Six years on

liberalopinion

Today it’s the sixth anniversary of the independence referendum of 2014. We all know what happened on that day, how hopes were dashed and dreams evaporated, but six years later the independence movement is still here, still strong, and still setting the Scottish political agenda. Our hopes and dreams are very much alive. It was far from inevitable that things would turn out that way.

Scotland voted No in 2014 conditionally. A majority of people in this country elected to give the British state the benefit of the doubt. They gave Westminster one last chance to redeem itself, to prove itself, and to follow through on the promises and commitments that Westminster politicians made to Scotland. The pledges of love. The heartfelt pleas not to leave but to lead. The cries that we were needed and wanted. They all proved as hollow as what passes for a soul in the Conservative party. Scotland wasn’t just disappointed by what happened after that No vote, it was traduced, betrayed, and insulted.

We are where we are now because of the historic failure of the British state and British politicians to follow through on the promises and commitments that they made to the people of Scotland in order to win that No vote in 2014. If they had indeed ensured that Scotland’s ties to the European Union were safe, that the Scottish Parliament was inviolable, that devolution was entrenched and strengthened, that we were living in the closest thing possible to a fully federal state, there would still be those of us agitating for independence, but we’d be a small minority lost on the fringes of Scottish politics, has beens who’d never been in the first place. We are where we are now because the British state and the Conservative party in particular has lied, deceived, and trampled on the faith that the people of Scotland entrusted to it.

The Tories are unable and unwilling to grasp their own responsibility for bringing to an end the precioussss union that they profess to love. They could have their hard Brexit, or they could have their precioussss union. They’ve chosen Brexit. The Conservatives have killed the union with their arrogance and their enslavement to the demons of English nationalism. They killed it because they wanted both a union and a unitary state at the same time and in the same place. They killed it because they practised an extreme form of regressive nationalism while at the same time rejecting any notion that they could possibly be nationalists at all. The precioussss was crushed between the contradictions.

Now they are telling Scotland that up is down, that black is white, that undermining devolution is strengthening it, that removing our rights as European citizens is setting us free. Scotland doesn’t believe them. We watch the antics of the Clown Prince of Downing Street with a mixture of disgust, anger, and revulsion. This creature and his minions do not represent us.

We are in a far stronger position now than we were six years ago. Six years ago the challenge was to normalise the idea of independence, to get people in a country where the majority had never considered that Scotland could possibly stand on its own feet that the idea of independence was realistic. The independence movement not only succeeded in normalising the idea of independence, it made independence the single most important question in Scottish politics. The issue of independence is the fulcrum around which all other political considerations revolve. Even the Conservatives are now defined by their stance on the independence issue.

The experience of the pandemic, the greatest crisis that the world has faced since WW2, did not put Scottish independence back into its shortbread tin as British nationalists confidently expected when the gravity of the crisis was first grasped. Instead people in Scotland saw that their own institutions were perfectly capable of rising to the challenge, and have noted that Scotland began to do better once it diverged from the British Government’s guidelines. It has made people realise that Scotland doesn’t need Westminster to protect it from the big bad world, Westminster is holding us back.

As a nation, we have changed from the Scotland we lived in just six years ago. Every single age cohort in Scotland except the oldest now has a majority for yes. Amongst the younger generations belief in independence is overwhelming. The clock is ticking on the UK. We now have the longest period of consistent majorities for independence in opinion polling that we have ever seen. An even larger majority, according to a poll for Businesss for Scotland, expect that Scotland will vote yes the next time that we have a referendum. That means that even a substantial number of no voters accept that Scottish independence is a likelihood.

Public opinion in the rest of the UK is also shifting. As an avid reader of anything related to Scottish independence in the Guardian, the comments below the articles are often far more instructive than the articles themselves. In 2014 despite the best efforts of a doughty band of pro-indy posters, a large majority of the comments from those outwith Scotland expressed outright hostility, anger, and incomprehension at the idea that Scotland should seek independence. Now the tone has changed. The dominant sentiment is “I don’t blame them.” In the space of six years the majority of English liberal opinion has gone from “We love you Scotland. Stay with us. You need us” to “Get out while you can. Save yourselves.”

The scare story tactics of the British nationalists, designed for internal Scottish consumption, have also begun to backfire. For years they’ve told Scotland that it’s an economic basketcase utterly dependent on the goodwill of English taxpayers. But English taxpayers have also been listening and they’re going increasingly resentful of an unhappy Scotland which rejects the Brexit project. A majority of Conservative voters would now cheerfully see the back of Scotland. Together with the shift in English liberal opinion this means that there is no longer the bedrock of support within England for keeping Scotland in the UK that there was in 2014.

Nothing is inevitable in life or in politics, but unless something unforeseen happens Scotland is clearly on a trajectory that only ends in independence. That wasn’t the case in 2014. It’s not going to be an easy path. It won’t be a smooth road. It’s going to require discipline, determination, and a lot of work. But the fact remains that the chances of independence are higher now than they ever were before.

A Scotland which is resolved to seek independence is a very recent developement. Had we pressed ahead with a referendum before now, we could very well have lost and then there would be nothing but grief on this sixth anniversary of a dream that didn’t die. Instead we have our hopes, we have our dreams, and we can see that they are becoming ever more solid and substantial. For all our movement’s internal disputes and arguments about strategy and tactics, the incontrovertible fact is that the independence movement is alive, kicking, and still setting the Scottish political agenda. And more than that, we can see victory ahead.

There’s no podcast today as I was unable to fix a date and time with the person I was hoping to have on this week. There will be a podcast next week, and hopefully the person who I was hoping could be on today can appear in some future episode.


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69 comments on “Six years on

  1. […] Wee Ginger Dug Six years on Today it’s the sixth anniversary of the independence referendum of 2014. We all know […]

  2. Bob Lamont says:

    A well constructed fillet as a fallback, and a timely one too…
    My abiding memory will always be the crassness of Cameron’s EVEL announcement the following day, and it’s been “we won, get over it” ever since… The “we” was never England anyway, but a small well-heeled subset well connected to those who could manipulate public opinion with a specific agenda, their profit and their power, the confection of British Nationalism their plaything..

    Scotland is not dying, England is not dying, but confected British Nationalism is….

  3. MLH says:

    Brilliantly concise Paul. Offer the ‘oldies’ a decent pension (EU average say) and ‘jobs a goodun’.

  4. Welsh Sion says:

    This should be fun.

    Any Questions? BBC Radio 4 8pm tonight features, amongst others:

    Adam Price, MS – Leader of Plaid Cymru
    Dickie Lamebrain, MSP- Leader of ‘Scottish’ Labour

    Just rec/d notification from Plaid Cymru. ‘

  5. Republicofscotland says:

    Grima Wormtongue, aka Malcolm Rifkind,says there’s no justification for a second independence referendum.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/18731854.watch-malcolm-rifkind-claims-no-basic-justification-indyref2/

  6. David Agnew says:

    far from being an endorsement of union, it was a stay of execution. Had it not been for Brown’s intervention the union would have lost.The union was given a last chance to prove that it was worth the bullshit we have had to endure since day one. Those that swithered were convinced on four things. The economy. The EU. The safety of the EU and finally extensive new powers. Not less power. More power. And not power on loan or begged for, but real power in the hands of the Scottish executive to enact the will of the voter.

    Day 1 after the vow, there was the announcement of Brexit. Plans to sell of the NHS via TTIP (heartily endorsed by Labour). An economy dipping into recession. The unionist parties working together to ensure Scotland gained no significant powers. Most of that was knocked into a cocked hat when Brexit hit. But now we are looking at a collapse of the UK economy. A UK gov stealing money and power from Scotland and making councils beg for funding, in the idiotic belief that this will make people want to be “British” The unionists are now pro Brexit. Scottish labour MPs were implicated in a plot to silence the Scottish Government at the BBC. Lib Dems are still a bunch of useless wee fannies.

    I often hear from the more “staunch” no voter that we should respect their vote. I would say to them, that they really should be getting Westminster to respect their vote. Because quite frankly from where I am sitting, it looks like Westminster took a huge crap over their “British” identity and wiped its arse with that no vote

  7. Welsh Sion says:

    You will be aware of the open secret of ‘Scottish’ Tories and ‘dark money’ – even if Ruthie tries to avoid talking about it.

    Well, just to add to the brew, here are their cousins, the ‘Welsh’ Tories dipping their hands into various pots.

    https://nation.cymru/news/welsh-conservative-mps-receive-over-30000-in-dark-money-over-12-months/

    Tories – the same all over. Dontcha just love … erm .. hate ’em?

  8. Brian Mckenna says:

    As usual on the money i am always a bit down when the day comes round again .Then i remember the feeling that seemed to rise everyone said fuck it i,m no givin up .Remember we had a holiday booked to Gairloch on the 20th .We had a tour round ardnamurchan lighthouse .The old boy who gave us the tour used to be a keeper there .It was a beautiful day absolutely stunning view from the top .We were standing looking out and the old fella asked us what we thought of the result .We both said we were really disappointed .He stood silent for a while then said he had voted no and his friend who was the same age as him and also had been a keeper and did the tours would not speak to him. He was nearly in tears .I felt so sorry for him he deeply regretted his vote .I hope he managed to patch up his friendship . He had beleived all the lies about pensions and food shortages . Why i will never forget or forgive the Unionists.

    • grizebard says:

      Apropos that sad story, Brian, I think there were quite a few “no” voters who, the day after, felt they had let themselves and the country down by being just a little too defeated by the amplified uncertainty. Like we yessers, they also felt the loss of a beautiful dream, a wonderful opportunity. (Hence the big SNP vote the year after – buyers’ regret.)

      Next time, we need to find a way of cutting through the blizzard of economic fiction that again will be pushed by the likes of the BBC and dubious dark-money-funded operations masquerading as “think tanks”, and instead we should remind these former-no’s of the immense feeling of loss they felt last time, and of the sorry litany of heavy-duty BritNat reneging we all have had to endure ever since.

  9. william purves says:

    After the independence referendum, the Tories had to come up with EVEL, because the British Parliament is NOT sovereign, it is the English Parliament that is sovereign. As per the agreement between Scotland And England before the treaty could be signed.

  10. Dr Jim says:

    It never ceases to amaze what folk will fall for and am reminded of the BBCs James Cooke in George Square live on TV when he stuck a microphone under the FMs nose and claimed he had seen the email that incriminated her secretly colluding with the French Ambassador in a conversation about preferring David Cameron to Ed Miliband, of course on investigation it was proved no such conversation or email ever happened or existed but that didn’t stop the huge row the Tories and Labour and the Media made of it and ended up in court because folk love to believe the easy thing if it suggests something bad will happen or somebody did a bad thing, like Gordon Brown told Scottish pensioners there would be no more blood transfusions in an Independent Scotland which was a complete and total international lie

    It’s human nature to fall for stupid when presented with stupid by people who keep their faces straight when they lie, the bigger the lie the more stupid folk become, and the bad folk who do the lying know that

  11. I always knew there would be a certain section of the population that no matter what would never vote yes but I can’t help feel the polling numbers should be higher because I’m an anorak and I have been paying attention to the absolute horror show since 2014. I understand some not as interested may only now becoming aware of how shit things are. I think this is another great piece and I believe articles like this are playing a massive role in pushing the numbers up.

  12. Welsh Sion says:

    Ok, I know I’ve posted this on more than one occasion here. But I believe the continuity of the lyrics are all-important – in your case in Scotland, as well as in ours in Wales. (The original song was conceived after the disaster following the defeat of the limited devolution proposals on offer in 1979.)

    Six years on for you – and you’re still here, marching stronger than ever. (And, heck, look how far Cymru has come in the same time, too!)

    So … all together now:

    “Despite everybody and everything
    We’re still here!”

  13. Hamish100 says:

    Hadn’t seen a neighbour for a few days. Turns out he was away golfing with mates. How did he manage that? — said he got tested —wee white lie about cough and temperature, pals likewise so they felt safer travelling in the car.

    Sods.

  14. velofello says:

    Constancy to purpose Welsh Sion, constancy to purpose. And so exasperating to your opponents.

  15. Martin Laidlaw says:

    “Generation thoughts ” An indyref could take place in 2021.. That will be 7 years since the last one . (3 General Elections since) All over 9 year olds from 2014 will now be elgible to vote in 2021.(they are also able to be married, join the army and start families.) A 16year old in 2014 is now 23.(Bit of a generational difference ?) A 16year old in 2007(SNP first government) is 30 in 2021.(they only know a SNP Scottish Government all their adult life) Polls reveals 84% of u25s & 73% of 25-34 for indy. The Young generation say yes.It really is a case of when not if.

  16. Capella says:

    It’s a sad event to remember. The campaigning was brilliant and inspiring. The died-in-the-wool unionists were dismal and bitter. Still are. But its so good to see many former NO voters turning to YES. Once you arrive at YES you don’t go back. It indicates that people are gaining in self confidence. The cringe is dying.

    I believe the main reason for optimism is that years of seeing the Scottish Government delivering policies that Scottish people want demonstrates that a better society is possible. In contrast, Westminster Tories have demonstrated that the greedy and corrupt rule of oligarchs destroys whatever social cohesion the UK ever had. We don’t want that here. We can choose to reject it. I believe that we will soon choose life (to coin a phrase). 🙂

    • The NO voters the unionists have been coming out of the woodwork this last week or so
      Two things triggered it
      The NHS protect scotland app not working on phones older than iPhone 6 ( what does)
      The six and two household rule

      • grizebard says:

        There’s already been more than a million uptakes of the app, and it follows the Irish approach, so is well road-tested (unlike another we could mention). So a success, I would have thought, but of course that can’t be seen to happen by the usual media suspects, eh? There’s always some random grumbler they can find for the occasion.

        Some of us don’t even have the damn things, but that’s no reason to moan about those who do.

  17. Collective chins up folks! 6 years ago we were dead in the water.

  18. Part 2 ……For those amongst us who believe that “Boris will just say NO” is a possibility, ask yourselves this question.

    If you were Boris and after a landslide victory for the SNP in the next Holyrood election you intended to just say NO, why would you allow this election to happen in the first place? The last remaining argument of the unionists is basically that the people of Scotland don’t want independence or indyref2. An SNP victory at the next Holyrood Election (HE) of 50%+ (recent polls consistently saying this is very likely) would blow the unionists last argument out of the water.

    There are those of us who would cry that the fallout from such an action would be tremendous pushing even more nos to yes, and they would be right, but I doubt the fall out from “Boris just saying NO” AFTER an election would be much worse to “Boris just saying NO” TO and election. If I were Boris, it is what I would do. We should be considering wrong footing Boris and calling the Holyrood election forward to December. If Holyrood shuts it’s game over

    Across social media, there are indy supporters decrying the passing of the Internal Market Bill and the stripping of powers from Holyrood and demanding that someone ie. the SNP should do something. Anything!!. I hate to rain on folks parade but there is nothing, except complaining, that can be done. Even if it breaks the Treaty of Union, Westminster can simply pass a law making it legal. The only reason they are concerned about breaking the Good Friday agreement is the threats from the EU and US. I wish we has such powerful friends but we dont. We are on our own.

    We have never had a majority for independence,We have had a mandate for indyref2

    2014= 45%

    2015= 49%

    2017= 38%

    2019= 45%

    We now have consistent polls at 50%+ It is imperative these opinion polls are converted into an actual election result.

    Plan A is to win the next HE on a manifesto demanding indyref2 and a Section 30.This is very achievable. 45% of the vote will win us a mandate for indyref2, whether Boris agrees to a S30 is a different matter which I covered in my previous post.

    The last power that can be stripped from us is the power of the will of the people. But that isnt just for supporters of independence it also includes unionists. Nothing can force unionists to vote in indyref2. Nothing. One can argue that people who don’t vote don’t count but I can guarantee that people will count them. Ask the Catalans!

    I proposed a Plan B whereby we turned the HE into an independence plebiscite. while polls do go up and down” and “complacency, taking voters for granted” etc. is exactly why the Scottish Labour Party’s annual conferences are now reduced to 2 auld men and a dug shivering in a phone box, We are now down to the wire.

    We have been on this journey for a very long time and for all of us this road since 2011, it has become a veritable roller coaster. We are now faced with forces who are determined, by whatever means, fair or fowl, to derail us. One way or another, our journey is going to end and our next move is critical, It maybe our last. Without Holyrood, we lose our ability to affect change, the next vote will be for Westminster in 5 years where even if 100% vote SNP, there will still be no mechanism for Scotland to leave this union. So if the next HE happens it should be considered as our very own Last Drop in the Grassmarket

    The benefits of turning HE into an indy plebiscite are voter participation. While unionists can and many will boycott indyref2, even if we have a S30, they have no plans or reason to boycott a HE.

    Secondly, no matter how many powers Westminster strips from Holyrood they can’t stop our candidates from expressing their belief in an independent Scotland. More importantly, they cant stop you from voting for them. No matter what happens after the election, having a 50%+ election result in favour of independence, in our back pocket, will be infinitely preferable to pointing to an opinion poll. It will give our elected representatives authority to speak and negotiate for all of Scotland.

    Thirdly, the polls are in our favour. I personally believe the polls weighting is 3% higher than it should be, but even taking this into consideration, a 50%+ result for the SNP is very achievable. However, I would wait until the campaign is launched and the Tories have committed to the election, launched their usual manifesto of “no indyref2, no independence” before we announce our intention of turning the election into an independence plebiscite. This would also enable us to keep an eye on the polls until the very last minute before committing ourselves to this plan of action.

    Lastly, not all unionists are “staunch”. A 50%+ vote would convince many soft unionists that the demand from fellow scots for independence should be respected. Denying this would be to admit to themselves that there is no union

    The disadvantages of turning the HE into an indy plebiscite are, if we only get 49%, we wont have a mandate for independence and if we dont mention indyref2 in the manifesto, we wont have a mandate for that either.

    But cast your minds back to 2016, we faced a similar dilemma, should we or shouldnt we put indyref2 into the manifesto, If we did and remain had won the Euref, we would be forced into holding indyref2 before we were ready, if we didnt include indyref2 in the manifesto and leave had won, we wouldnt have a mandate. In the end, a compromise of words was found that gave us the choice of doing both. “We would hold indyref2 in the even of major change, such as being pulled out of the EU against our will etc” I’m sure something like this could be done for the next manifesto. Eg,

    “Independence, nothing less, Vote for us and we will pursue Scotlands independence by whatever means necessary, the scottish legal system, or the English courts, the ECHR, whatever it takes, even by indyref2 if necessary..”

    there are better wordsmiths who can write this stuff but you get the idea.

  19. Statgeek says:

    The biggest threat will be the London media. Every little gripe will be magnified out of proportion (Jim Murphy ‘Fundily Mundily’ egging).

    Every argument made by unionists will be seized on by the media as a victory for unionism. Every argument made by nationalists will be poo-pooed by a collection of Con/Lab/Lib/UKIP types in a London sofa coffee klatch.

    If they load the panels 4-1 or 5-1 like last time, the Indy voices will get drowned out. If they allow the English political classes get involved (and they will) it’ll be 10-1 audiences, and the Scottsih voices will get drowned out.

    Hence why I advocate Scots taking it off the televised and printed media where possible. Don’t let them set the agenda. Don’t play by their rules and at their pace. Throw down the gauntlet. Demand their Plan A, their Plan B, and if they have a Plan B to a good Plan A, they’re lying.

  20. There is a majority of young people in favour of Scottish independence
    But at present these young young are criticising Nicola Sturgeon SNP Scottish government because they don’t see logic in having to go to work during the week
    ( many have had furlough ended and are back in the workplace)
    but can’t go out at the weekends to pubs clubs etc because of social distancing rules

    They are saying it’s Nicola sturgeons fault
    that she has the power to close things down again
    and should either close it down again or open the pubs clubs as normal

    Many are unaware that furlough is controlled by Westminster and they appear increasingly to be less inclined to accept that those who are less likely to be seriously ill or die from it
    have a duty to do what’s necessary to avoid those who are likely to get seriously ill or die from it getting it e.g older , sick , disabled people.

    This possible divide could become a political as well as a social problem

    There are a lot of people who have been told by their employer to go back to work
    even though the Scottish government policy is still work from home if possible

    Well for weeks and weeks it was possible
    but then many employers decided to instruct employees who had been working from home
    to return to the workplace
    WHY ?
    If it was possible to work successfully from home all those weeks why have many employers
    against Scottish govt advice told people to return to the workplace ?

    Around the world some of the biggest companies ,employers , are making work from home permanent
    Why not here ?

  21. One of the reasons why young people and others for that matter, are losing the will for isolation rules is that hardly anyone knows someone personally that has died or been seriously ill with it.
    The couple of people I know that got it kept it very quiet that they had been in hospital with it.

    The media normally seeks people out to interview then when disaster befalls but with this covid we have seen none of that , no interviews asking people how they think they got it where they think they got it how it affected them are they fully recovered now how did friends relatives work react.
    There’s been nothing in six months since it started, that to me suggests it’s being blanked out on purpose by the media.

    Right at the start we had tv programmes / news reports from hospitals in Italy and Spain with reporters in full PPE interviewing doctors , pictures of people on ventilators etc but since then
    nothing , not even those recovered being interviewed…that’s odd don’t you think

    • No, instead we have silver haired pot belied men in pink shirts and their fulsome figured wives burnt lobster red from two weeks being pampered hand and foot by underpaid Greek, Spanish or Portuguese servants at poolside bars, moaning their heads off, and predominantly 17 and 18 year old girls, obligatory I phones at the ready, interviewed at airports moaning about quarantines, and it’s that Nicola Sturgeon’s fault, spoiling their holidays, birthday parties, or karaoke nights at their local.
      It’s all Nicola Sturgeon’s fault according to Brewer, Hutcheon, Gordon, Garavelli, Wark, and the lad doon the chip shop who swears he’s Elvis.

      We have had 7 months of our MSM backing the law breakers, and giving them air time and column inches,demanding that they can continue to be selfish bastards, and blaming the bad SNP for failing to handle the outbreak; especially that Nikla Sturgeon.

      I have no doubt at all that the two lads who have been charged with organising the 300 strong rave at the posh mansion are from well heeled families who have the ‘unseen hand’
      of the Elite ensuring that their names never appear in print or broadcast, and that their day in court will be deferred for months, until it all blows over, and their trial reported in the Mugdock monthly advertiser and the Usual MSM Suspects make an ‘editorial decision’ to ignore it all together.

      They are getting away with it, and killing their fellow Scots by their hedonism and belief that because of their wealth, their family’s place in this evil hierarchy, or their anti social psychopathy, they don’t give a damn that others die while they chuck half a bottle of Hennessy Brandy on the sprawling lawns of a £1800 a night mansion, and they flee into the night, laughing their privileged little heads off as our exhausted police try to keep a lid on the arrogant chaos.

      Meanwhile millions of us are expected to say nothing, be ‘nice’ to these spoilt people, for fear of being branded curtain twitchers by tired BBC hacks…

      WE are at tipping point now.

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Strewth you’r right Terence, hadn’t thought of that until you raised it.
      PQ et al would normally be over personal viewpoints like a rash, with the antisemitic hunter dispatched to all corners for set-pieces… Compared to their expansive dredging over child deaths in QEUH and alleged SG Care-Home scandals, the difference is glaring…

      Aside occasional interviews from England or Wales on a doctor’s trauma or a long-termer recovering, there’s clearly been a politically imposed news blackout in England for even the most basic of info such as conveyed in the Updates in Scotland.
      The young lad whose video the FM recommended the young watch was a rare example from a Scot, perhaps on Sky ?

      Don’t think I’ve been quite so aware of media control by government, but it’s not odd, it’s sinister….

  22. deelsdugs says:

    Great post Paul. Thanks.
    It was a very sad day indeed and caused some major grief between the negative, blinkered brit-identity and the disillusioned, disheartened and horrified Scot with the stupidity of letting the country down.
    Changed days now though for many a no voter.

  23. Dr Jim says:

    The BBC not content with trying to ban Scotland’s FM from continuing the daily health briefings unsuccessfully have now announced that they will *enhance* the briefings by inviting comment from Labour and Tory politicians for *balance* they say, and they will include *experts* to discuss the content of the briefings

    So they couldn’t *get* the FM on politicising the daily briefings so now the BBC are going to politicise the briefings themselves and attempt to undermine the health information by employing their own BBC chosen *experts*

    So we await the expertise of the dog food man on health and the economics of the Pandemic and Murdo Frasers laser like focused knowledge of how the health secretary and the FM don’t know what they’re talking about, maybe we’ll get Sir Ian Wood on to tell us how the oil’s running out next Tuesday and that’ll have a profound effect on Scotland’s inability to become strong enough to cope with all the other pandemics that are coming down the line

    So back to the studio where our *experts* will rubbish everything the bad Essenpee just told you

    Nicola Sturgeon has no intention of letting the Westminster government use the BBC and media to control the narrative like they were allowed to in the run up to 2014, she’s refused to do the deal with them so the opposition have to find ways to inveigle themselves into a position where they can undermine her by pretending to the public they’re trying to help while actually what they’ll try to do is refute everything she says resulting in what they’ll hope for, confusion

    The BBC and the opposition might as well blow themselves up if they do this, we won’t need a demonstration outside Pathetic Quay telling them to F***k off because the public will see right through it

  24. Scozzie says:

    Do any of the BTL commentators have an opinion on the Peter Murrell communication to Sue Ruddick? I’m curious as to why this news is being ignored in the BTL comments, given this thread is about the 6th anniversary of the referendum and the communication is about the very person who gave Scotland its referendum. I would have thought it was a relevant discussion point, bringing us up to date on the political manoeuvres of the SNP hierarchy. Perhaps not.

    • Dr Jim says:

      I suppose not many people care about David Cameron *allowing* the 2014 referendum to take place under his control and as to the SNPs political manoeuvres nobody knows what those are except for the opposition to them who have to invent and guess what that is

      • Scozzie says:

        I think you know fine well I wasn’t referring to David Cameron. Are you suggesting the Scottish Government was ‘allowed’ a referendum – what deference to WM you display. To me it seemed more like a negotiated political agreement. If you care to bring yourself up-to-speed you will note there’s not much invention, but evidence coming out more and more of conspiracy. Care to explain away the Peter Murrell communication or is it still sssshhh let’s focus on how bad the Tories are? Corrupt government is no good for anyone whether down in WM or HR.

        • Hamish100 says:

          People are allowed to,send texts and emails whether you approve of them or not.

          Conspiracy theorists do enjoy a few leaked texts.

          Me I’m interested in not being diverted from Independence but then that is just me.

          • Scozzie says:

            Ok so let’s imagine you have an allegation of sexual assault in the workplace (remember this was AS workplace no different, except he is governed by the Ministerial Code).
            An internal investigation happens and a report is handed to the police to investigate. Would you think it right and proper for the CEO, where you work, to ask that pressure is put on the police and the more fronts you have to firefight the better?
            Or would you expect your CEO to hand over the investigation report, be no more involved and let the police do their work with no interference?
            Just asking….coz these are not just friendly communications between colleagues; but are an indication of conspiracy to influence police in the allegations. Surely you can see that? If not, I despair of the willful ignorance of what’s staring you in the face.

    • grizebard says:

      Oh, a second O/T try at this. But this has probably been done to death over the way already (where you likely came from). It’s really their kind of thing.

    • Capella says:

      Scozzie – I’m waiting for the Harassment Committee hearings where all parties will give their versions of what happened in person. Daily Record transcripts of WhatsApp messages, which give no context, include ellipsis with no indication of what has been redacted and by whom, and ambiguous statements which can be read either way, are not a basis for serious discussion.

      Innocent until proven guilty and the jury is still out.

  25. grizebard says:

    Whoops, apologies for the repeat, but somehow posted this mistakenly on the previous thread yesterday, when it was meant for here…

    It does seem that people down south are increasingly dividing into two camps, both of which – ironically – work in our favour.

    Firstly, those of a liberal disposition, as Paul says, who regretfully but decently wish us to gain the future for ourselves that they are currently thwarted from having. (But some of whom might eventually begin to regard Scotland as a lifeboat for themselves also.)

    The other group we also recognise quite well, the types who would much prefer to have a pure Brexit all of their own, have heard and rather believe the propaganda directed at us and would be glad to see the back of we “whinging spongers”. (May they continue to labour under that misapprehension until we are well gone!)

    This leaves a remainder who really know little-to-nothing about the matter and don’t care much either way. Possibly will feel somewhat offended when they eventually begin to realise we are “spurning” their “generosity” at treating us as honorary English, but will soon get over it since it matters little to them anyway.

    There’s not many left besides! Just the Brenglish Establishment – across the political spectrum – who are loath to lose the home end of their much-reduced little empire, and fear the consequent loss of self-esteem, but aren’t prepared to lift a little finger to turn the situation around.

    All of England – even that latter lot – is already, I think, beginning to prepare itself for our departure. And the more inevitable it begins to look to them, the more this will turn into a chain reaction.

  26. Republicofscotland says:

    I didn’t know Amal Clooney was Britain’s special Envoy on Media Freedom, a post which she’s now quit. Mrs Clooney would’ve done well to realise that media freedom doesn’t exist within the UK a country she represented.

    Broadcasting isn’t devolved to Scotland it never will be, we have no media freedom in Scotland, such as in Catalonia or as in Moldova where a small ethnic group also has its own broadcasting channels.

    Of course from the outside, the UK looks like a one big happy family functioning well, the truth however couldn’t be further away from that image.

    • Dr Jim says:

      In every country in the world where I’ve travelled I’m English until I’ve told them I’m Scottish then every person in those countries smiles because they remember there’s a difference, that’s how successful British propaganda has been to wipe the memory of the worlds population that Scotland exists, Wales and Northern Ireland have had an even bigger problem existing

      The *British* have almost removed our status as countries from the conscious memory of the world so much so we’re even less than colonies

      • grizebard says:

        Actually, I would suggest that until recently, the rest of the world has had a far better appreciation of Scotland than we natives ourselves have had. (The others not being burdened by The Cringe, or having a frenemy fifth column within.) Ironically, thanks to the over-use of “England” by our supposed compatriots, and through their own historical background, others have generally retained a clear distinction. Which is why so very often the attitude changes when people hear you’re Scottish not English.

        Back in ’14, the family were chatting with a ranger in the middle of nowhere high up in the Colorado Rockies who, on hearing where we came from, told us of this book “How the Scots invented the modern world” by Arthur Herman, a book of which we were previously quite ignorant (thinking ourselves well-informed and all).

        So our reputations have preceded us. Maybe we should, all of us, appreciate better others’ appreciations of us. They are well-founded, and worth living up to.

      • Capella says:

        I found that even in Egypt hotel waiters were well aware of the difference and amused themselves by pretending to think we were English just to get the reaction. Same in Greece and other EU nations.
        Try mistaking a Canadian for an American or a New Zealander for an Australian. You’ll soon be telt. 🙂

  27. Republicofscotland says:

    Meanwhile Scotsman Andrew Marr is worried sick of what will become of his beloved England when Scotland becomes independent.

    Another Westminster party leader Ed Davey of the LibDems, has dismissed a second Scottish independence referendum as a distraction.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/18732578.libdems-ed-davey-dismisses-scottish-independence-distraction/

    • grizebard says:

      Sez Davey, the n-th iteration of leader of a party which has now abandoned every one of its former flagship policies, the last betrayal being its Brexit cave-in. I would suggest that as far as Scotland is concerned, it’s actually Davey and his dwindling band who are the distraction.

      As for Marr, boo-hoo-hoo. He has made his (proverbial) bed, now he can lie in it. (pun intended)

      • Dr Jim says:

        What is it with all these Scottish folk who live in England rabbiting on about Scotland all the time, haven’t they got a government down there they should be talking about instead of interfering in a country they don’t live in or even have a vote in, you’d think they’d be happy if Scotland became Independent then they wouldn’t have to worry their wee heads thinking about us anymore and maybe start thinking about fixing where they actually live

        Everything England decides affects Scotland financially and they never utter a stutter of concern about it, but everything Scotland decides doesn’t affect England financially, except when we threaten to withdraw our support from them then the rabbiting starts because it’s the only power we have and it’ll lose them money

    • Dr Jim says:

      Everybody should watch that wee video and share it everywhere they can

  28. Dr Jim says:

    Sir Ed Davey says the Scottish Liberal Democrats decide their own policy on Independence and always will under my leadership, in other words he says no and they *decide* to say no also

    • grizebard says:

      The problem for all three BritNat party branches twigs in Scotlandshire is that they are largely funded from down south, and “who pays the piper…”, etc. So when their politicos talk about “broad shoulders”, they are talking from their own narrow personal experience, not the country as a whole. They are so mortally scared they couldn’t survive financially in an independent Scotland, they are unwilling to even contemplate the possibility of standing on their own two feet. Even the Tories, for whom self-reliance is as much of a philosophy as anything they espouse.

      They may all have their airs-and-graces and their exceptionalism, but they are so bought-and-sold they don’t even realise it.

      • Dr Jim says:

        Indeed grizebard, all three Bringlish parties in Scotland would find it difficult to fund a tea party at the zoo between them if they were forced to depend on their own Scottish members, and once Scotland becomes Independent their head offices in the big England would soon cut them off funds wise because they were only ever branch offices anyway probably forcing them to admit they’re all the same party and merge into the one opposition

    • Welsh Sion says:

      If you think ‘Scottish’ Liberal Democrats are a mere twig, spare a thought (then again, maybe not) for the ‘Welsh’ Liberal Democrats.

      Traditionally, ‘the Party of Wales’, Home Rule (c.1870-1920),and David Lloyd George, they have NO MPs at Westminster and only 1 Member of the Senedd (MS) out of 60. She is one of the props (as Education Minister) who keeps the Labour-Liberal-Independent Government in power.

      Like Scotland, this could all change next May.

      Reminds me: Who listened in on Adam and Ricky Lacklustre on Any Questions? last night?

      • Capella says:

        Not guilty!

        • Capella says:

          I mean, of course, listening to Rich Tea Biscuit Lightweight. One can listen again if one has nothing else to do today. I think I will be weeding this afternoon. Poor Adam must have been bored rigid.

      • grizebard says:

        So, Ribald Lintfluff was on the programme. Did anybody notice?

        Yup, Wales once had a real heavyweight native Liberal PM, a wartime leader no less, and Scotland has had Gladstone as PM and Grimond as highly-respected Liberal leader (though both imported Englishmen), all of whom sincerely believed in Home Rule, so what they would think of the etiolated successors who have cravenly betrayed that proud tradition I hate to think.

        I do know what we think, though.

  29. David Neilson says:

    We must not be complacent. BoJo and Co are waiting for 01/01/2021. After that date the dogs will be loosed and the gloves will come off. The hedge funders will have taken their due and as the Civil Service has already been emasculated the legislation passed by the 80 MP majority will start to dismantle the welfare state (because we cannot afford such luxury in the circumstances). The legislation to destroy devolution in Scotland , Wales and Ireland will be passed in short order and the continuing plunder of resources will be set in stone because England is bankrupt without us. This scenario reflects what happened in Italy and Germany in the 1920s and 30s when the use of “legal” constitutional political moves brought the Fascists to power, The politicians of integrity who work legally must preempt the moves of D Cummings an Co who will move at speed and with total ruthlessness to make sure we never get our May elections or the referendum that is quite frankly not required. If the devolved nations do not act now they will become true vassal states of England and our children and grand children will suffer greatly.

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