to your reply, here’s the thing. Let”s wind the clock forward, to May 2021, the SNP win the election, and ask for a section 30, and AGAIN it is refused. Won’t you feel like 8 months have just been wasted?? And once Boris refuses a section 30 again, what happens? What is the grand plan? This is the problem. Boris is not about to be reasoned with or listen to morality or democracy claims, he is after all the only PM in history to close Westminster illegally. It took court action to have it re-opened. Do you really think he will care if the SNP win an election?
On another point, I have noticed lots of comments about people who also post on Wings over Scotland, commenting here. Just for the record, I was posting about indy before wings or the wee ginger dog blog began. Indeed, I started on Newsnet Scotland, where a certain Paul Kavanagh occasionally posted, many, many years ago. In fact I still have a copy of his ‘divorce letter’ to Westminster, he published on (I think) that site (if you haven’t read it, you should). I also have signed copies of two of his books, having met him at AUOB and other earlier indy marches. The point I am making, is that whilst I disagree with some parts of his article, I have the greatest respect for Paul. It is too easy, for those who read posts disagreeing on here, to assume the posters are ‘bad operators’. As for abuse, it is terrible no matter the circumstances, when aimed at indy supporters like Paul.
Hope that clarifies some things.
This is all a problem to you but not to me or 55% of the Scottish public who now support both Independence and the SNP.
A section 30 order has been refused exactly once. By Boris Johnson, Theresa May said now was not the time which is not the same thing as a refusal. You really do give far too much respect to what Boris Johnson might or might not do and not enough to what the Scottish Government can do with the support of the people.
It’s genuine Indepnendce supporters h=just like you that I can’t understand, do you fail to see that attcking the SNP and their leadership is siding with the MSM and Unionists who do exactly the same day in and day in?
If you can’t see that then you are a fool.
The WM tory govt’s are past masters at divide and conquer. They have been at it for decades, and they will as we comment, be filling the YES movement including Paul’s blog with imposters (spies). I have my suspicions of a few sneaking in to the comments on this blog. As for “wings” it is full of them starting with the Lib Dem. I don’t even go there any longer. Do not let it happen to this blog, If you suspect anybody don’t even answer them.
If blogs go down there are others. People will not be silenced. It is an impossibility.
Liars always get found out. Just vote. Simple
More pigheaded reprobates. They ruin websites. Then transfer over to try and ruin others. Not worth the effort. Do not let them
Just vote.
The crystal balls out about some things that has never happened. Round and round the houses. Just vote.
I made a mistake in my previous post (September 29, 2020 at 6:18 pm ) blaming the SNP exclusively for withholding evidence from the Holyrood enquiry. My mistake. However none of the comments pointing this out are addressing my basic point which is that if this mess is left to fester till the next indyref or SG election it will undoubtedly be used against us at a time not of our choosing with potentially devastating effect and could cost us the referendum or election.
Nicola’s exemplary conduct of the pandemic is winning us a lot of support so this would be the best time to move forward on the enquiry by unconditionally offering to release ALL relevant documentation without delay and remove from the SNP anyone found to have collaborated in the attempt to have Salmond imprisoned on perjured testimonies. If Peter Murrel was found to have been involved he should go too. This would morally set Nicola head and shoulders above virtually every other politician in the country and people would notice this.
It would also make it clear exactly who is opposing the release of information.
So we should all just shut up and let the SNP do nothing. That’s a useless plan!
Surely staying silent is the enemy of progress. At the moment none of us believe the SNP will progress independence. Just giving them another 5 year term is not a plan Paul. Can you not see that Murrells silence gives the game away.
Many people have asked. Where is the indy ref 2 fund? This is completely ignored. I believe money and funding is at the heart of the inertia. The SNP don’t have the funds to fight an independence campaign. They can’t ask for crowdfunding because people don’t trust them now. Hence they have tried to stop Martin Keating’s court case. If he wins that then they can’t keep delaying the referendum.
Everyone and their dog knows that Scotland can hold a referendum. We are dealing with international law not domestic law.
The Section 30 is a convenient con.
so we hold a referendum. Local authorities not run by the snp boycott it. There are no polling places, no polling monitors, no counting place, no counters, no returning officer. how’s that going to work?
Another one with a crystal ball that tells him that ” NONE of us believe the SNP will progress Independence ”.
Perhaps Big Jock can tell me what to have for my Tea tonight – he appears to be omniscient !
FGS I reckoned that I’d reply to your post Big Jock but I can’t be bothered because I’d be on here all day. Suffice to say that comments such as, ”none of us believe, ”people don’t trust them” and ”everyone and their dog” doesn’t seem to apply to the 56% of the electorate that are planning to vote for Independence. They apply, in the main, to supporters of an online blog that most ordinary Scots haven’t even heard of.
Mike drop! Boom!
Well said again Petra.
Ah, now a regular negativist from Peter A Bell’s site, as if WoS wasn’t enough. The one who once prophesised that Nicola was going to dump us and go work for the UN, IIRC. Another wonky crystal ball user.
Great to be popular, don’t you think grizebard 😎.
If 56% are supporting independence and also in the majority the snp or greens I can only presume you side with the lid dem, labour or tories.
If you want folk not to vote for the SNP or Greens just be up front about it.
The monumental mess that was the 2014 English referendum held in Scotland under the control of David Cameron and the broadcast media then subsequently lost as it was designed to, won’t happen again, when Nicola Sturgeon said the words “I don’t want to just hold a referendum, I want to win one” she wasn’t just aiming that at Scotland’s voters telling them just that she wouldn’t lose the next referendum, that was also a personal statement aimed elsewhere at the omnishambles that had just occurred and pointing out that if she’s in charge she will never allow that to happen again
And there is the end of one tale and the beginning of another, and here we are today with a man who lost a referendum versus the woman who could win one, hence tribalism amongst supporters, they’ve picked their sides and the folk who want to resurrect the past that lost refuse to move into the future with a new chance to win because they believe in something heroic that actually didn’t happen
Scotland didn’t score the winning goal because the other team was allowed to control the game before kick off
I do think that the upcoming election, as a number of posters here have said, poses a nasty headache for committed indy supporters. The SNP is a busted flush: its membership has halved since 2014, it’s done nothing in the last six years to shift opinion towards indy (the recent uplift is due entirely to Johnson) or to rebut MSM propaganda, it has no money, its allegedly ring-fenced indy fund has vanished, its leaders unforgivably stitched up Salmond, it’s blocked the Keating court case and the Salmond enquiry, and the 2020 conference is all but cancelled. To ask us to vote for them on the grounds that they will deliver indy is a joke.
To ask us to vote for them to demonstrate support for independence sounds a lot better, but I don’t get the logic behind it. An electoral mandate is a necessary first step, we’re told – but it’s not a step down the right road. If elected, the SNP will cuckold the electorate for the next five years just as they’ve done for the last five. Ah, but we get them to change after the election, it’s said – but how? Our electoral system gives us a vote every five years. Between elections, all we can do is make a fuss at SNP branch meetings and piddle about with local councillors. How much effect do you think that’s going to have?
I proposed earlier that the price of an SNP vote should be a manifesto statement that commits them to performing, on a named date, a concrete and verifable act that would challenge the UK – such as holding an indy ref. (The Referendum Bill doesn’t cut it, because it only commits them to passing an enabling bill.) I hold to that proposal. And it doesn’t lose anything, either. If we vote in the SNP at this election, we have another five years of shilly-shallying crap, but if we cut their support we have five years in which to build a properly led movement.
It’s being so cheerful keeps you going , eh Derek ?
Another crystal ball gazer who KNOWS what Nicola , the SNP et al will be doing in the future . I wonder where your true allegiance lies ?
Simply staggering pile of unadulterated crap.
Your solution is not to vote for the SNP so as we can build something better from the wreckage between 2021 and 2026. You can fuck right off with that steaming turd of a “plan”.
Do you sell dogfood?
I’m afraid it’s kind of obvious you either just made all that nonsense up or you believe what some other person made up and told you because none of it is true
“as a number of posters here have said,”
should be
“as a as a number of fakers from Wings have said,”
at least, I think it’s spelt “fakers”.
Ha, ha! (My pick for riposte of this thread.)
I’m just wondering where you get your information from Derek because I know for sure that it’s not via the MSM. No valid facts or figures support your, let’s call it opinions either. Just be careful that you’re not falling into the trap of being brainwashed Derek especially when you say, ”but if we cut their support we have five years in which to build a properly led movement”, as I’ve heard this ”idea” being bandied about previously by a very manipulative person who’s extremely adept at gaslighting.
Not one fact in that entire post.
Opinion, theory, conjecture and a large degree of waffle cut and pasted from the Wings “destroy the SNP and start again” mob
I want Independence. You obviously don’t.
All the silly things said in one comment! We are not brainwashed on this site.
You are wan o these imposters Derick
Nonsense Derek Rogers
How’s the Scottish People’s Popular Front coming along?
Rank impostors! The Only True Way Forward is through The Popilar Frunt for the Libarition of Scotland. (They’re not good spellers.) Let there be no doubt about that.
Reblogged my comment of September 30th 12:47 on https://scotland is different.wordpress.com.
https://scotlandisdifferent.wordpress.com
What you are evidently missing in that blog of yours is that most of the people here on WGD these days are “refugees” from WoS, and are the contributors who largely made its BTL worth reading when it was worth reading. The old spirit of WoS is here! The denizens there these days are a residue of obvious BritNat trolls and a chorus of bitter know-nothing follow-my-leader arrivistes who have no plan except “off with her head”.
Save your false equivalencing for the BBC.
I see the heavy team have been sent in to “convert” us.
We heard you clearly in the other place, you drowned out our voices so we left given that debate had been ended by the righteous zealots.
Have any of you paused to consider the democratic right of SNP members to decide their options.
People who declare loudly that they are not members, that they have left the Party.
What gives you the right to dictate to us?
Great post Julia. I have often contemplated joining the Snp and have friends who are members. However some of what they have told me re what goes on in branches has been enough to put me off. I am not persuaded that most of the whingers who turn up here saying they have left the party because NS or Snp don’t want Indy etc were ever members of the party in the first place. If they were there were a lot of delusional nutcases in it.
Post 2014 there were many disgruntled Labour supporters who decided to support the SNP instead but some were unhappy with the way the branches operated and how some of the systems work, they were used to shouting loudly and getting what they wanted by weight of numbers in the Labour party but the SNP doesn’t work in the same way, it’s a bit more democratic than Labour were and take more account of what the public at large feel and not just the members
Some folks can’t get out of the habit of not doing that and that’s why Labour lost and keep losing
I have noticed the delusional conspiracy nutcases have multiplied since start of the year. Part of me wonders if some of them are disillusioned Corbyniystas who have been hanging about on that other blog too much now that Labour have turned to the Blairite side of the force again
Hear hear
”I see the heavy team have been sent in to “convert” us.”
Convert? 🤣🤣🤣 That’ll be the day. They didn’t achieve their aim ”elsewhere”, so we can take it that the stalkers most definitely won’t do so on here.
So many comments today asserting that the SNP and NS are not worth voting for. Any chance that voter suppression is the motive? I agree with Grizebard upthread. If the unionists can’t persuade the majority of Scots to stay in the union then they resort to voter suppression.
Take it as a compliment Paul that your excellent post has provoked the expected reaction. Keep calm and carry on.
I did expect it to be honest. But I felt that it had to be said. The biggest threat to independence is Scottish Indy Puritanism.
Yes I think it is a definite case of we have met the enemy and they are us. Puritanical Indy supporters are an embarrassment to themselves and Scotland
and then there’s Peter A Bell…
Yeah but he doesn’t agree with anybody on anything
That was funny. True too.
But I always think if a Peter A Bell didn’t exist we’d have to invent one.
Now Dr Jim get it right. He agrees with himself on absolutely everything 😀.
After the James Kelly spat his site was positively monstered by the same people who appeared anonymously, it was horrible
Oh you should see some of the comments that haven’t made it past moderation. Racist, homophobic, misogynistic abuse.
Well said Capella
On Wings, I posted a list of 47 SNP MSPs who are currently sitting and appear to be standing again next year. It has since been deleted.
I asked for an alternative SNP leader to be nominated from that list. If not a current MSP, who the hell has the “right stuff” to be dropped into office as First Minister without a seat in our parliament?
For people so concerned about the ‘lack’ of a Plan B, they sure don’t seem to have one themselves.
”I posted a list …. It has since been deleted.” Interesting Alan but not surprising to us who know the site so well. A number of ”techniques” are utilised constantly to keep the sheeples onside.
They have ruined one website. White noise. Please do not let them ruin another. Groundhog Day. Moderate. There are others.
The membership of the SNP is 120,000 and increasing. For anyone that leaves more join. The highest (pro rata) of any political party. Please stop telling lies. Liars always get found out.
Dedicated people from all walk of lives that want to make the lives of people better. They have done more than a good job. To be continually criticised by some ignoramuses. Often with nothing of reason or decency to commit or offer. Democracy. Just when things are starting to improve.
Vote SNP/SNP. Join contribute and commit. Good people and positive. Their dedication in spite of opposition have made things happen and improve. Protecting Scotland and the economy. Keeping people alive.
Well said Ken
The last six years the SNP Gov has brought in major improvement. Too numerous to mention. MUP, social care, carer allowance, education support, SNHS support. Elderly support. Elderly care. Kinship payments. Care payments. Baby boxes. Renewable investment. Investments in the economy. Low unemployment. Build essential roads, railways, bridges. An endless list. Some people have short memories. Mitigated cuts by £100Million (a year)
Too many good, excellent caring candidates.
The NHS needs £10Billion more funding. The Tories offered £3Billion. Cut the NHS funding £4Billion a year. From 2015 to 2020. £20Billion. When the necessary funding should have been increased. Cut education £6Billion a year. Increased student fees to £9,000 in the south.
I agree
The Scottish Social Attitudes survey is published today and there are some very interesting contrasts between how Scots contrast the parliament in Holyrood with that at Westminster.
https://natcen.ac.uk/blog/twenty-years-of-changing-attitudes-towards-holyrood-and-westminster
The Unionists ruined the electoral system in Scotland the list. PR, STV. Lesley Evans. A Westminster aided appointed civil servant. Gross interference.
Scotland would be Independent now, without the colossal, illegal interference. Liars always get found out.
i dont really get this, “support for indy has increased because of bojo, nicola has done nuthin'” etc. Such claims and even objections all rely on referring to the electorate in the singular, public opinion isnt A thing, Voters are not A thing. they are a multitude and as such have different opinions. some will move from no 2 yes cos they dont like boris, some because they like nicola but also some who now think the sky is the wrong shade of blue etc.
also, politicians always claim cause and effect for the policies they introduce with no evidence at all Things happen in the real world not because of what politicians do but inspite of their actions. Political parties dont win elections, governments lose them. Doing nothing is actually doing something
So whatever floats yer boat, if you think support for yes is due to Nicola or to Bojo, or both or neither, fill yer boots.
however, dont let your bickering miss the real point here.
support for yes is now above 50%+
The Unionist Parties ruined the electoral system in Scotland. Scotland would be Independent now without the gross, illegal interference.
I agree
Aye
With all due respect Paul calling out corruption, criminal activity & possible financial fraud is not puritanism and until the SNP are cleaned out from top to bottom (including Nicola Sturgeon herself if necessary) they will be in no position to lead an independence campaign no matter what the polls tell us
…in your opinion.
Fixed that for you.
One wonders if these same complainers ever complained about the actual enemy of our entire country or do they just save themselves for complaining about who the majority of their own country vote for, if indeed they live in Scotland at all because I have noticed a great many of them appear to live in the country we’re trying to extricate ourselves from and where and from whom do they get this rock solid unimpeachable evidence that they seem 100% convinced is all fact and are 100% convinced that if the people of Scotland knew about this they definitely wouldn’t support Independence and it’s their sworn duty to provide this unsubstantiated evidence because the *truth* must be known, they say, and to hell with the wrong kind of Independence as they don their funny looking top hats lace collars and black clothing to take forward their pitchforks and burning torches to cleanse Scotland of all this depraved and criminal activity they cannot prove a word of
But hey George Galloway and his chums said it so it must be true, even though Boris Johnson paid them to say it
There’s also been a great deal of Daily Express quoting from these same people who in the past claim that everything the Daily Express writes is all lies but now it appears all true they say
Agreed
There’s absolutely no proof that any part of what you’ve just said is true Graeme. In fact knowing the Weirs the ”story” that you were told in relation to them was a crock of sh*t. It’s all being churned out by a rumourmonger and you’re falling for it. And even if we do find out that some of it may be true, eventually, why are the attacks not being made on the Unionists politicians / parties right NOW? Why is ”’calling out (known) corruption, criminal activity & possible financial fraud” on a GRAND scale being totally overlooked in some quarters? You know the Unionists that are doing their damnedest to prevent us getting our Independence. The Unionists that see Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP as being the number one threat to ending their precious Union. Strange to say the very least.
Where is your evidence for “corruption criminal activity and possible financial fraud” Quack Quack oops there ain’t any According to you The snp needs cleared out from top to bottom, so we just disband the party that loads of us have supported for 40 years so people like you can set up the totally delusional Scottish Independence party- do jog on. Imaginary block button activated. Brrpp
well said Eilidh!
Bojo and Trump are big mouthed statement makers who tell lies that fall flat on their face in five minutes and most folk with half a mind who pay attention notice that
Both these men have no substance in anything they say and treat their respective electorate with complete and utter contempt by assuming the public are goldfish with no memory so that the lies can be denied the day after they uttered them because they have a majority of yes men standing behind them prepared to back up the lies, and of course they both use their power to threaten the media if they dare to expose these lies
Scotland’s FM has no such power and has increased her support by standing day after day informing the public of the facts and how they apply to their daily lives, this has been noticed by the public in Scotland and they like it appreciate it and now trust it, and because they trust what she says they now trust her as a leader that’s why the numbers are now in the mid 50s for Independence
Nicola Sturgeon is doing the ultimate politics by not doing politics, just by being herself and the only thing her opponents have to counter this is the stuff that people don’t want anymore, the stuff they reject, the stuff they’re fed up listening to, the huffing and puffing of old fashioned finger pointing arm waving blustering lies they keep doing over and over, Scotland has sussed it like they sussed the Labour party like they sussed the Tories before that
This moment right now is the final nail in the UK of England’s coffin as far as Scotland’s concerned, we all know how Scotland behaves, once we’ve made our minds up on something it’s done over finished, that’s what we’re doing and sod the Bastirts
So Independence is on it’s way that’s a dead cert and before the end of the day a wee birdy tells me more’s to come on it and will go bang tomorrow at FMQs because the opposition won’t be able to contain themselves this week
I predict a riot, as the song says, see me I’m really modren wae the use o the young lingo eh, mibbees naw
Thank you Julia
Oh I do wish there was a “like” button on here as there have been some really good comments from WGD regulars today in reply to the visitors from that other place!
“With all due respect Paul” . Respect? From people who have come on here to demonstrate their lack of respect? Lolz. You don’t know the meaning of respect. Hike back to where lack of respect for the genuine efforts of others is seen as a virtue. Where respect is viewed as being a failing. By people whose cynicism is to be celebrated. People who hysterically seek to diminish others lest we overlook how exceptional they are.
With all due respect Graeme, you need to learn some.
Mikes dropping everywhere today, Boom!
Well I don’t know Arthur on a positive note so many ”newcomers” have joined us that I expect to see some of them show their ”respect” for one of the few pro-Independence bloggers, if not the ONLY influential one now, by putting their hand in their pocket and financially supporting him and this site now. What do you think Arthur 😀?
I didn’t come on here to demonstrate disrespect to anyone Arthur, and I certainly don’t need any lessons from you, I only put forward an opinion, I have the the highest respect for Paul that doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything he says and I certainly don’t give a flying f*ck what you think
Dr Jim, I watched Nicola today as I always do. Her ability to calmly and genuinely update the country on the way forward and to slap down the snide efforts of the “media” is a joy to behold. I have no doubt that she is raising the confidence of Scotland’s population one day at a time and that is ABSOLUTELY the key to our independence. It is confidence alone that will swing the vast majority of our populace behind our goal.
To be honest, I am a bit staggered myself by her level of ability. She is the leader we needed – no disrespect to those who came before her – to win. She has the humility that genuinely accomplished people have and that is highly valued in Scottish culture.
Happy days.
The idea that the opposition is so poor making her look good is a pathetic argument, because if that were the criteria every politician in Britain is incompetent and that’s a nonsense
The FM is just on a higher level because she works hard and has learned how to do the job, that combined with her own personality sees her pretty unbeatable and inspires people’s confidence in her
If we’d had the powers of a normal country I’m quite sure things would have been immeasurably better in Scotland right now and more folk thank goodness can see that
Agreed
Dr Jim, in an earlier post, you said this:
“Right now Scotland has Nicola Sturgeon as FM and she to our luck is rated one of the best in the entire world at the moment…”
It’s a claim that I see regularly, in various forms. Where does it come from and what’s it based on? Have you ever sought to find out?
And this:
“…here we are today with a man who lost a referendum versus the woman who could win one…”
Are you seriously claiming that Alex Salmond was wholly and solely responsible for the loss of the referendum? Because that is what is suggested by your description of him as “the man who lost a referendum”. It’s about as stupid and egregious an insult as I can imagine, and a perfect example of the “tribalism” that you then go on to decry.
Agreed
An interesting post with respect to the massed assault, so many lurkers coming out of the woodwork with an audience primed, wave after wave of the Scottish Inquisition, your viewing figures must have gone through the roof with 331 comments at the time of writing… Less a case of shock and awe than schlock n’aw… Bravo all…
Ignore the naysayers from “another place” leave them to bump their gums in the the empty “Wings” and let the rest of us get on with the real job of gaining our independence,onwards and upwards.
Well said, just a shame that it needed spelling out so carefully. Let’s just hope the movement can keep both it’s enthusiasm and it’s nerve to the end.
I don’t understand why so many commenters here think that your article is directed at Wings. Because the person/people you are criticising are arguing, as you put it:
Whereas the position on Wings is very clearly the opposite:
I think it would be positive and constructive if you would correct your supporters on this issue – many of whom I am sure do not read Wings – and perhaps be more forthright in saying who it is that you are actually talking about.
What disingenuous nonsense. While the Man from Bath may claim such, he also advocates decapitating the SNP just a few months before a crucial election, removing a highly-effective leader who has done more by word and deed to convert many former ordinary “no” voters to the cause for independence than anyone, and for no discernable reason other than “my road or no road” served with lashings of pure personal spite. Whatever his weasel words, any visitor to his website these days can find nothing “positive or constructive” – all they can discern is an excess of bitterness and rancour (both above and below the line), a preaching to a wailing choir of random discontents that will convert absolutely no-one.
Yes! You are absolutely right and thank you for saying this.
what grizebard said.
Late to the party and for the record I am with WGD.
So glad this has been said ( and bravely so) I am too feart.
I agree entirely with this article. You can *just about* get 55-58% of people to back a ‘gold standard referendum’. If we had a “good standard referendum” tomorrow It appears it would be narrowly won. As in Brexit narrow. And then we would have 5 years of campaigning for indyref 3. Putting Nicola in a tank and declaring UDI, all whilst citing former USSR/third world colonies as examples is delusional and detached from reality, only a small minority want extreme solutions. You have to remember that for 60-70% of the population they just don’t care *that much*. The union isn’t *that bad* that they will endorse these radical ideas. It’s not the USSR.
Also, with plan b types, I don’t know why they can’t just rally behind the plan b people in the snp and support them internally rather than throwing a tantrum and setting up fringe parties. The most Scottish behaviour ever. No lack of passion, intelligence or effort, just a failure to appreciate the nature of politics in 2020.
Something I also think everyone takes for granted is the process after the vote. It seriously seems to be the case that many people think the yes vote is the end of the matter. It isn’t. Come off it! Labour and tories will immediately campaign for a 3rd referendum (or “a final vote when the terms of the final exit deal are known”. They will campaign to rejoin the union. That will be the dominant topic for 5 years. Every single set back (Perceived or otherwise) will be used As the “change of circumstances”. The Eu makes an unhelpful comment? Change of Circumstances!, some banks pretend to leave Edinburgh “Change of circumstances”!. Currency issues look harder than first thought? “Change of circumstances!”
The “deal” doesn’t look so good (deliberately derailed by WM)? ‘We need a final vote on the terms now we know the harsh reality of the awful Indy deal”. I can see the headlines now, with Ruth moaning on about how the snp Are hypocrites for not allowing a final vote, when they campaigned for the very same in Brexit.
We demand a new referendum – you got your second go! “No one knew how terrible the economic impact would be!”
It won’t matter if it’s true. The media will be playing wall to wall propoganda on how terrible everything is, and it will sway opinion and scare people. It will be way worse than the media after Brexit- who essentially rallied round and didn’t go to wild. This is Scotland – the media will screech and scream with its dying breaths.
Do we seriously think Ian Murray and `Annie wells will sit down the day after and participate in the process of independence? No! They will campaign for a re-vote. We know this from the Brexit process. The snp will have to survive this part of the process during the transitional phase, and *they* will be the ones denying a final vote on the terms. I belive they will be justified in doing so provided that there are no major serious change of circumstances.
My point is that, the process after a gold standard section 30 style yes vote will be arduous. Our domestic politics will take time to be normalised away from “do we stay independent or re-join the Union” for at least 2-3 years in my view.
This process will be survived in my view. Just.
Imagine that process, but it follows some informal or internationally unrecognised UDI. We wouldn’t stay independent;
People will say “not one country becoming independent has ever gone back”. This ain’t any country, it’s Scotland where a large part of the political class are obsessed with the union. I think we seriously underestimate the resistance they will put up even after a successful yes vote.
David you make some very interesting and well argued points. I think some of us are keen to get things moving as we might not be alive to see independence happening! But you are right to point out that a yes vote wouldn’t be the end of the struggle. My daughter in law’s native country, Estonia, became independent in 1992 from the USSR and it’s probably taken them 20 years to really get where they wanted to be. It was totally worthwhile and they are now a thriving little European country – as we will be – but you are right we shouldn’t underestimate the challenges