Trashing the UK

toxicbritain
Daniel Hannan was a Conservative MEP who was at the forefront of the campaign to get the UK out of the EU. Even before the rest of the Conservatives succumbed to the nostrum of the sunlit uplands, the unicorns of free trade deals with former British colonies who’d be desperate to restore their links with the mother country, and the red white and blue cakeism of enjoying all the benefits of EU membership with none of the duties or responsibilities, Dan was there, waving his wee flag and preaching about the evils of an EU that imposed laws on the UK. Laws that the UK didn’t vote for. Laws that were devised by people whom the UK couldn’t vote out of office all by itself even though we won the war you know.

Now that the UK is officially out of the EU and well on its way to uplands that bear rather more of a resemblance to grey and desolate moors where serial killers have hidden the bodies, Dan is at something of a loose end. This is partly because he was deemed too weird even for a local Conservative association to adopt him as a Westminster candidate. Instead Dan now fills his days bringing joy to the world by penning articles in the Telegraph and other right wing publications in which he continues to preach the gospel of according to bunting.

In his latest piece, he believes he understands why there has been a surge in support for Scottish independence. It certainly can’t be because of Brexit, because Brexit is going to shower the above mentioned unicorns and cake on those sunlit uplands that we keep hearing so much about. Oh no. Scottish people would love Brexit, and they’d love the UK, if only it wasn’t for those pesky nats who keep, and I quote, “trashing the British brand”.

There is no problem with Brexit in Dan’s universe. The fact that from a Scottish perspective we are in exactly the same position, only for real this time, that he imagined the UK to be in as an EU member has flown by him. Quite possibly to one of those sunlit uplands that he keeps telling us about. There is no problem that Scotland is a part of a UK where its voice is unheard, where its parliament is undermined, and where the promises made to it have been traduced. None of this is real. The only thing that is real for Dan is that those horrible separatists keep saying nasty things about his beloved Britain.

According to Dan the rise in support for independence isn’t because of the coronavirus epidemic either. Scotland hasn’t really seen a Scottish Government which has delivered a more coherent and cohesive message. It didn’t really experience a much lower death toll once the strategy of the Scottish Government began to diverge from that of the British Government. And did so in the teeth of trenchant criticism from those British nationalists in Scotland who are now demanding to know why the Scottish Government didn’t diverge earlier and more decisively. The response of the Johnson administration in London hasn’t been chaotic, incompetent, and confused. But this is all just propaganda from bitter separatists who are hell bent on breaking up the most successful union the multiverse has ever seen.

Of course this last statement comes with the unspoken rider that we’re defining “union” as the UK and “successful” as “good for London and the South East”. Telling Scotland that the UK has been the most successful UK in history at funnelling wealth, capital, and talent into the maws of London and the South East wouldn’t persuade many to vote against independence. It would however be considerably more accurate. But hey, historical accuracy is just trashing the British brand.

The fact that Dan cannot and will never accept is that the British brand has of late been most spectacularly trashed by people like Dan. Brexit has unleashed an intolerant right wing xenophobia into British politics. It feeds upon a rosy nostalgia for an Empire long gone and for WW2 which was arguably the only time in history when the UK’s war was one that it didn’t go looking for and where our opponents were unequivocally the bad guys – and that was only because they were your actual Nazis. But despite this wallowing in nostalgia and the never ending crusade to stick union flags on everything, Dan tells us that “Unionism” is driven by practicalities and transactional politics, not by emotion and identity politics. Suuuure thing Dan. I’m sure that the British nationalist thugs who have developed a habit of beating up independence supporters and ethnic minorities in the centre of Glasgow are doing so purely out of a concern about the need for a central bank.

Let’s suppose however that Dan was right. Let’s imagine that we didn’t have Theresa May’s hostile environment or the Windrush scandal or institutionalised racism perpetuated by the British state. Let’s pretend that Brexit didn’t happen and that EU citizens who’ve chosen to live here we’re living in uncertainty and fear for the future. Let’s conjure up a reality where the UK wasn’t a colonial power. Let’s make believe that the UK really is an equal partnership of four nations who all happily and productively work together for their common good and the smaller ones aren’t dragged along in the political wake of the largest. You know, the UK that Dan thinks we all live in. The only way in which vile separatists could succeed in persuading a majority of the Scottish electorate that independence is the way to go would be if that electorate was blind to reality. In other words, Dan must think that we’re stupid. We seem to have heard that particular formulation before.

Dan’s is merely the latest addition to the angst ridden opinionating of British nationalists who are at a loss to explain the rise in support for Scottish independence without actually laying any blame at their own door. That’s the common theme in all these British nationalist analyses. It’s never their fault that more and more people in Scotland seek independence.

That’s the core conundrum of modern British nationalism in Scotland. In order to defeat the independence that they so fear, British nationalism has to face up to its own role in creating it. It’s the way in which Scotland has been marginalised and sidelined by the British state which is driving independence. It’s the way in which the British Government unilaterally undermines the settled will of the Scottish people which is driving independence. Solving these issues requires a radical and fundamental change in direction from the British state. It would mean owning up to the deceit of the Vow and the lies made in the Better Together campaign of 2014.

Support for independence is rising in Scotland because many in this country believe that the British parties and their leadership lied to us. For the British state to start to rebuild that lost confindence would mean admitting that they lied to Scotland. And that in turn would mean that they would destroy any case they hoped to make in a future referendum. Because if they have admitted to lying once, then we can’t believe anything they tell us in future. Either way, they’re screwed, and they know that they’re screwed. So instead they prefer to lash out, and rail against Scotland for having found them out. The UK’s reputation has been trashed by the Conservatives and Brextremists like Dan Hannon.


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79 comments on “Trashing the UK

  1. […] Wee Ginger Dug Trashing the UK Daniel Hannan was a Conservative MEP who was at the forefront of the campaign to get […]

  2. proudcybernat says:

    If you ask me, Dan sounds pretty desperate.

  3. bringiton says:

    Nice to see Macron lauding the Auld Alliance.
    Attitudes towards a reconstituted Scottish state are shifting big time in Europe,especially if England leaves without any agreement being reached on future cooperation.
    Leaving behind the pejorative language of the Britnats with regard to Scotland,we have to decide which union offers us the best prospects for the future.
    England is going to be in a desperate place following Brexit with little or no trade deals in place so their threats of blockading Scottish goods from crossing their border will ring hollow.

  4. lovely piece, Paul.
    The sight of B-Llister Jack tagging behind Johnson like the pet poodle he is, on Orkney, and the ‘Reservoir Dogs’ photoshoot outside Baxter’s with Jack, Douglas Ross (his ears doubtless still ringing to the phantom applause of the ghost workers within) on call, and Carjack Lawson behind them, his position in the Blue Tory firmament there for all to see; a backroom boy who months ago was Brutus in the Operation Arse conspiracy to topple the Flaxen Haired One.
    The following day, there was B-Lister Jack again, playing second fiddle to ‘Chief Secretary’ Stephen Barclay, feeding farm animals for the same compliant snappers, then stepping back to let the English snake oil salesman tell us Jocks off for not being down on our knees at his feet begging his forgiveness for our ingratitude when England doled us out some more of our own money/loans.

    I don’t know about the rest of you, but the sight of Johnson and Barclay, surrounded by the picked compliant Scots media telling us how lucky we are to have England managing our money for us summed it all up for me.
    They strut their stuff up here like conquering Roman generals, imperial masters before whom we Jocks should kneel in supplication.
    It was a stark and brutal a message as that. And there was Toodle Oo The Noo relaying the message to the waiting world.

    England says no, so back in your box, fellow Scots.

    “As long as mankind shall continue to bestow more liberal applause on their destroyers than on their benefactors, the thirst of military glory will ever be the vice of the most exalted characters.”

    The quote above from Gibbons’ Fall and Decline of the Roman Empire.

    Our MSM and broadcasters applaud our destroyers and present them as ‘exalted characters’ rather than the evil men they surely are.

    The ‘thirst for military glory’ echoed in Johnson’s stop off at Lossiemouth was the message…you are a conquered race, Scotland.

  5. Julia Gibb says:

    I have yet to here ONE Unionist explain the ten countries of the EU of similar size or smaller than Scotland survive and prosper? How does New Zealand function without London’s broad shoulders?

    Tale a look at the 100 countries not much bigger, similar size and many smaller who manage to function with few of the assets that Scotland has.

    The real question though is how did they manage to con so many Scots for all those years that they needed London.
    Look at our history pre Union. We had trade with Europe, A peaceful Nation ( except for the need to protect ourselves from an aggressive neighbour. The Nation of enlightenment when Edinburgh was the Athens of the North. A period when 20% of this Island of Great Britain was Scottish.

    Does anyone have the slightest doubt that we could manage our own affairs…apart from Dan!

    Look at those nearby – Ireland, Denmark, Iceland, Sweden etc

    What fools we have been to remain in this trap listening to endless glib promises.

    No more! Please! No more!

    • Hear hear, Julia.

      It is easily remedied. The next time one of them gets on their pins and declares that we are too poor, etc, we bombard his constituents with the facts. A personal letter to every voter in Perth or Clarkston or..oh wait, that Dick, Leonard doesn’t have any constituenst. we’ll send it to GMB members instead.
      We must flood the country with the truth, and blacken the liars.

  6. Gordon McN says:

    “It feeds upon a rosy nostalgia ….. for WW2 which was arguably the only time in history when the UK’s war was one that it didn’t go looking for …..”

    I used to think that. I changed my mind when I read this Preparata’s book (He’s an Italian American Academic):

    Conjuring Hitler: How Britain and America Made the Third Reich
    by Guido Giacomo Preparata

    You might change your mind too.

    • Welsh Sion says:

      Preview – Unavailable

      • Welsh Sion says:

        However – from Amazon:

        “Nazism is usually depicted as the outcome of political blunders and unique economic factors: we are told that it could not be prevented, and that it will never be repeated. In this explosive book, Guido Giacomo Preparata shows that the truth is very different: using meticulous economic analysis, he demonstrates that Hitler’s extraordinary rise to power was in fact facilitated — and eventually financed — by the British and American political classes during the decade following World War I. Through a close analysis of events in the Third Reich, Preparata unveils a startling history of Anglo-American geopolitical interests in the early twentieth century. He explains that Britain, still clinging to its empire, was terrified of an alliance forming between Germany and Russia. He shows how the UK, through the Bank of England, came to exercise control over Weimar Germany and how Anglo-American financial support for Hitler enabled the Nazis to seize power. This controversial study shows that Nazism was not regarded as an aberration: for the British and American establishment of the time, it was regarded as a convenient way of destabilising Europe and driving Germany into conflict with Stalinist Russia, thus preventing the formation of any rival continental power block. Guido Giacomo Preparata lays bare the economic forces at play in the Third Reich, and identifies the key players in the British and American establishment who aided Hitler’s meteoric rise.”

        • jistjr says:

          And here we are again Welsh Sion. British empire dragging us out of a power block for free trade which has enabled Peace for 50 years in Europe.
          Who said the past does not predict the future????

    • Dr John O'Dowd says:

      Preparata’s book is very important.

      It describes methods for procuring war (and hence geopolitical, economic and financial aims) that we recognised much more quickly and thoroughly, thanks largely to citizen journalists and the internet, in the case of the Blair-Bush illegal invasion of Iraq.

      And just as WWII was not the last time that the same (Anglo-American) imperial and geopolitical interests used lies, deception and secret funding to procure lucrative wars – as Iraq demonstrates – nor was it the first. Similar methods were used to procure, prosecute and needlessly prolong the First World War

      Scottish authors Gerry Docherty and Dr Jim MacGregor have conclusively demonstrated similar methods in their superb and very important books:

      “Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War”

      and

      “Prolonging the Agony: How The Anglo-American Establishment Deliberately Extended WWI by Three-and-a-Half Years. ”

      MacGregor and Docherty demonstrate that these methods have been used by the same nefarious interests for well over a century.

      These books are important reading for those who support Scottish independence. They show clearly the means and methods – we must describe as Standard Operating Procedures – used by Perfidious Albion to grab and retain “their” possessions.

      Be sure that they are active in our country right now!

  7. Welsh Sion says:

    Meanwhile, amongst the ‘Western Britons’ …

    https://nation.cymru/opinion/wales-scotland-independence-destroyer-uk/

    Why it could be Wales – not Scotland – that ends up as the UK’s unlikely destroyer
    27th July 2020

    Spoiler alert: ‘dom’ is the Welsh word for ‘horse sh*t’ or just ordinarily, ‘dung’

    • Bob Lamont says:

      Wonderful article.. Re dom, don’t think I’ll never see Cummings in quite the same way again, yet so appropriate…

  8. David Agnew says:

    When it comes to write about “The Not So Strange Death of the UK” – I hope they spend sometime considering the decision to paint it as an act of charity towards Scotland. The strange notion that it only existed to give English subsidy to the poor wee Scots. Perhaps they will devote a chapter or three to the odd idea that Osborne had in his sermon on the pound, that the UK existed before Scotland joined it and that there was no currency union. An odd and hateful little lie considering the treaty of union clearly states the UK was to be formed by this alliance and that a union of currencies was also desirable…by the English. Maybe a paragraph or three to George Robertson’s assertion that his people had no language, culture or history. Maybe a sentence to the daft notion of Hon. Col. Ruthless Ruth that 8 out of 10 Scots contributed nothing of value to the UK and that you had to lock everything up in case the Scots stole it.

    In truth there is nothing valuable or precious about the union. Its an economic and political alliance that has ran its course. It increasingly has no relevance. Its poor showing in the indyref should have rang alarm bells in any unionists head. But they felt they had won a bigger victory rather than the stay of execution it was. The union is theirs to lose. It was theirs to defend. It was theirs to prove that it was worth a shit. But they failed. When the moment of truth came. When Westminster itself strained at the bonds of union, the unionists showed what a dreadful and hateful thing the union has become. Scotland. My home. My nation. reduced to a pocket to be dipped by Scottish hating tory thugs. With unionists wringing their hands like the wee victims they want us to be.

    Scotland cannot continue to the victim of those lying tory bastards anymore than it can afford to be a hostage to fortune, hoping the English vote for someone who is less of a knob than Boris fucking Johnson.

  9. Cubby says:

    The AIG Women’s British Open has been renamed as the AIG Women’s Open.

    Every little bit helps. Gove won’t be happy.

  10. Bill Purves says:

    England is shit scared of losing Scotlands oil and gas income.

    • jistjr says:

      Bill Purves, Don’t be so ridiculous!!! It costs every English Citizen money to finance the retention of Scotland in the UK.
      The amount of their broadshouldered support for our basket case of a Country is mysteriously never Quantified.
      Wonder why? Maybe because if the English knew they would demand INDEPENDENCE from us as well as the EU.

  11. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland, the only country in the world that supposedly has had oil and gas for 50 years but isn’t *allowed* to borrow money under orders from the country next door that moved the maritime border to obtain even more of the oil and gas it claims has always been worthless

  12. Cubby says:

    The news today has been full of diddies travelling all over the place spreading the virus but complaining about nobody telling them that they may be quarantined. Is it a coincidence that it is the start of the English school holidays and most of the people interviewed on the English TV are English.

    Diddies of other nationalities are available but English ones seem to be all over the English TV news channels proudly displaying their ignorance of the basics of the virus. As ever some say the UK but they mean England and others say England and they mean the UK. Basic geography and the fundamentals of virus transmission seem beyond some people.

    Diddies in England have an excuse to a certain extent due to the appalling communication by Johnson’s government.

    Diddies in Scotland do not have that excuse. Most of them are Britnat diddies who refuse to watch the Scotgov briefings.

  13. yesindyref2 says:

    Tory MPs with Scottish connections are manoeuvering themselves into a reverse-entropy situation here. You have Mundell pushing to get the whisky tariffs reversed: “Time is running out to get US tariffs removed and support #scotchwhisky” – a clear dig at BoJo sacking him and BoJo’s totally supine response to The Donald ripping off Scotland in more ways than one, and from more than one orifice. Trump trump trumpety trump.

    Then about the border repellers, Clerkin and his band of one single follower, Gove said: “I think they’re just a few bampots who don’t speak for Scotland. You will always find some people in any situation who will engage in these sorts of stunts. They don’t speak for Scots and I know that’s the view of the First Minister as well.”. Yes, that’s that Gove being positive about Sturgeon for heaven’s sake! Knock knock on Heaven’s door.

    Then look clearly at the picture outside Baxters where all the workers were sent home in case they had their own protest at Alister Jack’s visage, flinging soup and jam around instead of milkshakes, where he looks like a horde of wasps are about to land on his jammy face. He didn’t want to be there, but BoJo had a bee in his bunnet. Hit the road, Jack.

    These are three people looking for reconciliation with Scotland as they know Independence is coming, want desperately to be a part of it, and will soon be featuring in The National’s articles about “From NO to YES”. “I always supported Independence”.

    And we must welcome them home with open arms!

    Hahaha. Yes, seriously!

  14. Hamish100 says:

    Ot -I see The National is suggesting Campbell of Wings is going to join the new party game. C’mon WGD join in, form another party.
    Is it me or is there some fever impacting on independence fringers?

  15. Welsh Sion says:

    FAO of Marconatrix (and possibly others).

    https://nation.cymru/news/pressure-group-calls-for-end-to-overtourism-in-parts-of-wales/

    (And here’s me going to Cymru for 10 days, tomorrow – no internet. Yey! But please don’t go independent on me during that time, Scotland – I wanna be part of your celebrations!)

    • marconatrix says:

      I found your post on the stirrings of Welsh Indy interesting and cheering 🙂
      (Btw Yng Ngheryw ydw i y dyddie hyn).

  16. velofello says:

    @ Hamish100: New party game? You mean forming a party intent on contesting List only MSP appointments? I think you’ll find that Stu Campbell initiated the idea, and the mathematics are persuasive.

    Like minded people will need to unite into one List party, and be very astute in selection of candidates. The WGD would be an ideal List candidate, arguably better than say Annie Wells or Murdo Fraser?

    But how to make this happen Hamish? Check out the List votes record, votes cast vs List seats secured. Data is over on Wings if you need help.

    The D’hondt voting”system” imposed on Holyrood is an affront to democratic elections.

    • Alex Clark says:

      I think you’ll find that posters on his blog initiated the idea when he was adamantly opposed to the idea.

    • Hamish100 says:

      Velofello,
      Can he be a potential MSP living in another country? Maybe he will share a camper van with gorgeous George? Maybe not.

      If you need 1 list party are you discarding the Green Party? Why would Campbell not do a Tommy Sheridan and join the other party. Forgot the name already lol. Excepting the SNP we will have possibly 4 parties. Puting Scotland First has got lost here.The imposition of wannabes Is an affront to a democratic election. No policies other than vote for me I am a real Indy person. Pathetic.

      • Dr Jim says:

        Everybody wants to be famous these days, except they don’t tell you what they’re for, just a lot of what they’re against, and what they’re against seems to be the idea of Nicola Sturgeon winning an Independence referendum that they psychically have read her mind and revealed that she doesn’t want to win or even have
        I don’t know what kind of political strategy this is, but it doesn’t seem like one that wants the SNP or Independence to win, it looks more like The Judea popular front versus the Popular front of Judea both organised by the Romans to oppose each other ending in a victory for the Romans so the objectors can say *See we told you so* then the Romans hand over the Denarius Aureus for a job well done

        What do I know though, I don’t have any psychic abilities, but like many people I’m a fair judge of character and I rather like the FMs character as do now the majority of the people of Scotland and that’s why the polls say they want to vote for her

        As to these other people, not so much a lot

        • grizebard says:

          Indeed. These pop-up enthusiasts sneer at the SNP for “having no Plan X” (fill in your letter of choice), but what do they offer as a way forward? Not even an “X”, it seems. “Vote for me just because”, it seems. Duh. Whatever recycled notions they may harbour, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, they can do to make any of them happen. Impotent Judah Liberationistas who are in fact offering the very same thing they criticise the SNP for! The UKGov remains the same bunch of third-rate cowardly chancers as before. As for motives, take your “my road or the high road” issue pick. A party for every flavour.

          As a purely-defensive strategy to keep our hopes of independence alive in the Scottish Parliament and the Unionists under pressure everywhere, at a time when the SNP appeared to be in danger of not winning enough seats, with or without the Greens, the notion might have had some merit if applied properly (single alt-indy party, leader with a significant public profile, etc., etc.)

          The swivel-eyed devotees though don’t appear to realise that we’re not living in 2017 any more. This is 2020 and times have changed. With a vengeance. And what they particularly seem to miss is that a strategy of damage limitation turns into damage causation as the SNP improves its standing with the non-partisan general public. As it is manifestly doing under its current leadership in the present – and signally unavoidable – crisis situation.

          The fact that too easily gets lost in the blizzard of furious opinionating is that the list is only ever an obstacle to a party hovering just under the 50% mark, and once popular support rises beyond whatever base is gained by the constituencies won, it actually begins to gain on the list as well. That is a brutal and inescapable fact of democratic politics, and just as true of the bodged AMS (NB: not “d’Hondt”) electoral system we currently have as any other PR (or quasi-PR) system. A substantial groundswell of support over the halfway mark is also the sine qua non underpinning the inevitable independence challenge, however it develops.

          The SNP is manifestly on the very cusp of this kind of takeoff. It just requires self-confidence and positive thinking all round (the SNP leadership included) and full-on support instead of all this bitter defensive negativity from the impatient unco guid (and their BritNat enablers).

          • Shagpile says:

            Indeed. And let’s not forget that in Britnat land it’s only SNP votes that are given any weight on support for independence… because it’s (formerly) Salmond’s referendum and will be (next) Sturgeon’s referendum, and the good people of Scotland are not all nasty separatists. Therefore only the separatists votes will be referred to in the Holyrood vote as support for a referendum.

            What some people seem to forget is that the SNP have already secured an outright majority government without and help*/distraction* from other list parties.

            (* delete as appropriate)

            The truth though. It boils down essentially to GRA not independence at all. Imagine if you will not vote for independence because you believe an independent Scotland should be a republic and not have a constitutional monarchy. Bluntly, my way or highway.

            Sad really.

    • Julia Gibb says:

      The people of Scotland come first and I have yet to see a list party present a compelling candidate list OR argument.

      The idea sounds good but the runners haven’t won me over yet.

      Wings is now a toxic brand more interested in damaging the SNP than Independence. All the wonderful intelligent posters left long ago. What is left is very negative and aggressive to anyone not a fully signed up “destroy the SNP” cultist.

    • yesindyref2 says:

      It’s AMS (Additional Member System), not D’Hondt. It’s FPTP for the constituency vote, and a modified form of D’Hondt for the regional vote.

      • grizebard says:

        Indeed. (We seem to have crossed-over on this one. Great minds and all that.)

        For the uninformed, d’Hondt is just the mathematical method by which these additional members are elected in the regional lists. Other variants are available.

        Personally, I would get rid of this two-vote monstrosity entirely and follow the Irish example. But like many other things, that will just have to wait.

        • JB says:

          Actually, I quite like the two vote system, because I’d like to retain the constituency MP.

          What one could argue for is the basis of the list vote (say on a whole Scotland basis rather than regions), and the number of constituency vs list seats.

          If constituencies are retained, then they need to be of a sensible population size such that the voters have a chance to meet the MSP (or MP if independence is achieved) in ‘surgery’.

          • grizebard says:

            Yes, it’s getting past that well-rooted traditional view that is the main obstacle to improvement. And that doesn’t seem to be a party-political issue, among the voting public at least. Small-c conservatism. There are ways though in which representation can remain associated with particular areas within a PR system. It’s not exactly a new issue that’s not been addressed elsewhere. We just have to be willing to look.

            Besides, if you believe in local accountability – a good thing in of itself – having these odd dislocated list representatives “on the side” is hardly consonant, is it? After all this time, there still remains a feeling abroad that these list MSPs are “2nd class” somehow, and even “unelected” as some like to assert. What AMS does basically is to apply a sticking plaster to an outdated system which is diametrically at odds with the principle being invoked to justify retention of the original part. As a whole it just doesn’t cohere.

            The most important consequence of which is arguably that most people still don’t understand how to operate it, with all the current argy-bargy being a salient example.

            (Oh, and incidentally, even with AMS, it’s perfectly possible to implement it with a single vote. Though whether that would “loosen up” the constituencies or further “shut out” the smaller parties from the list is unclear. None of which anyway alters the fact that it’s still a bodge, just one with different peripheral effects. And which at its very heart retains the unpopular two classes of MSP.)

    • Shagpile says:

      Velofello wrote – “Stu Campbell initiated the idea, and the mathematics are persuasive”.

      It depends entirely if it is INDEED mathematics or really just wishful thinking though isn’t it?

      “Like minded people will need to unite into one List party, and be very astute in selection of candidates. The WGD would be an ideal List candidate, arguably better than say Annie Wells or Murdo Fraser”?

      But the constituency vote (the FPTP element) is for the actual candidate right? It is the list vote which is for the party, and if a party is standing candidates ONLY on the list, it is the party itself which decides which candidates on their list (if any) is elected, NOT the voter. The exception is when AN INDIVIDUAL, NOT A PARTY is seeking election on the list vote.

      And which list party candidate on what will be list only parties are the “Like minded people” needed to unite around? The Judean People’s Front party, or The People’s Front of Judea’s Party?

      “Check out the List votes record, votes cast vs List seats secured. Data is over on Wings if you need help”.

      Well Paul did an opinion piece on this fairly recently, and James on Scot Goes Pop has also opined on this issue at some length. The latter has questioned the validity of “the data” posted on Wings.

      However, if you are open to it. Modelling does exist which shows the wishful thinking of “gaming the list” as exactly that i.e. wishful.

      A bit of a read but worth it. I’m guessing this is blasphemy to the reverend’s written gospel.

      View at Medium.com

  17. Well if Bol and Gordon can cut and paste to fill column inches with Brit Nay pap, so can I.

    Covid deaths in Scotland

    Wk1: 7
    Wk2: 17
    Wk3: 46
    Wk4: 49
    Wk5: 50
    Wk6: 47
    Wk7: 42
    Wk8: 35
    Wk9: 27
    Wk10: 12
    Wk11: 11
    Wk12: 5
    Wk13: 4
    Wk14: 2
    Wk15: 1
    Wk16: 0
    Wk17: 0
    Wk18: 0

    Small wonder the Brits want the Daily Update silenced.
    Meanwhile elsewhere some blogs seem to just want to hear the sounds of their own voices.
    Independence?

  18. susan says:

    Cutting post as usual Paul, you go straight to the heart of it. As to those who say other pro Indy list parties merely split the vote, I have the right to vote for the party that best suits my views. As a pro Indy scientific realist, ISP seems the best fit for me.

  19. Ken2 says:

    Leslie Evans introduced D’Hondt . Illegally without a mandate. To try and stop Independence. Blair. The warmonger.

    Scotland would be Independent now. Without D’Hondt. UK civil servants interfering in Scottish democracy, illegally. A list system. They can still be outvoted. It just takes longer.

    FPTP the unionists would have been voted out. The voters do not understand the PR system. Neither does anyone else. They vote against themselves and their convictions. A system the voters do not understand is not a great system. Less people will vote. If they do not get for whom they vote. It discredited the system.

    Ireland was illegally Partitioned but could vote to reunite. Demographically. Only comparison numbers are rising.

    SNP/SNP for Independence 2021. Demographically. Alex Salmond could swing the vote. The UK civil servants could try to stop that happening. The State intervention.

    The State of it. Brexit shambles and mess. Creating an advantage. A better alternative possible. A different narrative as the young ones come on board. They want Self ID. Worldwide. It is generational but will happen. The young ones are in favour.

    The dream ticket once again. Nicola and Alex but in different roles. Things are getting interesting. Tommy too. If people would vote for it.

    Wings has lost the plot. All over the shop. Sad but true.

    An Inquiry people could be held to account. If possible. Not a whitewash. The criminal justice system is struggling. To be sorted out. Pandemic deadlock.

    SNP members fund the Party for better governance in Scotland. More people should come on board. Join, donate campaign. Everybody should do what they can. It does make a difference.

    Scotland has improved. In twenty years since Devolution. Independence will be even better. If/when people vote for it. No taxation without representation. A democratic principle.

    Outvoted 10 to 1 is unfair. Not an equal union. The illegal Barnett Formula. Established to take monies out of Scotland. Illegal and unfairly.

    Westminster poor, bad decisions. Illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud. Costing £Trns. That could be better spent. Hinkley Point, HS2, Trident.

    A total waste of public monies. Non scrutinised public contracts and projects. Corruption at the heart of Westminster Gov. Unelected personnel interference. To line their own pockets. The Brexit shambles unfolding.

  20. Ken2 says:

    SNP/SNP for Independence. Demographics.

    Alex Salmond Party could swing the vote. It is unlikely to happen. An Inquiry still on going.

    The dream team. Nicola and Alex back together again but in different roles. Huge support for that. Back on the list.

  21. Ken2 says:

    Leslie Evans introduced PR. Without a mandate. To stop Independence in Scotland. An unelected UK civil servant. Gets paid more than the FM. To rival the elected Head in Scotland.

    Unelected personal at the heart of government. Westminster corruption. Blair the lying warmonger ruined the world economy. Killing people. Cost Scotland dear.

    The Brexit mess Johnston supported to line his own pockets. Along with his associates. Unscrutinised illegal Gov contracts/projects a complete waste of public monies. The illegal Barnett Formula. Killing people. Ruining the world economy.

    • grizebard says:

      “Leslie Evans introduced PR”? Whit? If you mean she instigated it, utter nonsense. If you mean she implemented it, well, that would have been her job as a civil servant. Though it was well before her time, I think.

      One of your most comical assertions, alas.

      • Ken2 says:

        @ Head of Local Government Constitution and Governance Division. Previous post.

        • grizebard says:

          So she helped implement it from some more lowly position than current. Oh wow. Doing what her then job required her to do. Shocking! Evidence of the “deep state” at work, eh? Hardly.

          So the same utterly inconsequential implication as before, then. Yawn.

  22. Golfnut says:

    An alternative list party is not a bad idea, 4 is a very bad idea. ISP have already refused to co operate with the other one, so the whole thing is a dead duck.

  23. Golfnut says:

    Sunak once again demonstrates that he hasn’t clue, or could just be that he’s an evil baistirt.

    https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/07/27/the-tories-are-proposing-their-second-flat-rate-and-so-regressive-tax-in-a-day/

  24. Alex Montrose says:

    We’ll have to wait and see if a commitment to an Indie ref is in their manifesto, but wouldn’t the Green Party be worthy of your 2nd vote, 4 SNP list MSPs for close to 1mill votes was not a good use of 2nd votes in the 16 HE.
    In the the NE region the SNP got over 137,000 vote and won no seats, whether it’s the Greens or the new party, I will be choosing 1 for my 2nd vote next year.

    • Julia Gibb says:

      The Green Party?

      No thank you. I am probably a “natural” green voter and the current Scottish Green Party is a million miles from my idea of a genuine Green Party.

      have you actually listened to them at Holyrood?

  25. Shagpile says:

    Alex, “the new party”, which one?

  26. Golfnut says:

    This is another very informative from Richard Murphy.
    What debt should be apportioned to Scotland? There’s a couple of other very interesting points you might pick up on, 1) Westminster didn’t borrow a single penny to fund Covid, they used quantitative easing, which is a self cancelling debt, because the gov can’t owe itself money, but it will expect you, me, and businesses to repay the loans from the government, it will also end up on GERS. 2) Westminster hasn’t paid any debt for about 19years. … so why are we pay £4 billion a year.

    Sit down with a cuppa, read it twice.

    https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/07/28/scotland-debt/

  27. Welsh Sion says:

    Other news:

    https://nation.cymru/news/plans-for-new-westminster-regulator-for-wales-and-scotland-very-confused-and-unworkable/

    Plans for new Westminster regulator for Wales and Scotland ‘very confused’ and ‘unworkable’
    28th July 2020

    [Article in today’s FT]

  28. Dr Jim says:

    Since 2014 it’s votes that count more importantly than seats, because every election in Scotland is seen by Westminster through the prism of Independence, if the vote for the SNP drops it makes no difference what other party or parties those votes go to, even if another party claims it’s the *Independence by Tuesday* party those votes will be ignored and counted as opposition to the SNP concluding that the people of Scotland no longer support them, and we know that’s not accurate, but that’s what they’ll say and use to support their argument

    I’ve said before about total amounts of votes and their value, because every political party looks at the totals to gauge swings to and from their own party and the oppositions do the same, if that were not so what would be the point of Professor John Curtice standing at his graphs on the Telly pointing that out to the public, totals are what counts towards a mood in the nation that’s why the SNP will always advocate giving both votes to them, totals represent what the country wants irrespective of how many seats are obtained by a voting system designed to restrict seats

    “Scotland fractures as SNP lose votes” “SNP lose support for Independence” ” Scotland says no to Independence” If I were a Tory newspaper editor or the Telly news those would be the headlines I’d have ready with a picture of a smiling Boris Johnson and a sad Nicola Sturgeon side by side “Boris has seen off Sturgeon surge” with a Boris Johnson quote saying something like “Now let’s get Scotland done”

    Quite frankly I never want to see anything like that happen and if I had ten votes every one of them would go straight into the box with SNP ticked in every one

    Folk are entitled to vote for whever they like the look of but if they claim their vote is being cast for an alternative party for Independence to maximise the chances of Independence they’ve either been conned or they’re mistaken in that view, total votes count, ten votes for the *Michael Mouse Independence party* is ten votes against the only political party that can actually deliver Independence, when a voting system is rigged against you it’s not entirely sensible to confuse it even more by spreading out a limited amount of votes between even more parties

    Of course if you don’t want Independence then vote away for anybody else, that’s the thing about democracy everybody can get a shot at trying to subvert it, history’s full of them, most recently Farage, and didn’t we all condemn him for conning England with his various new shiny parties, and look at what he caused as he sits back and accepts the cash he was paid to do it

    • Julia Gibb says:

      I agree fully although the Unionists crawling in on list votes does annoy me.

      For me the Greens are a good example of Unionist division. The arguements over bus routes, office parking etc are all trivial in the concept of Independence. Until that objective is achieved we cannot shape our economy or invest in renewable projects as we desire.
      The Green rigid stance on Oil and Gas is another example. If we do not use that resource in a careful responsible manner then we deny ourselves long term investment funds to kick start green issues.

      The Greens, SSP, Rise, Labour. LibDems and the Tories all represent the views of those living in Scotland.

      The arguement should not be whose voice is correct or loudest. It should be WHEN do we get the power to exercise it.

      Far too many people want to dictate the shape of the Scottish political landscape BEFORE we have the power to do so.

      Unity is the only force that bullies fear. The SNP is a vehicle to achieve Independence. It is a broad church of all our views.

      Every single topic, no matter how controversial, is secondary to having the right for us to decide. Post Independence if you do not like a parties manifesto – kick them out or don’t vote for them. Laws can be changed. Acts can be overturned.

      Unless we recover a united front we will remain under Westminsters boot ( the boot Ruthie thinks has not been used enough)

      I was tempted by the list arguement but I am returning to the fundamental message of unity first.

    • Julia Gibb says:

      No matter how long the extending lead a dog is given, it is still a lead and can be yanked or reeled in at anytime the master wishes.

      • Welsh Sion says:

        Do you remember this from 2013, Julia Gibb?

        4. (of 60.)

        Scottie and Jon Bull

        Once upon a time, there lived in a town not so far away, a large fat man called Jon Bull. Jon Bull owned a little dog called Scottie. Every day, Jon Bull used to take Scottie for walks at the end of a tight leash. Then, they would come home, and he would open a tin of dog food and give it to Scottie. Scottie ate the food and stayed quiet. He remained faithful to his master.

        Then one day, as Jon Bull and Scottie were walking in town with Scottie on his tight leash, they passed outside a butcher’s shop. Inside the shop was a big, juicy bone.

        “I want that bone” said Scottie, all of a sudden.

        “What?” exclaimed Jon Bull, “You have a voice? Scottie, you can speak?”

        “Yes, I can” said Scottie, “And I’ve been quiet long enough.”

        “B-b-b-ut”, stuttered Jon Bull, “Why are you speaking now? Think of all that tinned dog food I’ve been giving you all these years – you don’t need that bone. I’ve taken good care to give you food regularly. I’ve taken you for walks. I provide you with a nice warm home in which to live and sleep. And I do know what’s good for you.”

        “Oh yes, you know what’s good for me” retorted Scottie bitterly. “And as for the food, why, it’s been the same old, bland dog food day in, day out. Sometimes it comes out of a red tin, another time it comes out of a blue tin. You’ve even tried deceiving me into thinking the new food – from a yellow and blue striped tin – is different. But quite frankly, Jon Bull, it’s the same old recipe hashed up every time. And I’m sick to death of it.”

        “Why you impudent, ungrateful cur!” roared Jon Bull.

        “All the other dogs have bones” replied Scottie, “I don’t see why I should be any different. And you know as well as I do, the traditional image of a dog is with a bone between its teeth – not lapping away at some meat mixture in a bowl given to him rather condescendingly, I might add, by his master. I’ve seen it in the books you read.”

        “Fiddlesticks!” cried Jon Bull. “Are you trying to tell me, your master, how to look after my own dog – after all I’ve done for you?”

        “Yes”, said Scottie softly, “you might learn something from me.”

        “Such cheek!” blustered Jon Bull, his face reddening and his fat belly wobbling. “I’ve a good mind to thrash you, Scottie. Just because some mangy mongrels are allowed bones, you think you’re entitled to some bones too! Well, I won’t stand for it, do you hear? I’m your master and you’re my dog – I tell you what to do, not the other way around!”

        Scottie was not listening. He was obliged to get the resentments he had been feeling for years off his chest.

        “And another thing,” said Scottie, pursuing his argument calmly, “you say you’ve taken me for walks. Yes, you have – but always on your terms. The other dogs are left off the leash and are free to roam. You keep me on this tight leash, day in, day out. It’s not normal.”

        Scottie thought by appealing to Jon Bull’s ideas of fairness and the treatment which other dogs had that he would win the argument. He thought Jon Bull commended exercise, fresh air and freedom for dogs. What Scottie hadn’t realised that these rules only applied to other dogs – not to him.

        Jon Bull was having none of it.

        “Not normal? Damn your impudence, Scottie! I won’t have you speak to me like that! You know full well that if I did let you off the leash, you couldn’t possibly survive by yourself. You wouldn’t get any food – you’d die of starvation. And you have a nice warm home with me. Enough of these ideas of freedom!”

        Scottie was quiet for a bit. Jon Bull smirked. He had won the argument. He was right. He was always right. How dare that impudent, ungrateful puppy think that he knew best! I, Jon Bull, hold the leash. I, Jon Bull feed you well. I, Jon Bull give you a nice, warm home. What more could you possibly ask for, Scottie?

        *****

        Some days later, Jon Bull and Scottie were in town again. Scottie was on his tight leash and they were walking past the butcher’s shop again.

        “I want that bone” said Scottie.

        “We’ve had this conversation!” growled Jon Bull. “You’re not getting it and that’s final!”

        Scottie weighed up his options. It was now or never. He bit Jon Bull hard on the ankle.

        “Yyyeeeeooowww!” screamed Jon Bull, letting go of the leash.

        This was the opportunity Scottie wanted – and he took it. He ran into the butcher’s shop and onto the counter where the big juicy bone was. He could hear Jon Bull bellowing after him,

        “Come back here, you ungrateful, vicious mutt!”

        (Two possible scenarios to this story now present themselves. Which one is it to be? I leave the final decision to my readers).

        *****

        Scenario 1

        Having jumped onto the counter, Scottie surveyed the big, juicy bone. And then he sniffed it. He sniffed it again to check and then he realised, with bitter disappointment, that the bone did not smell very nice. It was not going to be very nice to taste either. Scottie’s dreams were crushed and he sat on the counter with his head between his paws and cried his eyes out.

        This gave Jon Bull the opportunity to recover his dog.

        “Don’t you ever run away from me again!” cried Jon Bull. “In fact, I’ve got the very thing to ensure that you will not.”

        Jon Bull proceeded to tighten the leash a couple of notches around Scottie’s head.

        “That should ensure your obedience in future,” said Jon Bull. “Such a silly dog to have notions of juicy bones when he was fed so well at home by me.”

        “Was fed so well…?” whimpered Scottie through his tears.

        “Oh yes” said Jon Bull maliciously, “you must be taught a thorough lesson for your behaviour, Scottie. And as for biting your master on the ankle – after all he has done for you – that is really beyond the pale.”

        Scottie gulped.

        “Yes, my doggie friend, you will go back to your usual diet of tinned dog food. Only this time, I won’t be quite as generous in my rations. You will live on half a tin a day – not your usual full tin. You understand don’t you, Scottie? And in this period of economic austerity, you must appreciate I can’t afford to give you a full tin every day, in any case. We must all make economic savings – we are all in this together!”

        And goodness, how Scottie howled!

        *****

        Scenario 2

        Scottie surveyed and sniffed the big juicy bone.

        “Mmmmmmmmmmmm” he sighed, “better than I expected. So much better than that boring, samey dog food I’ve been so used to getting from my master, Jon Bull.”

        And with that Scottie seized the bone between his teeth – as he had seen so many other of his canine friends do in the past – and trotted out of the butcher’s shop, his tail wagging furiously and happily. He was now just like them, a free doggie with his own bone, not attached by a tight leash and controlled by a surly master who always made all the decisions on Scottie’s behalf. Scottie could look forward to a new life for himself – and one where he called all the shots.

        Dear readers – which scenario is it to be for Scottie and Jon Bull?

        The story concludes in September 2014.

        ______

        Parables for the New Politics
        2012-2020

    • marconatrix says:

      “[The clear choice is] continuing to live in a poor, decaying former colonial power governed by an incompetent elite living in a fantasy world of past greatness, or a dynamic, exciting and forward-looking nation.”
      Exactly!

  29. Ken2 says:

    Under Blair unionists leadership. Leslie Evans introduced the PR system in Scotland. Devolution negotiations. 2000 In the Councils STV and in the Holyrood Parliament. To favour unionism. The UK civil service system. To stop am Independence Party getting a majority. It has not worked because of material change.

    In the rest of the UK FPTP was kept in every election,

    • Welsh Sion says:

      See Grizebard @8.10 a.m. today.

      Also a PR system has been used in all Welsh elections since 1999 and also to the European Parliament when we were Members of the EU.

      If you mean votes to the Westminster Parliament – yes, but that is the sole legislature elected by FPTP in the UK.

  30. Ken2 says:

    SNP/SNP/Independence.Material change. Support increasing. The young ones coming on board. To the fore.

  31. Robert graham says:

    A lot of people getting really animated about the prospect of a list vote party ? going after lost votes on the list won’t threaten the Regional vote that appears to be pretty safe so what’s the problem , it’s votes that are counted not intended or volume of support that are considered it’s just acual votes .
    Approximately 900.000 votes with 4 seats gained isn’t a very good return is it .maybe some people getting a bit too comfortable with this situation by keeping power in a few hands even if the aim of another party has exactly the same goal and the word that can’t be mentioned Independence remember that Independence it’s the whole point of the excercise , the point , not some side show it’s the Whole Point.

    • Julia Gibb says:

      If, IF, we have one list Party…maybe it could work.
      However what if we have 2/3 new “Indy parties” plus the SNP and Greens on the list. We devide the list vote. The SNP loose 4, the Greens loose 4 and the Unionist Parties gain more.

      Convince me that cannot happen.

      • Petra says:

        Spot on Julia and then if a certain blogger gets involved he’s capable of damaging the independence movement, in its entirety, leading to the loss of Indyref2. That’s the master plan of course.

    • Shagpile says:

      Robert Graham wrote – “Approximately 900.000 votes with 4 seats gained isn’t a very good return is it .maybe some people getting a bit too comfortable with this situation by keeping power in a few hands even if the aim of another party has exactly the same goal and the word that can’t be mentioned Independence remember that Independence it’s the whole point of the excercise , the point , not some side show it’s the Whole Point”.

      It’s becoming a side show though, right now.

      Take votes from the SNP and all that happens is that the MSM capitalise on that simple fact and spin away… EVEN IF all those other votes go to another “indy party”.

      Wasted votes then?

      Inflict that double whammy, because, UNLESS the ONE party (and there’s a choice) you choose is not polling above 6%, it is not going to get a seat, and then again maybe not. It starts with which party wins on the constituency vote, and if the SNP don’t, they may need that vote they didn’t get.

      The only credible alternative would be high profile candidates to stand as independents on the list like the late Margo did. Remember, there are no by-election if there’s a death, and no one on the list to take an independent’s seat in that scenario.

      In the link I posted. The modelling is clear. It is YOUR responsibility to become informed, if you do and you still disagree… well fine. It is a democracy and your opinion counts… as does your vote.

      And all came about because of GRA! NOT independence.

  32. Ken2 says:

    The Tory have issued £1/2Trillion of UK bonds. Paying interest for years. Or devaluing debt. Affecting people’s standard of living. People pay the debts in higher prices and taxes. Lower value of wages. Tax evasion.

    Debts £2Trn. UK assets £8Trn

    Scotland paying debts for monies not borrowed or spent in Scotland. £Billions every year. Paying for Westminster unionist poor, bad decisions. The illegal Barnett Formula. Formulated to take revenues and resources out of Scotland. Thatcher. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. McCrone Report. ‘D’ notices.

    Iraq illegal wars $3Trns. Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act for 100 years.

    Press handed over to right wing. Murdoch criminality for support. Thatcher. Killing people prematurely

    Without a free and fair Press there is no democracy.

  33. Dr Jim says:

    The problem with politics in Scotland now with reference to the SNP is they’re treated like the Beatles or some boy band who got a new front female singer and some folk preferred the old front man singer so go in the huff and demand the band split up or they won’t buy their records anymore and they’ll go off and be groupies of the Dave Clark Five in protest because it’s all Yoko Ono’s fault for changing their musical style, the media’s playing the same game right now with the Sussex Royals gossiping about this one doesn’t like that one, Ooh big fall out, who do the public support

    Politics is just another showbusiness and it’s bought and sold in the same way, and again whether some folk like it or not it is a popularity contest, so what style do you want to buy, the SNP are selling Vogue or Cosmopolitan while these others are trying to punt Which Car and Angling Weekly

    • Petra says:

      They seem to forget that ”the old front man singer” actually lost Indyref1. Short, or selective, memories and all of that.

  34. Arthur Thomson says:

    Nicola played a blinder yet again today – and I know why. She comes across as entirely genuine because she is. She isn’t playing stupid political games, she is doing the job of leading Scotland to a place of safety. Everyone who wants independence should be backing her.

    To those who think that we shouldn’t be channelling all our support through one leader – who was the alternative to Ghandi? Mandela? Merkel?

    Any effective group or organisation has more than one potential leader but unlike the Labour protection racket party, they don’t expend their energy fighting each other over the role.

    Hopefully, very soon the irrelevance about new parties will go back into obscurity where it belongs. I don’t like anything that may delay achieving independence.

  35. Golfnut says:

    One party would have been fine, having four just gives the brit state and their media lapdogs the opportunity to cause division. Even so a single party had to be different, not just supporting Independence but appealing in some way to the 1.7 million Yes voters differently to the SNP. It’s needs to be a direct challenge to Westminster without screwing the SNP. Blue sky thinking there is none.

  36. Chicmac says:

    There should be no more than 3 pro-indy alternatives on average on the list in any region. i.e. 1 Green and 2 others. Maybe 4 in cast iron SNP consituency win regions and just two or one in regions where the SNP is expected to not win all or nearly all the constituency vote.

    It is up to those other pro-indy parties to ensure that happens. The SNP can only promote SNP 1&2.

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