Well you didn’t need to be Nostradamus to see that one coming. A month on from Nicola Sturgeon’s letter to him, Boris Johnson has finally been arsed to reply to the First Minister’s demand for a Section 30 order for another independence referendum and for the necessary powers to be transferred to Holyrood permanently. As everyone, their granny, and their granny’s cat knew he was going to, he said no. Scotland had its democracy in 2014.
Johnson cited what he described as Nicola Sturgeon’s and Alex Salmond’s “personal promise” in 2014 that the referendum that year was a once in a generation vote. He lied. It wasn’t a personal promise, it was an observation and they made it clear that it was their personal opinion and not a binding commitment. Neither Alex Salmond nor Nicola Sturgeon ever said that they swore a solemn vow to the people of Scotland that there would be no more referendums for a generation. In December last year, Boris Johnson himself described that month’s election as a “critical once in a generation election”. Does that mean that there are to be no more elections in the UK? The way this British Government’s contempt for democracy is going, I wouldn’t put it past them.
But even if it was a promise, Johnson has some nerve in citing the “personal promises” of other politicians. This is a man who is a serial liar, a cheat, a charlatan. A man who has deceived everyone he’s ever met and who lies at every opportunity. This is a man who gave a promise that he’d die in a ditch if the UK didn’t leave the EU last year. Last anyone saw he was not dead in a ditch, although to be fair what was left of his reputation for honesty died in a ditch many years ago. And here he is, demanding that Nicola Sturgeon be held to a standard that he himself refuses to come within a thousand light years of. There’s the moral high ground, and then there’s Boris Johnson chuntering away in the bowels of the earth.
It’s Boris Johnson’s party which has contravened a direct promise made to the people of Scotland. It’s Boris Johnson’s party which has traduced the result of the 2014 referendum. The reality that the Conservatives refuse to acknowledge is that if they had fulfilled all the promises and commitments that they made in 2014 in order to win the referendum we wouldn’t be here now with the SNP receiving their fourth mandate for another referendum. The Tories promised that Scotland would be an equal partner in a family of nations, that Scotland should lead the UK not leave it. That was a lie. They promised that the only way to remain within the EU was to vote against independence. That was a lie. They promised that the powers of the Scottish Parliament would never be altered against the will of Holyrood. That was a lie. And in the Smith Commission they promised that there was nothing in the post referendum agreement which prevented the people of Scotland from revisiting the question of independence in the future. That was a lie.
In his letter, Johnson said that his government would ” continue to uphold the democratic decision of the Scottish people” in 2014. But they’re not going to uphold any of the democratic decisions that the Scottish people have made since 2016. They’re not going to uphold any of the three electoral mandates or the Holyrood mandate that the people of Scotland have given the Scottish Government for another referendum. They’re not going to uphold the democratic decision of the people of Scotland to remain a part of the EU. For this British Government, Scottish democracy was a one off event in 2014 where the people of Scotland surrendered all and any right to ever have any sort of say over the future of Scotland forever.
There was no case for Scotland remaining in the UK made in Johnson’s short letter. There was only his refusal to acknowledge Scotland’s vote in the General Election and a party political yah boo sucks point about Scottish public services – although of course he didn’t note that these are performing better than those his own administration manages in England. There was nothing in the letter which reassured or persuaded the people of Scotland that we’re better off in Johnson’s UK. This was the curt letter of a man who has nothing but contempt for Scotland and disdain for those he believes to be beneath him. This was the letter of a man who has no intention of persuading, cajoling, or pleading with Scotland, a man who has no intention of making any accommodations for Scotland. This was the letter of a man who believes that Scotland should be contained. Shut up Scotland, get back in your box. Your betters have spoken.
Johnson’s cavalier dismissal of any manifestation of Scottish democracy that he doesn’t agree with will only play into the hands of the independence movement in the longer term. All that he has done is to confirm the fears of wavering voters in Scotland that the British Government is indeed not prepared to make any compromises with Scotland in order to recognise the strong remain vote in this country. Scotland will get the hard Brexit that Boris Johnson decides, and it will have no influence in determining the shape of Brexit or ability to ameliorate its effects. Johnson has confirmed that the UK is not a partnership of nations, because the democratic will of Scotland will always be overriden by a mandate derived from the vote in England. He has confirmed that there is no place in this supposedly most successful union ever for a distinctively Scottish viewpoint. That’s the question that those who oppose independence need to answer now, if there is no place within the UK for Scotland’s distinctive politics, then what is the point of the UK for Scotland?
This is more than a matter of democratic principle. It’s a matter of democracy itself. Anyone in the rest of the UK, and opponents of independence within Scotland, have a moral obligation to speak out against Boris Johnson’s casual dismissal of the result of the General Election in Scotland. In December 2019 the people of Scotland gave the SNP a clear and unarguable mandate for another referendum under the same rules that give Johnson a mandate for Brexit. If the legitimacy of Johnson’s British government is to be accepted, so much the legitimacy of the mandate for another referendum in Scotland. You don’t get to apply a different set of electoral rules in Scotland from the rest of the UK. The Labour party and the Lib Dems – we’re looking at you.
There’s to be another vote in Holyrood on an independence referendum later this month. That will be mandate number five. At that time the Scottish Government will also set out its detailed response and say what next steps it’s going to take. For weeks and months now, independence supporters in Scotland have speculated about how Nicola Sturgeon would respond to a refusal from Boris Johnson to agree to another independence referendum. As she noted in her immediate reaction to the decision today, she saw this coming. So we’re about to find out how she’s going to respond. What we can be certain of however, is that she’s not going to respond to Johnson’s arrogance by simply saying “Oh that’s OK then” and locking Scotland back into the British nationalist shortbread tin.
Boris Johnson will regret his letter. This country will not be held hostage to the vanity and ego of an Etonian who fears the voice of Scotland. His position is unsustainable and ultimately self-defeating. One way or another the people of Scotland will have their say. Because of Johnson’s arrogance, the eventual independence of Scotland became yet more certain today. We have a choice between a flourishing Scottish democracy with independence, or a British Government which locks Scottish democracy away never to be used again. Johnson’s nawbaggery will not stand. It’s time for the gloves to come off.
James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop has started a crowdfunder to raise the money to commission a poll on Scottish independence. As he points out it’s very odd that there has been no full scale poll of Scottish opinion on independence since the General Election, despite indications that the victory of Boris Johnson in the rest of the UK and SNP landslide in Scotland has produced a surge in support for independence. The crowdfunder page is here, please consider supporting it.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-scot-goes-pop-commission-an-indy-poll
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Wee Ginger Dug 
Has anyone read the tweet today from Team Nandy – the team behind UK Leadership hopeful Lisa Nandy? Labour (presumably it’s only Labour’ though I have my suspicions) to set up an ‘international commission’ for and by Scots to ‘LEARN’ about the history of divisive nationalism? I’m incandescent – much more concerned about this from Labour than the letter we expected to come from Boris – which it looks like he cheekily signed ‘Yours ever…). Please check out Team Nandy tweet.
Yeh Jo Coburn on the BBC’s Politics live today threw this one from Nandy at Iain Blackford.
So many of these Britnat Labour MPs show their true colours when the subject of Scotland comes up. Ultimately to them we are foreigners and the old colonial mindset comes to the fore. We need educating on how to be more grateful to be part of the Uk.
Jo Coburn is at the vanguard of a gang of English Imperial broadcasters Down There.
We are a vanquished colony as far as they are concerned.
It is about to get very nasty indeed.
If Carlaw or Leonard or Rennie get to their feet in Edinburgh this week and defend this nonsense, they are what they are, paid collaborators of a country hostile to the land of their birth of choice, Scotland.
I wonder how the 400,000 English born, the majority of whom voted No in 2014 are feeling now?
Have they really settled here and do not consider Scotland a nation in its own right?
Do they consider themselves ‘A Year in Provence’ Englishmen abroad, still loyal to the Mother Country?
It is getting down to the wire now.
I have no time for walking on any more egg shells.
Scotland is an independent nation, distinct from England, Wales, and the ‘territory’ of N Ireland.
I demand that the other nations on these isles respect this.
It is getting to that stage now.
To consider that a bloated wreckage of an individual like Johnson ‘controls’ me and mine is intolerable.
That was quick, Paul, lol and no we won’t be going back into that box. It was suffocating to say the least. If Johnston had any brain cells at all he would have let this go ahead when he may have stood a chance of winning (highly doubtful). As it stands now he and that wee toad, Gove, have just pushed support up another few notches.
…………….
Let’s get behind James Kelly by donating to his polling fundraiser. And what about getting that WBB out now, one million of them, to enlighten the masses?
……………..
I couldn’t find that Lisa Nandy tweet Sandra but see that she’s tweeted Jack McConnell’s support for her. So bye-bye Lisa bye-bye.
She’s going nowhere and instead of focusing on “learning” about the history of the divisiveness of (Scottish) nationalism she should spend some time on focusing on the root causes of divisiveness in relation to the Labour Party. You know the party that was slaughtered by the SNP and the Tories in December. If she had any wits about her she could start by reading about BritNat colonial rule, the history of Ireland and so on. What an ignoramus. One of many it would seem and I’m just wondering if she’s a mate of BritNat Murray? Murray that’s now pushing to be Labour Deputy leader. If so, another nail in their coffin. Mair metal than wood now.
Re Scot Goes Pop’s indy poll fundraiser: that’s £1,098 raised of the £4,000 target in just over an hour. This is happening.
I looked again and suspect it has been removed because of the response it received. Paul, big apologies for butting into to your excellent blog today. I maybe shouldn’t have griped about the Lisa Nandy ‘thing’ here. Sorry for that. x
I think everyone here goes off topic frequently. Including me.
If that’s not fascist I don’t know what is!
‘International commission’? Let’s see who they manage to get signed up to that!
Seriously how utterly condescending, patronising and insulting to all of us in Scotland who are actually internationalists and who embrace the outward looking, positive internationalism of the EU and outwith the EU. An attempt to portray Scotland as narrow like the dangerous British inward looking, insular narrow nationalism we are seeing more and more of right now.
Lets’s make sure to share as much as possible about the clearances, ie akin to genocide by the English, of the Scottish people! That’s what people need to ‘LEARN’ if they don’t already know about it.
Looks like the battle lines have been drawn now. We will be needing the support of the INTERNATIONAL community to keep Scotland from being destroyed by the narrow minded dangerous Britnats in London and their dodgy pals.
It seems that the British Labour movement gets more than a bit mixed up over its view of ‘nationalism’. Is Ms Nandy unaware of this from that bastion of British socialism, the Fabian Society?
Source: https://fabians.org.uk/theres-red-as-well-as-blue-in-the-union-flag/
“Progressive nationalism’ is a thing and it has merit!”
“People need hope and confidence in the country’s ability to meet its challenges. Narrow reactionary nationalism can be a ready retreat – hence UKIP’s dramatic rise. But progressive nationalism can just as readily find root in the same needs.”
“Progressive nationalism would also help Labour assert a credible positive vision of the future.”
“Anchoring its progressive vision in an empowered national identity enables Labour to project a positive yet resolute, strong yet grounded narrative of a better tomorrow.”
“Tactically, Labour anchoring itself in progressive nationalism outflanks the Conservatives, playing on their UKIP divisions, while countering with a stronger identity more in tune with the majority of modern Britain. Equally it embraces from the disenchanted working class through to struggling British businesses, making common cause between classes and interests. For Labour nationalism can now be inherently unifying; whereas for Conservatives it’s now more divisive.”
Perhaps Ms Nandy will call out the Fabian Society for its support for nationalism when she addresses its conference later this month (https://fabians.org.uk/event/feps-fabian-new-year-conference-2020/).
And Ms Nandy will no doubt also seek to ‘re-educate’ Labour’s sister party in NI, the SDLP, which currently holds this view: “It is time for a new type of nationalism. The SDLP’s new vision of Progressive Nationalism will move the ground upon which the constitutional debate on this island rests.”
Source: https://www.sdlp.ie/issues/progressive-nationalism/
Murdoch the criminal liar sacked Johnson for telling lies. Serial liars. Tax evading non Doms. Johnston the migrant who benefited from EU monies, membership and privileges. Born in NY, brought up on EU (public) monies. Brussels. His father was an EU diplomat. Gets an EU pension? Johnston wastes public monies.
The SNP Scottish Gov needs to go to Court. ECHR. NATO. International Law. Self determination and self governance if people vote for it.
Brexit has now cost more than all the EU contributions. £200Billion++. The economy is tanking.
All the Westminster leaders who do not support another Indy Ref do not last very long. Some people never learn. Self preservation. They might catch on. It will increase support for Independence.
“The gloves are off” you sound very defiant Paul ✊. If the msm didn’t take notice of the march on Saturday then maybe they will take note if the A1 and the A74 and other border crossings suddenly had a few thousand Scots yellow jackets slowing the traffic. Not that I’m advocating it but if the Scots were as militant as the French then that would be a mild action in comparison to what they would do.
If you’re not advocating blocking roads, Malky, why mention it? That’s the last thing that we need. P*ssing off the very Scots that we require to get on our side. I can just see them sitting in their cars cursing us upside down. No not conducive, imo, to us getting our independence. Far from it.
I’m not advocating it Petra I’m just saying what could happen if people took a leaf from the French Yellow vest brigade. And I did say slowing not blocking. The MSM won’t report 80,000 cheerful souls braving a winter storm but they couldn’t ignore a slow down of traffic at the border or a human chain stretching from Berwick to Carlisle.
👍
Not unexpected aside the Charlatan not promoting “fantastic opportunities”, “sunny uplands”, blah… Now looking forward to what follows…
The usual from the permanent detachment on the BBC article HYS of course, Guvnor Jack’s infamous 55% pro-Union stalwarts… 🤣
re :- James Kelly’s crowdfunder poll.
I would love to see a genuine poll on the Indy matter, but I’m afraid I don’t trust any of the polling organisations any longer. Look at who is behind most of them! Establishment all the way.
They have data bases of people’s views from all their previous polls and simply can decide to ask which of these previous responders will give them the answers they require – job done!
Scotland is in a bind, with BBC, MSM , and pollsters allowing us only to see what THEY desire us to see. Must get a new course of my anti-cynism pills……..!
There’s more to this than meets the eye, his primary reason given in the second paragraph, the lie about AS and Nicola promising once in a generation is easily refutable, and it beggars belief that he should lead with this, they can’t be this stupid, can they?
The opinion that there is no legal route to a referendum, timed to just precede Johnson’s refusal, mirrors the exact same motive for producing the opinion given before indyref1, that Scotland had been extinguished.
Scotland’s Independence may well be a major bargaining chip in securing International relationships and trade negotiations. Or at least that may be there hope since I do not think they are anywhere near as confident as they would like us to believe that they can prevent a second referendum.
“…they can’t be this stupid, can they?” – With an army of advisers, minders and legal bods watching he doesn’t fall on his face, not a chance…. This was not a Trump 2am tweet, but perhaps more tweaked to reinforce England public opinion and divert attention…
Your shortbread tin is similar to M&S’ Christmas tin
Its Scottish shortbread is in a London bus with a UJ on the roof.
Canny or what!
Which is yet another example of why I, for one, no longer shop in M&S – and haven’t for some years now.
If there’s a Jack on the pack put it back.
Buy Scottish and leave English ‘imports’ on the shelf.
I am sick fed up of having the Butchers’ Apron thrust in my face everywhere I go.
It generates the same disgusted outraged reaction as the swastika in my eyes. It is a symbol that we Scots are held under armed house arrest by a conquering nation.
I don’t shop at any English based company now.
Buy Scottish! Every little bit helps.
👍
[…] Wee Ginger Dug We won’t be trapped in the shortbread tin Well you didn’t need to be Nostradamus to see that one coming. A month on from […]
I think it was Ghandi( Correct me if I’m wrong)i who said that,” Indipendance was never handed over ,but always had to be fought for !” In God’s name let us start really fighting and start standing up for ourselves.
Lies , lies , lies followed by more lies !
Why has no one in the great British media called out this statement for the stinking pile of sh*t that it is ? ( rhetorical question ! )
When a PM gets away with this kind of rubbish masquerading as statesmanship and the media accept it without a murmur then we are all lost .
Time to start resistance ! Can we do something practical that will not piss off the Scottish people but get right up the noses of the London elite and media ?
We could start by petitioning the Queen. You know the so-called Queen of Scots (mother of Harry who’s getting his independence) who’s done nought for us including standing up for the 62% of Scots that voted to remain in the EU. Whatever power she has, or not, that’ll piss off the London elite and media. Remind them that Scotland is one of two Kingdoms only that constitutes their bl**dy, stinking, undemocratic, totally corrupt United Kingdom. One that we want out of like Harry.
SNP MSPs to resign en masse and force a SGE in March.
The mandate Indyref 2 Now.
Blockade anywhere does nothing to further the cause of Independence.
Alternatively we rise up and take Edinburgh Castle? I think not.
At least in the USA there are elements of their media that call out Trumps lies. In the UK Johnson just gets away with his lies with the exception of the National.
to say Johnson ignored the election result is to assume that a vote for SNP was a vote for independence. I don’t think that can be assumed at all. plenty of people vote SNP but then voted remain, can’t see how it would be different in a hypothetical second referendum.
I don’t usually like to be rude to people who comment here, but your comment contains so many shades of stupid it’s hard to know where to begin. A vote for the SNP in December 2019 was a vote for an independence referendum. The SNP made it abundantly clear that a vote for them was a vote for Scotland to be able to choose its own future. The Tories campaigned on the single issue of blocking a referendum, and got their arse handed to them on a plate.
An independence referendum and yer actual independence are not the same thing. Surprised that needs to be pointed out to you.
I think the surname yoon gives the game away.
As does referring to No voters in 2014 as voting “remain”.
Yep I noticed that as well.
Funny how the Britnat politicians and media never mention that people who vote for the Britnat parties may well vote for independence – in particular Labour voters. It cuts both ways.
Polls tell us approximately 40% of Scottish Labour voters support independence, approximately 20% of Scottish Conservative voters support independence and approximately 10% of Scottish LibDem voters support independence. I suggest we win any argument on that twisted logical front.
Reblogged this on Ramblings of a 50+ Female.
Its so time to go to the international courts. Its jaw dropping the non-democracy happening now.
Unfortunately, Johnson can keep on doing this. It’s called induced helplessness. A typical Establishment bully, he knows this game very well. In fact it is how the elite have been gaming everyone else for centuries. He simply bats every move back into our court with behind it the grinning dare, “What are you going to do now?”
They always start from the dominant position so he can simply sit there like a fat ogre blocking everything. And every time he blocks each succeeding move he’s betting that his opponents lose will and initiative. That’s induced helplessness. His opponents have to remain at white heat in purpose while firmly united and while the elite arrogantly keeps knocking them back.
Quite frankly, I don’t know what we do next. I do know what sometimes happens when a boiling grievance is suppressed for a long time. But with no kind of adjudicating exterior support, namely a galvanized international community, where is the civilized route to independence in the face of what is plainly stony-faced obduracy and outright contempt? The UK with its rampant nationalism is already a rogue state so can keep on rejecting the reasonable argument for independence.
I am of the opinion that sorting out the ” Scottish problem ” was one reason for the Tory determination to leave the EU. Some of the contenders for the Labour leadership seem to think that they too, can play to the baying nationalism of their Northern English voters while moronically trying to pretend that they are the ” internationalists “.
There is no hope for UK democracy, but where do we go from here in winning justice for Scotland? I would like to think that the Scottish public might be a sleeping giant about to wake but it seems more like a fireside cat. That’s what Johnson is banking on I think. I’d still like to believe that his gloating self-confidence is ill-founded,,,,?
Labour is dead JGedd; Up here, and Down There.
This was Corbyn’s, McDonnel’s and their Teenage Marxist Momentum’s ultimate goal. Destroy the Labour Party, get the Brits out of the EU, all for Mother Russia, or some other vague anarchic Bader Meinhoff -esque ideal.
They don’t give a tinker’s curse for the Great Unwashed.
Darling and Co were manning the Socialist barricades in the ‘sixties. Now they are Lords and Ladies leapin’ to the Establishment tune.
Labour and the Lib Dems are back in the pointless but extremely well paid Opposition to the BAD Blue Tories, mutually masturbating while they busy themselves until April picking a New Loser to lead the packs, while London burns, and we Scots are forced out of Europe against our democratic will.
That Dick Leonard is still in post is morally repugnant.
And Jackson Carlaw will be the new Ruth?
Jesus! Thery are playing with themselves while the UK in general, Scotland in particular, is being thrown to the wild savages of globalised capitalism.
If anyone believes that we should suffer a yewar or two of Borisgeddon and hope that Nos suddenly become Yeses, include me out.
JGedd
Cheer up…. I’d have been more concerned if Johnston said ” Ok let’s get this organised for April and get it settled ”
Nicola would have to agree and Westminster would have had input into how the vote was run.
He would look democratic and this bloody Union would look like it’s actually voluntary.
We’d be stuck in the, Whit Currency, Border Bad, Deficit Huge,Spanish Veto, vortex AGAIN
Thankfully they’ve been dum enough to stick to their ( they’ve said so often enough) plan of getting to the 2021 Holyrood elections,and they’ve used a very weak and obvious lie to get there
We’ve often said we need a different argument than 2014!
Well they just gave us one.
We’ve moved into “let my people go” territory.
Who is going to argue coin when our Liberty is on the line?
They just gave us the ground on which we fight and that’s very different from being on the backfoot and having to explain ourselves all the bloody time.
The message is now simple and righteous……. We are not Westminsters to hold, they have nae right, how dare they say that stuff to us,we are the voter’s , we get to choose ….
Liz, you may note that while Gove and Johnson, and others refer to their ‘friends and partners’ in Europe, and the WTO nations, they offer no such eloquent politeness when discussing the rebellious Scots.
They just don’t get it.
They are mere politicians, there to serve the people. What Salmond or Johnson promised matters not one jot.
We, the people actually make the decisions, not some jumped up ephemeral ‘politician’.
We say what happens next, not some Johnny Come Lately millionaire gentleman farmer Tory Boy.
There’s gonna be a Revolution, oh yeah!
Oh I agree Jack…
As I said on Wings… ” Alex and Nicola may have said Once in a Generation” , but I’m no of that opinion my self,and my vote is equal to theirs so two more like me make it a moot point.
Nevertheless the reason Johnston said No,no matter how flimsy or dishonest handed us the new ground to convince people they are in nae voluntary Union and a parliament that is forbidden to hold a vote is no by any stretch of the imagination ” the most powerful devolved parliament in the whole wide word “…… That’s where we keep the conversation this time. No answering stupid currency questions and the like….And they handed us this on a plate…. LOL
Im sure that the highest entity in the Scottish legal system will appear before the Scottish Parliament tomorrow and declare that the treaties and acts of union between Scotland and England have been broken. And that the union between Scotland and England is over and that the two equally sovereign countries will revert back to their respective 1707 borders forthwith. over to you Lord Advocate.
mibbies aye mibbies naw, probably F/A
I hope there’s room on the walls of Bute House. Y’know, to frame that letter.
I think we’ve all commented at one point or another on the arrogance and ignorance displayed by the political class of Westminster. But that letter… THAT was a truly epic example. Your Q.E.D. moment writ large… LITERALLY.
It was also a veritable Trumpian example of trolling your opposition. The letter pretty much boils down to ‘I won’t grant your request because… reasons’ (also – sticks tongue out for effect). Pretty pathetic to be sure as excuses go.
Johnson has just publicly told the population of Scotland that they are effectively a prisoner. That your democracy, your votes, your opinion, doesn’t matter. The import of his statement will sink in to those who voted no reluctantly last time out. I’d say it should also cause more than a little unease to populations across the rest of these islands.
It was, by any measure, anti-democratic in the extreme.
Back to the trolling thing though. Remember this mantra. Don’t get mad, get independence. 😉
To be honest whatever action Nicola takes at the end of the month, I would rather go down fighting and end up defeated knowing we gave ourself a chance, rather than doing absolutely nothing at all and being defeated.
At least then we could hold our head up high.
Craig Murray has the solution – immediate declaration of UDI and let International Law decide the outcome . He makes a very persuasive case – BUT do the SNP have the balls to go for it ?
UDI is not a solution for anything.
If the people of Scotland are sovereign then the last time I looked there were still a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland that wanted to remain part of a Union with England in the United Kingdom.
You win the support of the majority and prove it in a referendum then you declare Independence, there is no shortcut while at least 50% of Scots want to be part of the UK. There’s only a small number that still needs convincing before Yes can claim victory and winning them over should be our goal. Not fantasies that are doomed to failure.
Spot on Thepnr. We get this UDI and resiling the Treaty / ripping up the Treaty and so on constantly. As you say, the bottom line is that we REALLY need to win over X amount of Scots if we want to win this battle. Maybe James Kelly’s polling results will clarify?
There are still FAR too many Scots that are being influenced (frightened off) by Westmonster’s (and the MSM’s) myths relating to our economy, our NHS, education, policing etc. Too many Scots don’t have a clue about Scotland’s wealth, that we’re still swimming in oil, our potentially lucrative renewable energy, the energy grid fiasco etc. In fact many don’t have a clue about how much control Westminster still has over Scottish powers (lack of), what’s reserved / devolved, that NS doesn’t have control over the Councils such as school staffing numbers etc, etc. That’s what we should be focusing on. Getting the basics out there. Time for us to start getting the data, such as the WBB, through the letter boxes.
We should also think of making a list of the facts that we want to get across and start carrying placards to that effect at the AUOB marches. Flags look great and are inspirational, but send out one message only. A real wasted opportunity when we’ve got thousands of people who are potential advertisers, promoters of Scotland. We could also advertise Westminster ”facts” by highlighting the shambles that they’ve made / making of everything that they touch.
Hi Petra
I’ve put a post on this very topic earlier over on Indyref2 site, I would appreciate your input and same goes for any others too.
https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/referendum-or-udi/
Craig Murray is the quintessential activist – he has seen other countries UDI successfully, so obviously believes that Scotland should too. I think this shows that he is wholly out of touch with Scottish people. UDI will not work – you really need a huge majority to go down that route with any confidence – and scots appear to be reluctant nationalists in the main.
There are many paths we can take to keep putting pressure to get the referendum and allow people a legitimate choice – the legal route that’s being crowdfunded now will give us an idea of our legal standing instead of the speculation (if it gets funded). Losing this case, and so declaring Scotland to be a colony, would actually boost the numbers in favour of independence, so whichever way it goes should be useful (unless it gets bogged down).
Scot goes pop’s now funded survey should give us a better idea of numbers (if it’s 80%+ I would be open to UDI strategies!), and we have those weirdo covenant people telling us about blockchains (sorry I’m a polling-booth-bits-of-paper girl), that will allow official numbers to be put to the Scottish government – and if they are toothless or fail, it’s official enough to take to the UN. Not ideal, because we don’t have the debate to convince people, but I think there are people organising things in the right directions – we could do with more things happening just to keep up momentum and keep the State confused (hah), but at least there is action without the madness of UDI. There are at least 50% of Scottish people that would take umbrage to it.
It’s a bit like Norwegian Independence from Sweden that was being discussed in Indy circles. They declared Independence and the had a referendum in which Yes won 99.95% of the vote.
That’s right just about the entire population of Norway who had a vote supported Independence so no wonder they felt comfortable in declaring Independence from Sweden before a vote.
Also, Norway was more or less Independent already, they had their own parliament, army, law, and it was only foreign affairs and the monarchy that was shared. It’s a false equivalence when it comes to Scotlands situation. There is NO comparison, not even a remote one.
Hi there Thepnr. Just working my way through posts right now and it’s getting late. Will visit the Indyref2 site tomorrow to check out your comments.
I always respect your posts Thepnr but that does not mean I always agree.
Some comments for you.
1. Technically, there is no such thing as UDI for Scotland.
2. Do you still think democracy will work when the fundamentals of a democratic nation are not there?
3. How do you know that there were still a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland that wanted to remain in the UK. Where did you look as you say in your post?
That’s the point of a referendum Cubby.
Let the people actually vote and tell you what they want. Don’t assume anything and make any decisions on those assumptions. All the evidence we have at the minute does not justify dissolving the Union if that’s what you’d rather call it instead of UDI.
In fact, all the evidence we have at the minute tells us that people want to remain in the Union. We will not sort this one way or the other without a properly run and supervised referendum, a referendum that most likely would not even be being considered if it wasn’t for the Tories being as inept as they are. You know the rest.
As long as the Britnats have total control of Broadcasting and most of the press how can there ever be a democratic referendum? No free media no democracy.
Aw diddums, that’s us fecked then. Pack up our old kit bags and walk away since we’re never going to win anyway? The only solution then is “Dissolve the Union!”
Is that what you’re saying Cubby?
Surely not, have a bit more faith, you might be surprised where the democratic route might take us. Possibly all the way to our Independence without a drop of blood being spilt.
That’s the route I’ll be walking and I won’t be encouraging those that suggest otherwise as that will absolutely guarantee no Independence in my lifetime. We vote for Independence backed by the majority of those that bother to vote in Scotland or we never become Independent, it really is as simple as that.
The alternative?
Do you remember the pictures from George Square on 19th September after the British Nationalists had won? Multiply that by x100 if you think that the Scottish government can simply dissolve the Union. Nothing is simple, it resulted in a civil war in Ireland and decades of trouble even after Ireland got it’s Independence.
Don’t know about you but I’m not up for any of that, I KNOW FOR SURE we can win through the ballot box. I’ll take that any day of the week even if it stretches my patience to the limit at times.
After 300 odd years why rush? It’s close now so best get it right for this will be the last attempt for a long long time, a generation even and that will be true for once.
Now now Thepnr you should know better than to try to put words into my mouth. I posed questions as you were so sure of your position. So no it is not what I am saying.
Remember all routes to independence will end in the Treaty of Union being dissolved. A democratic route is always the best solution and. I am glad to hear that you are confident it will be achieved in that manner.
You were the one saying there was not presently a majority for independence not me – I just questioned on what basis you made this assertion. I think there probably is but so what – just my opinion just like yours – no evidence.
Anyway thanks for your frank and robust reply. No offence taken whether it was meant or not.
I know for sure that we’re on the same side, good enough for me and all opinions welcome.
”Win the support of the majority ” – how do you know when you have reached that figure ?
A referendum ? Our masters won’t allow that – so what is your plan ?
Haha Millsy, they might be your “masters” but they are not mine and Scotland doesn’t need their permission to hold a referendum. Have a read of this and educate yourself.
Or would you prefer to go ahead with UDI anyway, no matter what and risk the turmoil and violence that is guaranteed afterward?
Fantastic link Thepnr. I’ve never come across that one before and there’s a great deal to take in, so will reread it tomorrow. One thing for sure is that Nicola Sturgeon will be totally conversant with the implications of the “contents” and how to take this, and us, forward now.
One thing that stands out is why Westminster has decided not to have a written constitution, over and above our Scottish legal system ruling it out, and that is that they rely on their legal findings to chop and change the rules as suits.
Things slowly falling into pace Petra. Keep the chin up :o:
Chins up, cap’s off (well never ever had one), just checked and my knees aren’t skint and my heart’s beating in tune with that Scottish independence drum. There’s no, no one, stopping us now, Thepnr, especially not that corrupt bunch of narcissistic Westminster ignoramuses.
Excellent as ever, WGD.
“There was no case for Scotland remaining in the UK made in Johnson’s short letter.”
Exactly. They have no honest arguments; they only have lies.
Brexit and it’s terms are still to hit the undecided. Wee labour Jeanie or Johnnie standing in a longer customs queue at Marbella will turn. The true cost is not known. Any poll should include under 18’s and eu citizens.
However, A major criminal trial is imminent and will get the full attention of the britnats press. It may cause temporary damage but has to be seen out.
The silly hot heads on another blog demand action, walk on BUTE HOUSE says one from the comfort of France, action, action , action. The britnats trolls want us to play our hand.
I am afraid holding our own counsel will be more effective.
A word on Roguish Leotard, Lisa Nandy’s international anti-indy commission and ‘Home Rule’.
Hah! Hahahahahahahahahah (and breathe) Hahahahahahahaha… HAH!
Here’s me thinking that according to Labour, we have the bestest home rule, devo to the max, next best thing to federalism and most fabby onion in the history of the yooniverse ever already.
But apparently not. 🙄
Are not these Britnat diddies in the Scottish parliament always saying it is the devolved parliament with the greatest powers in the Milky Way galaxy or is it the Universe.
Anyway how come Home Rule is being flagged up again along with the federal fairy as the solution to the Scotland problem by British Labour in Scotland if we already have the best in the whole wide world/ galaxy or universe.
Who are these idiots in Scotland – 18% at the Dec GE – that still vote for this joke of a party. Labour is now on its way from an irrelevant party to a joke of a party.
Pretty much Cubby. Anytime Scottish self government becomes a real threat? You can set your watch when it comes to Labour and a rehashed Home Rule statement.
Spooky, but true.
Alister Jackboot said GIRUY Scotland on Sunday and now we have his master Johnson sporting a nice pair of recently licked jackboots ( by Gove and Jack ) also saying GIRUY Scotland.
We’ll soon see what the SNP is made off now. I’ll be writing to my new SNP MP expressing my support and encouragement for an independent Scotland.
Post 31 Jan., Johnson and his team sit down to discuss trade deals with the EU,and If the EU are indeed Scotland’s sympathetic, supportive friend they will ask…
Fishing rights? Oil and gas resources,renewable energy policy, Nato exercises? And where here in attendance,to discuss and agree,are the Scots government representatives?
The USA may well also helpfully e-mail concerning Trident, “Scotland OK with this?”.
We’ve received the expected arrogant brief, childish, reply regarding the S30 from Johnson, time to put that strategy aside and conduct a different approach:-
There is no merit in wearing trainers when the other side is wearing tackety boots.
Nor will a Black gowns, white collars and wigs approach win independence for us.
On 31st January, Scotland’s 48 MPs withdrawing from Westminster and setting up in Holyrood would catch the international attention. A 31st. January AUOB march to Holyrood would help emphasise our resolve.
And then a court case will have blanket coverage, Prince William will announce he wants to be a Queen and the state broadcasting services will blot out our case from radio, TV and press. We need to hold firm.
Did we think it would be easy?🏴
On another WGD article Mogabee4 recently took me to task for saying there were diddies and phoney independence supporters BTL on WOS.
I thought would take a look to see the WOS take on Johnsons reply re sect 30. Sadly the site owners post is more SNP baaadd. Not a great surprise.
I didn’t have to look too far BTL to see an example of the type of diddy I was referring to. A poster stating that Stu was correct that there will be no Indyref2 this year. It’s Jan 14th for goodness sake. This posters main concern seem to be to prove that his guru was correct. Not Scottish independence. Stu is always correct. This is the type of diddy I referred to and I stand by this comment. The usual phoney independence supporters are always there so no need to say any more about them.
I have also noticed the diddies to which you refer Cubby. Some seem to be actively seeking to stir up trouble.
Chubby, has it not occurred to you that WOS ( Rev Stu) plays the role of Devil’s Advocate?
Velofello
There are enough Devils in Scotland with or without their advocates never mind a devils advocate from Bath.
PS as I have said to lizg on a few occassions I am not that chubby.😉
Oi I never do that ………anymore
FGS. Time to waken up to the reality of the situation.
A very interesting Scotland Tonight for a number of reasons.
I missed most of it Cubby. Tuned in to see Jess Philips on the screen, lol. Was that her first ever visit to Scotland? Just wondering what on earth is going on with all of these English Labour wannabe leaders taking an “interest” in Scotland whilst Reclusive Loner seems to have done a runner.
Another Britnat Labour politician popping up to Scotland to tell us that she knows better than us what is good for us. Unbelievable arrogance by Jess Philips. Taking no responsibility for imposing Brexit or Johnson on us.
Earlier on Mike Russell gave hints that they are planning actions. Not going to say much best if possible to see it for yourself as the SNP baaad mob will probably pooh pooh it all as a fantasy.
Also Gove was back on telling us how his family and friends in Scotland want Sturgeon to get on with the day job and stop obsessing about independence. Once again he was allowed to spout his lies not once but twice about once in a generation and Scotgov failing in absolutely everything – except winning elections of course.🤣🤣🤣 All unchallenged. How many friends and family does he have that makes any difference at all.
Oh and Pam Nash SIU was back on to tell us that democracy for Scotland stopped in 2014. You’ve had your referendum Scotland and you aint getting another one.
No
And what happens if every single constitutional method is barred? I don’t think that Scottish nationalists have thought this through
This isn’t Spain. There is no legal bar in the UK on turning the next Holyrood elections into an effective plebiscite on independence.
U huh. And you have checked that with the European commission?
What does the European Commission have to do with it? Whether or not a plebiscite election is legal in the UK is a matter for the UK constitution.
I will save you the bother. It is legal.
My point is you will know is that an environment where Spain has a veto on EU membership then everything has to be done abolutely in accordance with the UK -unwritten+ constitution
feel free to keep deluding yourself if you want that you can do a UTI and not have spain see this as a precedent for Catalonia
“Absolutely in accordance with an unwritten constitution” aye that’s easy to do.
How can you do that?
Spain has a clear written constitution that separation of any part of Spain is illegal. UK nothing at all. Just a 1707 Treaty of Union and a series of laws and conventions none of which forbid or prevent the dissolution of the Treaty of Union 1707.
Try defending the right to imprison Scotland based on that in court.
I sorely get fed up with people equating the Irish and Catalonia situations as equivalent to Scotlands position.
So once again you are posting pish. My words may offend you Brian but your words of pish offend me as well. So I guess that makes us equally offended.
Eh – don’t lecture me on Catalonia please. I lived in Spain for decades, I speak the language fluently. I understand Spanish politics far better than you do.
Spain’s sole concern is that Scottish independence is acheived legally within the UK constitution. A plebiscite election in the UK is perfectly legal – it’s unconstitutional in Spain but not here. A successful result in a plebiscite election would be followed by negotiations with Westminster. It is not UDI.
Spain knows that. Spain also knows that if it blocks Scottish membership of the EU when that independence has been achieved legally within the framework of the UK constitution, then Madrid will have destroyed its own argument against Catalonia.
Spain cannot, on its own, block Scottish accession to the EU. Accession to the EU is by qualified majority and Spain nor any other single country on its own, even Germany, has enough votes to prevent Scottish accession if the rest approve.
True. Maybe. It’s a dice roll. The reality is that Scotland is now facing into a situation which Ireland faced into 100 years ago. I am pretty sure that everybody wants to avoid what happened then. But then you face a question…what price freedom? Not wanting to be a downer but… Up until now this has been rather an intellectual exercise for Scottish Nationals. Things just got real
“Not want to be a downer” funny how you always are aren’t you Brian.
Is the republic so perfect that there is nothing you can be a downer on for your own fellow citizens?
“Intellectual exercise” – away you go and stop talking pish.
Lads…
I understand you’re all hurt but…. Insulting those who are on your side isn’t going to help you in any way
Och, Brian, haven’t you got some homework to correct?
This is now too serious for your whimsy.
In 1916, I’d venture that you’d have been labelled a ‘West Brit’, loyal to the English Crown, terrified to stray ‘beyond the pale’. A member of a comfortable well off Dublin middle class whom the Brit Empire rewarded handsomely to keep your fellow Irish citizens in slavery poverty and subservience to the British Crown. There is a clear and present danger Over There as the Stormont clouds gather.
Look to your own gathering storm.
Nobody’s killing anybody Over Here.
If you don’t want to be insulted stop posting pish. It’s not the first time either you have posted pish.
Can we please not use this blog as a forum to attack one another?
Thank you.
Brian you tell us! All ears!
Scotland’s votes do not count. Unless its to endorse an English party in Scotland. Or (barely) endorse a political union, won with promises that were quite clearly broken. Johnson lied to a Queen. You think he cares about what we think? Of course he doesn’t. His contempt for us is as boundless as his incompetence. But it matters to people who thought the UK was a worth a last chance. It mattered to them. I am not talking about the yoons. Those foaming mouthed idiots are happy to be shat on by tories and shoveled up by Labour. I am talking about people who genuinely believed all the horseshit about the EU. About the NHS. About the economy. About the currency. They are the people we need to win over.
It was up to the unionist parties to honor their pledge to Scotland. They failed. Now we need to show those no voters, that their faith was misplaced.
That the promises about Scotland’s new found powers were a lie.
The the NHS being safe in the union, was a lie
That the economy could only be protected in the UK was a lie.
That our public services could only be safeguarded in the UK was a lie.
That Scotland is in fact not respected in the UK.
The destruction of the labour party in Scotland happened because it stood for union. If the Union was such a sure bet, why wasn’t labour rolling in clover in 2015?
Why should Scotland be a hostage to fortune of the English electorate?
If the SNP do not “speak for Scotland” – then who does? The unionist parties have apathetic if not downright pathetic.
So let Johnson ignore us. Let him insult us. We’ll get busy dismantling the case for union brick by brick. Show up the unionist parties in Scotland for the spineless wretches they are. Mock them…relentlessly. Let Keir Starmer come up and have a fish supper and a drink of diet Irn Bru and let him know, that no, that really isn’t fucking good enough. Ian Murray thinks it was Ok to destroy labour and demand Scotland be Johnson’s victim? Ask if his poke had a pig in it or an IOU one pig note from the tories. Remind them what sticking up for “Union” cost them. Carlaw goes puce when Sturgeon gets him telt at FMQs? Tough. Remind him that he will never be FM. That the only thing his party will ever get to do in Scotland is pass wind. not policy. The Lib Dems? When Rennie stops the UK media from making him look like a right wee fanny, then he can ask to be listened to…but until that day, he can go play with harry potter wizard set. Remind the commentators and WM that the SNP were elected by a majority to speak for Scotland. They can either respect that vote and work with us, or stop pretending and end this farce of a union.
Its ok to get angry. You just have to clever how you direct it. There are limits to what we can do. But we must get involved. Even if it is convincing your old granny that the union isn’t worth it. Not anymore. As for the yoons and the unionist parties and media – channel that anger into outright mockery of their position. Like Mark Twain said, only laughter can blow a colossal humbug to rags and atoms. Boris Johnson does not like getting laughed at. None of them do. Go on the marches. Deliver the leaflets. Talk to undecided friends and colleagues. But remember to rip the absolute pish out the Union.
Agree with all that you said, if we want to be Independent then it’s up to us to persuade enough doubters over to our side. We’re close and mustn’t falter now, if anything work harder I believe the referendum will be sooner than many think.
Well said.
Here’s a thing, nobody knows what “every single constitutional method” to a vote on Independence is. It has yet to be defined, personally, I don’t worry too much about such matters.
I’m more concerned with trying to encourage those that voted No last time to vote YES.
The path to a referendum can not be barred forever, the people of Scotland have the right to decide on how they should be governed and they WILL exercise that right. I can’t say when of course but it is inevitable even Johnson knows that. By the way there is no “constitution” in the UK
Any thoughts on the Bill raised in the HOL to increase the barrier for indy to 60%?
It’s rubbish and anyway it is absolutely the Scottish government who will be setting the terms for the next referendum. I’m 100% certain of that, might take a while but it will be a referendum held under legislation passed by the Scottish Government.
No other kind of referendum is even imaginable to me. Scottish referendum under Scottish law.
At one time I would have agreed that the HOC would never pass such an anti-democratic move but now… I’m not so sure. I think we are dealing with a very different (in a bad way) England than we have before.
To get the Montenegro indy ref., EU/UN mediators accepted a 55% threshold since that was the lowest they could get Serbia to agree to. Luckily the result was something like 55.3%. But if it had been 54.7% where would we have been? The Montenegro PM had said anything above 50% would do regardless of the agreement.
Also worth pointing out that the Kosovo UDI (also from Serbia) was recognised by the UK on day 1, did NOT have a referendum to back it up. Subsequent supplication by the Serbs to the UN/ICJ resulted in the ICJ finding that Kosovo had done nothing illegal with their UDI under international law. Kosovo is now on the pending list for EU membership.
But can we expect as generous terms from England as the Serbian government accepted?
Who knows?
I’m aware of the Montenegro Independence referendum, I read av=bout it in this paper.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2410255
“The Scottish Independence Referendum in an International Context”
Well worth reading Chicmac for an understanding of why Nicola Sturgeon described an Independence referendum with a Section 30 order as the “gold standard”. that’s explained in the first few pages.
So too though are other examples of countries struggles to gain their Independence, all of it worth reading, I wish those that shout the loudest for UDI or dissolving the Union would read this first, they might learn something.
Also here’s the link for what was the referendum bill for what became
LAW ON THE REFERENDUM ON STATE-LEGAL STATUS OF THE REPUBLIC OF MONTENEGRO
https://www.parlament.cat/document/intrade/7234
Worth a browse especially the section relating to media coverage.
Nice to see you around, stay alert Scotland needs Lerts 🙂
Not a chance of survival beyond being tabled, particularly after the Brexit farce..
It’s a private member’s bill in the House of Lords. It’s not going to pass into law.
Not ordinarily but… extraordinary times.
There is an Australian solution which was left field but worked very nicely.
For the last decade in Australia there was a huge ideological split in Australian politics around same sex marriage. Even though the Federal parliament had the power to legislate and present a bill to parliament for legalising and recognising same sex couples had the right to marry. The issue crossed party lines and it was suggested that the parliament hold a conscience vote where all members of the house would vote along with their own ideological position not the party line. (In the Australian parliament it is extremely unusual for parties and MPs to cross the floor) The ruling Liberal Party (misnomer they are actually Tories) would not sanction a conscience vote due to the very powerful Christian factions in their party. There were calls for a referendum but that was also refused and would have required all states in the federation to be unanimous in the outcome in order to amend the constitution to allow the act to gain legitimacy.
So what did they do, they conducted a non binding postal survey/plebiscite run by the bureau of statistics. Everyone on the electoral roll (voting is compulsory in Australia so it’s a complete list of the population) was sent a registered letter complete with a prepaid reply envelope and were asked the question; in favour or not in favour? There was a campaign from both sides of the debate which ran for 3 months. People filled in the forms and posted them back. The Bureau of statistics announced the survey result with more than 80% of respondents in favour of same sex marriage with a response rate of around 90%. This result was so overwhelming that the opposition collapsed and the legislation was pass in the house 3 days later and sent to the senate for approval and the given royal assent by the Governor General (the Queen s rep in Oz) the first couple were legally married in a civil ceremony 3 months later.
Here is an open question to all on Paul’s blog. Does the Scottish Parliament have the power to conduct postal surveys? Even though a positive result for Yes would hold no legal basis a large majority for yes could not be dismissed as just an opinion poll. Please pass this on to Mike Russel if anyone knows him.
My view is that lots more can happen, some of it mentioned by you great ‘diggers’ above.
We will get a vote in May 21 or earlier if indy msp’s resign enmasse. IF a clear majority here is ignored again then we should indeed rebel. Enough is enough.
We should then go for international support and in London block the tube, picket and block Piccadilly. Put out cause in front of England where it cannot be dimmed by the MSM.
UDI is a very last resort. But if we keep being democratic and winning and they keep saying bugger off what choice, eventually do we have.
I have came to the same conclusion, we either pull our mps back from Westminster and declare the Union dead . Violence is what the British state want us to get to. They would revel in it …We must hold the line of democracy, but do all we can to disrupt parliament. Each SNP MP should take turns in disrupting proceedings and forcing British to remove them from parliament by force.
One every day for 48 days, to demonstrate our disgust at the colonial attitude , It’s clear the English parliament see Scotland as a colony and something they own. To be abused and used for the benefit of England.
If the Scottish parliament declare the British state acting as a colonial power , we will have the UN on our side.
I am concerned that someone will do something stupid, if the British state keeps this up.
Unless I’m mistaken my understanding is that all someone has to do is shout out “there are strangers in the house” Then then compels the speaker to clear the chamber. No need to take turns at being expelled.
Kirsty Blackman was interviewed this morning on BBC Breakfast by Naga Munchetty (definitely not a Jo Coburn). Asked of course about LBJ response re. the S30 order and what will happen next. Kirsty put her straight making one valid point, fact, after another including mention of the Smith Commission statement.
I was waiting on NM bringing up the “day job” which didn’t happen, however was hoping that KB if asked would stop trying to justify Nicola Sturgeon’s / the SNP record and just give a curt and concise response to the effect that Holyrood’s record on all counts puts Westminster’s to shame. Or words to that effect. Hammer that ball right back into their court.
…………..
The lawyer for the parents who’s son was killed by a US “diplomats” wife was also interviewed this morning and basically said that Boris Johnston was an absolute disgrace (over and over again) as a leader. They, the devasted parents, had heard via the interview that LBJ gave to the BBC yesterday that he was breaking his promise to them. This will no doubt be par for the course as long as that narcissistic liar remains as PM.
There will be no civil disobedience or UDI in Scotland. People would not agree to it. Scotland has always gone through the Ballot Box and legal methods because it can. Independence will happen because people vote for it. Or it will fail.
‘There will be no bevying or poor behaviour.’ Jimmy Reid brought over by persuasion and rational argument. Like many others, will and could be.
There are many avenues that can be taken through the Courts or persuaded by rational argument. The Demographics are changing and it will happen. People know what happened in the past but cannot predict the future, No one can, but no one can dispute Scotland is on the path to Independence, very soon.
One or two years or tears will not make much difference. Scotland is going it’s own way in any case. It just needs people to vote for it. Support is increasing for the SNP and Independence all the time. The best time to have an Indy Ref is when it can be won.
Imagine if people from Scotland (Scots 10% of the rest pop) resident In the rest of the UK were denied the vote. There would be outrage. Especially from people in Scotland. People can vote how they like as a right. It is secret and personal. 2% each way did not carry the vote. Statistics. More people can and have been persuaded for various reasons. Plain to see by the results of various voting patterns, Without doubt,
There could be a residential qualification in any Referendum. If it was possible and manageable, according to organisational considerations. Logistics might be difficult. So people passing through could not vote. One of two years residential qualification, although that might not be possible logistically. Electoral Roll etc.
The next time a Britnat says you only got 45% of the vote in the GE and that is not a mandate.
Asnswer as follows :
1. Who decides what an acceptable percentage is in a GE for a mandate for a referendum? When did this become relevant?
2..When they say it’s got to be more than 50% to have a mandate for a referendum. Ask who and when was this rule agreed. They will say it is basic democracy – ask them so was >50% achieved for all mandates for referendums in UK history e.g. What was Cameron’s % mandate for the EU ref in 2015.
3. Of course Cameron never got >50% carry out his referendum that will take Scotland out of the EU despite Scotland voting in the EU referendum and every election since to stay in the EU. Cameron got 36% of the vote in 2015. But he got a majority of the seats.
The Britnats have no democratic case to deny Indyref2 they only have lies and saying no no no – Britnats like to say no. Britnats love to lie.
Also worth pointing out to them that polls say 40% of SLAB voters support indy, 20% Story voters and 10% SLibDem voters.
Chic I doubt the figure of 20% of Tory voters supports Independence, more like 5%. I’ll see if I can provide a link for that. By the way, I agree with the 40% figure for Labour voters.
The only Tory I know who claims to support independence is that columnist for the National newspaper called Fry. Of course we all know Tories will do and say anything for money. So I do tend to agree that the figure will be low very low.
And I do know a few Tories.
Well that was worth waiting for eh ?
I bet Dorris was shitting himself at the prospect of Ian Blackford giving him a right going over , my aunt sally would have made a better job of that particular fight.
What’s the f/kn point ,there are more effective and cutting contributors on many indy blogs .